Manassas Council to spend $100K on Civil War Anniversary
The Manassas City Council voted Wednesday to spend $100,000 on the upcoming 150th anniversary of the First Battle of Manassas. The 150th anniversary of the first major engagement of the Civil War will take place around the week of July 21, 2011.
The City hopes to bring in revenue and position itself for long term tourism. Creston M. Owen, chairman of the board of Virginia Civil War Events Inc. plans to organize 9 days worth of events. He came before the board on Wednesday to ask for money.
According to the News and Messenger:
Owen’s outfit of volunteers is poised to begin organizing the nine-day commemoration that is set to include a Blue and Gray Ball at the Candy Factory, a re-enactment of the First Manassas, breakfast with the troops and concerts on the lawn of the Manassas Museum and at the Battlefield.
Owen told the council that it’s time to get started if the aim is to educate and attract the crowds that will generate income and put the area on the map.
“We’re only 18 months away. If we don’t start beating the drum now, we won’t get people here,” Owen told the council.
Owen has also met with the Prince William delegation of the Virginia General Assembly and hopes to get a million dollars from the state for this 9-day event. To date nothing has been heard publically about the Prince William County involvement in the commemoration of the sesquicentennial or about their plans to infuse money into this venture.
Already citizens are cheering for their home town. However, an equally strong set of boos are being heard because of the recession, extremely tight municiple budgets, and basically, a Tea Party mentality. Is this something that the local governments ought to be supporting or is this an event better handled by private enterprise?
“Is this something that the local governments ought to be supporting or is this an event better handled by private enterprize?”
Everyone should support it in partnership, and I’m glad to see people with vision taking the lead and being proactive. 18 months is not a long time – it goes very quickly when you’re planning an enormous event like this will be.
This is quite an undertaking for a small group of volunteers. It brings up quite a few questions. Is this not unlike the large infusion of tax dollars to aid the local economy that the federate government undertook earlier this year, i.e. a stimulus package? The recent election in Va. seemed to have a theme of fiscal conservatisim. Why no solicitation of public input before taxpayer money was committed? Is a small group of private citizens qualified to organize an event of this magnitude? With the City of Manassas commiting $100,000, PWC being asked for $250,000 and the State of Va. $1,000,000, who will be calling the shots?
These questions should be answered before public moneys are committted. Remember, PWC cut the school budget drastically last year. Manassas City layed off workers last year. The State of Va, is running a massive budget deficit currently. The benefits are potentially great, but if they are not realized as projected, we will be paying for a mistake for years to come. It’s and risk-reward scenario.
The questions this proposal brings up are too many to list at this time, but should be asked if we are to move foreward. I’m very concerned about the fact that this plan was conceived outside the public view,announced on Monday, then voted on by the City Council on Monday night with little or no input from local tax payers. I agree that 18 months is not a long time but a few more weeks to answer questions would not have hurt.
$100K is a small investment. I’m guessing they will more than make up for it with taxes and revenue generated for local businesses and publicity for Prince William and Virginia tourism over the long run. Even in tough times, you have to spend money to make money.
Ivan, while I understand and appreciate your comments about oversight; $100K just isn’t enough money to solicit public comment, etc. That would put an unnecessary overhead “tax” on an already small sum perhaps doubling the actual cost. We elect people to make decisions such as this. I say let them.
The recent Va state elections were all about public-private partnerships and the ability of state and local governments to multiply their limited resources through such agreements. Its much harder to do that for education – given the unions opposition to these agreements and charter schools or, say, in the police department, but, as I read this it is about a long term investment and recurring events that will bring more visitors to Manassas and the County. My sense is that there will be short term stimulus to the local restruant and hotel industry but as this thing goes out into the future and the seed money is long forgotten – the benefits will continue and expand to the construction and trade industry too , oh and to the Museum and the historical folks. Owen is going to need paid police support, fire/rescue support and other logistics. The web-site says they are committed to use “all proceeds” for historic preservation and education – which means we may not need public funds for some projects in the out years, if these events are successful. That would make this money cheap. Oversight yes, but do it. Ask Gettysburg if this is a bad idea economically. They have been doing it annually for years. There aree folks who know how to do this.
It’s like Jamestown 400 — the visitors are coming whether we plan anything or not. But they’re not going to stay and spend their money or look at Manassas/Prince William as a great place to live or relocate a business to if we have nothing to do once they get here.
This group wants to proactively orchestrate coordinated events, and from their Web site, I recognize the names on the board as people who have given a lot of their time to promote business opportunities in the city/county, and I’ve heard those names repeatedly in the 28 years I’ve lived here. I don’t think they’re going to take the $50,000 the Council advanced them and throw it out the window. They live here too, and are very invested in making our city/county a success.
If you don’t have a group like this, then you’re going to have a circus like the t-shirt and chocolate vendors outside the courthouse during one of Manassas’ other great tourist attractions.
I would love to see the group encourage CAPAC to bring back another production of Lawrence Dulin’s play about Jennie Dean. They performed it several times in 2006, and then they performed it at Harpers Ferry for a commemoration event of the 100th anniversary of the Niagara Movement. Several relatives of Ms. Dean were in attendance at the Manassas peformances.
