AntiBVBL

Also, slated for tonight in Manassas City Hall at 7 is a Town Hall meeting
featuring, I’m told, Bob Marshall, Jackson Miller, Chuck Colgan and other
state representatives.
The public is invited.

PR, when was this Town Hall planned? How disappointing that both are scheduled for tonight.

Thanks, Poor Richard. I called the clerk’s office at the City this morning to get details. Our new Neighborhood Leaders Group in the city was supposed to meet at the Georgetown South Community Center tonight at 7 pm — we’re headed to City Hall instead. Thank goodness for this blog.

Lafayette, in answer to your question – I don’t know. That would be a good
question for someone to ask tonight.

CindyB, glad you and the other leaders got the information.

(Mayor Parrish mentioned it in his opening comments last night at the
city council meeting).

“Maybe it has nothing to do with Prince William County” maybe, but maybe it has everything to do with Prince William County elected officials, tough to be in Manassas when you’re required to be at the McCoart Center.

Well, Corey does bring quite a baggage train with him as well as a propensity to make unfortunate statements. Last weeks diatribe (only the most recent) where he again laid the blame for transportation issues solely at the feet of those in Richmond would have been enough for me to manipulate the calendar to ensure that he had a scheduling conflict. Just once I wish someone from Richmond would have the stones to reply “And you approved those developments on/in (Linton Hall, Route 15, Gainesville, Dominion Valley, etc.) when and were the roads in place or funded when you did?”

Moon-howler :That thought has crossed several of our minds, Mom. In fact, it was one giant mind blast over in the western outskirts around 10 am this morning. I think we are all on to something.

Yes, it was. I hope someone will ask WHEN the Town Hall was planned. I will be watching and/or participating in the “Third Battle of Manassas”.

Moon & Mom,
Maybe, just maybe the state representatives have a western and an eastern end Town Hall planned for the county residents. Anyone know?

oops when the Town Hall(please,fix, moon)

Mom, I didn’t see your “bus tour”(from November thread) listed on the 9 day event schedule. Will you be funding it yourself?

Of course an old ploy is to have a “meeting” and just tell the people that you
want to be there.

Just saying.

Smoke and mirrors, Marty wasn’t confused at all and his comments concern me.

Typical Marty, restate the obvious, restate what he said last week, garner some “face time”, just my cynical take.

Flow chart is easy:

1. County Sesquicentennial Group (CVB, Park Service, Historic Commission, Towns, etc.)
(already funded in the FY09-10 budget, funds appropriated but not allocated)

2. Creston Owens Group/Everybody else
Not funded by anybody but the City of Manassas, seeking funds from everyone to provide in its essence a dubplicate administrative role just without those annoying strings that come attached to provisions to ensure open government.

3. PWC BOCS
Principal funding authority and overseer for Party 1
Targeted patsy for Party 2

Mom, excellent work! Thanks, I think many could benefit from your flow chart.

BTW- I don’t think your comment earlier was just your cynical take. Your comments are very similar(one time exact same words) to the ones exchanged between me and the Mr. last night.

I agree, the flow chart is easy to follow:

1. County Sesquicentennial Group (CVB, Park Service, Historic Commission, Towns, etc.) are trying to protect their public jobs, teas, roundtables and torchlight tours — see public jobs without any real concern for history or the County – see public jobs – and are busy making sure they are taken care of first at the public trough. It is insulting that the staff report was prepared by anything but disinterested staff. Talk about public corruption!

2. Creston Owens Group is asking for less than the above in one time public funds to seed a long-term commitment to do annual and recurring large scale, spectator events that will appeal to a much, much larger audience and bring in more tourists to support business and raise significant non-tax funds to fund our historical assests. I mean what an asshole, He’s offerred do the work that noone was or is now suggesting that they can do for free, help the County and local business and reduce/diversify some of our tax burden through a non-profit. We need more such assholes!

3. PWC BOCS — responsible to other than local jealous bureaucratic control dowagers and who have an obligation to try to diversify our revenue stream to meet already unmet funding needs.

