Military Coup in Central America
Sunday, armed soldiers awakened the President of Honduras and ran him out of the country in his bedclothes. The president, Manuel Zalaya, is now living in Costa Rica.
President Obama has spoken out against the ousters of the president saying:
“We do not want to go back to a dark past,” Mr. Obama said, in which military coups override elections. “We always want to stand with democracy,” he added.
The intrigue continues when considering the past history of the United States in such matters:
According to the NY Times:
The United States has a history of backing rival political factions and instigating coups in the region, and administration officials have found themselves on the defensive in recent days, dismissing repeated allegations by President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela that the C.I.A. may have had a hand in the president’s removal.
Obama administration officials said that they were surprised by the coup on Sunday. But they also said that they had been working for several weeks to try to head off a political crisis in Honduras as the confrontation between Mr. Zelaya and the military over his efforts to lift presidential term limits escalated.
The United States has long had strong tie
s to the Honduras military and helps train Honduran military forces. Those close ties have put the Obama administration in a difficult position, opening it up to accusations that it may have turned a blind eye to the pending coup. Administration officials strongly deny the charges, and Mr. Obama’s quick response to the Honduran president’s removal has differed sharply from the actions of the Bush administration, which in 2002 offered a rapid, tacit endorsement of a short-lived coup against Mr. Chávez.
This situation certainly bears watching. It has the potential to blow up in many faces and the response so far seems quite different from the usual responses from the United States. President Zalaya is considered leftist. Fidel Castro and Chavez have both called for a return to power for Zalaya.
The Obama adminstration has been watching the crisis build for several weeks. Zalaya wanted a referendum to lift the term limit restrictions on the presidency. Secretary of State Clinton was there in early June. She had been annoyed with the man’s unreasonable demands. You really need to read the time line of events in the link. The saga is too long for the blog.
Should President Obama take the same stand that Chavez and Castro take? Is the U.S. complicit in the military operation? What really is our past history? Have we meddled, as a nation? How come President Obama spoke out immediately about the Honduras coup but not the Iranian protests?
Speak, contributors!
Full story in the New York Times.
[UPDATE: 7/6/09 Deposed President Zalaya attempted to fly back to Honduras today from Dulles Airport after meeting with OAS. His plane was not permitted to land. The runways were blocked by tanks and military. His supporters were tear gassed and it is thought some were shot. ]
I don’t know much about the history of Honduras itself. However, from what I’ve read over the years, one could almost write a book on the USA’s involvement in various covert activities in Central and South America over the past several decades. It would be interesting to know what our involvement has been in Honduras in recent years, I just don’t know. I never heard of Zalaya until this became a news item in recent days.
Given some of the stuff the Obama administration is trying to push, I honestly don’t see much difference in Obama/Chavez/Castro/Zalaya. Philosophically they’re all the same person.
Also, given his diminishing approval ratings I hope centrists that voted for him are finally seeing him for what he is.
The attempt in Honduras to trample on the constitution and set up a “president for life” is 100% in line with the Obama administration. Anyone with half a brain who is paying attention to the massive power grabs as of late cannot deny that the policies of the current administration and those of the banana-republics are totally synched up.
I just don’t see things quite as draconian as you all do. Where is Obama’s referendum for Prez for Life? Next session?
Mando, McCain probably would have won if he had trusted the centrists and not put Palin on the ticket. For some of us, she was a real deal breaker. I just couldn’t do it.
M-H, you have the patience of a saint.
It seems every international news item, no matter how remotely related, is a reason to voice paranoid delusions. Go figure. I guess it would be fruitless for me to point out the danger of suggesting that a violent coup attempt might be in order in this country, so I’ll just laugh and shake my head.
But it just seems to me that the word “centrist” has lost it’s meaning when Rush Limbaugh is your “centrist” and Colin Powell is your traitorous left-winger. I wonder, in such a feverishly warped universe, whether anyone actually believes what they say, or if there is some therapeutic value in making outrageous statements AS IF they are somewhere believed. My fear is that some actually believe it, perhaps not on this blog but certainly there are believers out there who do not have the reality interface that this blog provides.
If Rush Limbaugh is a centrist then I am a card carrying member of the communist party, right along with Colin Powell. Shudder!!!
There is a real issue here with location. Any time there is a coup in the Western Hemisphere, in particular in North America, then we need to pay very close attention. Honduras is right in our back yard.
Any upset in that part of the continent very easily could affect future immigration. It is in our best interest to have these countries stable.
I’m thinking not in terms of president for life, but in terms of more govt. control. Obama isn’t as blatant as the socialist leaders to the south but his proposals sure do hearken to theirs. Rome wasn’t destroyed in a day.
With all his so called “stimulus”, unemployment is still rising while the govt continues to grow. Huge income disparity and more govt control are the seeds of socialism.