Here’s a link to the presentation to the PWBOS called “Of the Students, By the Students, For the Students”. They show what the students did for Harper’s Ferry and their celebration of the 150th Anniversary.
http://pwcgov.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=275
I really hope they get the grant money and partner with the county for this project. If this project moves forward they would also do the same for the Second Battle of Manassas. They are some requirements for the grant money based free/reduced lunches and Stonewall Middle would be the school to work on this project. The National Park Service will certainly be promoting the Anniversary, and they had a very postive responses to the Hollowed Ground project.
Last weekend while going through old stuff at my mom’s, I found a program in mint condition of the celebration of the 100th Anniversary. I’m going to start reading it this weekend. Needless to say being a Manassas native I was absolutely ecstatic with my historical find.
Those rascally acronyms again. What is CAPAC again?
I think it is definitely appropriate to ask about the private sector financing the venture in light of the Tea Party hysteria that has taken over the country. Much of the criticism has been about government doing things that the private sector should be doing.
Additionally, there is the county and the state that needs to kick in. Is there any such thing as a cost analysis floating about?
I think most of the grousing I have heard is because citizens feel they had no opportunity to give input.
I feel like I moved away for 20 years and just came back to the area. Cindy and Chris, can you provide us with a little background? Where does the student thing fit in?
Is there a separate 150th committee for the county, for the battlefield park, for the city?
Who is heading the student grant project? Too bad there are restrictions on who would get the grant tied to poverty. There is something about that stipulation that stinks.
Here’s CAPAC’s site: http://www.capacweb.org
Here’s more info on the student project: http://www.hallowedground.org
Here’s Creston Owen’s group: http://www.virginiacivilwarevents.org
Now, if I can just learn to say and spell ses-qui-cen-ten-nial.
Did it!
Gotta run – last minute stuff for the City’s Neighborhood Conference tomorrow. If anyone wants to help volunteer to set up today, come to the Boys & Girls Club behind Jennie Dean School off Wellington at 1 pm.
Yes, Moon the grant money is based on at least 40% reduced/free lunches. I’m not fond of that of that, and certainly don’t like the fact that it’s the middle for my neighborhood.
This project really is about preservation. It engages our students in our history, and brings a new perspective on the Civil War. The partnership will be with VDOE, National Park Service, PWC (BoS and School Board). It’s only a $13,000 committment per year on the part of the BOS.
This is an excellent opportunity for kids to be involved and work with others from all walks of life within their community.
Harper’s Ferry was a pilot program. It’s their hope to further extend the project to all of the parks within the Journey Through Hollowed Ground. The bi-way was dedicated for this in the middle October. Then they would like to extend this program thoughout the nation.
Thank you to Supervisor Stirrup for supporting this project. I think this an excellent opportunity for our county and it’s students.
You really should look at the presentation and see what the kids did in Harper’s Ferry.
Opinion, I see what you are saying, but $100,000 is two teachers, firemen or police officers. When you are dealing with the jobs of our residents I think some deliberation is called for. Additionally, didn’t the County close down a Senior Citizens center laast year in budget cuts? Priorities, Priorities
I have looked at it. I have more time though than many of our contributors.
It looked to me like all 8 supervisors not only supported the project but also suspended the rules and voted to pick up this initiative.
I am tired of grants going to quota schools. It doesn’t seem right that Bull Run and Marstellar would be ineligible to even apply because they don’t have enough students on free lunch.
I have no problem with the free lunch program, don’t get me wrong. Hungry kids don’t learn.
I have a problem with it being the end all be all as a standard. Its intent originally was to feed hungry kids who don’t have the money for lunch (and breakfast). The program is misused to indicate who gets title I services and all sorts of other things. For instance, we now have the distinct impression that Stonewall Middle is a ‘poor kid school.’ Why? Number of students qualifying for free or reduced lunch is a matter of public record. It is used to label students, schools, neighborhoods, counties.
Lafayette, how much was the cost of the western senior center? Why do I want to say $140k?
The rules needed to be suspended the grant application was due 10/30/09.
The “poor kid school”..sigh
I agree with the free lunch program being the deciding factor. I think it really could’ve been best determined by some sort of competition for “the gig”. Free lunch is abused like every other program. Don’t get me started. I do not want kids to go hungry.
Great…now something to make my blood boil!! The cost was about $150K. That was not completely funded by the county. The center was a shared service with the two cities that they paid for.
@Moon-howler
@IVAN
You know, we are both “right”. Like all things, its a matter of perspective. My thinking is that the publicity, tourism, taxes on the revenue generated by the event, and good will over the long haul will be good for the County and generate far more than the modest investment that we are talking about. That return will help pay for all of the things you mention.
Like the stock market, there’s no guarantee… and no wrong answers. It’s a bit of a risk; however, I think its a good one. It’s like the folks who invest in bonds instead of stocks… less risk, less reward, higher P of a return on your investment. Neither investment is incorrect.
The price of a protracted debate (they cost quite a bit) vice simply letting elected officials do what they were elected to do drives up the cost of everything at the expense of those things you mentioned.
Does anyone know how PWBOCS stands on this issue? They won’t meet until next Tues. Will Corey take the lead from his buddy Greg and say no?
I would like to see some projected figures. How much do 9 day events like proposed (???) bring in? I have no idea. Some people have compared Manassas to Gettysburg. Not even close.
