AntiBVBL

Here in Richmond, the local committee is salted with Confederate apologists and revisionist historians like, UR’s Ed Ayers. They are planning a series of apologies and group hugs by revisionist historians designed to show how truly remorseful they are for being born, White.

Rather than having a few token events, Virginia needs to develop a comprehensive and ongoing program that promotes Confederate era tourism, throughout every year. With a coordinated approach that ties into international tours of battlefields and provides organized battle re-enactments and festivals. along with green tourism events, like bike tours that trace J.E.B. Stuart’s ride around McClellan, then Virginia could easily add over one BILLION dollars to our annual tourism revenue.

If only the self anointed “elites” in Richmond could stop apologizing for being Southern and White.

Well, Mr. Owen sounds like he is headed in the right direction.

Here in Richmond, the local committee is salted with Confederate apologists and revisionist historians like, UR’s Ed Ayers. They are planning a series of apologies and group hugs by revisionist historians designed to show how truly remorseful they are for being born, White.

Rather than having a few token events, Virginia needs to develop a comprehensive and ongoing program that promotes Confederate era tourism, throughout every year. With a coordinated approach that ties into international tours of battlefields and provides organized battle re-enactments and festivals. along with green tourism events, like bike tours that trace J.E.B. Stuart’s ride around McClellan, then Virginia could easily add over one BILLION dollars to our annual tourism revenue.

If only the self anointed “elites” in Richmond could stop apologizing for being Southern and White.

I watched it on TV and the $95,000 is to the County group. Owen is asking for $250,000 more for his group. I agree that he could sell ice to Eskimos. I trust our Board does not need anymore ice and with $250,000 I doubt everyone will be volunteers.

So…. why do we celebrate war? I would suggest we celebrate peace and use the money for the people of Prince William County (or at least leave it in their pockets). I have grown weary of a Government that spends its time figuring out how to raise revenue only to give it away.

It’s not “County money” we are talking about, its our money. If the Sesquicentennial event is a really commercially viable enterprise, let the private sector pay for it. The fact that they want “our” money to pay for this event answers the question.

Interestingly there is an agenda item for Tuesday under memo of understanding with Owen’s group. Predictably, the link to the document shows it to be unavailable. Guess we won’t know what’s going on behind the scenes until Tuesday.

I am curious how many actual veterans are part of the planning process. I’ve always noticed that those who haven’t actually experienced war appear to be the most attracted to the celebration of war. To some people, war is just a romantic abstraction. To vets, not so much.

Mom, glad to see you are here. Good morning. I just got done reading the posts from the other blog back when the issue was addressed before the City Council. The presentations have seemed to be unavailable in recent weeks on the county site. hmmm

I found it very intereseting that Mr. Owen had implied to the City Council that the PWCBS was quite supportive of the efforts of the group. Yet, I didn’t hear that “support” from the Chairman this past week. Happily too I might add. I was really glad Corey told him we have serious budget issues.
Mr. Owen gave the sales pitch of the year last Tuesday. I found his presentation informative, but at the same time it left me with a lot of questions. At the end of it all it sounds like they have a plan albeit sketchy(imho), and they want to “facilitate” and “coordinate” the events so they don’t overlap, and great importance was put on getting the word out of the events. The county, state, and Park Service all are and will be promoting this event. There will stories in the media such as these that will promote the event. We as citizens can spread the word with emails and various social networking sites. The PWBOS does NOT need to give the group quarter of a million of taxpayer dollars for market of Mr. Owen’s group.

oops..marketing and promotion of Mr. Owen’s group.

If this event is so popular in Prince William County, why isn’t it supported by a volunteer group? If we have to pay people to make it happen, perhaps its not worth doing in the first place.

250K pays for a lot of bus rides.

I would like to know if these board members of the group have sunk $250,000 of their own money that they want from we the taxpayers of PWC for this pet project.

Moon, no Corey didn’t have much choice, but he said it none the less.

MH, the money being asked for is in the order of $250 grand from the county and more from the state and Feds (plus that already allocated by the city). It will all go to the 501C group being set up by Owen and company.

Lafayette, you’ve pretty much nailed it. It would appear that is another of those typical “inside baseball” dealings that occur in PWC. The odd thing is that judging by the tone of the initial discussion, it is not getting much traction in these tough financial times. We’ll see how it plays out Tuesday but I would guess that the ones we need to keep an eye on are Nohe, Caddigan and Jenkins.

As to the purpose for the funding, it seems to be a moving target. In his presentation (guess it pays to have connections, wish I got thirty minutes to discuss important land use issues) Owen indicated that the group would act in the role of a coordinator, ensuring that separate events weren’t scheduled at the same time in part to allow local “dignitaries” to attend and get face time at all of the “important” events. Although it is presented as a somewhat altruistic effort, my guess is it is little more than an opportunity for those “connected” individuals (read Chamber members) to play kingmaker amongst the participants and get tax-payer funded space to further their own interests and egos. All I can guarantee is that if my supervisor votes for this after de-funding the senior centers and senior transportation, he will be facing a primary challenge.

My bad, thought that was clear, there is a county group that includes a variety of local and town groups as well as an effort by the National Parks. They have already been funded in the current budget and working on plans for quite some time. Owen’s effort is partially funded by the city and they are asking all levels for more dollars to superimpose themselves on the existing efforts.

Mom, will you be the challenger? And if so, can I be your campaign manager?

I honestly don’t know how they could be able to sleep at night if they opt for to give that money away after depriving our seniors of transportation, etc.. Yes, I said give it away, because the money is out of the county’s hands and in the hands of a private organization. Would there really be oversight by the county…I suspect NOT.

It all depends on who irritates me more in the coming months, my supervisor or Corey. At present, Corey is giving me a greater rash, we’ll see what happens during this years budget discussions.

Mom-lol!!

I’ve just visited the National Parks Service’s website and they really have quite a bit of infomation about the Manassas Battlefield and the surrounding area. In my mind this is more proof that we don’t need to give this group money for marketing which is really what I felt a big part of the money was needed for while listening to Mr. Owen’s presentation. I checked out some of the links and it seems as though there was a celebration in 2008 marking the 147th Anniversary of the First Battle of Manassas(not Bull Run, we are in Virginia afterall). I would like to know how many came out for this event last year promoted by the NPS. Well, at any rate they pulled it off without the help of Owen, et. al.

duh, here’s the link
http://www.nps.gov/mana/index.htm

I just watched the presentation. http://pwcgov.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=284 Owen mentioned that he plans to partner with the already established Sesquicentennial Committee. http://www.pwcgov.org default.aspx?topic=030039002180005555 So… why do we need another committee on top of the existing committee? Mr Owen shared that he is a volunteer. I appreciate his service. I also wonder why he doesn’t volunteer to work with the existing group?

Owen also shared that the 100K from Manassas and another Million is contingent on securing the County 250K. He plans to visit the feds next. We are talking 2-3 million to fund a group that duplicates an existing group all contingent on concurrent approval.

Corey Stewart asked some good questions. I hope they are more than show and he remains true to his conservative roots.

Correction to Sesquicentennial Committee (above).

http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=030039002180005555

1. I don’t know that commemorating a war is the same thing as celebrating war. We could be celebrating the fact that even though this country was at odds, it unified in the end. Also, I do think we are honoring the dead. MH, since you have family members who fought, can you weigh in on this?

2. Why can’t we put donation boxes in local businesses and other locations?

3. Why don’t the sups kick in some discretionary money? (Did they do that to bus the seniors? If so, why not?

4. Won’t the return on this investment be worth it?

@Moon-howler
Good morning, the first presentation last Tuesday was from the County and the CVB. They stated that they needed $95,000 per year to fund thier efforts. Mr. Owen’s group appears to be an additional group and they want $250,000.

PAP-celebrating/commemorating they are both marking a historical event. They are interchangable in my mind.

Well, all departments within the county have had cuts, and the discretionary money has not been cut any. Frankly, I think each supervisor could kick in some of that money for senior transportion, but let’s be real it’s not going to happen.

Well, Moon the both apply in my mind. Have you forgotten “perception is reality”?
We will have somber reinactments, fesitival like events and fancy balls. Some celebrations and some commerations.

