AntiBVBL

Hope the almighty “they” will listen and actually do something. These are good recommendations.

Just as soon as we get a third or fourth “stimulus” package through, socialize health care, tax the crap out of everyone in America to stop global warming that isn’t happening, we’ll get right on it!

“Improving America’s image abroad”. Like in Europe, where they’d ALL be speaking German but for the sacrifice of American blood.

They are a bunch of elitist crooks who make no reasonable attempt to uphild the laws of this land and our national sovereignty. To hell with them and their recommendations. If that’s the best they can do, they should move out of the way and give someone else a chance to run America. People like this are running it into the ground.

I agree with some of what they say but as far as their pro-Amnesty suggestions, hell no, never, I violently reject them.

“elitist crooks”? In what way. Please comment specificallly Rick on what you find so offensive in these comprehensive and coherent suggestions.

I agree, these are sound recommendations. I think all the people who care about our country on both sides of the political aisle see this the same way. We need to find a comprehensive solution, meet in the middle and leave the nutty nativists and their phobias in the 19th century where they belong. But c’mon, elitist is just another way of saying they take a broader, long-term view. Is Jeb Bush a crook? I think he is a decent man and doing the right thing to try to reign in the wackos who are trying to take over the Republican brand.

First thing is they need to secure the border. If that doesn’t get done I don’t see the point in doing anything else. I’m a bit worried that securing the border won’t be a high priority before other things are done, and then we’ll just have a brand new wave of illegal immigrants after any sort of amnesty (or whatever you want to call it) is granted. So far I see no coherent plan for securing the border, even though solutions do exist for that. They won’t be cheap or come easy, but you have to do that first, in my opinion. So far everyone talks about it but has no real plan on how to achieve it. I’d like to see someone actually come out with a plan that makes sense. There’s definitely ways to make it secure, but I have yet to see anyone have a concrete plan outlining which method of several possible ones, they favor as part of this overall “immigration reform”. I’m afraid the plan will be half baked, just like Obama’s infamous “Gitmo closing plan” which is definitely a half baked plan if I ever saw one.

Gainesville, you talk as if there is only one border. I assume you’re talking about our border with Mexico. Correct me if I’m wrong. What about the Canadian border and our ports? What does it say about us as a nation if we are only freaked out about closing one border?

Shelly,
I think that people forget that NOT all illegal immigration is simply crossing the border. There are many people who oversay visa’s. Have you read the story about the 11 year old polish girl that ICE was going to deport? Both her parents are here legally, dad is naturalized citizen and wife has legal residency. ICE apparently decided that making her go home for a year and returning simply thereafter simply did not make sense.

The Council on Foreign Relations has a long bipartisan history. We should take their recommendations seriously.

“The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) has been the leading independent foreign policy organization in the United States since its founding in 1921. In this era defined by globalization, the need for CFR has never been greater. An integral part of the organization’s mission is to serve as a resource to all those who seek to better understand the world and the foreign policy challenges facing the United States and other countries.”

It use to drive the posters nuts on bvbl when I would site information from their website. At some point, reality has got to take over and common sense approaches need to be implemented.

“Since its establishment, CFR has produced rigorous nonpartisan analysis and insight addressing current and emerging foreign policy issues. CFR’s in-house think tank, award-winning website, outreach initiatives, and Foreign Affairs are only a few of the means through which the institution informs and facilitates dialogue, debate, and discussion of the highest order.”

http://www.cfr.org/index.html

I believe the ’secure the border’ in discussions like these implies the southern border with Mexico. Let’s assume for argument’s sake, that is what it means. Shelly, I got your message on that one. However, in dealing with reality, that is the border that is giving everyone heart burn at the momemnt.

Rick, I don’t know what to tell you. The council pretty much sounded like HSM for most of its rhetoric. The departure from the ‘party line’ seemed to be that the council accepted the notion that there were illegal aliens in the USA who were not going to be deported. If we were going to be a secure nation, we must come to grips with solveing the issue.

I thought the report was fairly conservative but realistic.

What part did you all who hate it find particularly offensive?

“State and local enforcement: State and local police forces can and should be used to augment federal immigration enforcement capabilities, as long as this does not interfere with their core mission of maintaining safety and security in the communities they serve.” Hmmmmm…….that’s what the Resolution was all about wasn’t it? Sounds like a plan to me, unless of course there is no deportation involved.

“Please comment specificallly Rick on what you find so offensive in these comprehensive and coherent suggestions.”

The idea that they want to reward the people who came in illegally, creating a new permanent underclass for Americans to compete with, support financially, and live next to, while ensuring large waves in future of more illegal aliens because we reward them for breaking in each time. I find this approach lazy, short-sighted, and unpatriotic.

The fact that it will break our welfare state and change our way of life, to the detriment of American citizens, gives me pause. The permanent lowering of American wages is also a minus. I’m sure it will help McDonalds to sell more hamburgers but it won’t do anything good for me.