All sorts of money has been poured into Gettysburg for years, starting with the year the North won that battle. It was the defining battle of the Civil War, if the history books are to be believed. He who wins gets to write the history books. Just the Gettysburg Address puts that battlefield on the map in indelible ink.
A small comparison of battlefields leaps out at the casual observer. Contrast Sharpsburg/Antietam to Manassas. Manassas looks like the stepchild. And the reason is obvious. It looks like Fredericksburg, the Wilderness, Spotsylvania, etc. All those battlefields lay in ‘enemy territory’ and didn’t get the immediate attention and money infused. Also there were fewer of them ‘up North.’ (battlefields that is) The up-keep and number of markers/monuments is considerably more noticable than Manassas.
I have lived most of my life near battlefields. Perhaps I just accept them as part of the scenery.
M-H, its not on their agenda for Tuesday. That being said, its hard to say where Corey will fall on the issue as based on his past actions I could make an arguement for him taking either side of the issue.
You have however hit on several critical points:
1. Manassas is not Gettysburg, the infrastructure and administrative supporting built around history is not present in Manassas (now if we were celebrating strip malls it would be a different story).
2. How much do 9 day events like proposed (???) bring in? EXACTLY, experience shows that such tourism dollars are dramatically impacted by the state of the economy, price of gas, location in terms of alternative forms of entertainment ie: Williamsburg/Busch Gardens and other such unpredictable things as weather (it would be held during hurricane season) or the unexpected, fear of a pandemic, large scale construction projects that tie up interstates, act of terrorism, etc.
Looking at it from a strictly fiscal angle, it is a risky proposition at best if the jurisdictions hope to recover costs in the near or long term. The only immediate (within one fiscal year) financial benefits would be from BPOL at the end of the tax year and meals tax revenues in the case of the City. Given that a large amount of those projected “tourism” dollars would be spent outside of PWC (we don’t have an adequate supply of hotel space) it is conceivable that Fairfax might benefit more than PWC. Morevoer, given that it is billed as a one off event, the notion that it will attract businesses to Manassas/PWC is ludicrous at best. The only upside I see is a short term bump for those businesses in Old Town, it might keep some failing businesses alive for some length of time but will likely only delay the inevitable.
@Moon-howler
Your points are well taken. I would hope that the Manassas City Council did a bit of cost/benefit analysis before approving the 100K. The answers to your questions might just be a FOIA away.
A cost/benefit (urk, choked on my lunch) analysis, before the expenditure is considered? In PWC or Manassas, are you joking? There’s too much of a potential for immediate “positive” PR to be passed up by most our local electeds in the name of fiscal responsiblity, if it sounds good and is presented by the most upstanding elements of our community it must be good, debate and common sense be damned, vote in favor of it immediately. Believe me when I say I know of what I speak in this regard, been there done that.
Heaven help me! I’m finding myself in agreement with mom on a couple of things.
I agree completely that this event will NOT attract businesses to PWC or CoM.
The “tourism” money would only be for a short period of time, and during a time that we already have a few “tourism” bucks coming into the county. We will always be at a disadvantage in PWC for real tourism money, until we get a full service hotel here. We have many historical sites in the county that don’t get promoted often enough. However, it’s a little hard to promote something when you are NOT equipped to handle it. It’s too easy for someone to stay in Fairfax County at one of their many full service hotels and be closer to DC and it’s many FREE attractions.
Celebrate Strip Malls…LMAO!!!
Having thought about it a little bit, I do sense an opportunity for some enterprising entreprenuer, much like Kramer’s bus tour on Seinfeld.
It would start with a trip east on 66 from Haymarket during the morning rush hour to give the tourists a real feel for the Capital region, exit onto Route 28 for a quick trip to the site where the infamous Bobbit member was found, followed by a loop through the used car lots of Liberia Avenue, then a trip down to see Mr. Fernandez’s sign, then a photo op with Supervisor Covington to make the vertically challenged feel better about themselves, a bag lunch with Supervisor Nohe at his favorite barbershop, followed by a scenic trip through the Linton Hall corridor to experience planning at it finest, a quick bathroom break at the restroom trailers Brentsville High School, and then a glimpse of the lake you are forbidden to use by the City, ending with a crawl up 29 back to Haymarket.
@Mom
PWC… I would expect staff to do a bit of work (and I watch these things closer than most). Manassas, I can’t say and will defer to your experience. People tend to get the Government they deserve… ’tis a pity.
Am I dreaming (a strong possibility) or is Potomac Mills Mall one of the biggest tourist attractions (if not the biggest) in Virginia? I would love what kind of tax revenues it generates (I’m talking business tax revenue). I’m guessing small businesses don’t agree with your assessment regarding tourist dollars; however, I don’t have the data to support it (although I’m guessing a FOIA request would clear things up if someone cared enough).
@Mom
I’m in tears!! You really hit the hot spots. The bus could be wrapped in ads. The first one being eat in PWC, there’s no meal tax.
Position itself for long term tourism? What exactly are tourists going to do? It’s not like we have Disney up here…
I guess tourists can go check out the sprawl that sprang up where Disney was going to be.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate our battlefields, but I don’t really see PWC as a tourist hot-spot. 100k isn’t much in the grand scheme of things, but that would’ve purchased around 30 cameras for police vehicles.