4. Based on the reaction to Owen’s efforts, the public agency’s lack of overt support for it (with the exception of the Manassas Museum) and the reluctance of the BOCS to move forward on this, I have no choice but to oppose any future purchases or expansions of such assets by the County unless the purchase price and long term sources of private capital and operating costs are secured first.

Can someone say Sour Grapes? I dont think name calling (A–holes comment above) is required in an open discussion. I think you have shown your true colors by reverting to name calling etc.. Very sad

@Mom
Mon, an EXCELLENT summary! I love the “…without those annoying strings…” observation.

I’m guessing this was a “done deal” until citizens started making observations like that and others perhaps giving our BOCS pause. City, State and Federal $$$ depend on what the County does. Let’s hope they don’t become the patsy’s you mention (because that would make us the ultimate losers… it’s OUR money!)

@PWC taxpayer
Re, “…Based on the reaction to Owen’s efforts, the public agency’s lack of overt support for it (with the exception of the Manassas Museum) and the reluctance of the BOCS to move forward on this…” There’s a message there.

I’m sure you’re a wonderful human being with some insight that perhaps we are missing (and I mean this with the greatest respect); however, I like the message that the “rest of the world” is conveying. What no one has mentioned to date is that the County Sesquicentennial Group is FULL of volunteers with good ideas, energy, and enthusiasm… and they don’t mind (I love this line) “…those annoying strings…” that come with Government oversight of (I love saying this) OUR money.

@Moon-howler
As usual, well said, M-h.

I’ve not seen a single person say one bad word about Mr. Owen. We simply are not willing to just play Santa Claus at this current time. There really is limited information available and all parties need time to digest it all to make a wise and well informed decision. That’s all were saying.

I think we ALL agree tourism dollars are good for PWC. However, the county simply is not properly prepared/equipped/staffed for this “influx of tourists” some hope to have have for years to come. We must remember this event is a once in a lifetime event. We must commemorate July 21-22,1861. However, we must fiscally responsible while doing so.

Take a look at the list of events. I got this link from Mr. Owen’s group’s website.
http://www.manassascivilwar.org/planned-events/
16 events planned for the City of Manassas and 20 for PWC. Three of those 20 are for reenactments wich will disturb the “hollowed grounds”. If you look closely at the events you will see the tax dolllars will be rolling into the City of Manassas because they will be hosting a carnival and vendors. No vendors listed for the county sites. There’s also, a ball in the city and one in the county. Please, take a look at what your tax dollars are going towards.

@Lafayette
So good… I wish I said it, Lafayette!

Thank you, Opinion.

Here’s some more thoughts on the scheduled events. I hope people actuallly open their eyes read it and think about why is the county being asked for so much while the money making events in terms of tax dollars go to the city. The city will NOT be sharing it’s tax money with PWC just because they contributed $250K. grrr.

I’ve been think some more about Mr. Owen’s presentation last week. I recall him saying they were history preservation and education. I understand tours can be educational at such historic sites, but where are the educational events?

@Lafayette
The report on yesterday’s agenda states that there will be eduational days at the Battlefield in April of 2010 and 2011 and also a grant to the Battlefield and Stonewall Middle School. That is all that I cpuld find on education. I can’t cut and past it because I only have the adobe reader but the link is at the top of this thread.

clueless,
I know about the Stonewall Middle project. I posted the link here yesterday. I’m fully in favor of that project it was a success in Harper’s Ferry. I’m just saying what other activities that Mr. Owen’s group might be facilitating/organizing based on what was on the 9 day event schedule. I hope there’s more for our county students than the Stonewall Middle project. Will the schools be studying this historic date any in 2011? Would there be an adult educational events? I’m just trying to find out what exactly we are supposed to be getting for that $250K investment.

I posted it on the other two threads. All of these thread are getting as confusing as all the group names involved.

Lafayette November 13th, 2009 at 09:09 | #6 Reply | Quote Here’s a link to the presentation to the PWBOS called “Of the Students, By the Students, For the Students”. They show what the students did for Harper’s Ferry and their celebration of the 150th Anniversary.
http://pwcgov.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=275
I really hope they get the grant money and partner with the county for this project. If this project moves forward they would also do the same for the Second Battle of Manassas. They are some requirements for the grant money based free/reduced lunches and Stonewall Middle would be the school to work on this project. The National Park Service will certainly be promoting the Anniversary, and they had a very postive responses to the Hollowed Ground project.