Moon-howler :
What part did you all who hate it find particularly offensive?

I think it’s safe to say that nobody actually “hates” the report. Perhaps we should leave the casual and ill-informed tossing about of the word “hate” to those who lack the capacity to understand….ShellyB leaps to mind here.

And to Elena’s comment about the which border. Does the organization ‘MEXICANS Without Borders’ mean anything to you? They were quite vocal here in PWC if you weren’t paying attention. I don’t recall any ‘Canadians Without Borders’, or ‘Far East Indians Without Borders’ at the time! You know as well as everyone in this country that the phrase ’secure the border’ refers to our southern border, so why act so naive. It’s not becoming of you!

SA, I saw that but there are some caveats. As immigration and its related problems exist now3, there really isn’t a built in mechanism for local and state to be a part of the process. In fact, for the most part, it is forbidden.

Additionally, the recommendation said

as long as this does not interfere with their core mission of maintaining safety and security in the communities they serve.”

The cost is huge to take on the job of the feds in additon to it being verbotim or at least not defined. That’s the reason initiatives like this have to come from the top down rather from the bottom up. All power for border enforcement is given to the feds, not the locals.

I don’t see MWB as a very threatening group. Better that there is a voice in the community in many ways.

Rick, I don’t see finding a way to deal with people who are already here as amnesty. Somehow anything short of death or deportation is not the only answer. What would be acceptable to you other than those 2 things?

SA,
Mexicans Without Borders could not have picked a worse name!

Mexicans Without Borders was named long before Corey Stewart needed an election issue and mindless drones said “okay.” Anyone ever heard of Doctors Without Borders? Look it up maybe, just FYI. It’s too bad people around here know so little about the rest of the world.

Anyway, my point is that this hysteria over just one of the many ways that a person becomes undocumented in the U.S. is TV-generated. Elena, I did read the article about the Polish girl. There are many children who are undocumented immigrants due to their parents (who are legal) forgetting to turn in a form on time. There are many undocumented people from far away countries who came on student visas or tourist visas and overstayed. I think the obsession with people from “Mexico” comes from the fact that without racism, there isn’t enough juice to make an election issue out of this one.

Death, deportation … or self-deportation. Enforcing existing laws so that people who are here illegally can’t happily take our jobs, happily live in subsidized housing, happily put their kids in our schools, happily drive cars, etc. etc. Enforce the rules as they were written, and people will leave. Pathway to legalization? That’s another way to say “reward for lawbreaking”.

And I for one do “hate” the report. I HATE the way our elitist officeholders ignore and flaut our laws and rules to make a quicker buck for their friends. My hate is a perfect dovetailing of these things :

- the contempt I have long had for the way the rich pick and choose which rules to follow, making a mockery out of the notion of “Democracy”
- the contempt I have for the way our leaders almost NEVER act with integrity, but rather out of self-interest
- the anger I feel and many feel at the way a culture of victimhood has set foot in America, to the point that not rewarding lawbreakers is argued to be “racist”
- the sickness I feel at knowing we are deserting our non college-educated citizens, taking a rug right out from under them, even while sending their and our daughters overseas to fight for the right to keep oil flowing and to keep the rich richer
- the deep anger I feel at what my neighborhood became 3-4 years ago and how little anyone in any elected office actually cared

make that sending our sons and daughters overseas

If the elitists who run this government – into the ground, possibly – issue a report that says the sky is blue, you know what the first thing I’m going to do is? Look up at the sky and check that it hasn’t changed color.

The opinions of the boneheads who wrote this report, plus 25 cents, is worth enough to buy a gumball.

Clearly, we need comprehensive immigration reform in order for our economy to recover and continue to grow. Clearly, we need our economy to continue to grow in order for our entitlement programs to do justice to the Greatest Generation, now leaving the work force. As the report says, too many workers will be retiring soon, and without immigration reform, there will not be enough workers to keep the economy growing. A growing economy is the foundation of our entitlement programs, and our national security I might add.

People are confused by recent unemployment numbers. Understandable, but these numbers reflect jobs lost in a temporary recession caused by widespread fraud on Wall Street. This will pass. For our economy to continue growing, we need a steady flow of hard-working, highly-motivated immigrants to create NEW jobs and new economic sectors, turning small towns into booming economic engines, and turning small cities into economic powerhouses. This has been the way of things in the US of A since the founding. Illegal immigration has become a problem because the broken system for entering the U.S. cannot keep up with the labor demand.

Now that I’ve said that, I’ll be honest: I came on here to share this marvelous essay by Mike Murphy about Sarah Palin!

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/07/09/2009-07-09_to_go_forward_gop_must_snap_out_of_its_sarah_palin_spell.html

Shelly, people fear what they perceive as being able to get to’ them. Mexicans would be more fearsome than say Russians.

