AntiBVBL

Here’s some examples of real bullying:
http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.com/2009/05/customs-and-border-patrol-destroys.html

Customs and Border Protection Destroys Birth Certificates of Mexican-American U.S.-born Teenage Boys

Here are descriptions of two previously unpublished accounts of U.S.-born Mexican-American teenagers who had their birth certificates ripped up by Customs and Border Patrol agents. I have information on other similar cases, but only time to write up the details of these two, along with summaries and links to two other recent cases published elsewhere.

In early 2007, when Mario tried to return through Nogales, Arizona the Customs and Border Patrol agent, the attorney said, “tore it up on the spot. They told him, ‘It’s not real. Go away, kid, this is fraud.’ There goes your Colorado birth certificate. Go away, have a nice day.” Mario was upset and insisted he was a U.S. citizen. “They told him that if he says he’s Mexican he can leave, but if he keeps saying he’s a citizen he’ll be detained at the Nogales border patrol station and arrested.” He signed and returned to Mexico.

Because of worries about identity theft he was not able to send for another copy of his birth certificate. In May 2007, Mario decided to take his chances by crossing without inspection and was apprehended by the Nogales Border Patrol. He made a sworn statement that he’s a U.S. citizen and is taken into detention for deportation proceedings, where he can make his case before a judge. Mario, the attorney said, “denied he was a Mexican alien, but they whipped this thing out,” according to the attorney, and said, “You said you were a Mexican. Here’s the proof. You were removed as a Mexican.”
…
Case 2.
An attorney who works for a federal defender’s office told me about Ricardo, 16, who was living in Phoenix and drove to Nogales so he could drink. (These events transpired roughly between 2002-2006.) On returning to the United States, Ricardo presented his Los Angeles County birth certificate and Arizona driver’s license. The attorney said “The border patrol agent kept trying to get him to admit he was Mexican and it was a fake certificate: ‘You’re a punk, you’re stupid, and I’m going to do you a favor,’ and the border patrol rips up Ricardo’s birth certificate.” The agent tells Ricardo that he saved him from a charge of presenting false documents and says that if Ricardo doesn’t sign a statement saying he’s Mexican, then he’s going to prison for a year. Ricardo signed.”

I asked the attorney why Ricardo signed the false statement, although the absence of an attorney and being a minor are already grounds for concern. He replied, “Nobody believes you, and they browbeat you, ‘Stop lying, you’re just making it worse.’” Ricardo went to court but didn’t say anything. I asked why he didn’t explain his situation to the immigration judge and the attorney, who had watched a video tape of the hearing told me, “A lot of these judges don’t listen to shit anybody says. This judge never even looked up from the paper.” (Incidentally, Ricardo didn’t miscalculate: Mark Lyttle told the judge he was U.S. citizen and was still deported.)
…
“If ever there was evidence of the fundamental flaws in our immigration system, it is the fact that a U.S. citizen was deported twice and denied entry into the United States on numerous occasions without any due process of law,” said Jennie Pasquarella, staff attorney for the ACLU/SC. “ICE officials repeatedly ignored his certified birth certificate, which they could easily have corroborated, and instead simply refused to believe him. It is inconceivable that this would have happened were he not Latino.”

“There’s something fundamentally wrong with the system if border guards can effectively deprive you of your citizenship by simply disregarding a valid birth certificate,” said Pasquarella. “ICE officials obviously used race and ethnicity as a basis for enforcing our nation’s immigration laws, rather than taking a few minutes to verify Mr. Olivares’ legal status.”

…

In a detailed article by Sandra Hernanez appearing in the Los Angeles Daily Journal on December 31, 2008 Jose Ledesma, who estimates he was deported about 15 times despite presenting a U.S. birth certificate, says,

“I think the only reason I got out is immigration saw the newspaper stuff and didn’t want to keep me in there after it was public,” he said.
“I think I might have gotten out a lot faster if I’d had a lawyer,” Ledesma said. “I know my rights, but in court you don’t really understand all the legal stuff or they just don’t believe you.”

This does seem to be a pattern: when the media focus attention on cases ICE responds but absent that attention even attorneys have a problem receiving due process protections for their clients.

Another interesting point Ledesma mentions is that during his hearing before an immigration judge, when Ledesma brings up his claim to U.S. citizenship, the judge “turned off the tape recorder and began talking to the government attorney and then turned it back on and told me I had 15 days to provide facts to show I was a citizen.”

So the immigration courts won’t let people in (see earlier postings tagged EOIR) and immigration judges are having secret exchanges with the government attorneys?!

Wow.

A copy-proof national ID card would have prevented this mess, but then the liberals are against it as if the government doesn’t already know everything about you if you are a legal citizen. It’s those who aren’t legal that we know little or nothing about.

Interesting thread MH. Yes, cyber bullying big problem. You & I have had direct conversations about it via e-mail. Won’t rehash it here, some people thought I was engaged in cyber bullying but you know me well enough now to know I wasn’t, and really was reverse situation sort of.

Cyber bullies are bad, no matter who they are, what side of issue they are on, etc. I’m sure these days in schools, cyber bullies abound there too. I remember bullying in schools – and can’t imagine now what it would be like receiving e-mails/instant messages, etc. from bullies at school, 24 hours a day. Leads to tradegies – think some school violence initiated via cyber bullying and spills out into physical stuff. All around bad stuff. People are also more brave hiding between anonymous user id’s.

Good thread, glad you put it up.

Cyber-bullying has crept down into elementary schools. As computers become more of a necessity in education, new problems arise. I know of a 3rd grader who sent another student countless unwanted emails with rude messages. The emails were a side-function of a school-based, highly successful reading computer program.