Opinion :Correction to Sesquicentennial Committee (above).
http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=030039002180005555

Thanks for posting this link. I read what the powers and duties were, and NO where did it say a word about funding such activities.

I had no problem when the PWCBS contributed to student project like the one in Harper’s Ferry, of course they weren’t talking about $250K either. That is truly an educational project and involving students from the county.

Well, if you want to recall the horrors of war, the division the Civil War caused in this country, the personification of soldiers and civilians and deep thoughts alongside quotes and archival photos, I highly recommend my book : ) Part of the proceeds support historic preservation efforts. Buy 11 copies and you get a big discount! Wally Covington bought 11. Smart man!

http://www.poemsfromthebattlefield.com

And if you buy from me personally (don’t do it through Amazon), I will donate to the Sesquicentennial funding efforts.

How’s that for a bargain?

Which funding efforts? Do you mean to the county or to Mr. Owen’s group? I have many CW buffs in my family that might enjoy it.

I wonder if Wally will be giving your books for gifts to his fellow Supervisors.
I just couldn’t refuse that smart a$$ comment.

@Lafayette
Which would you like me to donate to, Lafayette? I’m not particular, so long as a real effort is being made.

I believe Wally was going to give copies to his fellows–or at least some of them. Poetic irony?

Order the books now and I will even sign and wrap them for Christmas! Or Kwanza. Or whatever you would like.

PAP

PAP-I really couldn’t say who to donate to at this time. I could only speculate. Personally, I would give to PWC Public Works and various other departments will be taking an active roll in the events taking place.

Good for Wally!

I wonder if the same conversations went on around Jamestown about the 400th anniversary, who is paying for what, who has control over what and how can we afford this. I wonder what they have to say now that it’s over — what was done right, what should have been done, but wasn’t.

I think if you live in an area that has a lot of history, and that history is about to experience a major anniversary, you have a responsibility to put forth the money to commemorate that history in the best way possible, and in as many ways as possible — not depending on one committee or one government agency to handle it.

I think Creston Owen and the people working with him should be commended for being proactive volunteers and setting this in motion with only 18 months to go. I think it’s unfair to compare this with the cuts that need to be made — this is something that has to be done, and done in a way that will reflect well around the world and put PWC and Manassas in a positive light. Give up a trip to the movies or eating out one fast food meal and send a small donation to Creston Owen’s group. It will add up.

@CindyB
I absolutely agree with one minor exception… if this is such a good idea, let this group solicit donations from local businesses and the community at large. Note that business donations to this group are tax deductable (assuming it gets the 501 (c)3 status it applied for).

It’s not county money we are talking about, or BOCS money, it is our money. I expect the BOCS to make the “hard choices” regarding which public services need to be cut while focusing on safety and security. Since this falls into neither category, I don’t expect things like Senior Bus Service to be cut while spending our money to support Civil War buffs and tourists.

I recognize the potential economic benefit of this proposal; however, I also recognize the risk. If it is really a good idea, Let business validate that benefit by supporting it. Once it becomes a business investment, due dilligence will significantly increase as businesses won’t invest in anything they don’t believe will provide a return on their investment.

Cindy, the City has already committed your City tax dollars to Mr. Owen’s group. The county has NOT, as of yet anyways. You can think it’s unfair to Mr. Owen’s group all you want to compare the cuts, but you are wrong. Our citizens and county employees have had many services cut already, and will face more cuts in the year to come, and they should NOT have to fork over their tax dollars for this one time venture. I would much prefer to see my county tax dollars spent on the citizens of the county, not those just passing through for a history lesson.

I don’t discount Mr. Owen’s efforts at all. I do think they should be out here soliciting funds from the private sector and the business community. There’s no doubt that there’s potential to benefit economically, but there’s NO proof tht this will happen. The county may as well take a quick trip to Charlestown and play on slot machines.

I’ve just got done reading a booklet from the 150th Commeration in 1961, and I could help noticing at the bottom of many pages were little advertisements/sponsorships. The most interesting thing was see how many businesses from outside of PWC and Manassas were shown in the booklet and program. BTW-the program was 25cents and the booklet with the history was sold at the event for $2. I’m very pleased to say that my copy is in mint condition. I wonder how many other “local historians” might have a copy of this publication called 1ST MANASSAS(BULL RUN) and the war around it…

Note that the City of Manassas only approved the $100K if the County also contributed $250K. They are counting on City and County money to build a case for State money (1 Mil) and Federal money (TBD). It would appear the group has no funding at the moment (since no commercial sponsors are listed on their web site).

I would suggest they start their fund raising in the Business community before asking for any City, County, State, or Federal funding. If business won’t kick in, why should we?

I agree that this needs to start as a private effort. One of the problems with pinning their hopes on the County $$$ is that we don’t know if the state will kick in anything. The state is in worse shape than the County and I suspect that our delegates will have a tough row to hoe if they try to get this through as a budget amendment. If this is worthwhile business venture then private money will be available. It is easy to ask for government money. Private money will include real due dilligence and an actual business plan.

The “wild card” is the growing Senior citizen population. Seniors vote. Should the BOCS be foolish enough to fund this project while not taking care of bus service (or any other number of Senior Citizen issues) we might see some new faces in 2011.

I hope someone has the foresight to start organizing this powerful demographic now. “We” can run this County if we wish to. Perhaps we need a few more Seniors on the BOCS to add a touch of wisdom and experience.

I agree with Moon-howler, it is history and we should talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly in the context of what was happening at the time. This anniversary should be about the American Civil War and where we have come since then. I do not think you should apologize for the Confederacy or say it was correct. The United States put a Civil War behind it and 150 years later have an African-American President. In my opinion, it is the story of the last 150 years that changed the world and made our Country the beacon of Freedom around the World.

In Rita Koman’s fine new book ” Manassas Mosiac, Creating A Community”,
it is noted (P.132) that “The First Manassas Corporation formed in March 1960
to support and plan a grand reenactment of the First Battle of Manassas,
set the pattern for the next four years of commemorations.” It was
headed by the late R. Jackson Ratcliffe.
Over 30,000 people attended the event at the Manassas Battlefield Park
in 1961 and it was considered a tremendous success despite seasonal
heat and humidity.

PR, I saw “The First Manassas Corporation” in the book and program I spoke of earlier. Do you happen to how long that corporation stayed incorporated? I’m asking because I’m very curious how long any new corporations/group will be around after the two commerations.

I’m not sure how an event could be called a “tremendous success” when the very basic needs of trash receptacles and port-a-potties weren’t around for guest to dispose of their waste. I will 30,000 in attendence in 1961 was a “tremendous turnout”, and not neccessarily a “success”. Several of my family members attended the event and they said the heat and humidity was bad, but no place to relieve yourself(without doing so in public) was the worst part of the two day event.

Remember the 125th Anniversary of First Manassas in 1986 that was
combined with the 75th Anniversary of the Manassas Peace Jubilee.
The “battle” took place in then open land near Westfield, Fairfax
County. Manassas played host to reenactors from Lafayette, La.
who set up camp on what was to become the Manassas Museum
Lawn – they arrived by train in full uniform and were greeted by
a crowd and the OHS band. (The men represented a regiment
from the Lafayette area who fought at Manassas in 1861).

Opinion :The “wild card” is the growing Senior citizen population. Seniors vote. Should the BOCS be foolish enough to fund this project while not taking care of bus service (or any other number of Senior Citizen issues) we might see some new faces in 2011.
I hope someone has the foresight to start organizing this powerful demographic now. “We” can run this County if we wish to. Perhaps we need a few more Seniors on the BOCS to add a touch of wisdom and experience.

Seniors most definately do vote and the senior population is growing faster than ever with the baby boomers coming upon their golden years. We have currently have two seniors on the board, and I don’t see/hear them fighting for their contemporaries. Not to mention all the other board members have parents that are seniors. I know these are tough economic times, but some of the seniors have lived here for decades and have/do pay taxes and they do deserve transportation to the senior centers. I really do fear that the senior centers will be next to be cut. I would think that ANY supervisor that would opt to give money to Mr. Owen’s group over funding senior transportation should/would NOT be sitting on the board after the next elections.

@Poor Richard
I was in the crowd in 1986 along with my parents which had one of their first dates at the 1961 Commemoration. I do appreciate the reminder that they were from Lafayette, LA.

