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	<title>Comments on: Skipper of Exodus, The Ship Carrying Holocaust Survivors to Palestine, Dies</title>
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	<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/</link>
	<description>A reasonable voice for Prince William County politics, and the immigration debate</description>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70215</link>
		<dc:creator>Elena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70215</guid>
		<description>Thank you for sharing such an amazing story, one told to you first hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for sharing such an amazing story, one told to you first hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70214</link>
		<dc:creator>Elena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70214</guid>
		<description>Formerly Anon,
I do see your point, that is why, in this time in history, we are required to not wait for hate and fear to build to such a level.  I feel as though it is MY burden to remember so that I won&#039;t ever say, in any given circumstance, if only I had 20/20 hindsight, I would have done things differently.  

That is why the golden rule is the best rule to live by in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Formerly Anon,<br />
I do see your point, that is why, in this time in history, we are required to not wait for hate and fear to build to such a level.  I feel as though it is MY burden to remember so that I won&#8217;t ever say, in any given circumstance, if only I had 20/20 hindsight, I would have done things differently.  </p>
<p>That is why the golden rule is the best rule to live by in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Moon-howler</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70205</link>
		<dc:creator>Moon-howler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70205</guid>
		<description>Formerly, you sound exactly like my mother on this subject.  Actually, I think you make some very valid points, and I am not one of those &#039;my country-right or wrong&#039; kinda people.  Hind sight, it was a hideous decisions.  I think think a boatload of less than a thousand people wouldn&#039;t have upset the applecart,

Every day people seeking political asylum are evaluated.  Some are let in, some aren&#039;t. 

Through post WWII eyes, we did the wrong thing.  Before that...we probably still did the wrong thing but the reasons aren&#039;t quite as dastardly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Formerly, you sound exactly like my mother on this subject.  Actually, I think you make some very valid points, and I am not one of those &#8216;my country-right or wrong&#8217; kinda people.  Hind sight, it was a hideous decisions.  I think think a boatload of less than a thousand people wouldn&#8217;t have upset the applecart,</p>
<p>Every day people seeking political asylum are evaluated.  Some are let in, some aren&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Through post WWII eyes, we did the wrong thing.  Before that&#8230;we probably still did the wrong thing but the reasons aren&#8217;t quite as dastardly.</p>
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		<title>By: Moon-howler</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70131</link>
		<dc:creator>Moon-howler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70131</guid>
		<description>Wow what a story.  They were ruthless.  I can&#039;t imagine not knowing what had become of my family.  I believe I have said this on this blog before.  I often questioned by parents over stuff that happened during the war, especially things that are perhaps seen through different eyes than people of that generation.  My mother told me shortly before she died that I had no idea just how &#039;nip and tuck things were back then and that they didn&#039;t know until it was over that they really were going to win.&#039;  

They always feared invasion.  Once I scoffed at that idea and the lady tore me up verbally.  There are sunken U-boats in the Potomac, off the coast of New Jersey, and German frog men landed in New York.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow what a story.  They were ruthless.  I can&#8217;t imagine not knowing what had become of my family.  I believe I have said this on this blog before.  I often questioned by parents over stuff that happened during the war, especially things that are perhaps seen through different eyes than people of that generation.  My mother told me shortly before she died that I had no idea just how &#8216;nip and tuck things were back then and that they didn&#8217;t know until it was over that they really were going to win.&#8217;  </p>
<p>They always feared invasion.  Once I scoffed at that idea and the lady tore me up verbally.  There are sunken U-boats in the Potomac, off the coast of New Jersey, and German frog men landed in New York.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolverine</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70125</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolverine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70125</guid>
		<description>Moon-howler, I think you have hit upon something critical in your last para of #34.  Europe became truly a place of &quot;sauve qui peut&quot;  --- for non-French speakers that&#039;s &quot;Save yourself if you can.&quot;  It was not just Jews who were running for their lives.

I once had a female friend who was a non-Jewish Czechoslovak.  When the Germans took over Prague, one of her uncles went over to the partisans.  As she told it, that family and extended family lived in mortal fear every minute of every day.  And then the Gestapo found them.  First they took the uncle&#039;s  immediate family.  The rest of the family fled their homes.  My friend and her parents could find no shelter except among the tombstones inside a Catholic church--- yep, just like in &quot;The Sound of Music.&quot;  Only in this instance the Gestapo found them there too.  My friend was one of the few in the family who escaped.  She was later taken in by strangers and kept safe.  The day she told me this story, she had no idea whatsoever of what had happened to the rest of her family.  Every day that I remember her story, I look with greater fondness on that red, white, and blue banner flapping in the breeze at our local war memorial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moon-howler, I think you have hit upon something critical in your last para of #34.  Europe became truly a place of &#8220;sauve qui peut&#8221;  &#8212; for non-French speakers that&#8217;s &#8220;Save yourself if you can.&#8221;  It was not just Jews who were running for their lives.</p>
<p>I once had a female friend who was a non-Jewish Czechoslovak.  When the Germans took over Prague, one of her uncles went over to the partisans.  As she told it, that family and extended family lived in mortal fear every minute of every day.  And then the Gestapo found them.  First they took the uncle&#8217;s  immediate family.  The rest of the family fled their homes.  My friend and her parents could find no shelter except among the tombstones inside a Catholic church&#8212; yep, just like in &#8220;The Sound of Music.&#8221;  Only in this instance the Gestapo found them there too.  My friend was one of the few in the family who escaped.  She was later taken in by strangers and kept safe.  The day she told me this story, she had no idea whatsoever of what had happened to the rest of her family.  Every day that I remember her story, I look with greater fondness on that red, white, and blue banner flapping in the breeze at our local war memorial.</p>
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		<title>By: Moon-howler</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70096</link>
		<dc:creator>Moon-howler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70096</guid>
		<description>Holocaust Museum information on the &lt;em&gt;St. Louis&lt;/em&gt;:

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/stlouis/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holocaust Museum information on the <em>St. Louis</em>:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/stlouis/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/stlouis/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Formerly Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70085</link>
		<dc:creator>Formerly Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70085</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a little confused.  I never said that the US did not eventually find out about the Nazi plans to exterminate the Jews and other &#039;undesirable&#039; (in their eyes) people.  I was commenting that people who claim that turning away the St. Louis in May of 1939 was  &#039;a stain on our history&#039;  are applying a far too much hindsight.  The Europe of May, 1939 was much, much different than the Europe of 1942, 1943 or later.  Germany hadn&#039;t even invaded Poland yet, and while everybody knew that the Jews were being discriminated against, there is a huge difference between the ghettos of the late 30&#039;s (although again, the famous Warsaw ghetto didn&#039;t even exist yet.) and the death camps that were to come in 1943.

In 1939, the US was still in a perilous economic situation.  With no knowledge of the Holocaust to come, it is unrealistic to expect any people to accept a large number of refugees who at the time were only fleeing discrimination and economic privation.  Having national quotas for people &#039;likely to become a public charge&#039; is not unreasonable during the Great Depression when you had millions of your own citizens needing food, shelter and jobs.

By 1943 when we did know that the Nazi&#039;s were trying to exterminate the Jews, we were already up to our neck in World War II.  The &#039;should we have bombed the railroads&#039; debate has been hashed over endlessly by people who know far more about the subject than you or I.  You can argue the merits of which course of action would have saved more lives (prosecute the war to the fullest or divert resources to try to save the Jews) but a debate over the effectiveness of tactics is very different than &#039;a stain on our history&#039; and can only be done with hindsight.  (For the record, I would argue that slowing the Third Army&#039;s advance into the Ruhr in the fall of 1944 cost the lives of more Jews by prolonging the war than the 900 people on board the St. Louis, 254 of whom would eventually die in the Holocaust.)

Yes, we did give visas for people of particular distinction to enter the US.  That&#039;s just common sense.  If you have a world renown physicist or artist who wants to immigrate, any country would take them.  But the St. Louis was not filled with physicists and artists.  It was filled with ordinary people with little to no means, something there was no shortage of anywhere in the world in 1939.

With hindsight, it is unfortunate that the passengers of the St. Louis did not find refuge in the US or anywhere else, but that is because of actions of the Nazis in the 1940s, not because of any action of the US.  To claim otherwise seems to me to be looking too hard to find a mote in the eye of the US while ignoring the planks strewn across Europe at the time.  Read what we did do:

1. Telephone records show discussion of the situation by Secretary of State Cordell Hull and Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, members of President Franklin D. Roosevelt&#039;s cabinet, who tried to persuade Cuba to accept the refugees.

2. The Coast Guard was not ordered to turn away the refugees, but the US did not make provision for their entry. Efforts to persuade the Canadian government to accept the St. Louis also failed.

3. US officials worked with England and European nations to find refuge for the travelers in Europe. The ship returned to Europe docking at Antwerp, Belgium. The United Kingdom agreed to take 288 of the passengers who disembarked and traveled to the UK by other steamers. After much negotiation by Schröder, the remaining 619 passengers were allowed to disembark at Antwerp; 224 were accepted by France, 214 by Belgium, and 181 by the Netherlands. They appeared to be safe from Hitler’s persecution. 