Additionally, many people here picked up on what was already being done and said in states like California. Therefore, everyone Latino becomes a ‘Mexican.’

On the Palin essay, it’s obvios she’s a pied piper figure who can do the GOP no good. But I think she’s done with running as a Republican. I think she’s going to inflict even more damage on them from some third party. Meaning that Barack and his family can get real comfortable in the White house, they’re going to be there for 8 years.

“Common sense approaches need to be implemented” – Elena #9
I agree, but the CFR report is about as fair as F.A.I.R.
It is biased, elitist and has a huge fatal blind spot –
what about our local jurisdictions? You know the folks that run
schools, public safety, family services, hospitals and health
clinics, housing inspection depts, etc. Remember them and the
citizens they serve? Where is the mayor and council member on
this board? Jeb Bush might voice some Fla. issues, but he is
no longer in office. The only bone tossed our way was a condescending
“local and state enforcement might augment the Feds”. Whoopee.
“The tax cost are local, but the tax windfalls are national.
There’s a local-national imbalance. It becomes a potent political
issue locally, and there is nothing local governments can do”
says Cecilia Munoz, vice president for policy at the
National Council of La Raza. (A National Academy of Sciences
study found that the average immigrant puts a net lifetime fiscal
cost of $25,000 on state and local governments).” -WaPo- 5-26-2006
Until there is a clear plan to support the quality
of life in heavily impacted communties across America, you
will not see any political support on this issue – even from
moderates. Es golpe de muerte.

California is TOTALLY BANKRUPT, in far worse condition than the rest of the US. Let’s spread what they have elsewhere, that’s certainly a rational approach. Let’s tell all of Central and South America that they can sneak in now and get earned amnesty later.

Last best hope said :

“People are confused by recent unemployment numbers. Understandable, but these numbers reflect jobs lost in a temporary recession caused by widespread fraud on Wall Street. This will pass. For our economy to continue growing, we need a steady flow of hard-working, highly-motivated immigrants to create NEW jobs and new economic sectors, turning small towns into booming economic engines, and turning small cities into economic powerhouses. This has been the way of things in the US of A since the founding. Illegal immigration has become a problem because the broken system for entering the U.S. cannot keep up with the labor demand.”

That’s well and good in the politically correct fairy tale existence you choose to live in. In reality, California is so far out of money that they don’t hve money to run schools or even give tax refunds.

CFR has acknowledged many of the problems with illegal immigration. It seems the only real issue is what to do with those who are here. Self deportation be damned. You have to look around and see if that is really happening.

There is just too much empty rhetoric being stated and too few real solutions. While you might not like that those here illegally might not be sent home, there is no solution on the table.

Some of you all are in denial about human nature and its realities.

I’m convinced that you’re the one in denial.

The best chance for an “earned” amnesty to pass was 2006 and 2007. It is/was much more likely to pass under a Republican President, who had a better shot to muzzle critics and criticism. Bush fought as hard as he could for this, I believe to the extent of allowing national security to become compromised. It was killed in 2006 and killed more easily in 2007. It’s enough of a third rail that biden and emmenuel are already on record as saying don’t expect it to happen.

What you are seeing is an attempt by Obama and his strategists to “keep promises” with the Latino and pro-Amnesty communities by putting the issue forward. When it gets beaten down soundly, by most republicans and some democrats, Obama won’t be to blame and can keep his calculus in play of expecting large Latino support to go along with overwhelming African-American support. This issue has the GOP in knots and is helping to ensure reelection.

But does Obama really want this Amnesty, really think it’s good for America. Well, he’s fighting for it much less hard than bush did. he’s not holding national sovereignty hostage to it, not trying to completely entange the issue of some law enforcement with the idea of rewarding “those already here”. Meanwhile the wall is being built, and the inflow has slowed down.

It seems obvious to me that Amnesty, by any other name, is not politically acheivable and that this is known and understood by our ruling elite. They pushed like heck for it in 2007 because they knew that was its last big chance – as time goes on and their false definitions lose traction, as people understand that this isn’t about rounding people up onto buses, and as illegal aliens keep killing citizens, driving drunk, etc. – it’s not doable at all.

This is just political posturing, don’t kid yourself. And don’t kid those poor downtrodden undocumented souls either. Amnesty won’t happen. It wasn’t popular before our economic crash, and it’s a complete non-starter now.

IMO the Obama Administration wants a kinder, gentler form of deportation and that’s what they’re working towards.

“Self deportation be damned. You have to look around and see if that is really happening.”

It will. E-verify is a step towards that.

For once the elites won’t get their way and the common people will prove that you can fool us once, shame on you, fool us over and over shame on us. It’s a success story. And HSM is a great success story in our own area.

This is a quote from this year :

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said it is now or never to get something passed.

“We’ve got one more chance to do this. If we fail this time, no politician’s going to take this up for a generation, and that’d be a shame for the country.”

I hope he’s right! I wish we could put this to bed once and for all!