The biggest problem I have seen, at least in elementary school, is students sharing their passwords. Even with countless internet safety lessons via the computer lab teacher and school counselor, there is still a problem with (mostly girls) sharing passwords as a sign of friendship. There are lots of cases of girls then using their buddy’s password to send nasty emails to others (kids and teachers). It is a newer version of making a three way call to your friend to gossip, and not letting her know there is someone on the other line.

Imagine the issues it causes as kids become mired in this kind of drama…at the elementary school level! The scary part is that most of the actual bullying takes place at home, when students are accessing the afore-mentioned programs to practice skills, or just socially emailing/IMing/chatting with friends. It always makes it way into the schools, however, and is highly disruptive.

I definitely think it will translate to adult cyber-bullying. Just like many other maladaptive behavior patterns, it does not simply end, especially when one has not been corrected. This one has a great potential to carry on into adulthood, as most cyber-bullying is harder to catch. Children and adults alike feel safer to say and do things on a computer that they wouldn’t do in “the real world” or face-to-face.

Hi Diversity Gal. The three way call you mentined is over the top. Bullying can have long lasting effects on one’s self-esteem. Let’s face we all know kids can be cruel, but it doesn’t stop there.

I’ve often been curious about some of the “local blog bullies”, if they were bullies on the playground/in the neighborhood when they were kids. My guess is they were. I know one person that would act like they were your best friend to your face, and attack everyone on the newspaper blog. I think these cyber bullies live in their little cyer world, and are absolutely cluless to the reality of the “real world”.

Amdmin,
Can we post bullying email and blog posts as examples? For all to see with their own two eyes?

I see no problem with that if you xxxxx out the names, Chris. Perhaps we should decide on a case by case basis. On the other hand, if it is a moniker, what difference does it make? I can think of at least one person who fits the description you just described.

Welcome back Diversity Gal. Good to see you and I appreciate your input here. I agree, it does continue into adulthood.

Gainesville, no you are not a cyber bully. I actually believe you were being bullied by that person we discussed and who is no longer welcome here.

SA, interesting you should say that about a national identity card. I always felt it was conservatives who opposed the national id care. I certainly would not mind one. Sort of like carrying around your birth certificate like a credit card. You are right. The govt. knows all anyway.

I think fingerprints would be better than a national ID card. It’s harder to cut off a finger than it is to steal a card.

Then again, perhaps the finger print will be on the card anyway.

@Mackie

You know, an optional national ID Card exists (for those who want it… that should satisfy the folks who are against the idea in principle.) It’s called a U.S. Passport Card.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html

This new travel document can be used to enter the United States from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda at land border crossings or sea ports-of-entry. So, why not publicize its availability?

Opinion, the passport processor I talked to actually discouraged me from getting one. I am not sure why. This was about a year ago. Maybe they were swamped at the time. Who knows.

Addendum: It must have been last summer since they didn’t have them until them. I see that you can’t use them for air travel. That might be the reason I was given. I just don’t remember.

At any rate, thanks for that information, Opinion. Those cards must be more for people who live in say Arizona, or Michigan or other border states. If you had to drive back and forth a lot, it would definitely be easier than carrying a full size passport.

@Chris
I, for one, would like to know what you all are referring to. So please….post away.

It will be interesting to see what cyber bullying looks like.

@Moon-howler
Once a upon time Virginia did have birth certificates in a credit card form. I have one and carry with it my driver’s license. I think they should bring it back, but with some enhancements to keep it from being easily duplicated.

Oh, I would not reveal their identy. I’ve had one or two monikers of mine ratted out on this board, by those that aren’t regulars. Now, I would not turn around do this to them. I’m above that type of behavior.

Chris, you don’t have to rat them out. Just examples would acceptable, in their cyber moniker form.

On the other hand, he (or she) who lives by the sword tends to die by the sword.

People have no shame when posting anonymously on the internet. We have to accept that as part of the modern world. Often, people have had no shame where they have no accountability.

I think the disease that afflicted our county a few years back was extraordinary because the “theme” of the bullying was ferocious and very much focused on race and ethnicity. There were targets for hatred, very clear targets, and the rest of us felt vulnerable if we were accused of being somehow sympathetic or connected to those targets.

What happened in PWC had the feeling of a McCarthy witch hunt with guilt by association. People were afraid to speak their mind. Those who did received threatening emails and/or where slandered on a blog.

To make matters worse, the bullying here coincided with some national movements and particular radio and newscasters hysteric. Then, you add to that partisan political motivations, and all the venom that is already prevalent there.

Now days, I feel it has died down a great deal. The radio shock jocks and newscasters, as well as the partisan political wind has gone out of the sails. So instead of feeling like PWC is ground zero of a hate and bullying epidemic, it just seems like we have some not-so-friendly neighbors. Greg Letiecq has a small group of people who read his blog, and an even smaller group of people who take his orders. That much, we can handle. It’s not great advertising for our county, but we can live with it.

What we had before was truly frightening. It seemed like the beginning of a dark chapter in American history. Thank God they were not able to sustain it.

Agreed that cyber bullying in kids will translate to even worse cyber bullying as adults. Also for some kids, cyber bullying will lead to in person physical or psychological bullying. I had lots of experience in mh childhood years being bullied, so know loads about it. That was before the time of technology for cyber bullying. I was always happy to get home from school. Cannot imagine now not being able to escape it – basically 24×7 bullying! YUCH! Big problem these days – this is an example of technology making things worse instead of better!

WT – yes anonymous posting on internet encourages one to say things to other people they would never say in person. Easy to hide behind mask of anonymity. Have to give credit to admins of blog for sticking their necks out there in public. Not an easy thing to do, not anything I would want to do.

WT – agreed about bullying here in PWC in relation to resolution. But it went both ways, and there was plenty of it on both sides. Very bad for people on both sides.

