AntiBVBL

Oh what the heck, I just have to make a comment to get things rolling!
Can anyone tell me how to go about voicing an opinion which the SPLC doesn’t agree with when it comes to immigration without being referred to as a hate group member? So who made the SPLC the non-biased determiner of hate? One man’s difference of opinion is another man’s hate I guess. I guess to gang members, we law abiding citizens are nothing but a hate group from their point of view. Ok, let the comments rip!

I don’t know anything about FAIR. I also don’t know anything about SPLC, but I don’t see what relevance identifying the Holocaust shooter as a white supremacist has to anything. Are you trying to associate FAIR with the Holocaust shooter? That is hateful.

I do know Jay O’Brien and Bob Marshall. As far as I know, both are decent men. I also know what Obama and the Democratic Party are doing. Their policies are taking our nation in directions many of us do not want to go. We have the right to complain and to have of complaints taken seriously.

Frankly, this post reeks of attempt to scare people with unsupported accusations. Instead of honestly dealing with the issues, you are engaging in name calling. That is hateful.

Admin Note: Maybe you should investigate the speakers and their representative organizations before attending and promoting this event? You’re claims of ignorance only go so far. You now have the information, what are you going to do with it?

Once one starts peeling back the layers, FAIR doesn’t fair too well.

Citizen Tom, I think that was Alanna’s point. Why would they want to associate themselves with FAIR?

Tanton, creator of FAIR, is just a slick willy. 20 some years ago I belonged to a fairly liberal group, Zero Population Growth. The main objective of this organization was to encourage people to only replace themselves. It was pro-choice and pro-reproductive rights but talked about the earth becoming over-populated. I guess that made it a pro-environmental group also.

Guess who the founder of ZPG was? Come to find out, years later, it was Tanton, founder of FAIR. I guess he wanted to cover all his bases. Apparently the board of ZPG didn’t like his direction for the organization. ZPG no longer exists, to my knowledge.

I have seen how some people peel back the layers. They count the number of disagreements.

The point of freedom is that we don’t have to agree about everything. We just have to allow each other to live in peace.

Our government exists to defend this nation and our rights. That includes establishing appropriate immigration policies. Our government is derelict. What our government is effectively doing is taxing us so corporate interests can use our money to attract cheap labor across the border. Has that got some people angry? Of course it does. Are some people calling some of those angry people hateful? Seems to me that is the case.

We have a confused situation. It is similar to what happens when a woman is raped. In some cultures, it is not unusual to blame the rape victim. It is presumed that the victim somehow incited her attacker. Fortunately, that assumption is no longer acceptable in the USA. Nonetheless, such behavior still exists in the USA. Out of sympathy for the illegal aliens, we are forgetting the burden these aliens place on the average American taxpayer. In fact, when the taxpayer complains, we blame the victim.

—sigh—

Can we all agree that Tanton has created a multi-headed snake to accomplish his goals? FAIR and ZPG have nothing in common except the same ‘father.’

What has happened in our area seems to have less to do with corportate America and more to do with what happens when a few with a personal agenda, using the resources of FAIR, attempt to hi-jack our local government.

The Republicans in Virginia have been attempting for years to exploit the immigration issue. The results of such a tactic have included losing the governship (twice), one house of the legislature, and both Senate seats. Obama also defeated Mccain here in the last election.

When are the Republicans going to realize that the illegal immigration issue is a loser?

If insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, then the Repubs are ready for a padded cell.

Alanna, I hate to break this to you, but there are essentially no minorities at the “tea parties” as it is.

I am not a fan of the “tea parties,” nor am I a fan of F.A.I.R. and the anti-immigrant electioneering strategy. Thus, the fact that the two seem to be morphing into one is no great surprise, nor a cause for alarm. Since we are peeling back layers on this thread, let’s admit the fact that each of these “movements” stems from the same bankrupt and cynical approach to politics.

In the wake of Katrina, the Iraq fiasco, and the global credit meltdown, it is indeed a challenge for us to define, update, and reassert conservative political thought. To properly achieve such a rebirth we will need to allow some time for research, for many volumes of writing from new voices and from old ones, for critique and discourse and consensus building. But with elections every 2 years (or, tragically, every year as is the case in Virginia), hungry and hyper-competitive partisans in the Republican party are too impatient to even begin such a process.

Instead of engaging the public in a long term discussion that might, at times, get bogged down in factual details that require patience and focus to comprehend … instead of embarking on a philosophical journey that might take a few years to run its course but will lead to new ideas and new approaches, these talented but hasty operatives and electioneers prefer to exploit the false notions and banal prejudices that certain constituencies already posses. This is how racial prejudice and anti-immigrant sentiment suddenly becomes a political issue when before it was merely an unpleasant but gradually receding undercurrent. And, this is how rigid libertarian beliefs that, if taken to their logical conclusion, would simply lead to anarchy, become the battle cry for a series of “tea parties” organized by cable news producers.

Rather than lifting people into the exploration and consideration of new ideas that could carry us into a new, rebranded and modern conservatism, far too many Republican strategists are lowering themselves, and the party, in order to exploit a few very old ideas that we truly ought to be forgetting. It is little wonder that two lazy strategies are now fusing into one. They are each manifestations of a counter-productive and self-defeating school of thought.

Speaking of counter-productive, how exactly is the support of illegal immigration productive? I know, no one here supports illegal immigration, Right! If you don’t, then why all the anger at those who oppose illegal immigration? Sure seems to me by default that many here do indeed support illegal immigration.

SA,

We don’t support “illegal immigration”, we support the PEOPLE (HUMANS), that are illegal immigrants. If there was a path for them to get here legally, which is what we are all advocating, then there wouldn’t be a need for “illegal immigration”.

Lets see……..We don’t support crime, we support the criminals. Hmmmmmmmm Sounds very similar to me! Further, if we ended shop-lifting laws, then we would end shop-lifting convictions. What a concept! NOT

I can’t say the ILLEGAL ALIENS are completely to blame for the shape of our economy, but they are a BIG part of the problem. The ILLEGAL ALIENS send BILLIONS upon BILLIONS out of this Country every year, money we will NEVER see again. Does this help our economy?

How about the BILLIONS the American taxpayers fork out for the ILLEGAL ALIEN BABIES, the schooling of them, the medical care and the list goes on, and on, and on.

How about the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS paid to jail ILLEGAL ALIENS for the crimes, then the cost to deport them. Does this help our economy?

Then you have these activist groups, the Catholic Church and the ACLU that want AMNESTY for these ILLEGAL ALIENS. It would be absolute suicide for this Country if AMNESTY were granted to the 20 million or so ILLEGAL ALIENS. We have more and more people out of work everyday and they want to add another 20 million to this Country? I say, “NO”!

If AMNESTY were ever granted to these 20 million ILLEGAL ALIENS, you can bet big money that 3 years from now, there would be ANOTHER 3-5 million ILLEGAL ALIENS demonstrating on our soil for AMNESTY.

An end MUST come to this illegal immigration. The perfect tool we have so far is E-Verify. It MUST be used by ALL businesses and Government Social Services. EVERY employee must be checked! If they are illegal, they are to be dismissed!

I believe it is time for all 50 States to pass a State law, like Arizona, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Missouri, South Carolina and a few others. It is time for these ILLEGAL ALIENS to go back to their home Country and get out of this Country. The problems they are causing will not go away until the ILLEGAL ALIENS are out of this Country. I think that is plain to see.