Mando our proximity to DC makes us a tourist destination spot of sorts. I certainly don’t feel our historical spots in the county are enough to attract real tourism dollars. It costs way more to stay in the city or closer.
I so wish we had Disney America over what we got instead. Disney would’ve brought money to the area and instead we got big houses built on top of each other in new neighborhoods that have kids that need an education as other county services. The county really missed the boat with Disney America. Disney would have created jobs the new houses only created jobs while they were being built. I have a pin promoting the should have been park on my desk. Not a day goes by that I don’t think about that lost opportunity for the county.
MOM, you left off dumping all your trash from the day off at the Silver Lake trash recepticals, which do NOT exist.
I am trying to picture Manassas as a tourist attraction. It isn’t happening. I branch out a little to include PWC. Potomac Mills. (MY idea of hell but that is irrelevant.) I know lots of buses come into the area bringing shoppers. Splashdown attracts some charter buses also. The battlefield seems to attract the more serious types, the ones who wouldn’t show up on a tour bus.
Perhaps I am just not seeing something.
@Moon-howler
No trash recepticals? WTF?
There could also, be a night time bus tour to Ben Lomond house and then through the dark unlit streets of Sudley to Ben Lomond(SD to newcomers). Once at Ben Lomond they could light torches for a walk through the woods to Bull Run.
There are a gazillion Civil War buffs out there, and a lot of them have plenty of money to travel. Why wouldn’t they come here, the very place the Civil War began? Look how many battlefields we have here in addition to Manassas Museum. These are all untapped resources.
PWC could be a prime tourist attraction. Plus, it is cheaper to stay here and easy to access Washington DC, as someone else pointed out.
Why can’t we have travel agents pushing Civil War vacation packages? How about American History packages? How about 19th Life packages? Let’s use some creativity. There’s no reason PWC and Manassas can’t have thriving tourism the way Williamsburg does.
I’m also thinking George Mason. Get some dorms out here and some history majors. “Attend college in historic PWC.” Set the landscape and tone so we “look” historic in a variety of area. You don’t have to have all 19th century buildings to do that.
Old Town Manassas is gorgeous! Everything about it says “history.” In addition to Manassas Museum, there’s the Candy Factory, the Kramer Center and the cute little shops. Look how many people come out for the damn fireworks. You’re telling me more people would come out for those than for a huge Civil War event?
We have the opportunity to attract a different crowd. Trust me, people who have money to buy Civil War garb have money to travel here. And they have a different outlook as well as education.
Screw the Disney Corporate Scum. All they do is rip off families. (No offense Lafayette and others.)
And I didn’t even get into the history Buckland and Bull Run Mountains areas offer.
How about some fun tours? BRMC is offering a historic house tour this weekend. There’s Chapman’s Mill.
And how about some ghoulish tours? Tour old cemeteries and hunt for ghosts. Remember Ghost Hunters coming to Brentsville? Why not play off of that? Get the word out nationally.
Pinko,
I have many history buffs in my family. I will have three guests here from Harrisonburg and WVa.. They will be sleeping and eating at my house. They will save their money to purchase memorabilia.
Disney only rips off those that choose to spend their money there. I think a lot of the builders and land barrons ripped off people in the county. No offense taken, but I will always wish we had Disney over the houses that got thrown up in record time.
Pinko, in the words of a long time family friend in Brenstville proper..”I’ve yet to see a tour bus roll through to visit the courthouse in Brentsville”. I’m not sure the Ghost Hunters’ episode will increase the likelihood of tour buses in Brentsville proper.
Yeah, well I hate the Vinyl Villages as well. But I can’t afford to spend $700 to get my family into two parks.
But let’s get back to tourism. I am not expert, but I do know tourism isn’t all about hotels. Admissions fees, shows, memorabilia, car rentals, photos are all part of it. And people will want to buy drinks when they are walking around, even if they are eating off site.
And think of the huge horse communities we have here. “Kids, dress up in Civil War clothes and be part of the cavalry. Ride a cavalry horse for $15.00.” There would be some seriously long lines for that.
It seems to me investing in this kind of stuff would be well worth it for the 150th and in the future.
If we get a reputation as a cool place to be, we might see more kids coming from out of state for educational field trips.
@Lafayette
The key word is “yet.” And if it’s part of a larger tour, then yes, you would see tour buses.
One of the issues is that the parks are not working together to improve tourism. They are all concerned with their little piece of the historic pie in some ways, for whatever reason. But if all the parks get together and start thinking of this area as THE place to be–not as just one or two parks–then we have something going. But this takes cooperation between County, City and national parks. I don’t know if there’s a commission or anything on local parks of all kinds, but there should be. If all the parks are operating in a vacuum, nothing will grow the way it can and should.
Manassas is not some place that nobody’s heard about. I think if it were seen as “cool place” we would not be having this discussion.
I like your dress up and ride a horse idea. I’m far more supportive of the student project than public funds being spent on a venture we have no idea what it will really bring to the county and city for this event. Frankly, I think those that started the non-porfit should put their money where their mouth is and cough up some of their bucks, and encourage the private sector and locally businesses to support this event. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any public funds spent on it, but I do think it should be minimal. There really is no way to project the revenue for a one time event such as this. Now, I might feel a little differently come the 150th celebration of the Second Battle of Manassas, because we will hopefully have some numbers from the First Battle’s anniversary.