It is sad that we too often limit ourselves to the term “bullying” when bullying only represent part of a continuum of aggression. It is only when we consider the entire continuum that we can identify an individual’s (any individuals regardless of age, gender, culture, education or hierarchy) emerging aggression, which research has shown as the only effective means to identify a shooter, suicide or otherwise. If you would like to know more, let me encourage you to read a new free white paper, which outline the problems in our schools and a possible real solution. We can and must prevent these events, not merely react to them. For a comprehensive look at the problem and its solution, http://www.aggressionmanagement.com/White_Paper_K-12/

I can see your point, GS. I sometimes feel sorry for Mr. Letiecq, Mr. Stewart, and Mr. Duecaster who are so often called to account for their words and deeds. An elected official knows what they are getting into. Letiecq and Duecaster have been raked across the coals as if they were politicians, but they are private citizens. Underneath all the tough talk, threats, bluster, ect. I’m sure they have feeling just like anyone else. I try to criticize the policy and not the people. I apologize if I haven’t always lived up to it.

GR, the fact that you and I are still afraid to “stick our neck out” with our real names is a lingering symptom of the bullying disease.

WT, GL and Duecaster were authors of a policy. They were centers of a strong political and lobbying group that made their way into county government and are still strongly supported no matter what they say, no matter how many “brown people” they and their friends brag about chasing off.

In 2007, compared to the population of PWC (around 400,000 people), about 100 people literally took over our county government. In the face of more than 1000 people protesting outside McCoart, a few hostile people were able to convince our BOCS to do the wrong thing. Instead of addressing neighborhood issues, the BOCS voted to attack people through an unfair policy. Yes, they were attacking people because that original policy encouraged racial profiling, threats and hatred. If you ask me, this is pretty frightening.

I am someone who would like to see the HSM/BVBL crowd’s contentious comments posted because I want the world to know who it is that can take over government if we allow it.

I think it’s important for the world to know exactly what it was that incensed some of us, caused some brave women to start Anti and threw some of us into a tailspin (that last category would include me with my less than subtle, virtual outbursts that were not intended to address anything other than the racism I perceive this group was and still is promoting).

I also think it’s important for the world to know who was controlling our BOCS in 2007 and who is still bragging about it–including those on the BOCS.

WT, I can see why you and others never stuck your necks out. You’re probably smarter than I am. But I have a fair amount of internet presence that goes outside of the immigration debate and has for years. Because of that, I’ve never believed I should hide.

That said, I have always tried to explain my reasoning behind what I have said, to no avail. I once again will apologize to any well meaning people who got caught up in my net of anger.

Why was I so angry? Because I saw people getting discriminated against, bullied and threatened. Because I am not someone who can stand by while innocent people get beat up. I jump in (with or without thought). Unfortunately, sometimes when you jump into that kind of fight, you smack a few bystanders while you get beat up yourself.

For that, I’m sorry.

I’m really not into smacking bystanders.

And I’m really not into pain.

And I’m a little too impulsive sometimes for my own good.

Witness Too – exactly right – no way would i use my real identity on here or anyplace else in this debate. Give credit to those few who do. I had enough problems even using a pseudonym on here.

And, I’ll say it one more time, no excuse for some of the ugly name calling, twisting people’s names around to make fun of them (even if done by the other side), etc. No one needs to stoop to the level of their opponents! Bad stuff was said on both sides, no doubt about it. And no excuse for innocent people being caught in crossfire. Sorry, don’t buy it, and no amount of talk will convince me of that. First time I posted on here was attacked with very mild post.

Meant to “was attacked with very mild post I made.” Point was, one poster and then others followed said poster and jumped to conclusions, right away the knives came out, saying must be HSM member, etc. Silly stuff, uncalled for. I only use myself as an example of poor behavior on both sides of issue. I probably made a few heated posts myself but only in response to attacks. I really said enough on this issue, but again I fail to see how it is OK for innocent people to be caught in crossfire.

Well, GR, I can’t make you accept an apology or make you understand that putting forth reasons isn’t the same as making excuses.

My understanding was that you had tremendous neighborhood problems that should have been addressed a long time ago. When you got cranky, some of us just assumed you were one of the “dark screened ones.”

When you’re reading a blog, all you see is what’s being written. You don’t see the facial expressions or hear the tone. You don’t know the underlying issues outside the blog. You can only see those in real life. Duecaster and company went beyond blogging…way beyond.

I’m sure they have a myriad of reasons for acting like they do, reasons we don’t know. But those reasons do not justify their actions in the real world.

Hurting someone’s feelings isn’t the same thing as threatening or trying to psychologically damage someone. And that’s what BVBL attempts to do. I would say they go beyond bullying.

You said, “Also for some kids, cyber bullying will lead to in person physical or psychological bullying.” This has happened again and again with the BVBL/HSM crowd.

GR, you can resent and hate me all you want, but I wasn’t the one up there in an HSM meeting screaming my head off about invasions and foreigners and lawlessness and trying to push through an expensive policy that has ruined our county’s reputation.

So all I can say is, sorry to have hurt your feelings. It wasn’t intentional.

No, there was no good reason to assume I was one of the “dark side ones”. My first post was not ‘cranky’ – I became ‘cranky’ when you and others brought out the knives and pitchforks. The truth is there in the archives. You were the first rseponse to me – “go back to your scumhole”! Nice! I never used any bad language or anything in my very first post on here, but that’s the response I got. I don’t buy it, don’t buy it at all. Let’s just agree to disagree. I could say more but I’ll hold my tongue – but this idea of “bvbl did it, so OK if we did it” doesn’t cut it with me. I would say the bullying on here at times was just as bad as bvbl. you also said I was a nazi. So there. Equivalent of calling other ethnicities foul words. You did not know I was Jewish at the time, but then others proceeded to lecture me that I did not understand the holocaust! Hilarious!