Ok, considered a tremendous success “by many”. Can understand how
lack of port-a-potties might make it more realistic than some would like.

What I am hearing is we need to know more about Mr. Owen.

I reallly wasn’t disputing the “report”. I was giving my family’s personal account of the day. I find it amazing that 30,000 flocked to our area in 1961. I wonder what the number will be in 2011.

Posting As Pinko :What I am hearing is we need to know more about Mr. Owen.

I think we need to see the “budget” of his group. He did state it was submitted to the board on Tuesday, and that they’d already submitted it to the City Manager of Manassas. I really think that “budget” needs to be made public. It’s OUR tax dollars afterall.

For those really curious, check out the Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park
Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee and then ask yourself why we need the Virginia Civil War Events Inc.

http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=030039002180005555

The Commission has the following powers and duties:

1. Plan, develop, and carry out programs and activities appropriate to commemorate the sesquicentennial of the American Civil War.
2. Encourage interdisciplinary examination of the American Civil War.
3. Facilitate balanced activities related to the American Civil War throughout Virginia.
4. Encourage civic, historical, educational, economic, and other organizations throughout Virginia to organize and participate in activities to expand the understanding and appreciation of the significance of the American Civil War.
5. Provide technical assistance to localities and nonprofit organizations to further the commemoration of the sesquicentennial of the American Civil War.
6. Develop programs and facilities to ensure that the sesquicentennial commemoration of the American Civil War results in a positive legacy and long-term public benefit.
7. Encourage the development and conduct of programs designed to involve all citizens in activities that commemorate the American Civil War.
8. Report annually to the General Assembly and the Governor on the interim activity and work of the Commission.

Lafayette, Most Civil War battles took place in the summer months and in
the South – consequently reenactments tend to risk heat and humidity.
Remember 1986 and almost passing out as a spectator – could only
imagine what it would be like in a woolen uniform – in 1986 or
even more in 1861 with people shooting at you. I enjoy history,
but also A/C and indoor plumbing.
Did remember one fellow from Lafayette at the 1986 reenactment that
broke his leg when his horse fell on him. We helped provide
special transportation so he could return home.
o

@Poor Richard
It was also the reason why reenactments were banned from Federal Battlefields and a book was written to speak to why it should not be allowed again.

Cluless, the 1986 event was on private property, but the standard story
is the US Park Service banned large reenactments after the 1961 event
at Manassas. Can understand how one could cause longe term damage -
almost as much as the idiots who OKed the recent clear cutting
of trees and leaving the mess for us to “enjoy”.

The story of the July 1961 reenactment. There are a few lessons here.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/mana/adhi5f.htm

@Poor Richard
Poor Richard, I was speaking about the 1961 event, sorry for the confusion. Opinion: Thanks for the link.

I wonder if the County gave money to the 1961 corporation for the event. The history of 50 years ago seems pretty interesting. I wonder if this thread will be reviewed 50 years from now when our children and grandchildren are deciding how to mark the 200th Anniversary of the American Civil War.

Recently cleaned out part of the attic and found some promotional literature
for the Disney facility proposed near the battlfield. (Sure glad
we opted for the McMansion urban sprawl model instead of a
proven large revenue/job producer). Disney would have been all
over this with no government cost and hiring extra people for
next summer.

PWC’s finest hour to turn Disney jobs into Townhome gridlock. I am sure glad that 29/66 developed the way it did. Disney would have brought traffic…..

Cluless, a sad thing about blogs and e-mail is that I imagine most of it
will be lost to future historians. There will be far fewer “primary sources”.

PR, I have a pin of Disney America that I keep right here on my desk. It still sickens me to this day that we have those McMansions with residents that need numerous services instead of revenue generating Disney(proven as you said). Disney would be ALL over this upcoming commemeration, indeed. The county really missed the boat when they turned Disney down. I’m sure that Disney would have knocked Potomac Mills out of the #1 tourist destination in the Commonwealth. To think PWC could’ve been home to both the #1 & #2 tourist destinations. Just think of the tax revenue, especially the occupancy tax. Grr.

Disney would have brought jobs and revenue to PWC and they would have
been a great corporate neighbor. Their very business plan
depended on good traffic flow as part of a positive experience for
visitors. Disney’s best interest was our best interest, far better than
what we ended up having.

@Opinion But is there anything about fundraising here? Are Owen et al subcontractors in a sense?

@Posting As Pinko
To answer your question, I think not (although that’s just my opinion). The group as requested 501(c)3 status (which they don’t expect to see approved until July of next year). This means they don’t make a profit. It also means that they can’t lobby to influence public policy. There is an argument to be made that perhaps they are attempting to influence public policy by lobbying that money be spent on this initiative rather than something else. They are required to maintain neutrality regarding Government policy (at all levels). Their very nature makes their neutrality questionable since they appear to be set up to influence how City, County, State and Federal revenue is disbursed. While 501(c)3’s can request grants and funding from the Government, this group appears a bit different (to me) because they appear to be set up for the purpose of funneling Government money (city, county, state, federal) towards their enterprise. Since the Government already has a group

http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=030039002180005555

to manage the Sesquicentennial, I find this odd (and perhaps not the best way to spend taxpayer dollars). I would prefer that our money go to the Government formed group to ensure proper oversight (the Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee has very specific requirements to report on how it spends our money). Since I am already paying for the Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee, paying for Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. would be, in effect, paying twice for overhead, administration, execution, staff, etc., etc., etc. I think not.

Owen et al appear to be Civil War buffs interested in helping make the Sesquicentennial a success. From what I have read, I believe their interest is really in the re-enactment. I believe Owen is a member of sons of Confederate Veterans (and I would guess that many of this group’s BOD members also belong) and guess that he and his crew look forward to participating in the full dress re-enactment.

http://sonsofconfederateveterans.blogspot.com/2009/11/manassas-prepares-for-150th-reenactment.html

The sons of Confederate Veterans are, naturally, big fans of this event. The sons of Union Veterans (of which I am one) do not appear to be involved. This link is interesting because it gives (at least me) the first “peak” at what the Virginia Civil War Events Inc. plans to spend our money on, “Owen’s outfit of volunteers is poised to begin organizing the nine-day commemoration that is set to include a Blue and Gray Ball at the Candy Factory, a re-enactment of the First Manassas battle, breakfast with the troops and concerts on the lawn of the Manassas Museum and at the battlefield.” That’s all great… I just don’t want to pay for it (particularly the Blue and Gray Ball – I doubt I would get in. How about you, M-H?).

Owen is a respected member of our business community. He is working pro bono on this project. I do not question his honor or integrity, just his approach to funding this group. His political contribution record indicates that he is a Conservative (many donations to the Republican party – some rather large. Don’t be surprised if Governor-elect McDonnell, Senator Colgan, and Delegate Lingamfelter support his efforts. Likewise, I wouldn’t expect much resistance from the Manassas newspaper). I’m surprised that someone with conservative values would set up a non-profit for apparently the sole purpose of funneling taxpayer dollars to a clearly redundant organization.

I don’t question this group’s motives. I do question the logic of dipping into taxpayer pockets to fund this private, non-profit group when a properly chartered Government group exists. My problem is with the fact this group would like to operate at our expense. There’s nothing stopping this group from asking for our money. We don’t have to say “yes”. Our BOCS can say “no” on our behalf. Should the BOCS say “no”, this would also end the Manassas contribution (since it was contingent on a PWC contribution) and probably the State and Federal funding requests. I hope our Chairman and County Supervisors have the good sense to say no.

My opinion – I think these folks want us pay for their party. I’d rather not. I hope the Seniors in PWC read this blog. They could put a quick stop to this (or ensure that we get some new faces on the BOCS in 2011).

This is all just my opinion. I guess it’s time to write a letter.

You know, we “Seniors” and “soon to be Seniors” really need to get organized so we can “take our Government back”.

Opinion, thank you for that detailed response. I understand the dynamics a bit more now, (though I am not sure conservative and liberal have much to do with it unless people want to read it that way. I don’t, but I can understand where you are coming from if you are politically active, especially in a party).

I agree that offering up such a large amount of public money for this event is a slap in the face to seniors. Do both or the seniors must be put first. It looks like Wally Covington offered a reasonable solution by suggesting using school buses.