It’s time for ZERO TOLERENCE with these ILLEGAL ALIENS. It’s time for them to get back to their own country where they belong. If they truly want to be part of America, let them apply and wait their turn like the millions of others who want to come to America LEGALLY. They will then be welcomed with open arms.

NO ILLEGAL ALIEN HAS A RIGHT TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY FOR ANY REASON!

So FAIR is a hate group according to SPLC…right…OK. Last I looked, any organization that isn’t a radical leftist organization is a hate group according to SPLC. It’s as if Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or Jeremiah Wright called FAIR a hate group. The SPLC’s whole reason for existing is to label other organizations hate groups. Here, how’s this sound? SPLC hates hate-groups, therefore, they are a hate group themselves. I like that!

The SPLC correctly identified the Holocaust museum shooter as a white supremacist…..OMG, they’re BRILLIANT! All that required was a primitive hindbrain! But oh, their insight is laser-sharp!

WHWN, If running on the issue of illegal immigration hurts the republicans so badly, then why dosent it hurt the democrats. Both my state delegate (Nicols) and my state senator (Barker) ran a strong campaign on cracking down on illegal immigrants – and voted accordingly in Richmond.

Im not trying to make a point here. Seriously, just wondering why democrats dont get much criticism when they are tough on the illegal immigration issue.

I thought that was funny too Slowpoke – anyone with even a small amount of intelligence could have identified the holocaust museum shooter as a white supremacist. I laughed out loud when I read that one!

“We are mad as hell, and we aren’t going to take take this anymore!!!”

That is the basic theme of the 2009 Tea Parties. This is America -
conservatives have as much right to rant and rave as liberals.
That is one of the many gifts we celebrate on July 4th.

(With a nod to the late Oscar winning Peter Finch who played
Howard Beale in the 1976 movie classic “Network”).

On the other hand, has ADL said anything about FAIR? (not a rhetorical ? I don’t know)

SPLC came along long before Sharpton and Wright had any notoriety.

So let’s put it another way, who should be in charge of labeling questionable groups? Is there a clearing house?

I don’t think that FAIR is a hate group. I think it’s the liberal fascism to label them so.

One of the reasons FAIR is so tarnished Citizen Tom, is their past relationship with the Pioneer Fund,a staunch supporter of the “science” of eugenics. You know, that silly old thing that gave rise to the murder of millions based on the notion of “superior” vs “inferior” races. Alanna isn’t suggesting that FAIR is the same as the neo nazi nut whose intention was to kill many more than one brave security guard at the Holocaust museum, her point is that the SPLC had identified him some time ago, through his writings, as being a hate blogger.

If you don’t know the history of either organization, FAIR or SPLC, you may want to do some independent research. Are you familiar with the Anti defamation League http://www.adl.org. They also have their own negative commentary on FAIR. FAIR is opposed to all immigration. Were it up to them, immigration would halt this instant.

Strike that “the” and I have what I mean to say.

http://fairimmigration.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/southern-poverty-law-center-lists-fair-as-hate-group/

The same logic could be used to label the Republican party as a hate group. Or any particular denomination of the Christian Church.

“The most terrifying number in all of this? A 35% increase in hate crimes against latinos. ” Over what time frame? What was the population growth of Latinos in that time frame? And what was the increase in hate crimes BY Latinos during that time frame? I’m not trying to minimize hate crimes, but I’m saying this statement is so simplistic that I would asume that it masks the fact that hate crimes against Latinos are probably growing less dramatically then it tries to imply.

http://www.adl.org/civil_rights/is_fair_unfair.pdf

I believe these numbers are based on a report by the FBI Rick. Uh oh, is the FBI now a facist liberal group?!

“FAIR is opposed to all immigration. ” Temporarily, as I understand it.

I have sympathy with FAIR. I think that on the subject of legal immigration, some is a good thing, but we have allowed our ruling elites, through their political mouthpieces, to import labor to the detriment of American wages. This Bill Gates arguement that we need to allow him and his cronies to bring in every Engineer they may possibly have use for is nonsense. I’ve seen for myself office-fuls of underemployed engineers on H-1 Visas, doing hardly any work. I’ve seen for myself the game of “we’re going to post this ad in the lunch room corner about an open position, please don’t encourage anyone to respond to it because we really just want to use it to justify bringing in another foreign worker”. It’s frequently a sham undertaken by companies to lower wages.

I also have a pet peeve about us letting, say, half of El Salvador in here for no particular reason that I can discern except because some of them are good gardeners and nannies for the Ted Kennedys of the world. I’d like some public discussion about that. I’d like to talk about what that is doing to inner cities, most notably DC.

Some is good, and I’m not saying I agree with FAIR about this or that. But it seems to me they are making a civil arguement, about a highly relevant subject, that bears discussion rather than trusting our highly corrupt leadership to “do the right thing”.

I guess Elena you accuse FAIR of “hate crime by thought” or some such thing and by the Orwell Act of 1984 sentence them to eternal silence.

I hear you Alanna. I still don’t think that, even if we stipulate that the leadership contains racists (I don’t know enough to make that judgementy personally) that it makes FAIR a hate group.

I share skepticism about what they’re doing at the “tea party” also. I just object to using the term hate group.

Even a blind dog finds a bone and even a white supremecist is occasionally right …

I listen to Daniel Carver of the KKK on Stern’s show once in a while – I’m kind of struck by how elements of his world view parallel mine. His line is “cheap labor is the white man’s kryptonite”. The slavery which caused the African-American precense in America that he hates/fears was indeed caused, as was much human suffering and misery, by desire for cheap labor. He sees tolerance of “Mexicans” as a continuation of that, and in a way it is.

I believe though that the levels of current immigration aren’t being calibrated in the interest of average Americans, but are being calibrated by our politicians so as to maximize profit for the bueinessholders they are beholden to. I think we need public debate on this issue and sunlight on what’s done in our names.

Rick,
I can’t argue with you statement ” I think we need public debate on this issue and sulight on what’s being done in our names”. Let’s also not forget how the history of immigration tends to repeat itself with the same arguments, and yet, somehow, we have thrived as a nation.

I thought “Tea Parties” were about taxes and government spending. How did immigration creep in to this? Perhaps the old adage ” What if you throw a party and nobody comes” can explain this.

Point taken Elena.

It appears to me the “Tea Parties” are starting to become a form of protest about anything one does not like about the current government. Kind of does go against the original purpose, to be something like the historical Boston Tea Party protest against taxes.

Rick has a point about the importing of skilled technical workers from other countries, which is indeed what Bill Gates and people like him are fighting to increase those amounts. At the same time they export jobs overseas where they hire cheap labor. In my field of software engineering, it is a real problem. The only slight protection you have, is if you work on DOD contracts – where one has to be a US Citizen to gain a clearance. Those jobs are at least safe from that sort of thing, although they aren’t safe from cutbacks in defense spending, which has happened in certain administrations. But for the software industry as a whole, this is a huge problem, that people like Bill Gates aren’t helping when they do this while many software engineers find themselves out of work due to outsourcing. IBM is a big culprit with the outsourcing thing too and actually has had some sofware engineers train their foreign counterparts, and when the training is finished, lay off those engineers!

Anyway, that’s a topic for a separate debate, but it is something most American high tech workers have a right to be concerned about.

Agree with GR.

Gates is my pet peeve. He’s an internationalist and that’s fine for him. He’s currently engaged in giving away most of his ill-gotten gains, to impoverished countries. Okay. But don’t use him as a poster child in front of Congress pretending that he’s representing America or Americans when he makes his phony pleas for more worker visas.