Don’t use my words to say what happened on bvbl! How dare you! Saying kids posting leads to violence – that comment of mine had ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANTIBVBL OR BVBL. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH! Baloney!

Wow, I make a single self contained post completely unrelated to immigration, antibvbl, or bvbl and you link it anyway. That takes the cake.

The fact that you were completely wrong about me and at the time had your own conclusions that I was a nazi, a bvbl member, etc. – shows that just maybe you might be wrong about a few other things too.

Having been whacked with a 2X4 in shop class by a bully in school, I can’t say I totally “get” cyber-bullying. I would have given darn near anything to get “virtually bullied”.

Here are some prime examples of violent intonations, bullying and his supposed love of our area from our friend Mr. Duecaster (AKA Advocator). The “fat broads” are Alanna, Elena and me.

1. Advocator said on 15 May 2008 at 11:50 am:
Something more than voting may be needed at this point.

1. Advocator said on 16 May 2008 at 10:18 am:
Buy guns and ammo during the hiatus Mando. They scare the $hit out of liberal politicians, fat broads, and illegal invaders.

1. Advocator said on 14 Apr 2008 at 9:15 pm:
Well, Trufe, if indeed we’re headed for a cliff, I’d suggest the Illegal Invaders follow a simple economic principle: Last in, First out.

An’ thass right, Trufe, I am bitching about ESOL classes. Those anchor babies be costing me money.

2. Advocator said on 14 Apr 2008 at 9:18 pm:
By the way, Trufe. I’d be willing to sacrifice NYC, San Fran, LA, a large part of DC.,Arlington, and Manassas Park.

• Advocator said on 1 Jul 2008 at 10:09 am: Battlecat: You say, “they [Da Fat Broads] claim that illegals are simply no longer reporting that they are the victims of crime, and that explains the drop.”
Even following that scenario, the legal residents of the County come out as winners, as our tax dollars are no longer being used to subsidize the good order and discipline of a foreign invading force.

1. Advocator said on 1 May 2008 at 7:16 am:
I saw two pickup trucks with mattresses in my neighborhood last night. They were UNloading them.
Perception is everything. Regardless of what got passed or unpassed Tuesday night, the perception among the Illegal Community is that PWC is back to business as usual.
It’s not time yet to storm the castle, but sharpen up your pitchforks and clean off the shovels.

1. Advocator said on 31 Jan 2008 at 1:48 pm:
My scientific background tells me that before we accept any conclusion regarding this observation we should investigate whether or not illegal aliens have a preferred breeding season that would account for the variation.
1. Advocator said on 21 May 2008 at 8:38 am:
The time for talking, writing, and pleading with our elected leaders to do the right thing on this issue is rapidly coming to an end.

# Advocator said on 1 May 2008 at 10:25 am:
Litterally “doing battle” is what we should all be prepared for, Mando.

Posted by ( Advocator ) on June 02, 2008 at 4:40 pm
We need to encourage more of the illegal invaders to leave our community so that we have the money to fund worthy programs like this. ESOL classes and emergency room anchor babies are sucking the lifeblood out of our County.

We should gather the illegal aliens out of the jails in the country and have them build the fence prior to deporting them.
Advocator Posted April 2, 2008 3:54 PM
Advocator recommending slave labor to build the fence.
4. The best we could do for the citizens of Mexico and for our own country would be to distribute hundreds of thousands of M-16 and AK-47 assault rifles to the campesinos so they could get rid of their corrupt leaders themselves. We should issue an assault rifle to every illegal alien we deport back to those cesspools of corruption.
Posted by: Advocator on November 21, 2007 11:04 AM
Back to Home Page
November 20, 2007

From Marie

http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/08/03/blog-rules/#comments

August 4th, 2008 at 08:14 | #45
Reply | Quote

kgotthardt

Steve Thomas as is the one at HSM who did the checking up on who I am after I sent an e-mail to the president of HSM about an observation I made at the Prince William Co fair last year which had the appearance of being racist and sexist. I guess he thought pointing out that I was a City employee would somehow intimidate me and that I would be worried City Council would be displeased with my stand on the immigration issue.

This is what he wrote in one of the paragraphs of his e-mail. “As is my duty and function within HSM, I have done some checking as to who you are, and what you do for a living. As someone who works in Social Services I can appreciate the liberal point-of-view that you have, when approaching the illegal alien issue. As someone who is a City employee, and not an elected official, I commend your bravery in taking a stand on this issue, albeit, in my opinion, on the wrong side.

I thought he was pretty cheeky to do checking into my background. Wonder how many others have had their backgrounds checked?

August 4th, 2008 at 12:57 | #67
Reply | Quote

MH-
Veiled threats, indeed! I too was threatented with a law suit. This threat was made because someone ASSUMED a poster was me. They said that poster gave their PERSONAL information. This idividual was upset because there was a comment posted saying she had a daughter. I have to laugh because this “woman” has drug her kid to several public meetings, and has even been photographed by the press with her daughter at BOS meetings. This is bullying behavior plain and simply. I still laugh about the insanity of the veil threat. This threat came from a “mere member” of HSM. Get a life people!

August 4th, 2008 at 14:00 | #72
Reply | Quote

To Moon-howler, 4. August 2008, 8:30

I never mentioned in my correspondence to the HSM president where I worked or what I did for a living. I did sign my name to my e-mail because It is not my style to send letters or e-mails anonymously. I thought it interesting that Greg L never responded. Dan Arnold responded and then Steve Thomas. I did think he was trying to intimidate me but I am not easily intimidated and I let him know as much. What the H difference did it make where I worked or for whom? I still have a right to express my opinion to an organization that is not funded by, nor is a board or commission of the City where I worked.