BTW, I’ve NEVER in my life heard Rush Limbaugh’s show. Not one second.
I agree somewhat Mando but I think that it’s more of trying to ensure that people vote Dem from now on by providing more and more entitlements and government provided answers. Providing free health care, more unemployment, and then sprinkle in 20 million new citizens via amnesty while making middle Americans pay for it all is a sure way to widen the Democratic voting base.
He has already started on his way to sure up the union votes by bowing down to them at every turn. They are even now thinking of taxing our health benefits, but not if your in a union… hmmm…
And how’s it working out for you?
No question Obama is beholden to the unions. The GM bailout and bankruptcy was definitely done in such a way to maximize benefits to the unions. One can argue whether unions are good or bad, but when the gov’t effectively is taking over the company and then forcing concessions to the unions, it’s not probably the best thing – certainly not in the interests of the company.
Necessary about 100 years ago. Bad now.
Now WE, as in the US taxpayer, are subsidizing unions in the same way that we subsidize illegal immigration. The two have much in common. Both screw over the middle class and both are in bed with the democrats.
I personally don’t like unions very much, but I come from a biased point of view there. My uncle was HR manager of a medium sized manufacturing company and involved in a ton of union negotiations, and he used to tell me about the negotations and some of the crazy things the unions demanded, as well as how they forced a union supervisor on almost every little job – eseentially doubling the cost of the work. This company basically made drywall from gypsum, and you guessed it, the added costs from the unions were directly passed on to consumers, or at least contractors who bought the drywall for use in houses. Some of the things the unions demanded were just plain unreal. Probably there was a time many years ago when companies took real advantage of manufacturing workers and unions were necessary.
Anyway, i just caveated what I wrote as I remember before some discussion of unions came up, and at least several posters on the blog thought they were a good thing.
Hey…what’s wrong with Commies?
Being in bed with Democrats is not necessarily a bad thing. Mando, ever tried it?
I am not a particularly pro union person. However, I am not an anti union person either. I think more of unions in the right to work states than I do in closed shop states. It also depends on the union.
What I want to know is where is Joe Biden on this matter… hell, where is Joe Biden on Iran, North Korea, etc… wasn’t he the foreign relations expert between the two?
Maybe Obama wised up and has duct tape across Biden’s mouth! We wouldn’t want the “foreign policy expert” to slip up and say something stupid now, would we?
Actually GR I think you never hear the “expert” talk about foreign policy because he is way too busy looking after stimulus money because ‘nobody messes with Joe’.
But shoot, according to old Joe himself, economics is above his pay grade as the vice president of the United States and Obama appointed watchdog of stimulus money: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2269094/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2269094/posts
I hadn’t heard that particular gaffe of Biden’s – thanks for the link, it was good for a laugh. You can always count on Biden to provide a laugh every time he opens his mouth!
I believe the ‘above the pay grade’ comment was made by Obama on the subject of when life began.
Joe is off working with duct tape. That’s fine.
You know this is beginning to remind me of the Clinton years. That is the worst I have ever seen other than Nixon, who more or less brought it on himself.
I find it interesting that there is a coup in our own hemisphere and no one really has much to say about it other than to criticize Obama for slamming those who forcibly removed a president at gun point.
I am going out on a limb and simply say, good for Obama. Gun point is not the way to handle anything, I don’t care what it is. There should be mechanisms in place to remove a rotten president. On the other hand, if he had said good, the guy was trying to crown himself king forever, then Obama would be criticized for that. I do understand how the game is being played.
You right Moon, it wasn’t Obama that made the ‘economics is above my pay grade’, it was Biden himself. You know, the guy that Obama declared as the stimulus money watchdog.
Reading a few articles on the history of Honduras and it turns
out they fought a war in 1969 with El Salvador over a disputed
border, football game(soccer) AND the large number of
Salvadorans living in Honduras ILLEGALLY! Interesting.
It would seem to me that anyone who had concerns over immigration, legal or otherwise (since a tps is considered legal) might be concerned over the outcome of a war in this area.
I thought they had been in one more recently than that, Poor Richard. I guess I am thinking of Nicaragua and the contras.
That’s really bizarre – I never heard about a country going to war partially over a disputed soccer game. Although I know soccer is a really big deal in many countries in that region. Also funny about the war being partially about illegal immigration! A definitely interesting piece of history trivia there as usual, Poor Richard!
The whole thing with the Contras is probably the most I know about any conflict in that region, thanks to all the notoriety that gained during Reagan’s term with the whole thing with Oliver North!
GR, there was definitely some meddling going on. Serious meddling. Meddling we will probably never know the whole truth about.
I think the Obama Presidency is going very well. There should be no surprise that the Republican party, even in decline, even in chaos, even with its rampant hypocrisy, even with all of the sex scandals, and even with the infighting, can still manufacture and constantly repeat a list of bogus reasons to be angry that Obama was elected last year.