Rick,
do you understand the underlying issues of why CA if bankrupt or are you laying the blame on illegal immigration?

It is bankrupt in large part because of illegal immigration.

I’m going to form a council and write a report to prove this. Then it’ll be formally true.

The new fad is to blame everything on Illegal Immigration…

Can’t find a job?

Can’t find a Woman?

Lost all your retirement funds on the stock market?

Can’t get your butt away from your computer and out on to the streets to work hard like the rest of the adult world?

-The most obvious reason anyone can be a failure in the God Blessed USA is because of illegal immigrants!

-not the reflection in the mirror…nope…no sir…can’t be that.

Some people really need to grow up. If you think Americans need jobs then quit F!@king buying Japanese cars, computers and clothes. Force a local market in goods by boycotting foreign imports, but if you can’t live your life without taking that first step, then quit bitching! Go sew a shirt!

-sheesh

The fact that Eliseo Medina from the biggest and most corrupt union this country has is pretty upsetting. Rick mentioned the “ruling elite”, that is the SEIU in a nutshell. They only want amnesty to bump up the money they bring via union dues, why else would this guy be on this ‘council’?

If they ever want this to be taken seriously step one would be to kick this crook off of the council.

“If you think Americans need jobs then quit F!@king buying Japanese cars, computers and clothes. Force a local market in goods by boycotting foreign imports”

If someone were to do that would they be called a nativist…

Who’s buying Japanese computers? and clothes? Are kimonos in style?

I do drive a Honda. I almost died in a Ford Escort which would not decelerate – I had to put my full force on the brakes, get it down to 30 MPH, then shut it off. My parents a few years later almost died in a Ford Taurus when the brakes wouldn’t work – they took it to the shop, where they were told “It looks fine – sometimes these things just happen”. I had also suffered through a Ford escort whose carbeurator would conk out every 4-6 weeks until I finally dropped a grand to replace it. And another that died (”no idea why” the repairmen told me) a few months before I would have paiud it off, at about 80,000 miles. NO MORE, I said. And my family is very happy with our 2 Honda Accords.

That doesn’t mean i can’t and don’t resent the illegal immigration phenomenon. it’s being brought to us by the same short-sighted geniuses in the ruling elite who ran Ford, GM, and chevrolet into the ground, and have run America towards the ground and towards bailouts for the wealthy.

rod2155 seems to be making the arguement that if we can all just show enough initiative we can live in a nice gated community and who cares if ilegal immigrants ruin the parts of the city where the less industrious live.

For anyone else who is scratching their heads as to why the SEIU is part of this ‘council’: http://www.seiuexposed.com/crimecorruption.cfm

Actually I miswrote that. I suffered through 2 Escorts, not 3. I’m not quite THAT stupid.

The carbeurator stopped runing every month or so, and no one could ever figure out why. A few years later I picked up a book on the subject of workplace sabotage. Some anonymous person bragged to the author that they used to work at Ford, and would drop a small piece of metal the size of a bb into carbeurators after they passed test. Subsequntly, he laughed, the thing would seize up every month or so and it would be impossible to diagnose why. His motivation was that he hated his employer and wanted to give them a bad name.

Thanks, dude.

Rick, I could see that scenario, Palin as a third party candidate, if the Republican establishment somehow blocked her path to the nomination. But Steele said “come on in.” Thus, I see Palin challenging for the nomination within the party and the matter being left up to primary voters.

Rick, that kind of nonsense has gone on for years. That’s also the reason I stopped buying American made cars years ago. I don’t have to drive a piece of crap to prove my patriotism. Whoever started all that buy America crap over cars had a special interest.

I think that is when I parted company with the patriotic types.

I expect Palin will outlast Michael Steele. That guy just doesn’t seem to have a long shelf life.

Off topic but has anyone ever looked at the relationship between Obama and the SEIU. It’s pretty eyeopening what Obama has done for them and their union bosses since they contributed over $60 million to his campaign.

Nope. Don’t plan to either. If it is something important some reporter will uncover it. If it is more Republican whining. well…yawn. As a moderate independent, I am tired of hearing all the left wing conspiracies. If something important comes up, it will be on the main stations 24/7. Work free news.

Joke of the day, Fox News doesn’t feel it is part of the main stream media. Does anyone find that strange?

Yeah, I suppose your right Moon, just sit back and let ’some reporter’ find everything out for ya. It’s so much easier that way as well, you just watch it on TV because if it’s on TV it’s going to be important and true.

I suppose that is why you post stories about Michael Jackson and Sarah Palin while congress passes Cap and Trade (the biggest tax increase and job killer in US history) while we are in the worst economic times since the great depression. Are Jackson and Palin are really going to impact the country as much as Cap and Trade? Maybe not but ’some reporter’ mentioned them on TV so might as well talk about it huh…

I agree with your ‘joke’ Moon, Fox is the highest rated news on TV for just about every hour. I would call that main stream, however, I think that they may be referring to ABC, CBS and government owned and operated NBC news.