Sorry…last two examples were from Marie and Chris.

Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:44 AM
To: PWC Police Department
Subject: Case #08-039547

Dear PWCPD:

Yesterday, Officer Sundby visited me to discuss a complaint about a threatening email I received from Greg Letiecq of Help Save Manassas. As I explained to the officer, this was not the first time Mr. Letiecq has emailed me (the first time was sometime last year with a threat to sue me over my blog posting which contains links to supporting evidence).

Apparently, since then, Greg Letiecq has decided to rant about me on his blog, BVBL.net which I have been banned from because I hold differing opinions. Besides labeling me as a Socialist (which actually amuses me because of my affiliations with fair democracy groups), he apparently has posted something about my being fired from Prince William County Public schools. This, of course, is not true. As I explained to Officer Sundby, I work contract from home, and since they do not have the online program they were offering before, I am not currently contracted with them. I am contracted with a college that I have worked for online for a little over six years.

I just wanted to let you know because, since my visit from Officer Sundby yesterday, this has escalated into a personal attack against me and at least one other teacher whom he names in his blog.

Finally, I want to thank Officer Sundby for taking the time to explain the processes of the police department regarding the immigration resolution. He cleared a few things up for me, and while I am still opposed to the resolution for a variety of reasons (which no one on the BOCS seems to want to hear from ANY Of us), I understand it’s not the PD’s fault. I hold your Chief in high regard for his handling of this no-win situation.

Best Wishes,

Katherine Mercurio Gotthardt

This morning Chris wondered if cyberbully adults were bullies as kids. My impression is the opposite, i.e. that they were the victims of bullies as kids because they are social misfits. The few cyberbullies whose identities I know are either weird wackos and/or completely lacking in the social skills necessary to make positive connections with people. Spewing forth on the internet allows them to believe they are the alpha dogs that they can’t be in person.

Care for some more BVBL?

TedKennedysSwimInstructor said on 28 Apr 2009 at 4:37 pm: Flag comment

All we need next is for RINO Martian Nohe to become a Democrat so that he and his Anti-mistress Votedowngardt can openly lobby Corey Stewart to offer county tax subsidies for solar powered Bull-Dyke carbon-neutral vibrators.

chucky said on 24 Apr 2009 at 3:48 pm: Flag comment
Ted that is hilarious, I’m sure they stocked up on batteries for the even or just had KG along for the ride to turn the hand-crank when the sky got overcast. That was pretty funny, now I’ll have a very hard time sleeping since I have that disgusting picture in my head now.
picturing any of those women in a pseudo-sexual way makes my stomach extremely ill….

TedKennedysSwimInstructor said on 23 Apr 2009 at 11:42 am: Flag comment

The Potomac News is reporting the perpetual menstrual cramp bitches over at the anti site got out their solar powered vibrators yesterday to demonstrate carbon-neutral orgasms – the cold rainy day=2 0stopped the flow.

Moonhowler, our “friend” is a perfect example. No way could that nutjob have been a bully as a kid.

Firedancer, you could be right. Like I said, there could be a myriad of reasons bullies are bullies. However, when they step up that behavior, encourage violence and act out their “issues,” it really doesn’t matter what the reasons are unless they are going to go into treatment of some kind and stop bullying.

People say all kinds of crap on the internet. But most healthy people don’t go out and act on it.

I would guess said nutjobs were beaten up a lot as kids, hence feel ultrapowerful at the keyboard. Being mentally unstable doesn’t help.

Slowpoke – but my point was what if those very same bullies that whacked you in shop also cyber bullied you too? Let’s put it this way, I had a physical defect when I was young that was corrected when I was 13 with plastic surgery. I was bullied physically on a daily basis all through school even after surgery until I graduated high school. Not until college did I escape that world. BUT, at least at 3 PM or whatever, when the bell rang, I knew freedom from the bullies awaited me! I can’t imagine what my life would have been like, as bad as it was, IF I was cyber bullied after school hours 24×7! That is my take on cyber bullying – for myself I’m glad the internet and instant messaging, (and cell phones) weren’t all around when I grew up. My bullying problems were contained to 8 AM – 2 PM or 9 AM – 3:30 PM depending what grade I was in. At least I always knew at worst case i had 6 1/2 hours of torture awaiting me. It occurred on a daily basis, throughout school, starting maybe from 3rd grade on up. Before that, kids were too young I guess to do it. Or I blocked it out, but don’t believe that is case – my memories of it all are as sharp as if it happened yesterday. Anyway, actually going to back away from this topic as not too interested in dredging up the past. But it is good that MH put it up, and some interesting discussion here.

One more note on my quotes from the cyber bullies:

These are the people who authored the resolution.

That’s right, folks.

These are the people who ran (and still try to run) our county.

Totally disagree with your statements Firedancer. If so, then I would be a cyber bully. well, some of you probably think I am. I guess I don’t care, actually what you all think of me. There are some cyber bullies on here but those people have blinders on.

GR, I know you hate my guts, but thank you for posting that and I am sincerely so sorry you went through that.

I don’t think enough people know what bullying can do to a kid….or an adult. I can tell you first-hand as well what can happen.

“I can tell you first-hand as well what can happen.” Incidentally, one of the things is that it can make you morally outraged which might not always be appropriately expressed.

Gainesville, I know you as an avid amateur astronomer, not a cyberbully!

Certainly not ALL victims of bullies become cyberbullies, or mass murderers like the Virginia Tech guy, but there are many examples of victims lashing out, especially when combined with mental instability.