This forgone conclusion doesn’t detract from the fact that we as a nation are modernizing our economic infrastructure and making crucial investments that will pay dividends for generations to come.
If you don’t like the ditch Bush and company drove us into, how about waiting until Obama and company gets us out of that ditch before you memorize another list of anger-me-Elmo talking points.
I am just sitting back and watching at this point, Witness. If the Republicans had spent enough time seeking a viable VP candidate as they have villifying President Obama, there might have been a different outcome. I saw the same thing happen with Bill Clinton. Then the Republicans all did the shock and awe thing in 2000, after that much disputed election, when the Democrats struck back. Well, duh, what did they think was going to happen?
Basic rule of all main religions–The Golden Rule
Add to that the rule about not stealing from taxpayers, like Democratic Senator Daniel Inouye. A bank that wasn’t even eligible for bailout got a healthy $135 million after a call from Inouye’s office. Inouye has shares in that bank worth $350,000 to $700,000, some owned by his wife.
No corruption or conflict of interest with Democrats at all…well, maybe just a little. Or maybe they’re no different at all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/30/AR2009063004229.html
That’s the third stage of Syphilis.
I never said a think about anything but the attack mode. And the Democrats and Republicans will continue to get even until both of them destroy this country. But the Republicans should stop being suprised. Now that I find funny.
Now, this thread is about Honduras. Nice try…There is an open thread if anyone has anything to say way off topic.
@Moon-howler
He started it
You bettcha, Slow!!
The official word now on Sean Hannity is that Obama is catering to dictators. (rolling eyes)
Now wait, who would clap and cheer for an elected president to be rousted out of his bed in his PJs and sent to Costa Rica?
That would be quite a news item if the New York National Guard ran Mayor Bloomberg out of the country at gun point at the first mention of term limit extension. The problem with preposterous goons like Hannity being presented as a legitimate “news” man is it gives amateur goons the idea the ought to make up ludicrous Anger-Me-Elmo talking points of their own. It also makes them susceptible to other types of propaganda that push the envelope even farther. Thus the rash of right wing domestic terrorism. It is frustrating when the political team you root for is dismissed in an election landslide. We don’t need to have people driven to insanity by these false hysterics being manufactured for them. I truly feel sorry for these people so wound up by lies and unnecessary anger. If only they could notch it up a degree and watch reruns of “Saved by the Bell” 24/7. They would be happier and we would be safer.
How can any legitimate self-described ‘patriot’ like Hannity possibly criticize an American president for speaking sternly to military thugs who oust an elected president. Regardless of how bad Zalaya is, he was democratically elected.
Strange how someone like Hannity can get all teary-eyed over Iraqis voting (after we blew their country to smithereens) and then get on his high horse over our president supporting an elected president who was removed at gun point in a military coup. Talk about cherry picking!
Not that Mr. Hannity is anywhere close to knowledgeable enough about politics outside of this country to make a qualitative judgement about Honduras’ ousted President, but my guess is that he was told that President Zalaya’s politics are left of center and the military dictator newly installed is firmly rooted on the right … as military dictators tend to be. Thus, it isn’t any wonder that Mr. Hannity sides with the military dictator. Democracy has never sat well with Hannity. The word sounds too much like Democrat.
I believe that American foreign policy should favor democracies over military dictatorships in the Americas and around the globe. President Bush was right when he said that democratic nations are less likely to threaten their neighbors. “Naturally the people do not want war,” or so the story goes. But when nations are run by military dictators … or even elected leaders who stand to profit from military exploits … the will of the people can be manipulated or simply ignored and costly wars ensue.
“How can any legitimate self-described ‘patriot’ like Hannity possibly criticize an American president for speaking sternly to military thugs who oust an elected president.”
Maybe because of how he didn’t want to mettle in Iran politics and didn’t say much at all for two weeks while people were being killed in the streets but then comes out and talks freely about Honduras situation the same day it happened… just a guess.
Witness Too, if you think that the Republican infighting is bad take a look at what the Dems are doing. It’s great, they bash each other every chance they get. They are now starting to do what the Republicans did and have been doing, running out their moderates. Which is awesome for the Republicans…
Just look at MoveOn.org… they are running nasty commercials in every Dems home district that doesn’t vote for anythig and everything Obama. Some are even called unpatriotic and traitors. Keep it up Dems!!
I think the Dems essentially outed Inouye, one of their own, because he apparently is not a big supporter of cap-and-trade and wanted more publicity for an EPA report that is now saying that carbon emissions are not as responsible for climate change as now bellieved. I’ll find the reference to that and get back–again, they are no different, no less corruupt, and they are weeding out their own moderates, as hello says.