And what have you done about it Hello?

I certainly don’t believe that you are out doing your own investigative reporting. You are getting your information through filters.

If I post articles on Michael Jackson, Sarah Palin, or the city dog catcher, it really makes no difference in the long run.

How much froth you manage to work up over cap and trade or the health care initiative doesn’t matter either.

There are other blogs out there who I am sure have more substantive bog admins than this one does.

Touche Moon… however, I have sent you an article I did my own investigation on for some time, remember? So I’m not sure what you mean by “You are getting your information through filters”. What filters?

It’s easy, want to see how corrupt the SEIU is and it’s connection to the Obama administration? There is a site called google, go on it and type in SEIU + corruption + Obama… you get over 82,000 hits. Not all of them good, take a look at a few and make up your own mind. Or, just watch TV, which ever you prefer.

not to take sides but that’s a great comeback there.

(by Moon-howler)

Article I sent to you Moon since you seem to have forgotten…

MSNBC, Legit News Channel or State Run Propaganda Machine?

There is no question that MSNBC is a left leaning news channel, which there is nothing wrong with, but could accusations that they are nothing more than state run media be true?

It’s no secret that GE, who owns NBC and MSNBC, received 140 billion in tax payer dollars. However, with bailout money there comes a price to pay, with the auto makers they had their advertising budget slashed, had to fire their CEO and had to restructure according to the Obama administrations demands which included favoring the UAW over preferred stock holders. With financial institutions, executive pay and bonus money is capped. So, what strings are attached to the GE bailout money? Not only did CEO Jeffrey Immelt not get fired he was named to President Obama’s new economic advisory board. One has to wonder if their ’string’ isn’t favorable news coverage and promotion of Obama policy.

Ratings for “Countdown with Keith Olbermann”, MSNBC’s 8 PM show, have dropped a staggering 42 percent between October and April of this year over all. With viewers in the key demographic of 25 to 54 years old Olbermann has lost 53 percent of his viewers. Rachel Maddow, who comes on after Olbermann, has lost an amazing 65 percent of her 25 to 54 year old viewers..

However, while MSNBC’s ratings continue to dwindle Keith Olbermann’s pay went from 3 million a year to 7.5 million a year. It’s quite obvious that Mr. Olbermann isn’t getting a multi-million dollar pay raise due to good performance while his rating plunge, is his pay raise being paid by our tax dollars in return for his pro-Obama stance? GE also has a vested interest in seeing that Obama policies such as Cap and Trade, universal health care and other green policy get passed because the stand to make hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars in government contracts and associated products. Is this a conflict of interest? One has to wonder with one Obama official, Kareem Dale, publicly stating “at the White House, as we like to always say, we love MSNBC”.

Kareem Dale: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB7A8qrBH7Y
Rachel Maddow ratings from premiere until now: http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/03/msnbcs-rachel-maddow-show-adults-25-54-tv-ratings-fall-nearly-65-from-premiere-month/19958
Keith Olbermann ratings for this year alone: http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/06/02/coutdown-with-keith-olbermann-posts-lowest-ratings-of-the-year-in-may/19862
Jeffrey Immelt, CEO of NBC Universal parent GE, named to Presidents economic advisory board despite GE needing and getting 140 billion in bailout money: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/173718-Immelt_Named_To_Obama_s_New_Economic_Advisory_Board.php

So, MSNBC, Legit News Channel or State Run Propaganda Machine?

[ED. Note: I believe Hello and I discussed the kidnappings in Phoenix and I told him I did not have time to research it. I offered to publish after approval from Alanna. I recall getting this piece in email but I do not agree to saying I would publish it as a thread. Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part. I don't watch MSNBC and have no opinion one way or the other. I only watch Foxnews and CNN.]

Now I’m in moderation? For what?

Oops, it may just be due to the links I have in the article I sent to you… sorry about that.

hello :
For anyone else who is scratching their heads as to why the SEIU is part of this ‘council’: http://www.seiuexposed.com/crimecorruption.cfm

Actually, ten minutes and “the google” will show even the simplest of minds that this “bipartisan” panel is very left leaning. All these innocuous-sounding “LLP”s and such have made all their donations to Democratic candidates. Go figure.

ShellyB, if you are going to pick apart what I said: there IS one border in the continental USA. It surrounds the entire country for goodness sakes! Draw a line around the USA 48 states and you’ll see what I say. To say there are multiple borders is inaccurate, unless you toss in Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, etc. I’m very well aware we have seaports, a boundary with Canada, etc.

Hey, were we talking about California?

http://www.examiner.com/x-10317-San-Diego-County-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m7d1-California-is-closer-to-ending-illegal-Anchor-Baby-births

Bwah-Ha-Ha-Haaaaaaa
Yeah, Baby!!!