Pinko, I can’t believe how much misogyny is in those posts you quoted. In my experience, only the smallest and most cowardly men so deeply hate women. Other forms of prejudice are based on ignorance and, sort of primal fears of those who are different. As much as I dislike the idea of racial prejudice as a political force, I can understand where it comes from. They are just a host of negative stereotypes.

Misogyny is a different matter. It comes from insecurity, I believe. A man who is unable to relate to women, and have women appreciate him, becomes a hater of women. I guess I am not surprised to find that some of the same people who were so insanely angry about the demographic shifts in our county are also misogynists. That just makes me feel really sorry for them. There is no political party for misogynists, and there is no support group, other than Greg’s blog I suppose.

Pinko, I know that both Greg and Mr. Duecaster are morally challenged and even frightening individuals. But I have felt sorry for them at times, when there is this feeling of ganging up on one person.

I feel the same way of course when you and other members of the “bravery in the face of organized hatred” club are attacked. I feel that is unjust as well. But I also admire you because you have not backed down, and I know that you have kept on going through what you’ve had to go through because you love this county and will not give in to the same phobias the rest of us have of standing up to bullies.

So my bottom line is: when I see the ganging up on Letiecq and Duecaster, I feel a little sorry for them. When I see the ganging up on you, Alanna, and Elena, I admire you all the more.

It’s two different reactions, but I have to agree with GR, there is something very unpleasant in both regards. I really regret that our county has devolved in to child’s taunts and bullying.

OK Firedancer, fair enough! As long as you didn’t mean ALL, which I may have read into your post, sounds good to me!

Actually you have a good point Firedancer – I can see how someone could become very angry at the world being bullied constantly. As I was very shy, that was not my reaction, but just made me more uneasy around people and took a lot of “work” on my part in college and beyond to get to where I was at ease in social situations, and comfortable speaking in public and at my job. My job forced me to adapt quickly upon graduation from college, as needed to make technical presentations to coworkers and eventually gov’t customers. Was not without its bumps and challenges, and took a huge effort on my part to overcome all that. I was always fearful people would form negative impression of me right off the bat when they saw me, even though no one would ever know i had physical deformity, but my self image was still not good for awhile. Have overcome all of that, but could write a book on that personal struggle. I could see how someone else in same situation as I could have gone other way and become a very hateful, mean person. The VA Tech thing, I could very very slightly identify with the shooter, only the point of he apparently was teased for his speech pattern and other behavior. I was an awkward shy person as a kid and had this deformity, so it compounded my problem. I was still awkward and shy in college too really, but managed to make many friends there which helped tremendously – first real environment I was in for long time where no one knew of my deformity – save for scout camp up in NH where I got job as electronics counsellor at age 15 and 16, and was well liked there but everyone always asked me why I was so shy. Still people up there very friendly, first real experience in world outside of home/relatives/few close friends where I was socially accepted and people were overtly friendly to me.

Anyway, i will agree with your point that indeed, in some cases bullying will have the effect of turning people towards very negative feelings. For me, it was more a mistrust of people for a long time and uneasiness in social settings. I suppose a lot of psychological analysis could be done on cases like these, i could personally write a book on my own experiences and struggles. It would not be fun writing such book, nor would it be pleasant for the reader, plus I’m an engineer, not a writer.

OK Pinko, fair enough. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about past events on here and move on, which is what I’d prefer to do actually. Tired of dredging up the past actually.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. I have been gone for most of the day.

Firedancer and I have spent some time discussing someone we feel is a cyber-bully. That person is not on this blog. I am sure she doesn’t think that everyone who was ever bullied turned into Charlie Manson. Our ‘friend, who I wouldn’t actually know if he walked up on my porch, bullies online. He bullies with his presence also.

I expect most of us have been bullied at one time or another. Other people were scapegoats. I think that scapegoats suffer from more extreme bullying.

I can remember being bullied by a girl name Ann who had had polio and was on crutches. If you didn’t do what she wanted you to do, she would hit you with her crutches and tell you that she was going to tattle that you were mean to her because she was crippled. Most of us learned to stay as far away from Ann as possible. She was a neighbor though and in our classes at school. Total avoidance wasn’t possible. The more we ran from her the more she tattled. Her mother called my mother many times about how badly I treated ‘poor Ann.’ There was no explaining to her mother what she was doing to us.

Gainesville has described a more extreme form of bullying. He talked about dreading school, but knowing the end was in sight at 3 pm. Those kinds of scars you keep for life. The Ann kind, you get over.

Slowpoke talked of getting hit with a 2 x 4 and wishing he could get cyber bullied instead. He is telling us that ‘pain hurts.’

I might have missed a few personal accounts.

What strikes me the most though is that people have repeatedly felt they were bullied here also. I don’t mean the black velvets who would say that to discredit us. I mean some of our regulars. Perhaps the self reflection is the most difficult part of this discussion. Someone brought up that we can’t see facial expressions, and that all we have to deal with is typed words. Do we come across as bullies and not realize it?

I know many people here felt they were bullied on bvbl. That’s water under the bridge now. I think the people who really have been bullied are Chuck Colgan, Marty Nohe, and Chief Deane–people like that. People who have been called illegal alien apologists or traitors just for doing their jobs. But that is simply my opinion. Also, those were strong individuals who stayed the course and didn’t let that criticism sway them. For that, I respect all three of those men.

Wow. I said I wanted examples. I didn’t know it would turn into all this!

And I don’t “hate your guts” but I just think you still have blinders on and don’t really appreciate certain things. A bit of an assumption by the way about the “hate your guts” thing as I never said that. Maybe it was somehow implied in my posts, but then again I could have made the same statement about your feelings toward me, in your posts in response to my very first post and other posts on here. Not a good idea to assume what someone thinks, as I know i never said “I hate your guts”.