@Moon-howler
Stonewall project has NOTHING to do with VCWE, Inc. (Mr. Owen’s group).

@Lafayette
The picture function is way over my head. I can cut and past links though. I do not think the educational days at the Battlefield are from his group either. They are stated on the County report. I am not sure how many sixth graders there are in the County but it has to be in the thousands.

The report also listed a number of lectures in the County on Civil War topics for 2010. These could be considered adult education. I can’t find a listing though. These are also not Mr. Owen’s group. They are iether the County’s or the local committee’s.

@clueless
Thanks, clueless. More proof let’s stick with the County and the local committee’s plan for now. I do consider the lectures educational, but again..not Owen’s group.

The proposed Sesquicentennial might become more realistic than folks
had planned.

Several speakers at the Manassas meeting asked our delegates to return
to Richmond and demand the right of Virginia to nullify Federal law under
the 10th admendment. The names of Senator John C. Calhoun of South
Carolina and President Andrew Jackson were mentioned more than once.

Keep your rifle at the ready and stay tuned. This might become
interesting.

OK. I went and checked the individual middle school web sites and the County had about 5,300 6th graders at the end of the last school year. I had to average the reported school populations by the three grades so it is probably off but not by much. If you include Manassas and Manassas Park I would think the number of students going to the Battlefield, and presumably studying the battle is about 6,000.

I am assuming 6th graders are mentioned due to SOL’s but am not sure. That is a lot of children and it looks like it is already underway. What an opportunity for our school children.

Opinion, thank you, you’ve done a yeoman’s job getting down in the weeds with regard to numbers, impact and unintended consequences. I couldn’t have written it better myself and quite frankly haven’t had the time to engage in the level of discourse I would like to.

I agree, this probably was a “done deal” until citizens started to question the expenditure. That those questions have been raised on platforms as disparate as this one and the one of which we shall not speak is telling in that the concerns are more widespread than one ordinarily finds in PWC. Glad to see almost everyone (except for some Chamber member(s) who post here) generally agrees with regard to concerns about cost, impact and necessity. Last clues to it having been (note the past-tense) a done deal, Marty’s tepid defense, his acquiesence to delaying further consideration and Corey biting his lip.

@clueless
Once upon a time we were actually taught Prince William County History. I really think this should still be taught. Our students due indeed have an opportunity here when 2011 gets here. I still think it’s a shame that the granted to Stonewall Middle was based on free lunches. I would’ve like to have seen all middle schools competed for the project.

“We believe the Constitution and the Bill of Rights clearly state
the limited powers of our federal government and we seek
to use all lawful means to restrain govermental actions
to conform within its limited powers”.
10th Admendment Association

oops. that the PROJECT was granted to Stonewall…..

PR or Cindy,
Did anyone inquire at last night’s Town Hall as to when the Town Hall was scheduled? Or hear the answer?

@Mom
Mom, you’re welcome.

I have come to appreciate just how important anti-BVBL is to Northern Virginia. While its original purpose is perhaps “lost in the fog of time”, it now gives voice to Prince William County citizens to discuss in real time those issues that matter to us. You have re-defined news into information sharing and dialog. We no longer read about what happened, we discuss what is happening. We no longer live with the decisions of others, we influence and shape those decisions. We give new meaning to the term “transparent Government” by taking away the cover from those we elect or from those who would exploit the Governance process for personal gain. You bring light to the deals made in the shadows, the back rooms, the dark restaurants or out of public view. You provide a service that we really need, make our County a better place to live, and force our Government to be more accountable. There is no longer any place for our elected officials to hide. You do all this while keeping a civil tone amongst your participants. At the end of the day, we may perhaps learn from one another and occasionally agree to disagree.

Thank you, anti-BVBL, its administrators, and to our most gracious host and facilitator, Moon-howler. Of you added a tip box, I’d drop a dime in now and then.

That’s just my opinion.