M-H, the trash receptacles may not exist but the acres of clear cut and graded land yards away from the lake (for the middle school site) do now exist. Sigh, the park lasted for less than a month in its intended state before our screwed up county and school board administrators screwed it up. Might just as well put in another money losing golf course and be done with it. The side benefit to that, at least in Wally’s mind, would be the draining of the water table and thus the necessity of extending sewer and water into the Rural Crescent. Yes, I am being snarky today.
I am all for this expense. The Civil War is in right now. We even have governors talking about starting a new one. But seriously the war is part of our history and as a theme it is a tourist attraction and provides Manassas with a lot of character.
Besides, the $100,000 cost to taxpayers is a heck of a lot less than Jackson Miller’s “Redefine The Family and Be Anti-immigrant For a While to Get Elected to Higher Office Act.”. What’s the exact difference in taxpayer dollars? Anyone know?
I would be less gung ho about using PWC taxdollars obviously. We’ve spent way too much on “Anti-Immigrant To Get to Higher Office” legislation already, and we didn’t even get anyone into higher office.
ummm, I think the Civil War buffs already know about Manassas. This isn’t going to be a discovery process for them.
Reality check.
You guys have your head in the clouds.
I’m sure the kids are going to pick the Manassas Battlefield over Bush Gardens when it comes time for that summer getaway.
And Civil War buffs are already aware of Bull Run and Manassas.
Witness, what higher office is Jackson Miller aspiring to? I must have missed that one. Corey yes. Jackson Miller..haven’t heard about it.
Pinko, PWC lost out big time when Disney withdrew its plan. In the first place, Disney would have been responsible for improvements that the county inherited. Additionally, the kids that came to it would be spending money, not needing to be educated.
It would have brought jobs into the area. As it turned out, we lost land that went into the federal park system. What do we now have? Miles and miles of traffic and miles and miles of housing development. I would rather be taxing Disney. At the time I had mixed feelings.
MOM, yes, it is all graded. The sounds of the grading machines are …overpowering. Yes, passive recreation lasted a month. Now we are plotting how to spoil the area.
I would just like to see some bear proof recepticals out there. That is just smart if the county doesn’t want it all trashed up.
I don’t know who this Owen guy is and kudos to him for wanting to drum up interest, but, like the 150th anniversary says, the battlefield has been here for 150 years. Unless he’s clairvoyant like Kevin Costner’s character in Field of Dreams, $100k or $1 mil, I don’t see them coming.
Build a Disney, then I’ll be a little more confidant.
Let’s play a little game called “what if”. There is a new Performing Arts Center being built out at George Mason Un. I attented a concert about 7 years ago where the idea of this Center was rolled out. They had blue prints, artist’s rendering of the final building and informational brochures. If my failing memory is somewhat correct, they were projecting a need to raise 14 to 20 million dollars to built this facility. Over the next 6 years the project apparently experienced some “cost overruns”. The Center is scheduled to open in May of 2010 at the cost of 56 million dollars. “What if” the commenmorative committe discovers a year from now that they will come up short on funds and comes back to the City, County and State for additional funding. Do they just say “no” and cancel the project throwing the money already appropriated down the drain. I don’t think so. The $100,000 the City has promised may turn into $200,000, $300,000 or more. Once you start down the path it’s nearly impossible to turn back. Are there any guarantees that no more money will be requested? Are there any reasonable estimate of what the overall costs of this venture will be? No. Should these questions be asked of our elected officials before money is allocated? I think so.
Mando, this is the second time today I have asked for someone to come shoot me. I agree with you.
I think the expectations need to be more realistic. I hope I am wrong. I don’t think I am though.
Must be Friday the 13th, Mando, Ivan, M-H, Lafayette and myself all roughly on the same page with nary a hint of bloodshed. All we need is GL to come and bless this unholy matrimony.
Bwaaaahahahaha I think he would want to join the unholy union. Be afraid!
Seriously. Are salaries involved? office rental? How will the ’seed money’ be spent? Who gets the money for the events? Will the jurisdictions split the profits? How will they split?
As I understand it the 501C has not yet been formed so the question of salaries is a good one but I sense only has the potential for consuming a small fraction of the funding. I would guess the the lion’s share of the money would be spent on advertising, brochures and procuring, for lack of a better term, acts. As to how the jurisdictions split the profits, easy, there are none above and beyond the usual revenues, BPOL, licenses, meals tax revenues, etc. That having been said, a large chunk of the “revenues” generated will go directly or indirectly to other entities, sales tax to the State, additional gas taxes paid by tourists to VRE, etc., etc. The only direct beneficiaries will be a subset of local businesses, principally those in Old Town and that benefit will be a very short lived one. In order for the local jurisdictions to recover the seed money, the event would have to generate something on the order of 35 million in sales of eligible goods and services to recover the money through BPOL. What has been hinted at and danced around is that the seed money is not the only true cost, staff time (I’m guessing hundreds of hours), additional PD overtime, VDOT expenses for street closures and signage (you would be amazed at how much they charge, I choke on it every year), cleanup, port-a-johns, equipment rental, grandstands for the electededs to preen on, etc., etc., etc. Of course a decent cost/benefit analysis would give you a better idea but why spend time and money on that when you are in a hurry to give away funding.