At this point let’s just move on and agree to disagree. But thanks for you words saying you appreciated my post about my childhood bullying experience. i appreciate that – and decided to tell a small sliver of the story here as it fit in with the childhood bullying stuff and I speak out of painful personal experience. There are times even to this day when the scars of those times will reassert themselves at the strangest times, mostly when I’m in crowds of people – such as shopping malls, I can get a very uneasy feeling and almost need to flee. Very hard to explain or put into words. My sympathies lie with anyone who has been bullied on a regular basis as a kid – other kids can be extremely mean – meaner than adults in some ways! In my case bullying was often physical and aimed at my deformity – after plastic surgery kids had no idea what it felt like to be hit in that area – worse than a punch to the gut or groin – I would have much preferred that! Plastic surgery was right in June after 7th grade, so in early September still very sensitive in that area where said deformity was. Kids did not know that of course, just thought it was still great fun to attack me there, even though deformity gone and anyone seeing me on street would never know I had it. Won’t say what it was, just too personal to say here to the “world” as it were.

Anyway, appreciate your sympathizing with my childhood issues Pinko. Very decent of you to say that, given our past differences.

Gainesville, I truly admire your post above. I admire that you are able to step back and analyze your situation, recognize your challenges and successes, and even lay it all out there. Obviously you’re a “together” person, resilient and self-aware. You said you were able to make friends in college, and I do believe that having meaningful social contacts is a key to psychological wellness. One can’t be an angry, bitter, vitriolic venom spewer and a loving person at the same time.

It must be very scary to live with a mentally ill person, though, especially for the parents who have tried to do everything right.

MH – a thread like this can bring out very raw feelings, as it obviously has. But it still is a good thing you put it up, I think. On balance a lot of interesting things here, some I agree with, some I disagree with. Things did heat up quite a bit though!

GR,I think if we all shared experiences like this a little more, we would see the more human side of each other. That’s what is missing in blogs, and that’s why there are so many communication problems. Words are so slippery, even when they have been carefully chosen.

Anyway, I’m not going to ask for a group hug or anything, and I wouldn’t suggest an online therapy session, but suffice to say, a lot of us know what it means to be beat up physically and emotionally.

Thanks for being brave about it and saying it.

Firedancer – I could not have dialogued in this way 20 years ago. Took a lot of self analysis, professional help, etc. to get me to this point. I have come along way since my very shy childhood, which was made worse by the constant bullying, etc. Yes, I recognize I was lucky, the outcome could have been much worse. In some ways it helps to tell this story to people, I have found that out to be true in the past too. Not an easy story to tell, and I just skimmed the surface of it without going into detail. No one, not even my parents, knew of the daily occurences at school. i led them to believe it was 2 or 3 times a month. They wanted me to report every incident to the principal – if so they would have needed to just set up a chair and desk for me in his office as I’d have been there every day! Looking back on it, not sure how I was able to bottle that up inside and not tell anyone the severity of it. Somehow I pulled it off, but not sure how. Some things I’ll never figure out. Some things I sort of have rationalized as to how they came about. Whatever, I suppose in some ways I led an interesting life in my past as a child, but not one I’d recommend to anyone. Gives me an interesting story to tell, so that’s something I guess.

I’m really trying to think on both sides of this great divide. I think that many people who advocated for the Resolution were falling prey to racial stereotypes and scapegoating courtesy of Greg and to some degree Corey Stewart and John Stirrup. That’s bad. It lead to a really bad policy and it has hurt our county in ways that few predicted.

But, it is also a stereotype to assume that every member of Help Save Manassas was blinded by those stereotypes. It seems that when GR posted some things that sounded a bit like an HSM person, some people assumed they were like the “stereotype” of an HSM person. Possible?

–It seems that when GR posted some things that sounded a bit like an HSM person, some people assumed they were like the “stereotype” of an HSM person. Possible?–

Yup.

It makes me mad that GL could even create and encourage such a stereotype.

True enough, writing about personal expeiences allows others to see the human side of a person, Pinko. This medium is bad in a way as it can be impersonal and lead to misunderstandings. Problematic when all it is are a bunch of words. English being my worst subject, I may not be the best at conveying things when I get a little bit on the defensive side. Writing slight bits of my backstory as a child is a little theraputical for me in some ways, in a strange sort of way.

But will agree with you, helps for posters to present a more human side of themselves from time to time. Otherwise a person on here is just a faceless entity behind a pseudonym, and lots of words make it sometimes hard to discern who is behind them. Particularly when (and not trying to sound sexist) – i have a little easier time figuring out a poster if I know if they are male or female. Don’t know why that is, shouldn’t matter – but have a harder time if I don’t know person is male of female. May be a bit sexist, and apologize if so – but just maybe some quirky way my brain works. As you can figure out – have spent long periods of time pondering how the human brain works, mine in particular. I am by no means a perfect person and have a set of quirky behaviors but it is just who I am. Obviously spent a long time trying to figure out motivations of my childhood enemies. When you are shy and in situation I was in, gives you lots of time to think and ponder about “how the world works” as it were. Hard to really explain, but guess I had a lot of time as a kid to reflect on my lot in life at that time.

We all carry pain inside, and telling our stories helps break down barriers and build community. But someone has to be brave to take the first step to share. Thanks for being brave tonight, GR! Buenas noches.

Witness Too – I’d rather not rehash this too much more, but initially just said I thought watered down version of resolution was good thing. I came into this debate late in the game, maybe a week or two after resolution was watered down. Was not part of debate while initial resolution was in force, or leading up to its action. Puzzled me when the attacks came for me just saying I liked the watered down version of the resolution. Yes, I know – still allegedly costed a lot of money, but no one has ever been able to quantify what that amount of money was. Let’s not revisit that – I don’t want to reopen that debate either!