I also believe there is SOME money which can be used to support the event, even if not the full amount. Again, why aren’t we looking at discretionary funds in addition to private fundraising events? The partnerships could yield significant results.

Do you really think Sons of the Union aren’t welcome? And isn’t Senator Colgan a Democrat? Am I misreading you?

I actually took part in a blue and gray ball at Buckland (had a book signing). It was amazing and the people were really nice, but I was definitely outclassed. The good news is there are some VERY dedicated, influential people who do indeed have money and who can help with this commemorative event.

Moon, glad you brought up the rest areas. I sure hope they are open by 2011. The state should open the rest areas up before sinking money into a project such as this given our current economic climate. Let’s see open rest areas or toss money to the VCWE group?

I believe we are all in agreement Mr. Owen wants $250K from the county, but does it really stop there? Will the VCWE be asking for money after this initial $250K from PWC? We the citizens should not be funding fancy balls and such for visitors when we can’t even give our seniors transportation to the senior centers.

I sure hope you all have expressed your opinions to all of the supervisors. They may be elected to represent their district, but their vote effects each and every citizen in the county. If you do write, please, write to all of the supervisors. Our seniors do not deserve such an all out slap in the face. I sent my letter a few hours ago.

@Posting As Pinko
Preston is a Conservative who has invested in his beliefs at many levels. Conservatives happen to run things at the moment. The Conservatives in the food chain (the folks I mentioned – including Colgan) for approval of this request all received donations form Preston. That certainly ensures that Preston will get an appointment and an audiance (although not necessarily the decision he wants). There is nothing wrong with any of this (that’s how Government works – and it isn’t necessarily fair); however, exposing the connections will make elected officials think a bit harder about their decision.

To clarify, I don’t think the Sons of Union Veterans would be unwelcome. I just couldn’t fine any evidence of engagement. I’m guessing an invitation will be coming forthwith.

I can see the headline now, “BOCS stiffs County seniors; however, the Blue and Gray banquet danced on!” I’m surprised that the press isn’t asking some of the questions we are asking… perhaps not so surprised. That really proves the value of a “free blog”.

@Moon-howler
Excellent observation about the rest stops!

Virginia rest stops are supposed to reopen within 90 days of the new govenor’s term, according to what McDonnell told reporters.

Just my opinion, since I’m not a county resident, but I think we should fund the commemoration, and fund transportation for seniors. Use school buses since they sold the other buses. I see Gregg Reynolds regularly and admire his community activism. There is a lot going on at those senior centers.

I am a business person and Chamber member. I’ve already sent money to Creston Owen whether it’s tax deductible or not, and I encourage other businesses and individuals to do likewise. When I visit other places of history, others have paid so I can learn. Looking forward to going to Little Rock, Arkansas next spring, and hope to visit as much history as possible. They paid to perserve their history so I can see it. Again, I think if you fund several different groups and agencies, you will ensure you get several different viewpoints on history, and that’s the way it should be.

Disney … I was right there with all the other contractors and subcontractors salivating at the possibility of getting work from them. Went to the free seminars at George Mason in Fairfax, ate their food, drank their drinks, looked at their displays, kept all their souvenir buttons and brochures. Thankfully, my first husband, who was born in Virginia, and protective of Virginia history, kept me grounded. I trust Creston Owen and his board to do the events right, despite all the jabs here about running around playing soldier or dancing while seniors are stiffed.

@CindyB
Cindy, I am glad that you are willing to financially support the group. At this point I am not. We have nothing to go on to complete any due diligence, at least in public. Maybe the City and the County have more information. I doubt that State money is coming. Posting as Pinko mentioned a recent ball. Did the County pay for that?

I think the plan may have merit and I beleive that Mr. Owen is doing this to help generate business. It should be funded privately, if businesses think it will make money then they will invest. Businesses will review detailed plans before investing, something that is missing, at least publicly here. At the very least, the BOCS needs to put this off until more information is made available and the State kicks in $1 million.

@clueless
NO that ball was put on by Buckland Preservation Society–completely private.

If Mr. Owen knows how to generate business from this and keep the visitors coming, I’m all for it!

Email sent 07:55 P.M. 13 Dec 2009

Chairman Stewart and members of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors,

I watched Creston M. Owen’s Presentation on 8 December requesting that Prince William County give $250,000 to Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. Mr. Owen made a most compelling argument. I understand that the Sesquicentennial holds the potential to generate jobs and revenue for the County. I also understand that any investment of this nature includes risk. As you acknowledged in your remarks, these are tough times for Prince William County taxpayers. I understand that you and your colleagues on the Board will be faced with tough choices.

I would like to go on record requesting that you do not support Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. with taxpayer money.

The Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee was formed to coordinate local efforts of the statewide commission and local activities among local historic sites, museums, parks and localities. Through this committee, programs will be planned, implemented and coordinated. Future plans call for the committee to sponsor lectures, bus tours, and living history programs. It is not intuitively obvious to me why Prince William County should support a second, private group when a formal group already exists. I do not understand what Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. would like to do that could not be accomplished by the aforementioned group . Since Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. has apparently based its business plan on public money (100k – Manassas, 250K – PWC, 1 Mil – Commonwealth of Virginia, TBD – Federal Government), it would actually be a quasi-governmental group without the associated oversight. To fund two groups would be do fund two apparently redundant organizations and the associated management, overhead, office space, etc., etc. with no obvious additional value. This is not the path to a smaller, more efficient Government.

That being said, Mr. Owen did offer some interesting ideas and leadership that would be good for the event. I recognize the potential benefits to local businesses. I would suggest that the local businesses that would benefit from his organization should be the ones that fund his organization. Prince William County should support the already established The Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee. Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. should look to the local business community and county residents for funding and sponsorship.

Respectfully,

Al

Alan P. Alborn
President & Principal
Alborn Foundation
http://www.alborn.net

Readers might want to check out the fight on the dark screen over Creston Owen’s group.

It gets sort of personal over there.

http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2009/11/12/hold-your-wallet-%e2%80%93-here%e2%80%99s-mark-again/

I would like to know why the request of $250K from the county isn’t be covered.

I don’t about personal BVR. I did notice one person thinking the were called the R-word. Guilty conscience perhaps?

corr: I don’t KNOW about….

@Black Velvet Reporter
Doesn’t EVERYTHING get personal over there?

I would suggest that there is middle ground regarding leveraging Creston Owen’s proposal, talent as a businessman, salesman, and advocate for the Sesquicentennial. Why not put him in charge of The Prince William/Manassas/Manassas Park Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee and allow him to run the show?

I believe that a successful business person with his range of contacts across the County and State is best positioned to bring the diverse equities of the many groups involved into a cohesive and successful Sesquicentennial celebration. Simply put, his business success demonstrates he knows how to manage to budget. I also believe combining his talent with the existing group provides the oversight required for the investment the City of Manassas, Prince William County, the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the Federal Government are prepared to make.

While I don’t support public money going to a private group when a publically funded group already exists, I do think putting Mr. Owen in charge of the existing public group is… well… a swell idea. He brings a certain passion to the effort that is required to do the job. When I think about it, I love his vision, I am just suggesting a change of venue.

It’s a win/win.

@Opinion
You know, that’s not a bad idea.