This whole Sesquicentennial Celebration discussion was really hard to follow until Mom shared her flowchart Like Opinion, I liked the observation:

…without those annoying strings that come attached to provisions to ensure open government.

That resonated so much that I had to go to the Virginia Civil War Events website to see what was going on. There’s one thing folks need to think about. The last line of VCWE’s ABOUT US tab http://www.virginiacivilwarevents.org/about is, “100% of our net proceeds will go to historical preservation, education, and civil war commemoration.” I assume we all are familiar with the term “net proceeds” and what it means. For a non-profit, this usually means proceeds after expenses and fees deducted for managing the organization. In a volunteer organization, the gross to net should ideally be close to 100%; however, one could comply with the above statement while spending 99% of its contributions on expenses and fees (on a professional fundraiser, for example.) One could also work the non-profit for the free; however, if the volunteer also owned a company that volunteer could quite legally spend expenses and fees on that company. (I guess there’s an argument this is good for the economy; however, I’m not sure if that’s an issue in play here).

Hypothetically (I really don’t know the principals in this case), if one were on the BOD of a non-profit working for free and owned a marketing company (for example – one of the more obvious conflicts), one could spend contributions collected by a non-profit on that company to market whatever cause the non-profit was established to support. There’s nothing necessarily “wrong” with this; however, there is an obvious potential for a conflict of interest should this scenario occur. If a non-profit collects its fees from the public, such an arrangement might go unnoticed. If a non-profit asks for Government money (and from what I have read, Virginia Civil War Events appears to be driven by Government money), a bit of due diligence is in order to “follow the money” in the interest of the taxpayers. A review of this group’s business plan to evaluate their estimate of expenses as a percentage of gross fees, estimated net that will actually be spent on the Sesquicentennial, and how they plan to spend Government money is a fair due diligence question.

I share this because it appears Virginia Civil War Events has based its future on asking that money be taken from public groups responsible to our elected officials and subject to oversight to a private group with no such oversight. I believe someone suggested that work such as this should really be awarded as a contract by County Government. That’s a good idea. Other Governmental agencies could funnel contributions to the selected group through the County contract ensuring oversight of their (“our”) investment. It would appear from their website this group was just established this year. They have no obvious past performance or experience in the work that they are requesting (that I could find, at least – I’ll admit I limited my interest to their website).

Considering the fiscal pressure on Government at all levels for performance these days, the County and State should spend its precious treasure on the best qualified to do this work (if it is in fact necessary – another issue I see discussed here quite a bit. I’m agnostic on that issue) . This work should be awarded based on competition so contract oversight and regular review would ensure that we get the most “bang for the buck”. A non-competitive award only ensures that the money will be spent, not that we will get the best deal. A non-competitive award would also take away any incentive to discount expenses and fees due to competitive pressure. There would be no pressure for (what those of us from the Federal Government call) a “Best and Final” offer. I guess, as a taxpayer, I’m a fan of “…those annoying strings…” because history (and the Washington Post) tells us what tends to happen when they are cut.

This is all quite hypothetical. I’m sure the folks at Virginia Civil War Events welcome discussions such as this because the answers only makes their case stronger. I assume they are a group of dedicated Prince William County citizens who really want the County to have a great Sesquicentennial like the rest of us. I wish them luck; however, (like lots of other folks on this blog) I question the diversion of taxpayer money from public groups under Government oversight to a private non-profit. I can only assume they considered simply volunteering their time and talent to one of the existing groups to accomplish their goals but decided not to for whatever reason.

I hope my post wasn’t too long. Great website, by the way. I’m “hooked”.

It is becoming apparent that plans for the Sesquicentennial celebration may
have to be scaled back due not to lack of merit and value, but lack of dollars.

Manassas has allocated money, but not spent it. If PWC and the
Commonwealth select to provide a reduced financial contribution,
I trust the city will reduce its amount in proportion.

@Poor Richard
Certainly agree, Poor Richard. Another word for “scaled back” is “reality”. Sometimes (to quote my favorite Rolling Stones song), “…You can’t always get what you want
And if you try sometime you find You get what you need.”

I’ll have that stuck in my head all day now… not the worst fate.