Manassas has the singular distinction of having the battle named after it because it was the closest town to the battle site. Most of the town was destroyed during the war or burned down in a fire in 1906. There are few surviving sites in the City that connect to the War. I’m afraid that the City is just going to be a “stopping off” spot on the way to the Battle Field National Park for Civil War buffs. Surely some people will shop and dine in the City, but enough to recoup the investment of $100,000? I hope no one thinks that “moon-bounces”, funnel cakes, and boths with trinkets and souvineers will convince people to come back year after year.
Civil War Christmas Boutique & Musical Moments
Saturday, November 21, 11:00 AM
11 a.m. to 7 p.m.
La Capilla Restaurant (formerly La Chapelle)
9329 Main Street
Manassas VA 20110
Local artisans and vendors offering unique holiday gifts and wares to support Manassas Museum and Prince William Symphony Orchestra. Dinner and evening musical program will also be offered. Call 571-379-8185 for more information.
Address: 9329 Main Street, Manassas, VA 20110
I know the Civil War people know about Manassas. That’s why they would want to come if there was some kind of package deal.
Incidentally, kids on school field trips usually don’t have a choice about where they go. And their teachers probably won’t bring them to Disney.
@IVAN
I think, Ivan, it would depend on what the funds were being spent on. The Performing Arts Center is a huge, permanent undertaking. A week of festivities…it’s easier to say, “Okay, let’s spend $300 on paper mache muskets.” (Wouldn’t that be weird?)
School kids should not be field tripping to Manassas. There’s so many more national monuments and treasures to enjoy downtown(DC) just 26 short miles(haha) from Manassas.. I don’t think any of the teachers in my family would’ve supported a field trip to the battlefields or Disney. They would choose our nation’s capital over Manassas, my goodness.
Mom, you are on quite the roll today. A blessing from GL…hahahhahaa!! Oh I can see that now. I don’t think of myself of having much of an imagination, but boy it is working at turbo speed with your comment.
@PAP
“it would depend on what the funds were being spent on”. That is the $64,000 question. Nobody knows and it doesn’t look like we will find out anytime soon.
@Lafayette
They could do both and save money by staying here in PWC! (You know, a really smart sales person could sell this. I’m not a smart sales person.)
@IVAN
Yeah, well they should be clear about that and the funds should be spent on specific items with a concrete price tag.
Why can’t we find out? FOIA anyone?
Where is our cartoonist when we need him/her? Can I be the wolf?? Please?
The Civil War committee would be out of the realm of FOIA. Plus there is nothing to FOIA yet.
It will be interesting to see how the BOCS handles this issue. They do check the blogs and I guess by now would rather be picking up chicken doo with their bare hands than deal with this situation–Either that or they need some solid facts before turning loose any public money.
There’s just something about that senior day care center, cop dashboard cameras, RIF for county employees and no raises that might just be like a cold shower for this initiative. The PW County folks have a long memory.
A very long memory. However, the newcomers of PWC have no idea just how long the memory of the residents is. In fact, a couple of board meetings ago, I heard the infamous “four horsemen” mentioned.
I’ve just discussed this with my husband. It is our sincere hope that county will ask some question before handing over the dough.
The county will be coughing up plenty of money in police overtime for such an event, I’m sure. This will certainly be an opportunity for the all female Equestrian Unit of the PWCPD to really strut their stuff.
I’m sure the US Park Service will have their horseys here too.
@Moon-howler
Actually, I think you’re wrong about nothing to FOIA. The Civil War Committee had to “ask” for the money. Typically, they give a few lines about what they plan to do with it. The minutes of the meeting where the decision was made will have at least a summary justification (typically). There is perhaps some discussion among City Government and perhaps even a little staff work.
If the City of Manassas Government would hand over a $100,000 check to a private group without any paperwork trail or justification, I would suggest they be disbanded immediately and folded back into Prince William County Government (and would then agree with the prevailing opinion).
I still consider $100K a reasonable investment in city tourism; however, that’s just my opinion.
With regard to a FOIA, I would hazard a guess that this has actually been brewing for quite some time. As such, I’m sure there is considerable electronic correspondence between city staff, particularly the city manager, and the individuals representing the private entity. My experience is that is often a lot of interesting and largely unknown tidbits in such correspondence.
How does one FOIA a non-government entity?
I don’t live in the City so I wouldn’t FOIA them anyway unless it directly involved me. However, they do give those of us in the county a glimpse of things to come.
You don’t FOIA the 501C, you FOIA the city and get the correspondence from them to the city as it should be public record.
As I thought. But we cannot FOIA their internal workings…just the correspondence between them and city, correct? That is the point I was trying to make to someone earlier in the day.
I don’t see a need to FOIA anyway. I assume most people are willing to give you the information you want. If they don’t, then think FOIA.
It seems as though over a hundred acres were seized in PWC very near the battlefield in part of an Iranian investigation. Many real estate holdings have been seized. I’ve just skimmed the story. I wonder if this will have any effect on the occupants’ plans to celebrate the 150th Anniversary of the First Battle of Manassas.
Full story here
http://www2.insidenova.com/isn/news/local/manassas/article/prince_william_county_land_seized_in_iran_investigation/47038/
Here’s the information on the larger tract of land in the seizure.