We could go round and round about what qualifies as a hate group. The majority of people in America are uncomfortable with things like eugenics and white supremacist attitudes. FAIR does a good job of sanitizing their wording but the lies they concoct are clearly designed to harvest hatred for a political agenda. And that political agenda is clearly stated on their website: ever since they started allowing darker skinned people to immigrate in larger numbers, FAIR has been opposed to immigration in general.

I may have said this before, I think that one’s vision of SPLC depends on whose ox is being gored. I didn’t care much for them designating UDC as a hate group or whatever it was that they designated them as. I have known too many little old ladies who kept graves cleaned and deweeded for me to say that the Daughters of the Confederacy is a hate group.

On the other hand, the Holocaust Museum wacko was identified by them long before he went on his rampage. They have been around for a long time. Law enforcement seems to feel they are good enough to use as a resource.

FAIR daddy Tanton certainly has tried to recruit people from many walks of life, political persuassion, etc under different banners, all for the same end purpose.

So can we agree that both SPLC and ADL both do definite good in identifying groups that are targeting groups of people? Can we give them an 80%?

“A 1997 study by the National Academy of Sciences found that
the fiscal impact of an immigrant with less than a high school
education drains the U.S. economy of $13,000 over their lifetime,
and most immigrants tend to fall into this category.”
Los Angeles Times (5-21-2003)

The National Academy of Sciences – another hate group?

Does anyone else see the irony here? Some of our regulars are complaining that nationally recognized civil rights organizations research, find evidence to support, and then announce certain classifications that marginalizes anti-immigrant, white-supremacist, and other racial separatist groups. They call this an unfair label. Then they turn around, and without any research and without any evidence in support, they accuse everyone on this blog of being in favor of illegal immigration.

I would say that SPLC and ADL have earned the right to make these determinations, and those who sympathize with certain groups that are marginalized by such classifications are free to complain. However, it might be wise to first complain about an unfair label slapped on a group you sympathize with, and then wait at least a little while before slapping an unfair label on others.

Ivan :
I thought “Tea Parties” were about taxes and government spending. How did immigration creep in to this? Perhaps the old adage ” What if you throw a party and nobody comes” can explain this.

“nobody comes?” Whose coverage of the Tea Parties were you watching? Let me guess, PMSNBC, right?

Actually, I would say the same thing is true of some posters on the blog in terms of accusing various people not in favor of illegal immigration, of being “anti-immigration”. It seems to pretty much equal out – as far as the number of posters claiming people on the blog are in favor of illegal immigration, and the number of posters on the blog claiming some other people are ‘anti-immigration’. I’d call it a draw as far as those two things go, from seeing posts on this blog over time. Both sides have posters on this blog who do one of the two things. So there isn’t that much irony after all, if you ask me.

@Witness Too
Well, I seem to recall one or your ilk labeling the Rasmussen polling organization a hate group, so I guess it works both ways, doesn’t it?

Of course, Witness Too might not have been around when terms like racist and Nazi were slung around unfairly.

@Alanna
Alanna – Illegal immigration is illegal. Our government has Constitutional authority to regulate immigration and to punish people who cross our border without permission. Regulating immigration is part of what comes with sovereignty.

I have heard all kinds of excuses for illegal immigrants. Illegals are hard workers. Our economy cannot survive without illegals. We cannot control the border no matter what we do. And so forth. These complaints are hogwash. Consider what is common knowledge. Our government makes no serious effort find, punish, and deport illegals. Immigration laws have been deliberately weaken, and those they remain are weakly enforced.

Illegal immigration is symptomatic of larger problems. Because the citizens of this nation will not control their greed, we have lost control of our government. Look at what our government is doing. It has become an agent for income redistribution. In fact, we elected a president who said to Joe the Plumber that government should redistribute the wealth.

What does redistributing the wealth mean in practice? Have you ever heard of a daisy chain? We have become a nation of people sneaking up behind each other and reaching into each others pockets and purses. Instead of apologizing for and being ashamed of thievery, we now look for excuses.

Illegal immigration is just another form of national thievery. Where is the thievery in illegal immigration? Illegals sneak across the border, stealing access and trespassing. Employers abuse our welfare programs, “free” health care, “free” public education, and so forth to attract illegal immigrants.

As to your Admin Comment on my first comment. I don’t set myself up as judge and jury. I don’t like the content of this post. I think it borders on libelous, but I did not judge you. I said this post strikes me as hateful. I did not say you should be ostracized or restrained from speaking your mind. Instead, I defended people I know from what I considered your imprudent and ill advised words.

Because I know many of the people organizing and participating in the Prince William County Tea Party, I have no problem promoting the event. In fact, I appreciate you letting me know about it, but I am not going to try to investigate everyone involved. That task would serve no real purpose, and it would be beyond my means.

Consider the weakness of your own investigation, and you want me to investigate every party involve. And what if I did not find a closet skeleton I supposedly should have found, what then? Is God going to let someone into heaven who does not belong there?

I think I will stick to discussing issues and facts I can prove. I will leave the judgment of my fellow human beings to a higher authority.

Citizen Tom,

You stated, in one post, more than once, that your focus is on our border. I imagine you are alluding to our “southern” border as I haven’t heard public rants about too many Canadians. What this tells me is that you too are focused on one group of people. If I am wrong, please correct me.

It seems to me that you are being defensive as you appear to have emotional investments, i.e. personal relationships, with many of the people organizing the “tea” party. Do you know that half the immigrants here without proper documentation overstay their visa’s? They haven’t “snuck” across any border and are from MANY different countries. I am disappointed that you too, seem to have fallen into the trap of organizations like FAIR. Are there issues with immigration, sure, but from what I can tell, people have been complaining about the scurge of immigrants since Ben Frankin complained about the Dutch Amish.

As far as Alanna being liable….HUH? I have reread this post, several times, exactly where are her words “ill advised” ?

Here are your words that led me to believe you were focused on one group:

“We cannot control the border no matter what we do.”

“Our government has Constitutional authority to regulate immigration and to punish people who cross our border without permission.”

“Illegals sneak across the border, stealing access and trespassing.”

Alanna, what there is is a wealth of accusations. Yours included.

I did not shoot you. I said what you are doing is wrong. You are picking out one group from amongst many and using unproven charges against that group to smear all the people involved in the event. That is not good judgment, and it is not right.

Then you would have me waste my time with needless investigations of a “wealth of information” you have not apparently considered yourself. Why should you bother? It is just a bunch of finger pointing. You can form any conclusion you want.

We are talking about politics. Should I consider giving FAIR money, then I would investigate them. Otherwise, don’t we all have enough to do. Isn’t our time better spent investigating the issues, candidate positions, and the competence of the people we have running for public office?

whoops, Ben FRANKLIN, not Frankin, clearly “freudian slip” given todays news

Citizen Tom is right, Alanna is picking a fight and trying to smear everyone with mud from one group by “association” rather than “facts”.

That is like say Martin Luther King was a terrorist because he spoke at the same rally attended by some Black panthers.

Don’t you get it Alanna?

“One bad apple don’t spoil the whole bunch girl”, in reverence to the recent passing of Michael Jackson.

Those of us who have been politically active know that these are the types of things that can come back to bite you in the butt:

For every “One bad apple” there is a matching “Birds of a feather flock together.”