Correct Emma, they are targeting their moderates and I hope they keep it up. That strategy really backfired for Republicans which is why I find it odd they would be doing the same thing.
Current moderate Dem targets of MoveOn:
- A new 60-second radio ad released today targets Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA) for her opposition to the public option that President Obama supports. – http://pol.moveon.org/landrieu_ad/?rc=homepage
- Spector on health care
- Kay Hagan on the public option
Hey, will people that came here illegally from that country now start returning, or will this just bring in more?
There has been a Joe Biden sighting… he made a public appearance yesterday to give a speech. Even though he is this administrations foreign relations expert he wasn’t there to talk about North Korea, Iran or Honduras.
He as there to “talk to rural folks about federal stimulus money that can be used to expand broadband access to the Internet for rural areas that typically have poor connections”.
“The room looked so sparse that about 30 or so chairs were removed by volunteers to give the illusion of a full house.”
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/blogs/fortyfourthestate/
What a joke, is Biden good for anything? I really disagree with many of Obama’s policies but please dear lord, do not let him get as much as a splinter. Can you imagine “President Biden”?
Apparently Biden’s job as “stimulus czar” trumps his supposed role as foreign policy advisor. President Biden would be a scary thought. No thanks – I hope Obama stays strong and healthy for as long as he is president! After that, I hope Biden fades into the sunset, although I don’t ever see him being a serious presidential contender – he’s now tried twice that I know of, and didn’t succeed.
Are you effin kidding me? The only thing the generations to come are going to be paying is the MASSIVE debt we’re racking up.
These Obama koolaid drinkers. “Modernized Economy” Govt. “creating” jobs. Cap and Trade. Govt. run health care. Sheesh.
The more I hear these tools, the more I want to puke. Our kids our going to be paying in spades for their ignorance.
Good MORNING Hi-jackers!!
2 weeks Hello? Interesting counter you have there. Let’s start with a distance lesson. Honduras is a lot closer to us than Iran. What happens in Honduras isn’t likely to stay in Honduras. Yea, sort of a North Ameerican problem.
Secondly, Iran was a protest. Remember the criticism Daddy Bush is still taking over leaving one faction of Iraqis hung out to dry? Remember him encouraging a revolt and then the USA did nothing and a bunch of folks were killed by Saddam?
That’s all we need. A cheerleading squad over here in the United States. Go Iranians Go. Encourage them to revolt, and THEN WHAT? a 3 front war while we go bail their butts out?
Obama did the right thing in both cases.
Mando, how about laying out an alternative plan. What would the unemployment rate look like if none of the stimulus packages done by Bush or Obama had happened? Then what?
From NYT:
Obviously the conservatives in the USA disagree with the Organization of American States. Iheard more criticism of the Obama stance last night than you can shake a stick at.
What is wrong with some of the conservatives? Since when is armed conflict an option to a government you do not like?
More from the same article:
I am truly horrified at those who would put cheer on this kind of behavior just for political reasons. That is akin to cheering massacres of American soldiers in Mosul because you don’t like George Bush.
I’m an equal opportunity hater when it comes to govt. meddling with the economy. Bush and Obama alike.
Government CANNOT “fix” the economy. I’m not looking for a free-for-all, just a VERY light handed approach. Let the market correct itself. Simple.
Govt. meddling got us into this mess. MORE govt. meddling isn’t going to get us out. Asking politicians to “fix” our economy is asinine.
When a politician says they want to “modernize” our economy, run like hell.
And, sorry for the hijack.
I don’t think people really understand how rare and miraculous the U.S. story is.
Washington didn’t have to step down. He was begged not too. If he didn’t, we wouldn’t be the nation we are today.
All the ingredients have to be in place and in precise amounts for that change to take place in these countries. I no confidence that we have or had the right cooks in office to determine just how much of this and that is necessary to help Honduras/Iraq/Iran bake the cake.
Should read -> I “have” no confidence…
@Moon-howler
In a non-stimulated America, by this point the crime rate would have skyrocketed, the smell of the bodies of people who starved to death and died in the woods, homeless would taint the summer air. Children would be seen wandering the suburbs as their parents abandoned them in a bid for survival. Some districts would not be cooperating with the Government of the U.S. anymore. There would be many racial and religious based militant compounds springing up in rural areas. At least 1 major U.S. city would have descended into practical anarchy.
Stores would only sell esential goods at inflated prices, 45% of public schools across the U.S. woudl not reopen their doors some September, extending the summer for the Children leaving them to help out at home, or engage in crime to stop bordem.
Come brushfire season, many areas in the west will not have the resources to fight fires, leaving nature to make tens of thousands of people homeless.