In the interests of the vast majority of Prince William County residents, employees and taxpayers, Prince William County and the BOCS need to take full advantage of this opportunity to support the Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. (VCWE) request. There are several reasons. First, it is an important moment in history and the County’s history that VCWE sees as the first in a series of large scale and other annual events – events that have been shown to bring in large numbers of tourists/ $. If the BOCS lets this opportunity pass, there will be a large scale reenactment of First Manassas somewhere else for some other community- even out of state – to benefit from the large scale business opportunities, jobs and tourism/tax dollars. Its been done before and will otherwise be done again – which is why, as Mr. Owen has explained – felt compelled to get involved — to keep it here. Second, what is being offerred here is a public-private partership with the City and County where ALL proceeds from the events will be plowed back into the County/City. A private sector non-501c3 for profit – can and will otherwise take this opportunity on and keep the money and it is a substantial amount of money we are talking about- the risk is minimal Lets do it another way, if the County is not a player in this partnership – it has no claim to any of the proceeds. As it is, jobs will be created/saved here both directly in support of these events and indirectly in the hotel, food and, hopefully, the construction trades. This includes funds for historic restoration which will reduce the pressure on County PW appropriations for existing assets which are already underfunded. Third, the money requested is not competing with senior citizens. Geez !! As noted above, the money is from existing Board of Tourism residuals that cannot be used – as also noted above – for anything other than tourism. In effect folks, the local business community (hotel and restruant industries) have already paid for this investment and its really only a question of what to use that money for – As the PWC Budget Director noted — its fenced money – not available, as a matter of law, to the senior transporation transfer subsidies. The new tourist phamplets are nice, the pastures to suburbs exhibit is nice, but they are not going to generate substantially more money to the County. Its the big show that is needed. 15-20,000 reenactors are not unreasonable – plus spectators and Mr. Owen and “his team of volunteers (contractors = jobs) have the experience, skills, background to pull this off. Reenactments are not new, doing them for a public purpose at this scale is.
Again, this is not your general public appropriation fund that can be used to subsidize seniors — but you choose, County agencies have asked – Clueless – for $95,000 per year (more than $475,000) for their torch light tours, book signings and teas, and yes, lectures, bus tours, and living history programs. which frankly will not generate a single new tourist – or do you want to invest half of that total amount – once – to generate the money for, as Chairman Stewart said, the major events over a number of years that will generate a Return-On Investment to the residents of the County, be used to fund our historical assests, publicize PWC on the national news and create jobs and more tax revenue. Its the investment that – once rolling – keeps on giving.
On a business/good government level, Owen is trying to minimize the growth of government, while benefiting publically owned assets. I still do not get the resistance /concern. I see Owen trying to do what the public agencies are unwilling or are incapable of doing – and putting together the teams that can do it.

@PWC taxpayer Re, “I see Owen trying to do what the public agencies are unwilling or are incapable of doing – and putting together the teams that can do it.”

It would appear that you are telling us that our investment in the existing public agencies probably is a waste of taxpayer money and that perhaps the BOCS is not providing the necessary oversight of public resources dedicated to this event… correct? If this is true, why not “fire” whomever is in charge now and put Owen in charge of these public agencies? He is working pro bono as it is and not in it for the money. I’m guessing he’d step up if asked.

Sorry… the appeal of funding (as you said) “…public agencies that are unwilling or are incapable of doing – and putting together the teams that can do it.” in addition to funding a a second, non-profit group to make up for the shortcomings of the folks responsible for the task really doesn’t give me a warm, fuzzy feeling as a taxpayer. Let’s fix what’s broken before paying twice for the same services.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing it. Public agencies have statutory, regulatory and budgetary limits on how they achieve specified goals, the scope of what they can do and how they do it – how and what they can spend money on. To my knowledge no PWC agency has ever tried to put on a complex or large scale event like this nor do they have the background experience or skills. Remember that the Manassas Museum Director introduced Owen to the Manassas City Council recognizing that.fact – so they are trying to do more of what they do know – which, frankly, will not generate the kinds of new revenues we could be talking about. I do not think that VCWE wants to operate our publiclly owned assets nor do I think that VCWE wants to compete with those activities – hence the coordination commitment and , yes, they should all get along together and schedule to facilitate each other. But I think you know that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about whether the BOCS will let this stimulus opportunity go to someone else. If that happens, the loss to the community will be well defined when the event occurs somewhere down the road – literally. The 501c3 public-private partnership that VCWE is offering, takes the strengths of each player to the general beneift of all.

It would appear that you are proposing Prince William County make a business decision to base its future on a tourist economy driven by the Manassas battlefield. This would in fact create many openings for restaurant and hotel workers, small business opportunities for vendors, T-Shirt shops, souvenir stands, etc., and forever change the nature and character of all roads leading to the Battlefield and Prince William County. The vision you propose is not one to be made lightly. You are talking about an impact on the environment and quality of life for the residents of Prince William County for many years to come. The county would become a tourist destination driven by a tourist economy. I would suggest this is not a decision to be made in haste.

I have a few questions.

1. How does this fit into our Comprehensive plan?
2. How does it integrate into our Business Development initiative?
3. How will it impact our environment?
4. What is the history of tourist destinations regarding crime (does crime tend to increase or decrease)?
5. Will this create an even larger magnet for illegal immigrants to come to Prince William County for jobs?
6. How will it impact real estate values?
7. Will it impact our ability to attract the fortune 1000 business crowd, Washington Metro System Integrators, and Educational Institution expansion that I believe we are currently seeking?
8. We know funding for roads is non-existent. What will the impact be on traffic?
9. What will a tourist based County do to its residents commute on I95 & I66?

I could go on. Perhaps the Chairman and the BOCS should “take a breath” and task staff to do a strategic analysis to answer the above questions (plus a few more). This is a math problem. I would suspect staff would want to see a flushed out business plan and examples of other communities who made such a decision (both good results and bad results). This is something that should have been proposed perhaps five years ago to allow for the analysis required to decide on such a strategic direction. Saying “yes” could change the Character of our County forever. We really need to think about that a bit.

Thanks for your post. I had no idea just how grand a scale Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. had envisioned for Prince William County. If we say, “yes” things will never be the same.

@PWC taxpayer
Your last post gave me pause. This is a complex venture that requires very specialized skills and experience. No disrespect intended to Mr. Owen or his group; however, considering the scale you presented perhaps we would be better served paying a for profit company with experience in such matters to handle execution.

Personally, I have no sense of scale regarding what such an event costs. do you know where the numbers being asked for come from (roughly 1.35 mil not counting any Federal contribution by my math)? Have you seen the business plan? I didn’t really see anything on the website. Perhaps I missed it in Mr. Owen’s presentation.

Perhaps the real answer is to go through the proposal process and compete this. Frankly, I really don’t see how the BOCS could do anything else other than compete this. Virginia Civil War Events, Inc. could then compete with other vendors on a level playing field… let the best proposal win.

Good questions – and I hope we get to a point that they are given full consideration. Diversifying our economy, creating new jobs and new sources of non real property tax revenues, protecting our historic assets and cultures – its all in there. But its a moot point if the County walks away from this cash cow — and those with hurting businesses and job losses might want to know why this investment was not made.
I agree it takes leadership, because the decision point for this event is – perhaps unfortunately – now. The Va Board of Tourism has a site that might also address some of your questions. We have been talking about unrestrained residential development for 35 years.

@PWC taxpayer
Your post really opened my eyes. I would propose one alternative that should be seriously consider is that Prince William County support modest, one time celebration of he Sesquicentennial with minimal temporary infrastructure to handle anticipated crowds… and then return to normal for 50 years or so. We should emulate the many struggling families in the County and live within our means.

The County, the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the Country is broke. There’s a war on. We should celebrate consistent on the reality of the times within which we live.

@PWC taxpayer
The decision point for a proposal of this scale was about five years ago. That boat’s sailed. I’m afraid this is one of those times where I hope our leadership just says “no”.

@PWC taxpayer
I assume you are familiar with the County’s other business development initiatives? We do have other options for growth that already consider the questions I posed. Actually, the other options (after understanding the scale of your vision) appear much more attractive to me now.

Why wait 148 years after the First Battle of Manassas to decide it’s a “cash cow”. Gettysburg started cashing in years ago. I don’t see Manassas becoming “the Civil War” battlefield to visit. It seems to me this would’ve happened years ago, if not decades.

Thank you PWC taxpayer, and I hope PWC leads the way and says yes. It’s not duplication of effort, a variety of efforts are needed. I don’t mind donating and also paying taxes to make this happen. I will open my home to out of town visitors, same as I did during the inauguration when the hotels filled up. This is a commemoration, and we have a responsibility to be hosts to people who make the pilgrimage.