Additionally, we know that FAIR takes on different ‘tones.’ They can be all sweet. mainstream and stictly concerned over illegal immigration. Then there is the FAIR who questions most immigration as seen below, taken from their own website:

Virginia

The northern Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C. have become a hotbed of immigration reform activism in recent years. In 2006, the city of Herndon voted out of office all but one local official who had supported a day labor hiring site for illegal aliens. More recently, Prince William County has attracted national attention by insti??tuting local immigration enforcement policies and cooperating closely with federal immigration authorities. A new report by the University of Virginia demonstrates why local residents are so concerned about mass immigration. The report finds that one in five northern Virginia residents is now foreign-born and statewide the immigrant population has doubled since 1980. This rapid influx of both government sanctioned and illegal immigrants has strained local resources and contributed to population driven sprawl in the region.

.

I often agree with Citizen Tom on other issues, but I must admit I am puzzled to see him spending so much energy in an attempt to defend an organization with white supremacist roots, white supremacist members, and white supremacist funding … especially one with a track record as disturbing as F.A.I.R.’s. There are others on this blog that do not surprise me. Citizen Tom surprises me.

In any case, let’s look at the substance of Alanna’s basic assertion: that a politician, or former politician, might be tarred by appearing on the same stage with an organization with white supremacist ties.

Well, that all depends on who they want to impress.

Jay O’Brien has nothing to lose … and, really, nothing he can possibly win unless he carpetbags to another district … so let’s set him aside for a moment. Bob Marshall? On one hand, I can see Alanna’s point. He is up for reelection, and thus may want to reconsider speaking at this event now that F.A.I.R.’s involvement creates the stigma of an anti-immigrant hate rally. However, I think it would be fair to say that Marshall has never gone out of his way to pander to moderates. Now, I do give him credit for keeping his composure and holding his tongue for the most part during TheGregNCorey Show’s Anti-Immigrant Jihad of 2007, but Marshall’s core constituency is to the right of the mainstream. He wins if they come out to vote. He loses if they do not. So, appearing at this rally is not a bad move for him.

Alanna is right in one respect: any politician who was worried about his polling among moderate Republicans, Democrats, and independents might want to think twice before sharing the stage with an anti-immigrant hate group like F.A.I.R. But, any politician who would show up at a “tea party” in the first place is not exactly concerned about moderate Republicans, Democrats, or independents. So, I don’t expect Marshall to pull out of this one. He’d anger those who support him more than he would woo those who doubt him.

Our hosts are bringing attention to a significant political phenomenon: The effort by some anti-2I groups to glom on to the Tea Party movement. I personally feel that this is a bad development for the tax focus of the Tea Party crowd and reflects some degree of desperation by the anti-2Is, at least some of the more voluble and uninhibited ones who have done a lousy job (or who had no inclination in the first place) of hustling out the door some pretty unabashed racists whose real problem with illegal immigration is that they have a very negative, general, undifferentiated view of hispanic human beings. Of course, it’s possible to be very much anti-illegal immigration (I put myself in that camp) (or even anti-immigration) (I don’t put myself in that one) without the slightest racist leanings, but anyone who would deny that racists exist in loud proportion in the anti-2I movement has never followed this issue on the street, in the media or on the blogs. The skinhead/Klan/Aryan Supremacist mindset is very visible, and is virtually never (I’m tempted to say “never” without qualification, but I’m not omniscient) sent packing by the people who have appointed themselves to lead the charge on being anti-illegal immigration, whether it be in Prince William or in other places around the Nation. The folks who demagogue the issue for their own personal advancement have never, to my knowledge, mounted an effective, consistent attack on all the low and nasty elements that are attracted to this issue. They take the ignorance and hatred and harness it up for votes, for mini-fame, for ego-gratification. Once you allow yourself to get paid in that currency, you’re no better than the people whose rabble you’re rousing.

As for Citizen Tom’s point, he’s right that one can make an argument that there’s continuity between the legitimate concerns of the Tea Party movement and economic arguments that are made by some of the anti-2I community (I think that point is embedded in the flurry of things he says in No. 50). My own view after spending a lot of time studying the economic arguments fairly closely is that most of these arguments are palpably and obviously hooey, but I know many folks sincerely believe them. If one believes that lax federal immigration enforcement and spotty border control contribute to economic dislocation and public costs that drive tax increases, this is squarely part of the ethos of the Tea Party movement. The problem noted by the original post, however, is that there are some sectors of the anti2I movement that are so feverish, and so tainted by the company they keep, that the Tea Party organizers should have the basic decency and good sense not to let their movement be compromised either as to its focus, or its good name by getting mushed together with them. From what I’ve seen and heard about F.A.I.R., I would keep my distance from them. If that message isn’t clear at the get-go of the Tea Party movement, it will lose some, if not all of the gains it has made so far, and its enemies will marginalize it by reference to its dilution by these other elements.

An alternative point of view here – Obama for years listened to his minister preach racist idea’s. So by the logic above, that would associate Obama with him, yet I seem to recall many on this blog somehow giving him a pass for that. You can’t have it both ways!

GR, couldn’t we say that the impact of Obama’s relationship to that preacher has been evaluated by the voters and factored into the electoral results of last November? Obama squarely denounced the sentiments expressed by the Rev. Wright. Nonetheless, a number of voters probably voted against Obama because of the association and/or because they felt Obama’s denunciation was not timely or sincere.

A different point is being made here (I think). It is that the Tea Party group is relatively new and is addressing tax issues. This isn’t about whether Tea Party fans go to a church where the minister says wacky, scurrilous things. It’s about whether the TP movement will diminish itself or lose its focus by being associated with a group that has questionable links to certain elements and/or which has done little or nothing to distance itself from some of the more unsavory motivations for anti-2I sentiment.

I’m seeing the buzz here about Tito the Builder and happen to know he will be far from PW County that day. He’ll be speaking in D.C. on July 4th at the Tea Party in front of the Capitol, along with several other great speakers who are focusing on matters other than immigration. Also, Tito spoke at a Tea Party in D.C. last April and did not speak at the one in PW County. Count him among the flea-less.
Here’s a link showing the D.C. event:
http://teapartywdc.ning.com/events/tea-party-fourth-of-july

I just will have to disagree Nova Scout. Those who want to link people who attend or speak at one event for one day and not link Obama, who for 20 years associated himself with this preacher, just aren’t being reasonable. Yes, the voters have voted, but you still can’t have it both ways.

Ben Franken?? Thanks for a good laugh.

“Moral Values: From what I understand, if you cut out all the passages
in the Bible where Jesus talks about the poor and about helping the
least among us, you’d have the perfect container to smuggle
Rush Limbaugh’s drugs in.”
Senator Al Franken

GR, Obama isn’t the issue. I personally had strong reservations about Obama because of his link to the not so right Reverend Wright. Am I totally ok with it now? No. However, President Obama did distance himself from Wright. He not only distanced himself from Wright, he also denounced the rhetoric.

When NoVA Scout talks, I have always listened. What he says makes a great deal of sense, as usual.

The Tea Party Movement has a great chance, given politics in general at the present time, of becoming a major movement. If the riff raff of the anti-immigration movement hangs on to its coattails, that will be a strong detractor from the original intent.

FAIR has a long enough paper trail of questionable beliefs/people/attitude that I would think the Tea Party folks would just stay clear.

NoVA Scout, welcome back. As usual, we are always glad when you share your opinions.