I have to side with MH about what threads get posted here. antibvbl can pick and choose what it posts, and MH really has done a great job in broadening the subject matter on here. So what if she decided to post about Michael Jackson. I guess I don’t see the harm there. She put up plenty of posts on the immigration debate, so why not a departure from time to time to less serious stuff. Do some people just want to only talk about grim, depressing news like the economy, immigration, etc. all day? I don’t know about you – but it gets pretty depressing at times. As MH says (or implied) this blog can’t be one-stop shopping for every news item – as if it were the “CNN of blogs”. There’s a gazillion blogs out there – which must be discussing a lot of these other issues ad infinitum. Of course there’s always the option of starting one’s own blog too. Each time this comes up about why some non-immmigration related thread is put up – I have to just wonder what people really want to do. Cap & Trade is a good topic to discuss, but if MH doesn’t want to start a thread about it, there’s plenty of other blogs out there.

Maybe I’m just in a grouchy mood tonight, for no particular reason other than tired of being in this dumpy town here in Georgia. Things are going well and I’m looking forward to getting out of here tomorrow night.

Oh, and on the subject of news filtering – someone let me know a place where it isn’t filtered besides CSPAN. Every website/blog/TV channel/newspaper filters the news. The US gov’t filters it too – in every press conference by every administration. Your senators/congressmen filter it too. Not sure what point was being made there.

Well, I think for some reason I’m in a grouchy mood tonight for no particular reason other than being stuck in a boring hotel room, so I think I’ll shut up now!

Slowpoke, California’s in a mess financially and nearly bankrupt. They are doing whatever they can to try and cut costs, so it follows they might look at things like that to try and get things under control. I think this is a matter of the financial picture overriding any other concerns. They’re going to do anything they can to reign in costs on a whole bunch of areas. Their budget is a disaster and they are headed for a real financial crisis.

@Gainesville Resident
Point taken, Gainesville.

If anyone really wants to know why California is in such bad straights, watch the movie “Enron: Smartest Guys in the Room.” Enron was basically a gigantic Madoff ponzi scheme. They house of cards was falling though, even though they had one of their own inside the White House running interference. To keep the lie going they ripped off California with blackmail energy rates. Many people died in the rolling blackouts. Billions of dollars got siphoned out of a state budget that was doing fine before that. Then all that money went up in smoke along with all the pensions of the employees of the local energy companies Enron had bought.

I have to say also, the moderators do a great job of keeping dialogue going here.

Actually, I have to agree with you ShellyB, that’s a great movie. The book is also really good, and goes into much greater detail. What a bunch of crooks those guys were. So is Madoff for that matter. But Enron had fun playing with the energy grid at California’s expense. The book is well worth reading – lots of stuff the movie doesn’t have time to explore.

Rick, thanks. And we appreciate you all also.

Gainesville thanks for your support.

Someone tell me what happens when a state goes bankrupt. Seriously, I am asking a legitimate question here. It can’t print its own money. I understand it can’t pay its bills but what eventually happens? They already have huge tax rates out there. They just can’t tax the people to death.

Regarding the proposed CIR measures, it sounds like the best approach to have a practical solution that respects our Constitution, doesn’t create a race war, and does not deprive our economy of needed labor.

In looking at some of the other comments, it struck me how the Internet has really revolutionized the way people seek out “information.” M-H mentioned the many filters someone has to go through when they think they are doing “research.” People can find anything they want to find on the Internet. Many Americans are not sophisticated enough to accept basic equality is a reality not a slogan, but they are able to type in key words in a google search and then are expected to determine what is truth and what is fiction. Then they base their vote on some chain email that was debunked a year ago but no one told them. Kind of scary, no?

And electing a president based on what he says instead of what his accomplishments are isn’t scary?

SA, isn’t that what happens every election where there is no incumbent?

That’s exactly right, M-H. In 2000, we elected W. based on his father’s accomplishments, and ignored what he himself had not accomplished. No need to ask if THAT was scary. The result was we were caught flat footed on the greatest terrorism attack in our nation’s history, and this fact became the false pretense for a disastrous foreign policy including trillions of dollars wasted on a war designed to profit a handful of private corporations. The result was the hiring of unqualified cronies to important positions like head of FEMA and the near obliteration of a major city. The result was a complete lack of oversight of our banking institutions and the near collapse of the global economy and a recession we have only just began to stabilize (we hope). Just to name a few results. There was also torture as a national policy, illegal domestic spying, Valerie Plame, corruption of the Justice Department, collapse of our auto industry, etc.

Actually in reading Second Alamo’s post, I think he or she was talking about the fact that President Obama did not have much of a record since he was running for President since he made his speech at the Democratic convention. Cosponsoring legislation is not much since it just takes a request to cosponsor.

George W Bush was a governor and so was Clinton and Carter. Being a governor can give an idea of a person’s approach more than a community organizer and quiet first term senator.