Lots of good points here. For one, the CVB for PWC/Manassas has a budget to market this County to tourists. They would be the ones to market the Local Committees programs and efforts. It seems Mr. Owen has backed off his “reenactment” idea. If his group doesnt have this big reenactment, then why give them the money? They want money to market CW events in 2011…well, why cant the CVB hire someone to do that? Then this money would not have to go to a private group without any Government oversight. This BOS has repeatedly endorsed the County’s Local CW 150th group…now they act like it never existed?? What great leadership…they have voted twice in the past to endorse this group and now act like it has dont nothing…what a joke and how embarassing for the BOS!!!! If Mr. Owen wants an MOU with the CVB to run a CW 150th website for the County, then lets do it…but money for CW Ball and reenactment, no way. The other events (bus tours, Peace Jubilee, tours, lectures, living history) have ALREADY been discussed by the local committee and are being planned…with or without VCE. Finally, why is it called “Virginia Civil War Events” when its only Manassas and PWC focused? Mr. Owen is a great salesman for sure….

I think the PWC Taxpayer’s comments are disingenious above. VCE is asking for this money not just ONCE but on a repeated basis through 2012 (possibly if they want a second manassas event). So..its NOT a one time payment. Also, downplaying what the County’s historic sites are asking for is shameful. Looking at the agenda for tomorrow you can see the Staff Report. MOST of this money goes to road signs so all these tourists VCE swears they will get can find the CW sites they say they are supporting. Also, a good portion of this money goes to the Journey Through Hallowed Ground for an education progam and an Education program partnership (with the local committee that VCE claims is doing nothing!) at Manassas Battlefield for 6th graders next year….a VERY honest and worthwhile use of funds…educating the youth on this tragic time of our history. Also, saying they are going to do “torch light tours” only is ridiculous….the local group has more than that planned and will bring in tourists – even if VCE doesnt exist! As the earlier post says, the CVB will market these events if VCE wasnt involved. Real educational, respectable and historically correct programs for the public and tourists is whats best. Dont use the money on a CW ball with bad Civil War uniforms and a reenactment (which will bring in little money, how much did the last CW reenacmtment in PWC make? Does anyone remember the one held at Long Park many years ago??). The estimates of reeactnors and audience it will draw is VASTLY over stated…the numbers they speak of does not exist at any CW reeactments anymore….its not the 1960’s anymore. Please dont put down the local historic sites and their efforts to survive to make your point. At least that money will be going through a vetted budget process with BOS oversight….NOT to a private group.

Manassas,
I too am all in favor of the student project that was presented to the board in Oct. or Nov.
That project is real education and involves our students and seemed quite successful with their work in Harper’s Ferry with the students.

Link to prior thread on this issue with regard to the City of Manassas.
http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2009/11/12/manassas-council-to-spend-100k-on-civil-war-anniversary/

Here’s a post with the presentation from a prior thread after the request of $100K from the City of Manassas.
Lafayette November 13th, 2009 at 09:09 | #6 Reply | Quote Here’s a link to the presentation to the PWBOS called “Of the Students, By the Students, For the Students”. They show what the students did for Harper’s Ferry and their celebration of the 150th Anniversary.
http://pwcgov.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=275
I really hope they get the grant money and partner with the county for this project. If this project moves forward they would also do the same for the Second Battle of Manassas. They are some requirements for the grant money based free/reduced lunches and Stonewall Middle would be the school to work on this project. The National Park Service will certainly be promoting the Anniversary, and they had a very postive responses to the Hollowed Ground project.

Moon, you and I both agree the “free lunch” methodology is not the appropriate one. It would’ve been much better had the schools/students competed for the opportunity to take part in the project. Or if they had just we are picking Stonewall Middle or Bull Run Middle because their names with regards to the Civil War, but that wasn’t the case.

@Moon-howler
“If we build it, they will come.”

It’s not too late.

Think of it this way–when we dig up an archeological relic, do we say, “Eh, it has been underground for this long, let’s just leave it there”?

“Where is the county going to get $250k?”

Perhaps Briley’s salary and benefits, heh, heh, heh.

Might be a better investment of funds to attract economic development, snark, snark.

Howler – The County has unsed TOT funds that is used for Parks, Historic Preservation, CVB and other Tourism related projects. It comes from the tax visitors pay when they stay in a hotel. A tourism tax….There is about $800,000 left this year in that fund, that is where the money would come from…BUT…FY11 TOT is supposed to be lower, and this money is the CVB’s budget, and they are hiring full time staff (they have been without for sometime) and this money also pays for a good portion of the Historic Preservation budget…so its NOT idle money

@Manassasman
So… we are talking about taking money from the Government group responsible for tourism and giving it to a private group? Wouldn’t the citizens of Prince William County lose a voice in how this money is spent once this happens (since it would be outside the elected Governance process or County staff oversight)? Wouldn’t the BOCS (our elected officials) lose control of oversight of how this money is spent once this happens? Will they be back to ask for more in the future should things go “wrong”?

This topic is going to be discussed at the 6:00 session of the BOCS. The County Attorney’s office is reporting and I believe staff will be providing input. I would suggest this is one BOCS meeting worth watching on video. Considering the other money being requested from various sources, the CVB could change the economic, social, and cultural direction of Prince William County perminantly. We should make such a decision very carefully. I don’t believe such a decision should be left to a private group.

Yes to all you said above…something tells me this will be tabled to a later date. That way VCE can meet with BOS members behind closed doors to make a deal…I love transparency in government! These things are decided before they go before the public…..all the wrangling and words during the meetings is just political posturing for the voters.

Manassas is correct with respect to the TOT funds, but is absolutely wrong about the recurring nature of the request, the numbers of reenactors and spectators, what has been going on for 25 years in the historical reenactment (volunteers) community and therefore the potential revenue that can be generated and must not have read most of the comments already posted because VCWE is not a private group – its a 501c3. Its clear that this request is for seed money – as a part of a partnership – to get the thing going over the long term. Presumably, if the number of visits increases by having a main attraction, the fund will rebuild quicker than if the reenactment is not held.
For the life of me , I do not understand why folks would oppose to a win-win opportunity, where for very little money, the County gets a big bump in tourism and local spend, direct and indirect long term job growth, a new source of tax revenue and, separately, a new source of funding that is committed to the preservation of our historical assets. Opinion, the $500,000 supplemental funding the local agencies want is for that small sedate, educational lecture and, yes, torch light program that they have set out and will control, but it will bring in nonone that was not already coming to PWC. Sure, lets take some 6-graders on a field trip. That’s a creative solution to our economic problem – not. If you want to plead that we are broke (without going back to the nature and limits of TOT spending) – that field trip is an irresponsible expenditure right now that should be on the schools. You folks must all be public employees, retired or have a business that is doing great, but you need to consider the majority of residents in the community. And Moon, what part of Manassas or PWC is not historic or a battlefield. We have the Marine Corps Museum on the east and the NPS Manassas on the west, in between we have Mosby and Kettle Run, Bristow and Buckland. Some of us did grow up in it without it being supported by a Community too interested in becoming a suburb. Here is a chance to diversify, before its too late. Given the availability of TOT funds, which investment has the potential to help the County more?

@PWC taxpayer
Just to make sure that people have the right informaion, a 501(c)3 is by definition a private group. The only oversight is the IRS (Form 990) and the Virginia Department of Taxation. Should VCE actually come into possession of 1.35 million plus, its BOD will be the only oversight of how it is spent… ergo, my reasoning for keeping the money in a Government organization.

Frankly, I’m more concerned about the long term impact on the County than the event itself. I just don’t see the math to back up your many claims of benefits to the County or a plan to tell us just how much this will relly cost or what the long term impacts to the County will be. I’m sure it will create jobs; however, I would rather see high paying technical jobs attracted to the County vice more fast food, souviner sales and hotel maid positions. I’m not sure the businesses that would create the technical jobs will be attracted to a County that has chosen tourism as its future direction. To be clear, “I’m not sure” is the operative phrase. This proposal needs more analysis. The County would not be well served by a hasty decision.

This is no different in principle than the folks from Disneyworld telling us how wonderful a park would be for our community. That discussion also started with a great deal of excitement from many corners; however, it disintegrated under close inspection. I just ask that our BOCS really think about the VCE proposal before supporting it.

The very fact that the VCE is asking for public money from all quarters instead of attempting to raise (tax deductible) funds privately is, in itself, an indication that perhaps this proposal lacks broad support from the County business community and residents.