Alanna :Hold up. If I’m a speaker at an event, it’s incumbent upon me to know the line-up. Just put aside the ‘hate group’ designation, FAIR very clearly believes legal immigration should be cut by greater than 2/3. That’s one of their principles and a basic motivating factor for them, no accusation, it’s pure fact.
Are you suggesting that primary participants in an organized event shouldn’t consider underlying motivation and beliefs of other primary participants? It’s not like this is some unknown detail about this organization. If these politicians willingly agree to share the stage with this organization then the implication is that they are not opposed to their purpose and principles. It’s really not that complicated, so forget about research and accusations, blah, blah, blah, just focus on what FAIR says about themselves. That’s really all that needs to be examined.

So that I understand your point, could you please elaborate? Because they advocate a reduction in legal immigration and opposed to all illegal immigration, it sounds like a difference of opinion rather than hate or racism. I do not follow the ups and downs of immigration quotas so I can’t really opine on that.

You say to forget all the debate about whether they are a hate group for this discussion and concentrate on their stated position. But that makes it sound like you don’t agree with their positions, therefore they are bad.

I am not sure you mean to say that. So I am a bit confused.

An Ordinary Joe,
I would recommend you do some indepenedent research on FAIR.

I’ll only say about Obama, he didn’t denounce Wright fast enough for my taste, although i will agree he did denounce that kind of rhetoric. But it was only after a fair amount of criticsm about Wright came out, that he finally denounced him. For a long time he was silent, and it still begs the question if you dislike that rhetoric, how could you sit and listen to it for 20 years? I agree though, the voters decided it was a non-issue, but I guess I still think it is a fair comparison to compare speaking or attending an event for one day, to sitting there for 20 years listening to that stuff, and counting that person as a friend or spritual advisor.

Anyway, that’s the point I’m making, and I think I’ve said my piece on it.

I have no interest in going to the “Tea Party” actually, in case somehow my posts made it sound like I was planning to attend it.

Alanna :
Poor Richard,
The hate group designation probably originates from the acceptance of funding by the Pioneer Group and memos written by FAIR’s founder.

IF that’s the case, the ACLU should undoubtedly be branded a hate group by the SPLC. The ACLU and SPLC are too politically aligned for that to happen.

I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the SPLC hate brand. The only people that give them any legitimacy are your faithful. Preaching to the choir? Shouting in the echo chamber?

Admin Note: The Southern Poverty Law Center was recently in the mainstream media for correctly identifying the white supremacist accused of the Holocaust museum shooting. They are used by law enforcement agencies across the country. And the worst accusations against them are they are too liberal or left leaning and that the founder accepts too much money from the organization. These two things don’t seem to discredit them. In my opinion, they offer a valuable resource that isn’t available elsewhere. If you’re tired of hearing about SPLC then perhaps you should read Elena’s link from the Anti-defamation League. Personally, I don’t need either organization to tell me what is so blatantly obvious.

HUH Mando? The ACLU defends the right of people to speak their minds, they adovcate “freedom of speech”, even the KKK has the right to preach hate of minorities. However, I wouldn’t not invite the KKK to a “tea party” just because the have the constitutional right to spew division and prejudice.

Also, for those who blame sprawl on illegal immigration, not sure where you have been the past several years, but I have fought sprawl. I can tell you, as I told Dan Stein, it is not the fault of illegal immigrants, that is simply ignorant to suggest that. It is the fault of poor land use planning, expensive land, and people wanting more for less. It’s the big planned communities on land that is cheaper, futher out from the cities, that creates sprawl. NOT the fault of immigration. When people suggest that sprawl is the fault of illegal immigration, that tells me that we have truly gone to an argument, not based on fact, but based on convenient scapegoating. As the former treasurer for Voters to Stop Sprawl Princ William County, never ONCE, did we see, nor did any sister organization see immigration, illegal or otherwise, at the nexus of sprawl!

Alanna, thanks for some clarification. I do not intend to be part of the tea party and I know very little about FAIR. And I certainly not opposed to controlled immigration policies. It would seem to me that if there is a tax connection to illegal immigration then providing an opportunity to address that issue is a valid public discourse. It is what this country is founded on, that people with differning views are not restricted (without a valid governmental interest such as public safety etc).

Because an individual speaks at a rally that has other speakers does not automatically mean that the person agrees with the other point of view. Now if FAIR invited Mr. Marshall to speak at its rally and he did not dispute the positions of FAIR, then I would assume that Mr. Marshall agreed with FAIR. But not just because they are speaking at the same event hosted by another party. Just my opinion.

NoVA Scout – You are advocating political purity? You are uncomfortable about FAIR? That is certainly a specific complaint and a great reason to demand that FAIR be ostracized.

The Tea Party meetings are protests against radical change. To be effective, these protests must involve loosely affiliated coalitions. That is the only way to get anything approaching a majority.

All the Tea Party protesters have in common is that they do not like the radical policies that are currently being pursued by the folks in Washington. Given the variety of beliefs in this country, some members of any coalition will have to agree to disagree. Politics requires that we occasionally form common cause with people with whom we might otherwise not particularly care to associate.

Where do we draw the line? We don’t associate with people we know to be engaged in or in support of immoral activities. Alanna has yet to offer any proof that FAIR is involved in any such thing. All we have is the word of some outfit that has appointed itself to ID hate groups. Given the readiness of some on the Left to ID any who disagree with them as hateful, it is hard to take such an accusation seriously.

All sorts of things have contributed to sprawl in the region – and immigration of any sort, wouldn’t seem to me to be on that list. It is more the way suburbs just keep expanding outwards, and developers keep being encouraged to build more and more housing in what was once undeveloped areas. That statement about illegal immigration creating sprawl really makes no sense.

Actually, the only place I saw sprawl mentioned regarding immigration is in that quote from FAIR, going back rereading things. I don’t think anyone here on the blog has ever tried to make any connection between sprawl and illegal immigration. Somehow it sounded like there had been, but rereading things I don’t think that’s the case.

Some of my friends and relatives have a growing issue with
the “invasion” of their nation from the crazy one directly
south of them and how it is changing their beloved country
— they are Canadians. Today, in case you forgot it
(never knew it,ey?) is Canada Day – or as we old folks still
call it Dominion Day – July 1st.

” In history class, in seventh grade (or as we say in Canada,
grade seven) we learned the story of the American revolution
– from the British perspective. Turns out you were all a
bunch of tax cheats and you weren’t very nice to the Loyalist.”
Malcolm Gladwell
” Canada is like a well-behaved family forced to live over a
biker bar.”
Robin Williams

Indeed, one remembers the Vietnam War draft dodgers – I think nearly 100,000 of whom went to Canada – and initially weren’t exactly welcomed there but then at some point were given legal immigrant status.

Actually, I wonder in recent times how many American citizens have emigrated to Canada?

Hi GR,
I think I mentioned sprawl again because there is a tendency to blame illegal immigration on all our ills as a nation.

Mando, the ACLU was right there for Westboro Baptist Church freaks of nature in the latest Supreme Court Decision reaffirming their right to be there causing a ruckus at the funerals of US servicemen. (The God hates fags bunch) That doesn’t sound very SPLC to me, so I don’t think we can say those 2 organizations are in bed together.

GR, I agree with what you said about Obama and Rev Wright. However, given the option of him or You Bettcha Winkathon Palin, I felt there was no choice. So, I am sitting back, waiting, watching, and giving the guy a chance. It is very difficult to cut through all the enemy talk though.

Elena, and I mentioned sprawl because FAIR talked about sprawl. It all goes back to FAIR.