@El Quapo
So, I guess you’re saying because they mentioned “net” they are telling us that there will be “expenses and fees” (not that there’s anything wrong with that)?”

By the way, what’s a “Quapo”?

@Opinion
To answer your questions:

First question: Yes.

Second question: While the actual meaning of Quapo (or El Quapo) is lost to history, two prevailing theories exist among linguists.

The first is that El Quapo refers to a mythical gray wolf that lives in the mountains of Pico de Orizaba, Popocatepetl, Iztaccihuatl and the Nevado de Toluca volcano. He only comes out when a full moon is covered by clouds to dispense justice for the defenseless and exploited peasants with his massive claws and sharp teeth. He has the intelligence of a man, the wisdom of a woman, the strength of a lion, and is immortal.

The second possible meaning is that it might refer to a small ugly bird that lives in cranberry bogs in upper Canada (now probably extinct due to the automation of the cranberry harvesting business).

I don’t really care which meaning people chose, I just like the letter “Q

I agree, I thought El Quapo did a good job laying out the concerns with funding any non-public agency/group providing public services without getting into the question of the events themselves or their value to the community. We must have a number of examples of for-profits an non-profits providing public services in the County – from taxis to what?

Given the concern, has anyone seen something that suggests that VCWE is opposed to oversight, due diligence or transparancy? Public private partnerships like this are nothing new and do not require competitive bidding even at the Federal level. MOUs exist for this kind of thing. An audit is also appropriate, but until recently that has not been the focus of the conversation; its been about bringing in more tourists, competition with the other public agencies and frankly the value of the reenactments that are designed to bring in those tourists. My concern that the County and local business need the revenue that can be generated by these events without risking significant public funding, the development of a much more realistic stage for a long term effort to stimulate real local tourism spend and the opportunity to shift public funding of historical assets to VCWE funding has been largely dismissed as psycho talk.

I remind you that the commemoration activiites will not be free. County agencies have already requested an initial $500,000 supplemental that deserves the same level of transparancy and oversight. The BOCS mtg of the 8th also made it clear that this is not the last request It too deserves a review to see what are the most cost effective investments the County can make – to include potential ROIs.

I read and read, but have yet to be convinced that any real bump in tourism should be expected from the events proposed by the other interested groups. If you want a commemoration for the few local elites – that is you perogative, but I do not see any effort on the part of the competing groups to do a larger Nascar Civil War event for the rest of us and, as a taxpayer, I continue to view that as an opportunity lost – one we can ill afford.

@PWC taxpayer
You know, PWC Taxpayer, “I read and read, but have yet to be convinced that any real bump in tourism should be expected from the events proposed by the other interested groups.” is a very subjective judgment call.

I really don’t know the answer; however, I do know that I have faith in our Chairman, most of the Prince William County Supervisors, and the many volunteers who make up those other interested groups. I know a few of those volunteers. They have successful records of service to Prince William County both in community activities and appointed positions. Many of the folks who make up those groups of which you speak are appointed by their respective Supervisor. Some might say is an insult to these folks to discount their contribution or vision for this event. Others might say its presumptuous not to volunteer for these existing groups to bring the ideas you imply are missing to the table vice attempting to take their budget and start over. To imply that their vision of the celebration is any less than the VCWE’s strikes me as a bit arrogant. There are many residents who want to celebrate this event respectively on a modest scale recognizing the problems with our budget. I am one of those residents.

Honoring our war dead doesn’t have to be about the money. In fact, some might consider this entire discussion a bit disrespectful. Does anyone know how many Veterans serve on our BOCS or on the BOD for this group we are always talking about? That’s not intended as an insult or any type of slight… I am just curious if a veterans perspective is reflected in honoring our war dead. The VFW, American Legion, Amvets, Vietnam vets, and other groups should be asked to participate in the planning (my apologies if they are already at the table). These folks show up. If you want good ideas about honoring our war dead demonstrating proper respect… I would suggest this is where you start.

If our Chairman and Supervisors believe that they have appointed the wrong people, implemented or supported the wrong organizations, established the wrong vision for their volunteers, or have made major mistakes in their oversight to date… they should correct their mistakes, fix the existing system and if they really have performed that poorly… resign. I would rather close this event with a balanced set of County books than take a chance that could put Prince William County on the long list of cities still paying for adventures that never quite paid off as promised.