This could be McCain’s America, but once taking hold of power, even he would probably be forced to open up the flood gates of cash when taking a look at the real numbers…
At least that’s what I calculate the U.S. would be like if the Stimulus was halted by the Government. Some states would be able to take care of themselves, but the poverty all across the country would be leaving us on the path to a 2nd civil war.
Now on the flip side, if the U.S. fails to use this stimulus proberly and turn our economy around, then in a couple years, we may well be in the situation I predicted. If we leave the rebuilding completly in the hands of politicians, then the country will fall into a depression even worse than the 1930’s.
If the country cannot come together, push asside the service based cheap technoculture and engage in honest hard work, then we will break up into a multi-factioned civil war and split the United States into many little countries like Eastern Europe. In turn the Americas will be more like dark ages europe while China becomes the star of the world.
No he didn’t. However, he did and here we are.
Chavez was put in his place over the issue. I expect Zalaya would have been also.
I think that the OAS will probably bring pressure to bear on Honduras. I just don’t think a military coup has any place in North America, even in Honduras.
A while back, there was talk of dropping the requirement for president of being a natural born citizen so that Arnold could run for president. That is a radical departure from our constitution. Yet, we didn’t have a military coup over the suggestion. Just a thought.
We are not Honduras.
No we are not. We also need to set a good example and snarl at countries behaving like that when they get out of line. Swat them around like a puppy until they are house broken. But that kind of regieme change at gun point is totally unacceptable.
Because snarling has worked in North Korea and Iran?
If there is to be change in any these countries, the citizens need to rise up and kill people. Crude and un-pc, but that’s the way it works.
We could always send in CIA operatives to instigate uprisings where people “rise up and kill people” but I imagine Sean Hannity would be very upset at that, and therefore so would all his mindless drone viewers. Not that that would matter much in the real world, but what a headache it woudl be for M-H and for this blog! ( =
@ Mando
Don’t look now but the ‘most ethical administration’ has forced the retirement of yet another Inspectors General, this time from Amtrack. He was forced to retire days after a meeting with Amtrak officials about an independent report of Amtrak.
Who is set to replace this IG? Maybe someone with vast law and accounting experience, maybe a ton of IG knowledge? Nope, Lorraine Green, Amtrak HR VP who’s expertise are “diversity initiatives” and a known Democrat supporter and donor and first time IG with no experience in the field what so ever.
So just how many IG’s does that make that Obama has canned and replaced with Democratic ‘yes men’? Who knows… I’ve lost count by now. Isn’t this nice, people bashed Bush for firing 8 attorneys (which wasn’t against the law) but nobody is talking about the illegal firing and forced retirement (according to the bill Obama co-sponsored himself) of IG’s when there are trillions of our tax dollars out there to be kept track of.
Speaking of mindless drones, the queen of the robo replies answers with their typical drivel. Limbaugh blah blah, Hannity blah blah, Drudge blah blah, racist blah blah…
And if the colonies were populated with ShellyB’s we’d still be a monarchy…
Not that it matters because I doubt you’ll ever get it, but my point was the citizens of Honduras are the only ones that can decide their fate. No CIA operatives and no “stern” condemnations from Obama are going to do it. Generally change on that level only comes about with violence. Peaceful protest did not and will not work in Iran as we have seen. Didn’t work in China.
Our freedom came about with considerable bloodshed, death, and a few great men to lead us.
BTW, I’ve never watched Hannity. Ever. Couldn’t tell you what he looks like. Same with Limbaugh although I do know what he looks like. A preemptive strike to your next robo response.
@hello
Should we be surprised with a Chicago politician in office?
Our ‘President’ is starting to look more like our ‘Dear Leader’ each day…
The foxes are now guarding the henhouse, hello. Pretty soon, there will be no one left who will be able to investigate this administration with any objectivity whatsoever.
In the meantime, here is some information that was effectively squelched immediately before the House cap-and-trade vote. Apparently, Senator John Thune wants an investigation because of “emails made public by the House Energy and Commerce Committee (that) show a high ranking EPA official apparently suppressing scientific views that run counter to the Obama Administration’s determination to regulate carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses.”
http://thune.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=2b3bd494-3e9c-4947-96a2-3aa7f9e26163&Month=6&Year=2009
It will be interesting to see how much longer this report can be suppressed. I fail to understand how anyone can continue to turn a blind eye to the blatant corruption going on. Thuggish Chicago politics at its finest.
Agree 100% Emma, our Dear Leader is obviously putting the message out there that if your an IG and you inspect the wrong person or group your going to get that call in the middle of the night from the White House giving you 24 hours to either retire or be fired. If you refuse and get fired they will then trash you and your character in any way possible. Just ask Mr. Walpin.
Foxes guarding the hen house indeed. Yeah, I saw that report the other day, kind of makes one wonder what happened to honesty and transparency doesn’t it.