Parcel ID
7599-09-9717
Address
4300 ALDIE RD
State Code 600 Agr. (over 100 acres)
Tax Type 1 Reg. Taxable
Spec. Dist
Zone A1
Tax Dist 7 Evergreen
Reason 01 General Reassessment
Magisterial
Legal PCL A
RPC/Acct # 22069
Appraiser EOY
Neighborhood 3001 Manassas Battlefield Area
Acreage 138.2335
Owner (Jan 1) ALAVI FOUNDATION
Owner (Cur) ALAVI FOUNDATION
Address C/O HANIEH SAFAKAMAL
500 5TH AVE
NEW YORK, NY
Zip 101100002
Typically, administrative staff for any jurisdiction don’t qualify as “most people” or reasonable people for that matter. Take the staff at the county planning office for example, I’m sure you’ve had dealings with that lot. A lot of things happen behind closed doors and often dealings between staff and non governmental entities or individuals are kept almost on a need to know basis, often without even elected officials being apprised. The first thing any government employee should be told on hiring is never put anything in an e-mail you don’t want read back to you in open session or in court, fortunately, most staff aren’t bright enough to heed that advice or get sloppy over time. FOIA is often a great equalizer and can be a powerful tool when advocating a particular position.
But, Mom..FOIA is used and abused in the county by some. I do believe we have the right to information, but not for one’s own personal needs/gain. I frankly don’t think it’s every Tom, Dick and Harry’s business what I have to say to the government at any level. Futhermore, I wouldn’t want my personal information and thoughts to be given to the local Nosie Rosie.
Lafayette, the FOIA Queen aka Nosie Rosie has it all. She also acquires info for others who might not want everyone to know that they want to know–you know, like elected officials.
Several people have abused the FOIA right very much. They have gotten names and other personal information they are not entitled to. If I wanted to wish my supervisor a happy birthday and had my address, phone number and other information on the email, I don’t think that every Tom, Dick, Harry or Nosie is entitled to it. I believe name, town, state are fair game. Anything else is personal.
I agree with the limits to name, town and state. We no longer have to give our full addresses when addressing the BoS anymore. Just your name and district.
FOIA’s can be labor intensive and it takes people away from their daily job. I can only imagine how many man hours, pages, and ink have been spent on just some wanting information. I will still advocate for a 50 cent per page copy fee similar to the ones at the courthouses throughout the Commonwealth.
I truly believe now all topics that seem to make my blood boil have bit upon at least once today. It really is Friday the 13th.
Of course, someone could just write to the City and politely ask that they provide a list of planned expenditures.
@Lafayette
Yeah I just read that, too. Scary stuff.
@Posting As Pinko
“Of course, someone could just write to the City…” – when you’re right, you’re right!
What a bunch of nannies with too much time to gripe about life and politics. The issue here is whether the City of Manassas made a reasonable & responsible business decison by making a small one-time investment to help a non-profit get going on a series of big events that might serve to reverse the tourism failures we already have. FYI Gettysburg toursim is at the 120 million a year level — Manassas does not even register – and what tourism we do get is at the Battlefield. I note from another blog that they VA Tourism Board estimates that every dollor spent in VA to encourage tourism yeilds $5 in more tax revenues and $135 in additional economic stimulus/development. As a local taxpayer that sounds pretty good. The money here is a one time deal. Future events are then funded based on the proceeds from the first event and could continue for years bringing in folks. It works in Gettysburg as a for profit effort with folks getting rich along with the town. I understand that there is a desire here to see the money go into some other social welfare program in these tough economic times, but that is just small minded and self-serving. The opportrunity here is to create something that works for the community, permit the City to spend less on history as the non-profit picks up some of that burden for the City and the County in the future and maybe help support/grow some of the service industries and hotels in the area and that means jobs. Am I correct that there in not one conference center hotel in PWC? With the Quantico Marine Museum on one end along 95 and the Battlefield on the other along 66, tied togehter by the parkway (was that the plan?) we clearly need something to jump start our tourism dollars. I think this is it and its timely. PWC needs to take advantage of the commemoration. We know what what the unaminous vote was, my sense is that those who want to kill the golden goose should stand up and take responsibility – and explain themselves in the same way – by name and address – so we can see what the real agenda for all this “concern” and griping really is.
Does that mean that you have joined the ranks of ‘nannie with too much time on one’s hands,’ Poncho? I can see you have also left a name and address. NOT.
People are free to express an opinion here, as long as they do it courtesy. I would say we are exploring the question and in particular, we are considering what the county should do, since to date, nothing has been decided or discussed during BOCS meetings.
Having said that, I don’t disagree that we need a conference center. You make a valid point about the Quantico Museum and the Battlefield. However, do you feel the government should be paying for this conference center or do you think that it should be built with private money?
Were times not so strapped, many of us might not be looking quite as closely as we are. PWC cop cars don’t have dashboard cameras. Our western end senior citizen center was closed down. The annual cost was less than what the county is being asked to pony up for this venture. County employees did not get a raise last year and more than a handful were laid off.
Yes, you have to invest money to make money. We are questioning if this 9 day event is going to reap what is sown.