…and for the record, VCE is not yet a 501(c)3 and doesn’t expect to be one until July 2010. Since their sole purpose is lobbying City, County, State and Federal Government for money and policy decisions, there is a good chance their request will not be approved. I would propose that VCE should be a private, for profit organization (and suspect that will be the case if the IRS truly examines their non-profit request).

Wouldn’t that be an interesting conundrum… 1.35+ million worth of checks to VCE and their non-profit status doesn’t get approved. We need to slow down and see the certificate before writing any checks.

TOT money or not it is still PWC money and that of it’s taxpayers. I’m sorry, but I’m not convinced 9 days of events of the 150th Anniversary of the First Battle of Manassas will bring us huge returns for years to come. They are asking for this money for the First Battle of Manassas and will more than likely ask again when it’s 150th Anniversay of the the Second Battle of Manassas is upon us.

Of course there are always “certain” people privy to information, but that doesn’t mean they are right. Those in the know will still put thier spin on it. I take comments on blogs as personal opinions, not neccessarily fact. There are some facts, but for the most parts it’s just opinions….and we all have them.

I love how PWC taxpayer has made such assumptions as to the employers of posters here. That has NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand. One could make an assumptions as to their employer or what board they might be a memeber of.

@ Opinion

Will you will agree that a non-profit – acting in a partnership with public agencies and the BOCS is not the same thing as a for-profit company, acting in its own interest? Calling it a private group is a little – what was the word – disingenuous. For the record, an MOU with the County is required, with transparancy requirements, above and beyond IRS and VDT requirements. Could the County kill the goose that is now positioned to lay the golden egg – you bet – but to who’s advantage. A 501c3 has peculinary gains provisions or to the public agencies that clearly want all of that TOT funding directly. Killing this idea does not seem to me to help the local hotels and restruants, who would benefit from increased tourism spend or the construction industry if that stimulated economic growth. How does killing this multi-event proposal – which will pay for itself, pay for the set up of future revenue generating events (2nd Manassas, ect, ) return money to the County and relieve those public agencies and the County of at least a large part of their current capital funding from the general fund help County residents?

Not sure what your views on economic development and growthg are – can’t tell – but I have been around a long time and fully support controlled and limited growth. One of the reasons I favor this proposal is that it seems to me that we can open up a new source of revenue without trading off the land, and expenses for schools (the County’s dominate expense)or roads. Yes, we should have more traffic during the event – but that is generally short term and not competitive with the week-day commuter traffic. More to the point, how can this proposal conflict with the growth of highpaying techncal jobs? It is and should be a multi-pronged approach to economic and tax revenue growth. And as to Disney, this is nothing close to that. This is not an effort to build a for-profit on the battlefield. From the get-go the principles here are different – and the County is being asked much, much less in terms of long term tax and investment seed incentives. Not even close.

We are not going to agee on this. You guys can argue with the BOCS on how to cut the already constrained pie all day long – while the rest of us resist an increase in our taxes – particularly now. I think the BOCS will have to answer to the hotel and restruant community for any decison killing this proposal – it really is their taxed investment money. I view this as an opportunity to increase the pie for minimal to no risk. Apparantly most of you do not see it that way. I see it as a win-win, you see it as a diversion from bigger government growth, control & funding.

Those of you who have argued – let the private sector do it and give all the funds to public agencies have your own agendas. As a public employee, it is not about accountability. But, lets be clear– if this proposal fails to pass muster by the BOCS, the County will lose out on those significant new revenues. Are you going to replace them – how? The big events can and have been done by the private sector. Indeed, significant large scale and successful reenactments of 1st Manassas, have been done everywhere but Manassas and PWC over the past 50 years. The 145th, for example, was done at Cedar Creek and had 10,000 reenactors and can be done there again in 2011, 2012, 2013 and beyond. The message will have been recieved by the reenactor community that PWC – like Spotsylvania – is not interested in their history and will go elsewhere. Gettysburg is laughing at us and hoping we do not do this – there is land avaialble there too to do 1st Manassas. I am a history buff, have some sense of the underfunding that our current historical assets experience (deferred capital maintenance and operating funds) and I already pay a heck of a lot in local taxes. The loss of this investment opportunity will really tick me off as being irresponsible with my money.

Potential Golden Egg or potential for egg on their faces, the case for the latter is much easier to make. Both PWC & Manassas are not equipped to reap the potential benefits that some have predicted, Lafayette, you are correct, that ship sailed long ago when the BOCS chose to favor vast tracts of residential housing over more prudent development patterns. There are too few support services ie: hotels, decent restaurants, etc. to realize the benefits (thus Fairfax with it plethora of options would likely be the prime beneficiary) and there is neither the time, funding or space to construct new facilities in time to realize additional benefits. As a result, if pursued on the scale suggested, all we would likely get are more souvenir shacks, short term business ventures, unsustainable fast food restaurants, fireworks stands and flood of carneys and unskilled laborers whose principal contributions would likely be detailed in the weekly police report and realized as the gene pool got shallower (now theres a scary thought with regard to future BOCS members).

Having followed this thread for a couple of days, it strikes me that those few strident supporters sound an awful lot like those chamber members who arrive in masse to public hearings, monopolizing the first hour with repetitive statements about how more flexibility and more options must be allowed (see Comp Plan Land Use hearings, 24 Centers, etc.) in order for growth and economic development to be realized. Interestingly, the only thing I see come of this, as reported by Mr. Briley in this reports, are more Starbucks and barristas that either can’t afford to live in the county or live in Mom’s basement.

PWC taxpayer,
History buff? HA!! Where were you when there were reenactments at Ben Lomond Park and Long Park both parks are county parks. You fail to realize the Manassas battlefield is just that it’s our battlefield, and nobody can take that away from us.

Well, it seems to me if we are going to have the increase in traffic you speak of for a few days, then I’m inclided to believe the tourist dollars won’t be around much longer than the extra traffic. One day of traffic in No. Va. will have them hitting the highway back to their homes. They’ll be saying “get me out of here”. Again, if there were real tourist dollars to be made off of the Manassas Battlefield it would’ve been done long ago.

@PWC taxpayer
PWC Taxpayer, you bring up some interesting points and valuable insight to the discussion. Thank you. In answer to your question, “Will you will agree that a non-profit – acting in a partnership with public agencies and the BOCS is not the same thing as a for-profit company, acting in its own interest?” I would have to say yes, I agree with that proposition.

I assume your argument is in support of the idea and not necessarily in support specifically of VCE. My question to you is if in fact this is a good idea that passes muster after due diligence and analysis, why should Prince William County engage in what effectively is a non-competitive, sole source “contract” to compete with the organization responsible for event planning at the expense of perhaps better qualified and more cost effective options? It is my understanding that the PWC CVB has already been working very hard to do many of the things that Mr. Owen presented to the board. Should the PWC CVB determine that assistance is required, I would assume that an RFP would be prepared and that the work would be competed among qualified companies. There are companies that specialize in events management. Competition will ensure that the businesses of Prince William County (those hotels, restaurants, etc. get the best, most cost effective approach to supporting the Sesquicentennial. I assume that’s what you want… the BEST event management for Prince William County… correct?

Should this task be awarded sole source without competition, I would suspect protests would quickly follow. Considering the IT scandal from which the County is still recovering, I’m sure that questions over sole source contract awards of this type are something they would want to (for very good reasons) avoid. If one buys into the proposition this is a good idea (and I’m not sure I do at the moment), it should be competed.

You have proposed a lofty vision. If, after careful analysis and due diligence, that vision is validated with data I would propose it is worth considering. The “problem” with lofty visions such is this is the law of unintended consequences. In fact, right now we neither know if your vision is close to reality nor what the impact will be on the community and the daily lives of Prince William County’s residents. The revenue projections are speculative at best. It’s a math problem. County leadership and staff needs to do the math.

I just suggest (particularly to our Chairman and County Supervisors) that we slow down a bit and think about this before rushing to judgment. Based upon what I have seen and heard to date, I see no reason to transfer public money to a private enterprise to perform tasks that a public agency is as already doing or tasked to do.

That’s just my opinion.