There isn’t a President that people couldn’t list a bunch of negatives about so to do so is really not helpful to any conversation. I seem to recall that shortly after the second President Bush took office, the economy which had been tanking at the end of President Clinton’s watch tanked badly. Most know that business cycles do not occur in months but in years and a President has to take the good with the bad. So people criticized Mr. Bush for an economy tanking 8 years ago as a result of the dot.com drop that occured under Mr. Clinton. Well, here we are again and since Mr. Bush was criticized for something not of his making, so too is Mr. Obama. It is the life of partisan politics.

This is really for the first time I have ever heard a President being blamed for the “obilteration of a major city” due to an hurricane.[ED note: comment corrected to 'hurricane' per request of contributor. 3 following remarks deleted.] The response was awful but I don’t think the President has been given the authority by Congress to control the weather. By the way, some of the blame could have been levied on the city since they had been receiving money to maintain and improve the levees and it wasn’t used for that purpose. And the money had been given under previous administrations as well.

Yes, Joe, the hurricane itself was not Bush’s fault. Thanks for clearing that up. I think the reason that “Katrina” is one of the two or three disasters that will define the legacy of the Bush administration is that it demonstrated the cost we pay as Americans when we have a President who is not capable of taking charge in a time of crisis. The people surrounding Bush thought so little of his intelligence that they were not in the practice of giving him basic information, including things like “our nation is under attack” or “there is a really bad hurricane and Americans are dying.” There wasn’t a sense that this kind of information should be brought to the President, and that decisions should then flow from him. Instead, they only fed him information that would keep his moral up, and manipulate him into thinking he was making the decisions they wanted him to make. But he was never given the full plate of options. Only the ones they wanted him to think he was making.

We can speculate about the motives of Cheney and company for keeping Bush in a bubble. We can also face the fact that few candidates for President, and really few adults who have at all been successful at any level of life, would allow the people around them to put them in such a bubble. Most people, I would venture, would insist on real information and real authority if their name was the one that was likely to go down as the worst President in American history. After I’ve said all this, I must say I don’t blame Bush. He is only as much a man as he is. I blame the system of partisan politics that caused so many Americans to vote for him simply because he had an R. by his name and because they were already used to the sound of “President Bush.”

@ShellyB
Or, it shows that when you know for a week that a Cat5 hurricane is coming right for you….get out. It’s not rocket science.

“I blame the system of partisan politics that caused so many Americans to vote for him simply because he had an R. by his name and because they were already used to the sound of “President Bush.”

Is the same true for people who voted for President Obama simply because he had a D. by his name? Sure there are people who vote that way. It is a shame that sometimes all that takes. Since I know that things said on the internet are often misunderstood, I am making the assumption that you do not think the democrats should be excluded from the club that votes party alone. I myself have never registered in a party and have voted for both parties over my lifetime if I believed in the person.

But I think there are many other reasons for the election of President Bush including some very real parallels to the election of President Obama. One parallel was that people voted because the person was not associated with the sitting president. People voted against Vice President Gore in great numbers because of his association with President Clinton, just as people voted against Senator McCain because he was from the same party as President Bush. President Bush talked about his experience with bipartisanship–sound familar in the last election?

I am not sure that President Bush will go down as the worst President in American History. History will tell us that.

I have lived under 11 presidents so far and based on my memory, there are a few that could vie for that honor. And my history lessons from before my life tell me that there are quite a few that could also be in the group.

Interesting Joe. We are close in presidents. High 5 and all that.

I think we all have our favorites, living and dead. I would not even want to say who I thought was the worst. Different times/different seasons/different country needs.

ShellyB, I read your comment and could help to make comparisons…

“we elected W. based on his father’s accomplishments, and ignored what he himself had not accomplished. No need to ask if THAT was scary.”

- We elected Obama based on… his speaking ability maybe?

“disastrous foreign policy including trillions of dollars wasted on a war designed to profit a handful of private corporations”

- What do you think stimulus and bailout money is doing? Billions of dollars going to a handful of banks and private corporations.

“The result was the hiring of unqualified cronies to important positions like head of FEMA”

- Kind of like appointing Jeffery Immelt to your economic advisory board (psst… his company needed over $140 billion in bailout money), or like firing a qualified Inspectors General overseeing bailout money for Amtrak and replacing him with an Amtrak HR VP who’s specialty is “diversity awareness”, or like appointing crooked union bosses from the SEIU to high ranking labor department positions…

“The result was a complete lack of oversight of our banking institutions”

- What do you think is going to happen to oversight of hundreds of billions of dollars now that Obama has gotten rid of at least 3 IG’s and replaced them with political donors with no experience?

“There was also torture as a national policy, illegal domestic spying, Valerie Plame, corruption of the Justice Department, collapse of our auto industry, etc.”