I agree about Obama, but a lot of what he is doing has given me pause – his plan to close Gitmo is not well though out, his health care programs are going to cost those who are already insured money (how much is yet to be determined, whether their existing insurance plan is affected is also a real possibility) and now the talk about a possible 2nd bailout of some companies also concerns me. Just to name a few things, but that is off topic for this thread.

Elena just had me confused when she said the following phrase: “Also, for those who blame sprawl on illegal immigration, not sure where you have been the past several years, but I have fought sprawl.” The way I read it, I got the implication that sprawl and immigration had been discussed on this blog somehow, when I didn’t remember that. Perhaps I just misread what the intended statement was there. Surely FAIR would have no idea of Elena’s membership in any local growth control organization.

When it comes to tea parties I think that they should just concentrate on the absurd spending going on and the massive taxes that will soon be coming to pay for it all. Adding immigration to it just mucks it up.

Wasn’t it Obama who said that NOBODY making less than $250k would pay a cent more in taxes?!? HA! What a joke that was, it’s odd that people that voted for him are still not holding him to that or questioning it.

Also, someone had mentioned bailouts… Does anyone know how GE, which is not a bank, got over $140 billion in bailout money? Easy, they bought two small Utah banks and presto, the Obama administration gives them $140 billion in out tax money essentially buying the white house it’s very own new outlet in NBC and MSNBC (which GE directly owns).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/28/AR2009062802955.html

Also, when all of the banks and car companies got bailout money what happened to all of their execs? They were paraded out and bashed and publicly humiliated by just about every elected official. What did they do to GE’s CEO you ask? Obama rewards him with an appointment to his very own economic advisory team! Just watch, something shady is going on with this administration and GE and nobody is asking about it. Why?

That is that type of crap that is bringing people to tea parties. Ill give it to Obama on one thing, he did bring change to Washington. It went from bad to OMG, what the hell is going on!?!

Alanna – Being against immigration and for zero population growth does not make FAIR a hate group.

Are you sure you are not attacking people just because they do not think like you? It sure looks like it.

Admin Note: Go re-read what I said.

Put the ‘hate-group’ designation aside, just look at their beliefs and principles and that should be sufficient for the organization to be excluded from the American Family Association event. Additionally, we should hold politicians accountable for their willingness to work alongside these groups. Nothing too radical here folks.

Old Fashioned, reminder, Alanna did not designate FAIR as a hate group. SPLC made that designation.

What I find suspicious about ZPG and FAIR is that both organizations are very different and both were started by the same man. On a more extreme level, it would be tantamount to discovering that the same person started the KKK and the ACLU.

Hello, GE has a financial arm. That is one reason that the stock lost so much value.

The SPLC also designates the American Legion as a hate group…

12 million people do not contribute to sprawl? Then where do they live? I guess they aren’t driving cars either because that would be against the law.

GE’s financial arm is a pretty large part of the company actually. It has been a drag on GE’s profits, as MH noted. There is some talk of it perhaps being spun off from GE, actually.

Yes GR but GE’s financial arm didn’t qualify for bailout money. So they bought two small Utah banks to get hundreds of billions of our tax dollars and then their CEO gets appointed to his economic recovery team, that is the point.

How does a CEO who runs a company that needed $140 billion qualify to be given such an honor? Because he just happens to own NBC and MSNBC who can push his agenda, that’s how.

I wonder what it is the American Legion allegedly hates, according to the SPLC. Would be interesting to find out.

Wasn’t hard to find, I just googled SPLC American Legion and here’s what I found:

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/10/31/american-legion-attacks-report-and-splc-responds/

Indeed, it is a true statement the SPLC considers the American Legion a hate group!

Interestingly enough, just blundering around their website a few seconds – they define the Jewish Defense League as a hate group too. One can debate at some length about the JDL, but they respond to hatred against Jews, so I’m not sure that makes them automatically a hate group. Once again, some of the groups on their list are a little hard to fathom. I’m not sure I believe everything they say in the link I reference above.

I should clarify what I said above – JDL is not a mainstream Jewish organization, and is extremist and I don’t support what they do, but I don’t know that qualifies it as a hate group – as what exactly does it “hate”? Maybe the definition of hate group is not what I think it to be: a group that hates some other group of people of a certain ethnicity, religion, etc.

Seems any organization that is contrary to the SPLC’s political ideology is a hate group.

Why isn’t CAIR on their list? How about the Black Panthers? Farrakhan and The Nation of Islam?

They’re not because the SPLC is a political tool and thus a joke.

I don’t know. What do we call organizations that target specific groups?

I didn’t know that the American Legion had been designated as a hate group. I will say this, I have heard some mighty hateful crap come out of some of their mouths. Now…if the American Legion is handing out a pamphlet with some of that in it, then shame on them.

Back when I heard some of their crap, it wasn’t directed at immigrants. It also wasn’t directed at former enemies of the US, which I can understand.

GR, what is the JDL? I know I have heard of them but am foggy at the moment.

If you notice something about the SPLC, any group that is against illegal immigration is a ‘hate group’.

The JDL or Jewish Defense League – is a rather extremist organization that believes in fighting anti-semitism through use of force against those who are anti-semitic. I would not consider them a “hate group” if the definition is either hating certain groups of people based on ethnicity or race or religion, or promoting hatred of groups. They are an extremist group, and have done violent things, but unless you were to say they promote hatred of anti-semitism, I don’t see exactly how you could qualify them as a “hate group”. On the SPLC website – they classify hate groups by categories of what they hate – and i had to laugh when it said “General Hate” for the JDL! I guess as they couldn’t say hatred of anti-semitism, they stuck them in the General Hate category! I guess that means they hate everything, or hate things in gereral.

If you type in JDL or Jewish Defense League in google, you’ll turn up a zillion links on info about them.

I am not exactly defending them as an organization – I do believe they do rather extreme things, and their former leader Rabbi Meir Kahane who was their founder, was kind of an extremist nut – then again he was assassinated in NYC after some speech he gave calling for American Jews to emigrate to Israel to help the cause there. The assassin was connected with Al Queda by the way – as I remember it, and was Arabic. I forget the exact details, this is all from memory – and it was sometime in the 90’s the assassination occurred, I don’t know when. I believe Kahane was buried in Israel at his request.

Anyway, since Kahane’s time, the JDL hasn’t been as much in the forefront. If I remember right no clear successor to him emerged, and I think it may have even split into two groups or some such thing.

Well, I’m sure there’s a lot of info on it on the web, I just haven’t looked, but may do so if I get some time.

I personally haven’t heard much about the JDL in recent years, and kind of forgot about them until I blundered into the reference to them on SPLC’s site under General Hate groups! Most hate groups they have in a category – not too many are “General Hate”!

Actually, by the definition of having a leader who spouts hatred towards certain races or ethnic groups – if you follow that definition I would say Obama’s former church qualifies, or at least did as long as Reverend Wright was head minister of it. If you can suggest politicians who speak at a one day event at the same time as a “hate group” speaks at that event, are somewhat complicit in hatred, then I think it is fair to label Obama’s former church as a hate group during the time Wright was its active head minister. I’m sure there were plenty there that nodded their heads in agreement with his weekly sermons, so those people by connection would be members of a hate group. I just don’t think it can be had both ways. I somewhat doubt Obama’s former church was ever on the list of hate groups as defined by the SPLC. Maybe that is taking it to an extreme, but I think some of this business about the Tea Party is also taking things to extreme.