My comments to the Prince William County Board of County Supervisors on 15 December 2009

Mr Chairman, Members of the Board of County Supervisors,

I’m here to comment on Mr. Creston Owen’s presentation last Tuesday, 8 December, on behalf of Virginia Civil War Events Inc. and that organization’s vision for Prince William County. I listened to the video twice to make sure I understood the message. Mr. Owen articulated a vision of tourism as the future for Prince William County. I listened carefully as he shared estimates of increased volumes for area attractions… phenomenal numbers…. I think he wants to triple the attendance at the Marine Corps museum. I was particularly struck by the fact that he emphasized how lucky we were to live on I95 and I66 mentioning with pride that I95 is the busiest highway in the Country.

How many of you commute to or from D.C. or Tyson’s Corner on I95 or I66 between 5:00-10:00 or 2:00-7:00 every day? How many have been on I95 or I66 on Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, or other holidays? …summer vacation?

I’m here on behalf of those folks who commute today… most Prince William County residents. I suggest that perhaps making Prince William County a permanent tourist attraction may not be the most prudent tactical decision. We are a bedroom community with a transportation infrastructure already operating at maximum capacity. VDOT is broke. There will be no road investments for a long time. The “unintended consequences” of a decision to make Prince William County a tourist destination and the transition to a tourist based economy would probably be the collapse of our transportation infrastructure for our residents and an embarrassment to our County when word got out just how difficult it is to get into and out of the county.

I checked our comprehensive plan. There’s nothing about tourism. In fact, the opening statement is, “The Comprehensive Plan for Prince William County contains a clear strategy for responsible, fiscally-sound growth to produce a vibrant, prosperous, stable, ‘livable’ community. The Plan encourages new opportunities for high-end housing and targeted economic development that will strengthen the County’s tax base and balance existing housing and economic activities.” I searched for the word Tourism… nada.

This vision Mr. Owen articulated last Wednesday is a change. It is perhaps a permanent change in the nature and character of Prince William County. This is a change that does not appreciate the reality that for the foreseeable future most of our resident clogs I95 & I66 every morning and every evening to take care to get to and from their jobs. It does not factor in the impact of adding thousands of tourists to I95 and I66 on a year round basis. This is a change that probably will make Prince William County a much less “livable” community.

I strongly recommend that we do not look to tourism for our economic growth and future and stick with the current comprehensive plan. I was a professional soldier for twenty-two years. I understand battlefields. I certainly understand the need for a dignified Sesquicentennial event; however, let’s not turn this event into an opportunity to transition Prince William County into a tourist attraction.

Mr. Alborn,
Thank you for writing the letter and taking your time to address the board this evening. My husband and I both agreed with your comments. Well done.

@Lafayette
You’re welcome. It struck me that none of our Supervisors, staff, or perhaps the principals in this initiative are actually aware of what a nightmare our roads are for commuters. Making Prince William County into a tourist attraction would turn the nightmare into “hell on earth” for our residents.

@PWC taxpayer
I have to ask, PW taxpayer, do you commute to Tyson’s or D.C. every day? It changes your perspective if you do.

Anyone who does not want tourism dollars here in PWC is not looking at the big picture. Tourism money helps alleviate tax burden on the residents of a jurisdiction. Tourists alone are not going to clog your roads any more than residents in Stafford or Fauquier Counties already do now on their way to and from work. To bring businesses here (for the tax revenue and to provide LOCAL jobs) you have to have a well balanced community with all sources of revenue and culture…yes, I said it…a community with some heritage and culture. Bringing tourists here is a great idea and it fuels economic growth to help pay for our schools, roads etc… If it was just PWC residents eating at the local restaurants, then there wouldn’t be many places to eat. We can not live in a box with walls around our border. We should give people a great product, invite them here and let the local tax base reap the benefits. Go to Virginia Tourism Council for all the stats on tourism and heritage tourism. Look at Orlando (no, I do not advise we become Orlando) but their taxes are low because of the TOURISM.

I understand your frustration with the road network..but that fight is with zoning and allowing rampant development occur…NOT bringing tourists to visit the County. They come, they spend their money here and then they go home. Perfect. I just hope that the BOS doesnt give a private group public money to make that happen when they already have agencies in place to do that (CVB).

Hmmm….tourism isn’t even mentioned in the comprehensive plan? Why the heck not?

Call me a dreamer, but I like Mr. Owen’s vision.

But Al, you are right that we need the infrastructure to support that vision.

@manassaman
So far, all of the data I have seen has been hypothetical. I have nothing against tourism. It’s the scale proposed that I consider risky. Orlando was engineered from the ground up as a tourist destination. We will have to be retrofitted (and there’s no money for a road retrofit). I would suggest a VDOT traffic analysis using the tourist traffic projected by Mr. Owen as part of the County’s due diligence process.

It’s a math problem… let’s do the math.

manassasman, Orlando wasn’t much before Disney. I was very much in favor of Disney coming to PWC. It was a proven money maker and it would have been much better than the Vinyl Villages we have one after the other that we have today in the western end of the county. Those houses meant thousands of students that need to be educated and more commuters on our roads daily(not just during the vacation season). However, a once in a lifetime event doesn’t equate to this being “the place” to vacation for years to come. Furthermore, we do not have a full service hotel in the county.

We have a lot to offer in the county of historical significance, but the tourists have not flocked to our fair county. Has anyone seen a tour bus rolling through Brentsville proper to tour the old courthouse, one room school house, and jail? Of course the jail is not in proper repair to handle visitors, but it did host the Ghost Hunter’s tv series.

Tour buses most definately go to Potomac Mills and it’s is situated right off of 95. I don’t think buses going to BenLomond are tour buses. They are mostly summer camp programs bring their “campers” for the day. I think that’s slightly different.Those buses do come from all around the region though. Then on any given day but especially on the weekends most of the cars had MD plates on them. Of course when it was just a public pool in a public park we did not have that extra traffic. They sure didn’t widen Sudley Manor for the extra traffic during the summer months.

There’s NO Swimming at Silver Lake, for now anyways.

Actually, tour buses do come to PWC historic areas…Manassas Battlefield, Marine Corps Museum and yes…even the smaller historic sites. I am not for a one time splash, I think with good investment tourism can be a bigger player in PWC. Not the CW mecca of Gettysburg, that’s just not going to happen. But increasing tourism is a good business decision and will help in adding money to the govt. budget, without taking it out of the pockets of constituents. Thats why I dont agree with spending a large amount of County money on a nine day reenactment event….but in a sustained commemoration for four years to sustain good tourism and proper programs. Anyway, guess we will have to wait till January to see what happens

@manassaman
Actually, I think Manassasman captured my feelings rather succinctly in his last post. I’m not against tourism in general and consider it a source of revenue worth developing. I am against changing the focus of Prince William County to tourism and turning the County into a major tourist destination. That’s not in our current comprehensive plan and shouldn’t be the emphasis of the next version (IMHO).

My objection is a matter of scale.

I understand what you are saying, but most of these people who would travel here would actually visit the entire NoVa region…NOT just PWC. I dont see a problem with that. If they come here and have lunch or dinner, that’s good for our businesses.

And yes, some will stay at our hotels…I guess you think heritage tourists travel like Donald Trump? Most are families who dont want a five star place to stay. The Hampton or Holiday Inn is just fine. I am really surprised by the negativity towards tourism. I guess we all just want to say “Stay out of PWC” and pay higher personal property taxes and not encourage economic development? Trust me, money from tourism is a lot smarter, reliable (top three in Virginia industries) than building more houses and waiting on real estate taxes…Lets learn from that mistake. No, we are not Gettysburg and the boat has sailed on creating a pastoral landscape, that does not preclude making money off of visiting tourists. Whether anything gets passed or not, these people will be here in 2011 (many are already coming, tourism in PWC is up 15% over last year!). You can complain about traffic and the hotels, but these people are coming. Lets give them a good lasting image of PWC. I think we all can agree with that!

I’m guessing we will be one of those places people just pass through on their way do D.C., Disneyland, or someplace else. A quick off and on I66 and you’re on your way (which is in itself an issue, since I95 is the real tourist route). We just aren’t set up as a destination and as charming as our community is I don’t think folks are going to spend the day trying to find our many treasures.

Tourist think: Once you’ve seen the battlefield, you’ve seen the battlefield.

Our greatest weakness and principal reason for people just passing through on their way to other locations is the lack of a Stuckey’s. Who needs hotels, just think of the revenue generated by peanut brittle sales alone.