Did you catch his staged health care push in Annandale yesterday? All the e-questions were chosen by his administration and the live ones were from members of groups with close ties.
Can it be more obvious that he is not what he marketed himself as? Why even take twitter questions if you’re screening out the ones with the hard questions?
Change indeed.
I read today that the health-care bill being sponsored by Ted Kennedy exempts Congress and federal employees. Yep, keeping the best for themselves and voting us third-rate rationed care. After all, these honest Abes deserve it, don’t they?
What a joke that was, yeah, a ‘town hall meeting’ with pre-selected questions and audience members. I suppose that is some of the change we were promised. Staged ‘town hall’ meetings and hand picked and pre-approved questions in news conferences.
Odd that now Obama says Cap and Trade wouldn’t cost much, “just the price of a stamp a day” but back in January 2008 his Cap and Trade plan would cost energy prices to “skyrocket”…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4
Pardon the blog “coup,” Moon-howler
I wan’t in my pjs so it didn’t matter.
You all are really unhappy over Obama, aren’t you? Didn’t you see some of this coming? Why on earth did you all let McCain run with Palin?
Surely you knew that most mainstream Americans simply could not support Palin. Someone really dropped the ball there. I am thinking about a thread on the Vanity Fair story. Not sure I would even know where to begin.
There’s the problem, huh? We didn’t want McCain and you didn’t want Palin, so we get Obama! I still can’t get over how so many people swallowed what they were fed by Democrats about Palin. It’s a shame.
Slow, I don’t dislike Palin as a human being but I sure couldn’t vote for her as a president or vice president. Just out of curiosity, what do you feel qualifies her for either position?
I don’t think I believed the Democrats any more than the Republicans. I sort of believed my own eyes and ears.
@Moon-howler
She is so much more qualified to be President than either Obama or Biden that I wouldn’t know where to begin. The fact that the liberals attacked her so hard and so viciously should have clued folks into how good she was. The attacks against her deserve no forgiveness…..ever. What was it about her you didn’t like? Was it the fact that her state has a budget surplus? Was it that she’s “stupid”? Jesus has anyone actually HEARD Obama speak without the “teleprompter of power”? He’s got marbles in his mouth! OH, Palin’s a heartbeat away from the presidency!!! God, it’s like nobody ever heard Biden talk (inviting that wheelchair dude to stand up and be recognized is my all-time favorite). I guess you and I are embodying the moderate vs. conservative Republican problem. I just know I’d rather watch Obama and Biden tear this nation to shreds than see McCain, Romney, or another G.W. Bush in the White House.
Slow, her state has all that oil. What is your opinion of the Vanity Fair article?
To answer your question, she is far too conservative for me and I saw no substance.
I didn’t think she was stupid, I thought she was uninformed and didn’t care to change.
“You all are really unhappy over Obama, aren’t you? Didn’t you see some of this coming?”
Yeah, you could say that I’m really unhappy with Obama. I gave him a chance when he got elected but wow, campaign Obama is not President Obama. It’s almost too easy to point out the hypocrisy between campaign Obamam and the dude in office now. Sure, I suppose I saw some of this coming but didn’t think he would go as far as to break his own co-sponsored laws.
What gets me is everyone out there who bashed Bush (and I’m not a Bush supported) over things like firing attorneys and skirting the constitution with things like wire tapping and such but now are MIA. Where the hell are those people now? Obama breaks his own laws and continues policies like wire tapping but it’s a-okay for him to do it? So if Bush does it then he is the devil, Obama not only does it but takes it to the next level and nobody has a problem with it?
Hypocrites, every last one of you that stays silent and doesn’t call out Obama on the very things Bush did that were so ‘wrong’ but now seem to be no big deal.
Exhibit A: “I think the Obama Presidency is going very well. There should be no surprise that the Republican party, even in decline, even in chaos, even with its rampant hypocrisy”
“Going very well”… “rampant hypocrisy”… yeeeeah, it’s going great! Unemployment is at a 26 year high even though stimulus (which we had to pass right away or else we were going to be in a depression) was going to stop it at 8%. The self proclaimed “champion of gay rights” is anti-gay marriage and has done nothing with dont-ask-dont-tell. Hope v.s. fear is looking good, health care is a ‘ticking time bomb’ and we are all going to die if cap and trade doesn’t pass soon.
Please, I know that some here love Obama but give me a break. Do you love him so much that you just ignore his own faults and hypocrisy? You see this allot, “I think the Obama Presidency is going very well”, are you blind?
I agree with MH that it is very serious when a military coup takes place in the Western hemisphere, but this is not your typical military coup. Had the military not acted, Honduras could have ended up with a Chavez-style “democracy.” The coup was remarkable in that it was bloodless and it responded to a judicial order of the Supreme Court of Honduras, which ordered Zelaya to be deported. After the president was removed, the military immediately returned the government to civilian control. The coup was definitely murky, but not so extra-constitutional as to demand such a strong response from the United States.