I do wonder though how the JDL can be classified as a hate group, but the Black Panthers, of the Nation of Islam and Louis Farrakhan are not, as Mando pointed out. If those two groups aren’t examples of hate groups, I don’t know what is. It comes down to, unless you are going to apply the term hate group equitably and fairly, I don’t have to trust your designation of what a hate group is.

Moon, “I didn’t know that the American Legion had been designated as a hate group”… I’ve told you that on several other occasions which you commented on in the past when someone throws the SPLC out there.

Ill see if I can dig it up but I’ve mentioned that at least 3 or 4 times…

I told you in the “Lone Wolf” thread – June 18,2009 at 23:03 – and you replied on June 19, 2009 at 1:28. – most recent example I could find…

“Estmates are that localities are forced to pay tens of billions
of dollars in health and education cost for noncitizens. They
are a large net financial burden.”
Hillary Clinton
Washington Post
(5-26-2006)

Is Hillary Cinton a “hate monger”?

“Advocates of a more liberal policy toward illegal immigrants
need to take seriously the discontent that the anti-immigration
movement has tapped into. Immigration has been a blessing to the
United States, but it has not been an unmixed blessing and the cost
of our immigration policies are borne more heavily by some parts
of our society than others …supporters of immigrant rights
need to deal with the legitimate gripes of their opponents …
the most basic is that immigrants cost local governments money.”
E.J. Dionne, Jr.
Washington Post -op/ed
(5-26-2006)

Hello, I do remember our conversation. I should have said before recently on this blog. Sorry, I will try to be more precise in the future.

GR, I think those groups you mentions should be included in the list of people with ugly objectives for sure. I would also sling Rev Wright on the pile. After what I heard the other day come out of Jamie Foxx’s mouth, he might have to go on the heap also.

Hillary hates the right wing conspiracy group. I don’t blame her.
——————————————————————–

So let me try to understand everyone…Are you saying no one should be classified as a hate group or that FAIR should not be classified as a hate group?

GR,
Where exactly does the SPLC state the American Legion is a “hate group”? I do not see that anywhere. What I do see is a detailed response to a report the American Legion published on illegal immigration and the errouneous “facts”.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/10/31/american-legion-attacks-report-and-splc-responds/

Is there a hate group list?

Somewhere else on SPLC’s website – which is a bit confusing to navigate, it does list them as a hate group. Try as I might though, I can’t seem to get back to where I saw that. It was somewhere around where I saw the JDL listed, but I blundered into that accidentally randomly clicking around. Now I can’t retrace the path that took me to where they listed American Legion as a hate group. If I find it I’ll post the link.

I think if you do a search of their site, you will find it.

I would just as soon try to navigate around a rat maze!

Actually, I take it back – it appears it was some comment by a contributor to the “comments” section of one page they had on the American Legion, where one of the commentors said it was a hate group. So I have yet to find where the SPLC says they are a hate group, however all I did was the Google search. You might ask whoever it was on here that originally made that statement, as it wasn’t me. I just followed up on it by trying to research it via google search, and it appears my research was a bit flawed.

MH – they do have a link that says “Hate Group Map” that shows hate groups by states. That is where I blundered into the JDL listed, under New York, although since have found them listed in a bunch of states, in some places I think where maybe not so many Jewish people even live. That puzzles me a bit, but it doesn’t matter what state they stick it in, or if they stick it in multiple states, as long as it is somewhere on their list in some state, and classified as a hate group – that means they call it a hate group wherever it is!

Actually, a direct link to their “Hate Group Map” (one of the more unusually named maps I’ve ever seen) is http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

MH – I agree – their site is a mess – frequently links take you around in circles – that is take you back to where you started from when they imply you are going deeper. I hate websites like that. Does that make me a member of the “Pooly Designed Website Hate Group”??

I perused the websites for SPLC and for FAIR this evening to try to get some clarity on the issue. SPLC seems to label any organization that seeks to control illegal immigration as a “hate group.” FAIR is clearly opposed to illegal immigration. FAIR also wants to limit legal immigration to some extent. Would any sovereign nation wanting to curb immigration at times in order to help its own citizens be categorized as a “hate group,” then? Aside from the association issues pointed out early in this thread, if you say that no one here is for illegal immigration, but that groups that are against illegal immigration or for some limits on legal immigration are “hate groups,” then what are we left with? Open borders?

Typo – obviously meant Poorly in my above post.

GR, I see the Nation of Islam and the black panthers on the Virginia map. That’s fair.

I don’t see United Daughters of the Confederacy listed or the American Legion (as a hate group)
American Legion is actually congressionally chartered. I didn’t realize that either. They are based out of Indiana and are not listed as a hate group under the state of Indiana or DC.

The only website any more of a maze is the PW Co govt website. It is horrible.

OK, good find MH – you are right, they do define Nation of Islam, as well as several black panther groups, as hate groups. That makes me feel better about their labeling things as hate groups. At least be an “equal oppportunity hate group labeler”!! Although, I still contend, that Obama’s former church at least used to qualify as a hate group. Maybe it doesn’t now, assuming whatever minister is in charge has abandoned that angry racist rhetoric that Reverend Wright used to spout.

I think PWC’s website and SPLC’s website must be designed by the same web site design company. Both need to be fired and replaced. PWC’s website is a disgrace as to how difficult it is to navigate the thing or find out any useful information you are searching for.

Then again I suppose PWC’s website might have been designed in-house, rather than using the services of a website design company, as I suspect SPLC did (most organizations just hire some company or person to design their website for them, unless they have an in-house software development group).

As to country’s wanting to limit immigration to specific quotas – there are good reasons at times to do so. There are those like Bill Gates, that want to raise the quotas for technical workers for example, as if we have some shortage of technical people here in the USA! That’s ridiculous, particularly in economic times like these.

So, there are some very valid reasons for some immigration quotas. I’m not saying all quotas are valid and correct where there are, but there are definitely some that shouldn’t be expanded, the one for technical workers is definitely at the top of that list. Bill Gates just knows he can bring these people in and pay them lower wages and they’ll be perfectly happy, compared to their American citizen counterparts.

Anyway, as Emma says, by that logic most countries are hate groups, as I would think many countries do have some kind of immigration quotas. We can on longer just open the floodgates and let everyone in.

GR, Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas is listed as an anti gay hate group. Also, JDL and Nation of Islam is all over the place as are the black seperatists. As for Rev Wright, I think if that kind of rhetoric was listed as a hate group, there would be lots of churches listed. Not that unusual, I hate to say.

I don’t think that it is being opposed to immigration as much as it is HOW one opposes it.

The original Boston Tea Party had numerous causes, not the least
of which was the huge East India Trading Company almost going
bankrupt and the English government forced to come to the resue
(sound familiar?) Discovering the one thing the Company had
in large amounts was tea, the harried and cash strapped Parliament
decided to have it shipped to the Colonies and sold at a deep
discount which would (1)recover a few pounds (2) please the
colonials with soom inexpensive quality tea. Must have seemed like
a good idea at the time. But that, as it turned out, would also destroy
many Boston businessmen and those who worked for them in the tea trade,
by undercutting their product. Something had to be done to save
their commercial viability and that was to dress up as Indians
and dump the new competitive product in Boston Harbor PDQ with a
“fighting for liberty” cover story. Pass the war paint!

I didn’t even know the part about them dressing up as Indians for the Boston Tea Party! Thanks for the history lesson.