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis

And that is a &#039;stain on our history&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little confused.  I never said that the US did not eventually find out about the Nazi plans to exterminate the Jews and other &#8216;undesirable&#8217; (in their eyes) people.  I was commenting that people who claim that turning away the St. Louis in May of 1939 was  &#8216;a stain on our history&#8217;  are applying a far too much hindsight.  The Europe of May, 1939 was much, much different than the Europe of 1942, 1943 or later.  Germany hadn&#8217;t even invaded Poland yet, and while everybody knew that the Jews were being discriminated against, there is a huge difference between the ghettos of the late 30&#8217;s (although again, the famous Warsaw ghetto didn&#8217;t even exist yet.) and the death camps that were to come in 1943.</p>
<p>In 1939, the US was still in a perilous economic situation.  With no knowledge of the Holocaust to come, it is unrealistic to expect any people to accept a large number of refugees who at the time were only fleeing discrimination and economic privation.  Having national quotas for people &#8216;likely to become a public charge&#8217; is not unreasonable during the Great Depression when you had millions of your own citizens needing food, shelter and jobs.</p>
<p>By 1943 when we did know that the Nazi&#8217;s were trying to exterminate the Jews, we were already up to our neck in World War II.  The &#8217;should we have bombed the railroads&#8217; debate has been hashed over endlessly by people who know far more about the subject than you or I.  You can argue the merits of which course of action would have saved more lives (prosecute the war to the fullest or divert resources to try to save the Jews) but a debate over the effectiveness of tactics is very different than &#8216;a stain on our history&#8217; and can only be done with hindsight.  (For the record, I would argue that slowing the Third Army&#8217;s advance into the Ruhr in the fall of 1944 cost the lives of more Jews by prolonging the war than the 900 people on board the St. Louis, 254 of whom would eventually die in the Holocaust.)</p>
<p>Yes, we did give visas for people of particular distinction to enter the US.  That&#8217;s just common sense.  If you have a world renown physicist or artist who wants to immigrate, any country would take them.  But the St. Louis was not filled with physicists and artists.  It was filled with ordinary people with little to no means, something there was no shortage of anywhere in the world in 1939.</p>
<p>With hindsight, it is unfortunate that the passengers of the St. Louis did not find refuge in the US or anywhere else, but that is because of actions of the Nazis in the 1940s, not because of any action of the US.  To claim otherwise seems to me to be looking too hard to find a mote in the eye of the US while ignoring the planks strewn across Europe at the time.  Read what we did do:</p>
<p>1. Telephone records show discussion of the situation by Secretary of State Cordell Hull and Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, members of President Franklin D. Roosevelt&#8217;s cabinet, who tried to persuade Cuba to accept the refugees.</p>
<p>2. The Coast Guard was not ordered to turn away the refugees, but the US did not make provision for their entry. Efforts to persuade the Canadian government to accept the St. Louis also failed.</p>
<p>3. US officials worked with England and European nations to find refuge for the travelers in Europe. The ship returned to Europe docking at Antwerp, Belgium. The United Kingdom agreed to take 288 of the passengers who disembarked and traveled to the UK by other steamers. After much negotiation by Schröder, the remaining 619 passengers were allowed to disembark at Antwerp; 224 were accepted by France, 214 by Belgium, and 181 by the Netherlands. They appeared to be safe from Hitler’s persecution. </p>
<p>from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis</a></p>
<p>And that is a &#8217;stain on our history&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Moon-howler</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70080</link>
		<dc:creator>Moon-howler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70080</guid>
		<description>To refuse the passengers of the &lt;em&gt;St. Louis &lt;/em&gt;entry into the United States is simply shameful.  

As for knowledge of atrocities during the war, I don&#039;t know what could have been done.  Perhaps that is where this discussion should head.  What could allied forces done differently during the war to help victims of the Holocaust?  

Most Nations were fighting for their very existence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To refuse the passengers of the <em>St. Louis </em>entry into the United States is simply shameful.  </p>
<p>As for knowledge of atrocities during the war, I don&#8217;t know what could have been done.  Perhaps that is where this discussion should head.  What could allied forces done differently during the war to help victims of the Holocaust?  </p>
<p>Most Nations were fighting for their very existence.</p>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70077</link>
		<dc:creator>Elena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70077</guid>
		<description>Wolverine,
I just recently read an amazing book based on the courage of a Nanny (Christian), having promised her charges Jewish mother on her deathbed, SHE would take on the role of adopted mother to keep the young boy safe from the death camps.  She kept her promise and that boy is alive today, living in America.   The other incredible part of that story was how an SS oficer, married to a Jewish woman, had the good sense to send their only daughter to Palestine as the war broke out.  His wife was eventually murdered by the gestapo because he refused to divorce her as was the &quot;law&quot; at that time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolverine,<br />
I just recently read an amazing book based on the courage of a Nanny (Christian), having promised her charges Jewish mother on her deathbed, SHE would take on the role of adopted mother to keep the young boy safe from the death camps.  She kept her promise and that boy is alive today, living in America.   The other incredible part of that story was how an SS oficer, married to a Jewish woman, had the good sense to send their only daughter to Palestine as the war broke out.  His wife was eventually murdered by the gestapo because he refused to divorce her as was the &#8220;law&#8221; at that time.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolverine</title>
		<link>http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/12/29/skipper-of-exodus-the-ship-carrying-holocaust-survivors-to-palestine-dies/#comment-70069</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolverine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.antibvbl.net/?p=3220#comment-70069</guid>
		<description>I think that many of the Jews caught on earlier than others --- early enough to get all those children out to Great Britain before the curtain of war fell on Europe.  What a story of courage and perseverance that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that many of the Jews caught on earlier than others &#8212; early enough to get all those children out to Great Britain before the curtain of war fell on Europe.  What a story of courage and perseverance that is.</p>
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