The judicial order of the Honduran Supreme Court was not unlike our own courts overstepping their bounds with some of their historic “remedies to injustice.”
Hello, no you didn’t give him a chance…at least not on this blog. You started in right away, which of course, is your right to do. However, don’t try to paint yourself as an innocent. You aren’t.
I don’t recall there ever being a lot of Bush bashing here. You obviously have forgotten that this blog is owned by a Republican? I think you have confused this blog with another blog.
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Kelly, I am not that well versed on Honduran laws to even comment on the Supreme Court business. However, even if Zalaya was very Chavez -like, is it not the right of the people of that country to elect who they want as their president? I find it disconcerting that in North America regiemes are overthrown in this way. That sure doesn’t say much for democracy.
Someone on here the other day said people have to die..was it you? I disagree. That really should not be happening. If Zalaya called for a referendum, was that not calling for a vote? Referendums are definitely a part of democracy.
It’s not that simple, MH. It would have been an illegal vote. If Obama decided to hold a national referendum on the Second Amendment, the outcome would be irrelevant, because it takes much more than a simple majority to change the U.S. constitution. The hurdles for changing the Constitution were made extremely high to protect against the “tyranny of the majority.”
Similarly, presidential succession in Honduras is a constitutional issue. Allowing a vote on it would have created a constitutional crisis, regardless of the outcome. If Zalaya had won (or more likely stuffed the ballot box), there may have been no way to prevent another dictatorship in our backyard.
As a last resort, gun point may be the ONLY way to handle things. Must I remind you that our own country originated from a violent uprising known as the Revolutionary War? Have you forgotten that the Civil War was fought by Union forces to prevent the Confederacy from breaking away from the U.S?
I notice that many people in this discussion group like to quote Thomas Jefferson. Consider the following quote from the author of the Declaration of Independence: “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. ”
That sounds like Jefferson advocated violence in certain situations to me.
And I am sure that TJ wore side arms when he rode down the mountain to the University. Do you think that would fly today? I don’t.
Don’t even get me started on the Civil War. I doubt very seriously if you would like to hear what I have to say. But please do not hold it up as a shining example of how things should go when people disagree. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING was worth the loss of 600,000 + lives.
I know nothing about Honduras’s constitution and what it takes to change laws. I do know that a coup is never a safe thing.
If you do not understand the underlying issues, why do you oppose the outcome?
As for your second statement, liberty is not always about being safe. Do you think those brave marines who began an offensive in Afghanistan yesterday are playing it safe? The price of liberty is always expensive.
It is always easier and safer to sit on the side lines and advocate for “stability” and the need to avoid bloodshed. I am sure that is what the Loyalists argued in 1776. That is definitely what the Northern peace movements argued in 1863. Neville Chamberlain made the same argument in the 1930s. That’s what the proponents of detente and a nuclear freeze argued in the 1970s. That is what the Democrats argued in 2006 when things looked bleak in Iraq. That is what Obama argued in 2009 in Iran and Honduras.
Many Americans seem to agree with your point of view right now. But in the long run, such attitudes do not bode well for our democracy and for our freedom.
Anyone who thought that Obama was going to wave some magic wand and our recession/depression would be over was not based in reality. He always said it would get worse before it would get better. We dug ourselves in this hole, it will take time to build ourselves out of it. There are issues that I am not happy with President Obama about, but the economy, at the present time, is not one of them.
@Kelly
You are comparing apples to oranges. Military coups are generally carried out in third world countries by thugs.
I never said liberty was safe. I said a coup wasn’t a safe thing. Big difference. Thugs come into a man’s bedroom in the dark of night? This is liberty? I think not!
Don’t you dare compare our military in Afghanistan, Iraq, or any place else in the world to thugs who exercise their political power in the dark. That is not the democratic process.
No, I don’t know jack about the Honduras Constitution and neither do you.
At least we can agree on one thing, you don’t know jack about the Honduras Constitution and probably not much else about national security. But don’t tell me what I know and don’t know. You have no idea where I have been, what I have done, and what I have read. The U.S. military has deployed to Joint Task Force Bravo in Honduras for over 20 years. I supported several of these deployments and have met several officers in the Honduras military, which provided the “thugs” that arrested and banished Zalaya .
And I will dare to make any comparison that I choose. The Honduran military carried out an order, just as the U.S. military carries out its orders. Their military was placed in an impossible position between following a president who was attempting to become a dictator and obeying a judicial order of the Honduran Supreme Court. I believe that they chose to support democracy, since they turned control of the government back to civilian authorities after removing Zalaya.
You may think or dare to make any comparison you want. However the options of where you are making them might be getting more limited. Something to think about.