Our Chairman and County Supervisors have the holiday to think about it. I assume at least some of them read this blog. I might suggest folks who have an opinion “cut and paste” from this blog and send information that reflects their point of view (from either perspective) to their respective Supervisor perhaps copying our Chairman as input to the decision process.

I think I’ll take a look at these groups and sign up for one. How about you PWC Taxpayer? If you don’t like what these folks are doing, go inside the tent and change things. I wonder why more people don’t.

I just checked the Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee web site and the Virginia Civil War events web site. Not a single veterans group involved in a celebration for fallen soldiers. That… we need to fix.

THEY (the Veterans groups I mentioned in my previous post) know how to commemorate our fallen… and THEY know how to do it right.

You know, after thinking about this, I really don’t find the idea of turning a memorial to the men who fell on the Manassas Battlefield into a circus all that appealing. All of the conversation is about money… how much… from whom… how can we get it. This isn’t about money, it’s about the men who fought on this sacred ground.

I know this particular idea will go nowhere; however, as a veteran I would vote for a simple, dignified ceremony commemorating the fallen and the loved ones who waited in vain. As El Quapo said (l liked the bird story, personally) let the VFW and the American Legion handle it. They won’t be in it for the money. A single bugler playing taps as the sun sets flanked by the colors of the North and South and perhaps the battle flags of the units involved just might be enough. A military chaplain might say a few words. Invitations to descendents would be a nice touch. I would suggest that all active duty servicemen & women, Veterans and their families be invited and the focus of any attention paid to the living. Banning tourists completely or keeping them at a respectable distance might just be appropriate.

It whole episode reminds me of people who went to executions for entertainment. We have a comprehensive plan that actually serves our citizens, plans for orderly growth, and is in flight. It mentions nothing about tourism. I see no reason to make a 180 degree change in course to turn this solemn occasion into entertainment for the tourists while taking our County a different direction.

That’s just my opinion

The wolf it is, H-h!

@Moon-howler

Sons of Confederate Veterans and Sons of Union Veterans would probably produce a pretty good list to start with. Also, there’s an organization that provides records of those who served on either side. I would be interested in the mailing list of who requested records. I’m sure there are more ideas.

In addition to being a perhaps more fitting memorial, it would save the County a bundle! Spend enough to cover parking, porta-potties, etc and perhaps a fresh batch of county maps and brochures. All of our investments in “Tourism” are like investments in a slot machine. We all hope we win; however, the odds are just not there that we walk away with more than we brought.

You know, war really isn’t a spectator sport. Just ask any vet.

The Sons of Confederate and Union Veterans are probably already engaged. I watched the December 8 presentations again (I still can’t figure out how to cut and paste although I tried Moon-howler’s instructions) and the Battlefield’s presentation stated that they would have speeches and dignitaries, a historian, and special honored guests. They also plan to have Confederate and Union reenactors for a reenactment of a meeting of the troops. They are listed as a member of the ongoing committee so it seems like this is covered. I do wonder if actual veterans are being included (except veterans who may be reenactors of course). That is not mentioned anywhere that I have seen.

It is my opinion, a carnival with vendors in Manassas is in no way, shape, or form appropriate. It is actually embarrassing.

We could celebrate Jackson’s raid on the Yankee supply depot at Manassas
prior to First Manassas with a wild party. Oysters and fine wine all around!
(shooting at trains passing through town might upset today’s RR folks,
but it would be historically accurate).

clueless,
Here’s the link to the 12/8/09 presentations by various groups.
http://pwcgov.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=284

VCWE is NOW listed on the ongoing committee’s page. However, the real question is WHEN did they become members? The ongoing committee was uderway when VCWE was “born”.

@Poor Richard “We could celebrate Jackson’s raid …”
Now, that’s a party I would like to attend. My old Dress Blues might pass for a Union uniform (if they still fit).

M-h, anyone who can trace their ancestry to a vet, living or dead, may join. Relatives of many flavors (I believe) count. Both groups have websites with info and applications.