Yep, I guess I have – not for the nannie agenda but in a reawakened sense that finally somebody is doing something to get to the problem. Tourism is not the only long term solution to ending our reliance on the real estate tax, but its a start and unless Manassas and PWC have a recurring attraction – which our history should be – we never will get that conference center. Gettysburg is a good example with the Eisenhower Conference center built after the 125th aniversary and the commitment to do reenactments every year. You cannot get a room anywhere near Gettysbug when those things are in play. If there is a chance that reenactments will help spur private investments, I am all for reenactments. I hear the grousing but not a better idea. We will see if over the next 5 years there is any discernable change in tourism or tourism related increases in our tax base – much less related private investment. We will also see if more than the publicly budgeted funds are then invested as a result of the reenactments into our heritage assets — and if there is – and I expect there will be – I look forward to an apology to Mr. Owen and the Council. If not, the reverse is true. But, at least they tried.
I’ve heard several areas are about to “pop” as a site for a convention center – most likely, close to Quantico and the Marine Corps Museum. Don’t forget, besides that and the Battlefield, the multi-million-dollar National Museum of Americans in Wartime is opening Nov. 11, 2012.
Thank God for people of vision (and those that take calculated risks) or nothing would get done.
I don’t know where to begin to shed some light on some of the falsehoods I’ve read. First of all, tourism is alive and well in PWC County, thanks to the efforts of the CVB and lots of individual historic, cultural, and even retail sites. Virginia Tourism Corp. figures for PWC County say Traveler Spending is More than $419 million, Travel Industry Payroll is More than $112 million, and Travel Industry Employees number More than 6000.
Contrary to popular opinion, Owens is not the first to think about attracting visitors during the Sesquicentennial. A county-wide committee comprised of reps from national and state parks, historic sites, county government and educators has been meeting for 2 years, was allied with state committees early on, and has an extensive plan for commemorating the events. In fact, members have been meeting with reps in the highest levels of government to coordinate events of national significance.
Again contrary to popular opinion, re-enactments always occur on significant–and not so significant–battle anniversaries with no intervention from government or private entities. Re-enactors live for these events and do not need to be prodded to produce them. It was the gung-ho, destructive re-enactment celebration at the Manassas Battlefield in 1961 that caused the Park Service to begin prohibiting re-enactments on park grounds. Government does not need to subsidize events that would happen anyway and be financed privately.
The $100,000 payment to this Manassas committee in fact shifts funds from the city to a committee that does not seem to have to meet performance standards as city employees do. Because this committee will rely on existing groups to actually produce the Sesqui programs and events, the committee seems to be acting as a management arm. At a time when we are exhorted to be gearing up for the Sesqui, at least 2 part-time positions in programs/education at the museum–crucial to presenting these programs– are scheduled to be cut in June. Others may follow due to budget problems within the city.
Concern among the officially sanctioned Sesqui group has always been that the commemoration be historically based, educational, and balanced. Highlighting the county’s numerous historic sites and receiving national recognition might urge more visitors to come here once the Sesqui is over. Producing Disneyesque events for a couple of weeks, thereby putting in jeopardy our ability to attract top government officials to dignified events, does not seem the most prudent way to attract a long-term tourist base.
There was not a single person to comment Mr. Owen was the first come up with this idea. Furthermore, you come on this blog to defend that bully and don’t even have the common courtesy of spelling his name correctly. I didn’t read that anyone thought the commemoration should not take place. Many contributors want to know exactly what the government’s funds will be financing. It is the taxpayers’ money.
Alarmed, I am trying to figure out your position in all this 150th. I think most people here are concerned about the money being spent that is public money.
We also want to know what the county is going to chip in. What will the state contribute?
Of biggest concern is that the taxpayers really have not had a chance to give input.
This project might be the greatest thing since sliced bread. We don’t know any details yet. Whatever happens had better be good with jurisdictions having the money problems that that currently have.
Alarmed, thank you for coining sesqui group. That helps a great deal if I can remember to use it.
I forgot to add, I don’t think anyone thinks that re-inactments are government supported.
My intent is certainly not to defend Mr. Owen. As a taxpayer I am incensed that the money was allocated behind closed doors and especially that the group has no performance standards to meet as a city or county employee would have. Although a business plan was submitted, it relied largely on plans already made by the county Sesqui group.
Some of the very employees who have the knowledge and experience to produce these historic programs will soon have their positions eliminated. Presumably Mr. Owen will be free to hire his own employees to present historic programs and will not be held accountable.
The 150th is important and should be commemorated. But there is no reason to privatize this event when government employees and volunteers can get the work done at no additional cost to the taxpayers.
Moonhowler – Your posts have been right on target on this issue but the city of Manassas just plunked down $100,000 for a reenactment and the County is being hit up for $250,000. That is government support without accountability. If the cash starved State ponies up $1,000,000 then I would suggest that is government support as well.
I have just learned about the areas activities around the 150th anniversary of Civil War battle at Manassas. If this gets enough press it will be more than successful and brings lots of money into your community. Our group is already meeting to make arrangements to attend during the 150th anniversary.What with the ghosts at Manassas Junction and in and around Manassas you could plan activities for example ghost tours etc. Our group plans on camping but we will also need food, transportation around the area etc. Don’t count it out as a money maker, if nothing else apply for Federal grants.