- Obama’s top legal advisor has come out and said that they can detain any and all at Gitmo indefinitely even if they are acquitted of their charges. Obama has kept the “illegal domestic spying”, give it some time, Government Motors will indeed collapse, again.

Sorry ShellyB but one more example for your “The result was the hiring of unqualified cronies to important positions like head of FEMA”…

It can be summed up in just 3 letters B-I-D-E-N.

Funny how that old saw about “illegal domestic spying” keeps getting trotted out, even though the Obama administration continues to utilize the same tactics, and they were started under Clinton.

I can’t get myself all upset over illegal domestic spying. Emma, I think it was redefined under Bush. My biggest problem with that is I simply don’t care. If that is what it takes to prevent terrorism, go at it. Sigh, I am a bad American.

I guess it all depends on the lens you look through. Just goes to show it’s all about partisan politics. It’s always predictable who will defend the Bush administration as if it was the Second Coming, and who will usually complain about what happened during those eight tragic years. Maybe I’m just as partisan for thinking it was a tragedy. People will just have to make up their minds about Bush, if they have control of their minds.

But making up your mind about Obama after six months is a bit silly. That only proves the point that it depends on the lens. After six months of Bush I was still hopeful. I was thinking “well, he’d not very bright, but he has an experienced VP.” That’s the difference between an open mind and a mind that has been invaded by the boob tube.

Why ShellyB, I didn’t know you had inside knowledge of the information that was given to then president Bush. Your office must have been very close to have overheard all the discussions with the president. Perhaps you can tell us more of the things that went on there, or are you just quoting the left’s accusations along with the rest of the media? As far as the economy under Bush, don’t forget about the impact of 9-11 at the time. My 401K took a nose dive then also.

Did I say something bad about President Obama? I didn’t think I did since I am not quick to judge people’s intentions just their deeds.

If anyone cares to understand the “Illegal Domestic Spying” situation, here it is: the Bush administration secretly implemented spying programs that violated the privacy of Americans, apparently more than one, immediately following the 9/11 attacks. In 2006, the wiretapping program came to light. In 2008, Congress retroactively made the wiretapping program legal. This does not mean that the government is tapping your phones under the Obama administration; it means that if they do tap you phones, they are doing so under a legal framework that requires a proper warrant.

@Emma

** I meant more than one illegal domestic spying program; NOT more than one American!

Who is sponsoring any sweeping reform? Are there any bills out there being discussed or are health care and energy taking up all the time now?

And why do you suppose that happened, Witness? It allowed the two-faced Democrats in Congress to continue to attack Bush while reserving these tactics for themselves. They knew freaking well they could not collect intelligence without them, and they also knew well that valuable intelligence had alredy been gathered. Two-faced hypocrites, every one of them.

And incidentally, Congress didn’t make the wiretapping legal. It was a decision by a special federal appeals court that backed the government’s authority to conduct this type of surveillance. It was based on a complaint by a telecommunications firm that the Bush administration in 2007 improperly demanded information on its clients, violating constitutional protections against unreasonable searches and seizures.

So a COURT upheld the wiretapping, giving the hypocritical Democrats the ability to continue to use the tactic while still attacking the Bush administration’s use of it. And so very many liberals continue to follow their party line in attacking Bush over something that Obama is freely using. The truth hurts, doesn’t it?

If you had two choices, one where you know bad people are using cell phones as a technology to implement efficient organized crime, terrorism and dangerous gang activity, and you could listen to their conversations about how they are planning to commit crimes agaist the citizens who are victims of these organized criminal activities…

And the other where you do not have a technology to listen to bad people, and must “guess” at what they are up to next, usually after they have committed a crime, and there are sufficient victims and witnesses that have not been bough of by the crime syndicates that infiltrate impoverished communities

Which of the two systems would you want protecting you from very bad people in the world” Your only cost and risk is an “agent” of the law possibly randomly listening to a portion of your call after a keyword in a search list alerted that law enforcement agent to a possible conversation about violent activity or crimes in progress.

Are we so paranoide that some might bust your door down in the middle of the night because your son was talking to a friend about buying drugs somewhere, that we don’t ever want anyone committing a crime, to be caught “before” the act”?

By the way, the report above …is a progressive political sell out of America to the highest bidder, and a stark lesson in what happens to a nation that does not follow its own laws and chooses to inflict misery on the majority of the nation’s population, simply because a minority of the population in the nation feels sorry for “illegal” immigrants and generally for “minority groups” in America, regardless of what the law actually says and ignores the reality of its fairness to all people equally regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnicity.

We have this weird form of “progressive” racism emerging in America that seeks group entitlement at the expense of “individual rights” of all Americans equally.

Based upon the number of hostages taken in the past in foreign countries on trumped up charges, Americans know that looting of their country by illegal immigrants, or others, isn’t an acceptable method of doing business. Outsourcing is one thing; looting America is another.

America must take this as seriously as any other nation would in the same situation – or we will not have a country left to call home.