Another good find there MH about that church in Kansas. OK, I’m obviously being proven wrong about some of the things I assumed about the SPLC’s labeling of hate groups. I am glad to see them list the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers – those two definitely qualify.

from ADL : http://www.adl.org/civil_rights/anti_immigrant/fair.asp

Immigration remains a deeply polarizing issue in American politics and public life. Serious policy questions remain about the best way to reform America’s immigration system but the debate has also been framed, at times, by vitriolic anti-immigrant – and particularly anti-Latino – rhetoric and propaganda. Purveyors of this extremist rhetoric use stereotypes and outright bigotry to target immigrants and hold them responsible for numerous societal ills.

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which previously has documented how extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis have exploited the immigration issue to advance their own agenda, has become increasingly concerned about the virulent anti-immigrant and anti-Latino rhetoric employed by a handful of groups and coalitions that have positioned themselves as legitimate, mainstream advocates against illegal immigration in America.

In 2008, these anti-immigrant advocates have attempted to reinvigorate the immigration debate by forming new coalitions. At a press conference announcing its formation, one coalition openly joined together local citizen groups located far from the Mexican/United States border with virulently anti-Latino border vigilante groups that send armed volunteers to patrol the border. Another coalition has run mainstream newspaper ads that exploit the American public’s concerns about the environment by blaming immigrants for traffic congestion, damage to the public infrastructure, and high fuel prices. These coalitions are attempting to broaden their base and legitimize their views through media outreach.

In addition, local citizen groups continue to hold rallies and events where speakers routinely blame undocumented immigrants and their children for a wide range of problems from “dumbing down” American schools to depleting community resources, to being the main cause of crime and disease in this country. The demonization of immigrants has led to an increased sense of fear in communities around the country and created a toxic environment in which hateful rhetoric targeting immigrants has become routine.

Unlike the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis, who make no attempt to hide their racism and bigotry, these anti-immigrant groups and coalitions often use more subtle language to demonize immigrants and foreigners. They are frequently quoted in the media, have been called to testify before Congress, and often hold meetings with lawmakers and other public figures. However, under the guise of warning people about the impact of illegal immigration, anti-immigrant advocates often invoke the same dehumanizing, racist stereotypes as hate groups. And increasingly, they do not make a distinction between illegal and legal immigrants.

A closer look at the public record reveals that some of these supposedly mainstream organizations have disturbing links to, or relationships with, extremists in the anti-immigration movement. Often identified in the media or their mission statements as “anti-illegal immigration advocacy groups,” they attempt to distort the debate over immigration by fomenting fear and spreading unfounded propaganda through the use of several key tactics:
Describing immigrants as “third world invaders,” who come to America to destroy our heritage, “colonize” the country and attack our “way of life.” This charge is used against Latinos, Asians and other people of color.

Using terminology that describes immigrants as part of “hordes” that “swarm” over the border. This dehumanizing language has become common.

Portraying immigrants as carriers of diseases like leprosy, tuberculosis, Chagas disease (a potentially fatal parasitic disease), dengue fever, polio, malaria.

Depicting immigrants as criminals, murderers, rapists, terrorists, and a danger to children and families.

Propagating conspiracy theories about an alleged secret “reconquista” plot by Mexican immigrants to create a “greater Mexico” by seizing seven states in the American Southwest that once belonged to Mexico.

Blaming immigrants for eroding American culture, institutions and quality of life and impacting our environment and natural resources.

This anti-immigrant propaganda and rhetoric, once the domain of hate groups, is now part of the lexicon used by anti-immigration advocacy organizations, politicians and media figures considered mainstream.

In this report, part of a series of reports on immigration and extremism, ADL exposes those individuals and groups who are playing a key a role in mainstreaming extremist rhetoric in the immigration debate in various aspects of American life.

To both broaden the demographic of its movement and cultivate a grassroots following, the Washington D.C.-based Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) has created front groups that work together, often in concert with border vigilante groups, to broadcast a xenophobic message. At the same time, they use these as a defense against charges of racism.

Thanks for finding that Elena. I also saw one of those aztlan groups listed under general hate.

I also did not see the UDC listed. Just because a group is mentioned doesn’t mean that it is listed as a hate group, from what I can gather.

one of my most favorite all time posts on Anti

via Poor Richard, March 3, 2008:

“…a large majority of them can neither read or write, do not
understand our language and have natural tendencies to live
crowded among their own race and to continue their customs brought
with them. Some of the philanthropists and educated fools are
worrying how to deal with this problem when the only sensible
way to deal with this problem is to pass an immigration law that
will keep them out of the country entirely, for we have no use
for them, and they are a menace to America and American institutions
… over a million have arrived in the past year and still
comes the miserable horde, and the politician sells not only
his own birthright but the peace and health of his countrymen
for a few ballots … the nature of this filth is too low and
vile to exploit in print … American for Americans …
The time has come when the American people must call a halt
to the ….. Italians.”
Baltimore News (Nov. 7, 1906)

I know it’s long M-H, thanks for reading it, some things you just cant condense, and this issue cannot be contained within a quick simple summary.

I have been visiting the blogosphere. Apparently Alanna has stirred up a hornet’s nest. You go girl.

Interesting that people think that the NCLR is the same organization as the defunct political group Raza Unidad Party. It just makes damn good press and helps stir the pot.

Indeed, I’ve come to the conclusion that not every group SPLC mentions on their site is labeled as a “hate group”. Unfortunately they do not make it easy to find out who it is they do label a hate group! If they had one central list of all hate groups in the USA, sorted by alphabetical order (or searchable by name or something) it wouldn’t have led to all this back and forth about whether or not a specific group was defined by them as a hate group or not. I was definitely erroneous in thinking they defined American Legion that way – just by the fact they were highlighted in a few articles on their website. The way you have to go about searching by state, and then the list is in some random non-alphabetical order, just makes the task that much more difficult. Why don’t they make it easy to confirm/deny that a group is a hate group, on their website? Even an idiot website programmer knows enough to do a database sort in alphabetical order, or make it sortable by column headers.

As you can tell, I don’t hold in very high esteem the programmer(s) that did their website for them.

Moon-howler :
GR, I see the Nation of Islam and the black panthers on the Virginia map. That’s fair.

I stand corrected. I guess their hypocrisy knows bounds. Looks like more of a “we have to do this” given their caveat:

“Although the Southern Poverty Law Center recognizes that much black racism in America is, at least in part, a response to centuries of white racism”

Because we all know whites are inherently racist…

Doesn’t change my mind that they’re a political tool. What percentage of their resources go to harass The Nation of Islam vs. FAIR?

Mando, I don’t see them as harassing anyone.

You know I am a little touchy about whites being inherently racist. I am the one who thinks it is the human condition for all races to be a little bit in favor of their own. It is how they handle that natural tendency that we have to watch out for.

Just an observation over the years….

(1) Crimes should not in any way be rewarded. That’s simple enough to understand, isn’t it? So send the illegals home. (2) Any geographical area is only environmentally designed to support a certain number of people before it begins to deteriorate. Also simple. (3) Having already outsourced so many of our jobs we have too many people for the remaining jobs as it is. A wise, compassionate country would train or retrain its people for the remaining jobs and match them up. (4) End all immigration except that which is done to save peoples’ lives. I’m not a race hater of any sort. I have relatives of every color and from many countries.

We need to quickly develop some common sense about where our country is headed or it’s going to crash and burn. As unemployment figures rise and incomes go down, taxes also go down, causing revenues to local, state and federal governments to also fall. Our states are beginning to go bankrupt. More and more people are going to become homeless, hungry and angry. Then what happens? Use your imaginations.