You might want to take your big assing to another blog. You are wearing out your welcome because of your bad manners.
Kelly,
You make some really relevant points, but your presentation can be a real turn off.
@Elena
Thank you for your response, Elena. I admit that I would re-word my previous post if I had the chance. I should not have posted while I was still irritated by MH’s response. I did not find her response to be a model of decorum, but I should not have responded in kind.
Perhaps we shall just have to call a truce. We will never agree it seems. I don’t see the supreme court as having the right to send out the military. You, if I read you correctly, believe that military coup is acceptable. I believe it is last resort.
You intensely dislike Obama as president, I am giving him a chance even though he was not my candidate of first choice.
I do not believe that military coups are acceptable (except as a last resort). But I argue that what happened in Honduras was NOT a military coup: The Honduran Congress voted overwhelmingly to remove Zelaya from office for his unconstitutional attempt to stay in power. The Honduran Supreme Court issued a court order for him to leave. The Honduran military carried out the judicial order after Zelaya failed to comply.
I do not dislike Obama at all. I recognize that he is a charismatic leader and politician of immense talents. What I intensely dislike are Obama’s policies and agenda. Obama has already quadrupled the budget deficit, taken over much of Wall Street, pushed a cap-and-trade bill, announced plans to close Guantanamo, failed to support democracy in Iran and Honduras, and started the legislative process for an expensive health-care initiative.
I opposed oversized government and socialism before Obama ever materialized on the national scene. By giving him a chance, am I supposed keep quiet as he pursues the exact opposite? I think not.
From what I have read, most of the world, in particular, the OAS, views the recent take over in Honduras as a coup.
Suggesting referendum or vote of the people seems a part of democracy to me, regardless of what the referendum is over. Governments will always have those who oppose whoever is in power. That is what control is all about. Regardless of socialist leanings or not, I do not believe the Supreme Court of Honduras has any right to order the military to remove a president. Is there legitimate documentation stating otherwise?
Members of the OAS plan to accompany Zalaya back to Honduras. Most of the world supports returning Zalaya to power. The de facto govt headed up by Michelette is refusing to budge. This is the first time a member of OAS has been suspended by the organization in almost 20 years because of a coup.
Honduras needs to find a better way of settling political difference than the military taking out a president.
Additionally, the middle and working class people support Zelaya. The upper classes support the coup. hmmmm……
If a sitting U.S. president were impeached by the House, convicted by the Senate, and then refused to leave, there would have to be some mechanism to remove him. Our constitution and federal code are not exactly clear on how this would be done. I am sure the U.S. Supreme Court would have to get involved, but who knows how it would all turn out?
We are getting way beyond my knowledge of the Honduran government, but I think the scenario I just described is basically what happened in Honduras.
The Organization of American States (OAS) may have taken the side of Zalaya, but it also re-admitted Castro’s Cuba and took no action against Chavez and Venezuala. So the OAS is no great beacon for democracy.
In regard to whether the Honduran military must respond to its Supreme Court, consider this. Our own U.S. military has to obey court orders fairly frequently. For example, the courts have forbidden the U.S. military from conducting certain types of naval exercises, because they interfered with wildlife (whales, I believe).
There is nothing in the U.S. constitution stating that the U.S. military must follow court orders, but it does so, nevertheless.
You are of course correct, but majority rule is limited in order to protect against the “tyranny of the majority.” For example, a vote of the people to institute slavery for a minority class in a given country would clearly be illegal. So there are definite limits as to what types of votes are valid and proper.
Exactly re referendums. Term limits is not slavery though. kelly, I don’t think we are ever going to agree. My only point is I find coups to be dangerous in the western hemisphere. There has been much more exposure to democracy in this part of the world than there has been in say the middle east.
There is a simple solution for Zalaya. He has 6 more months to go. If he is that horrible, vote him out of office. If he has allowed bad legislation to go through, vote revoke it. It seems to me that there have been carts before horses. I am not saying a coup is always bad but it certainly should not be part of plan A. Maybe plan Q, but not A.
Here is the part that I want to understand about your position, MH. The United States has a mechanism to remove presidents who are guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. If the Hondurans think their president is guilty of high crimes, why should they not be able to remove him?
If the Hondurans had waited 6 months, Zalaya might have used the time to consolidate power with the assistance of Chavez and it may have been too late to prevent a dictatorship. At that point, Honduras would not have been able to vote him out of office.
It doesn’t sound like the all the Hondurans wanted to remove him.
I don’t play ‘what if.’ It takes more than a second term suggestion to make a dictator.
I think that OAS is all over this one. There really is nothing else to say. We don’t agree on the original premise. I see this conversation as wasting both our time. You have already stated that you see Obama as promoting socialism. Does that mean you would support a coup in this country?
Good. The violence seems to be getting worse.