Anyway, at this point I think i’ve said enough on re: initial reaction to my presence on this blog about a year ago now. Let’s leave that discussion behind – as in “past is past” and let’s all move on. I made my point, and we can all agree to disagree so to speak. My temper may have been raised the other day by WHWN unwittingly when he said I should talk to Greg and Corey. That made me “fly off the handle’ so to speak and perhaps I hadn’t totally come back down today, and maybe just maybe revisiting my childhood past a bit slightly opened up old wounds. But I still think MH did a good thing here putting up the childhood cyber-bullying topic – interesting discussion here even if I don’t agree with all of it.

So, think i won’t rehash early days on teh blog anymore. Let’s all move on from that topic. Healthier for all of us all way around.

Buenas Noches, Firedancer!

This thread was not intended to be about bvbl or about hsm.

It certainly has been a spirited discussion, however. I really respect those who have shared personal experiences. I wonder how many adults today have any notion of the impact they had on others as children? Somehow when most of us grow up, we learn better social behavior. Kids can be extremely cruel.

Agreed MH – not sure how it turned into that! Actually, reading from top, I might have made second post refering to bvbl in this thread. For that, I apologize – as was not my intention either to turn it into bvbl stuff – however unwittingly i may have contributed to that. Don’t think I really did as I reread things – but certainly I wanted it focused on chidhood cyber-bullying/chidlhood bullying in general – which is much MORE of personal interest to me than any debate about bvbl, immigration, etc. Again, I am glad you put it up, seems like in the end some good things came out of this thread – even though it got a little heated in the middle! As long as the cake didn’t get burnt through and through, and seems like in the end it didn’t, maybe some good came out of it!

Wow MH – Elena and Alanna out of town? Wait to they get back and read this thread…

Oops nevermind, thought i saw MH say that, maybe I misread something as now I don’t see that anymore. I take back what I said in my post right above this one.

MH – Kids can be EXTREMELY cruel. In my opinion crueler than adults. But I am heavily biased obviously. Still, I do wonder how many kids who were bullies ponder the damage they did to people like me. Wonder if any of them feel any remorse. That and more are some of the things I’ve pondered over the years. However, have no answers for those questions – to me those are as complex questions as “what is the meaning of life”!

Oh I think they will be interested in reading it. Alanna might be reading it on her blackberry as we speak or in her hotel room.

It took me a long time to catch up, and that wasnt even reading carefully.

Yep MH, can imagine took you a long time to catch up on this thread, lots of words, lots of heat, finally more light than heat in the end! Has me a bit exhausted just thinking about the ups/downs this thread went through today.

Thanks, MH for bringing this topic up.

In your post you asked for examples of cyber bullying. You said, “Over the weekend, let’s take a look at examples of cyber bullying as it relates to blogging and politics. I am sure many of us have a story to tell.” So I gave you some BVBL specials.

Good night, everyone, and thanks. This really meant a lot to me.

GR, yeah….writing is very therapeutic. It’s also hard. But I don’t have to tell you that.

Somehow, I like to know age and gender, too. I don’t think that’s sexist. Except some people just want to dismiss you all together if you’re a woman. I don’t think that is what you were saying.

Bless you….sir?

It isn’t sexist. It is part of who we are. A tag, as it were.

Kids can be meaner than snakes. Most of us are taught as kids not to be mean and as we get older, it sinks in more. I suppose we become more socialize or domesticated.

One of the things that has not come up yet is the idea of group mentality. How many people do things in a group, as part of a group, that they would never dream of doing as an individual?

The flip side of this question is how many people would do something totally nasty and heinous if they thought no one was watching?

Most of us can think of historical examples of each situation.

Pinko – age to me is more irrelevant compared to sex – I can’t explain why and I know it sounds odd. Wish I could explain it. Yes, I am male. I am also middle aged, which probably could be figured out when I’ve said I lived in Point of Woods for more than 20 years.

Group mentality MH – can only bring up my childhood once again. 90% of time, bullying was done to me by more than one person. Very very infrequently was just one person against me. Seemed to be group dynamics of many against one (2,3, or 4 mostly) that encouraged it and they fed off each other. Just an observation – something again I’ve pondered but have not a real answer for but only own personal experience.

With that, it is late, I’m calling it a night. Goodnight all to anyone still on here. Past my bedtime even for a weekend!

@Witness Too
Witness, I somehow missed your post on women-haters. Last night was pretty intense. I woke up thinking about it and GR’s incredible story and what amazing people we have around us. And to think, it took something like this blog to bring it out.

I find that truly racist people (I mean deep down haters and manipulators, not mere jerks) usually hate more than one group. We know BVBL is also a place where gay bashing is acceptable. They’ve gone after other vulnerable groups as well, but I don’t have the quotes to show that here. So why not women? Minority groups of all kinds are the most vulnerable, and these sick people feel the need to prey on the vulnerable.

As far as feeling bad about ganging up on GL and RD….I don’t see they have been ganged up on. They have always had their close group of supporters and defenders in HSM and in county government. They have power and authority. You can’t gang up on people who are so connected and unified like that.

HSM is its own support system.

Anti isn’t a group. 9500Liberty isn’t a group. We are a bunch of individuals, mostly bloggers, who want to put an end to this thing, but we aren’t some organized force. All we really have is a blog and some big mouths

But that makes US vulnerable.

So I guess I don’t feel bad for GL and the gang in that sense.

I do feel bad in the sense that people who are so angry and hateful have a kind of sickness. They are destructive to themselves and others. And that makes me sad on all kinds of levels.

I’m not going to get overly philosophical (though I would really love to), but we’ve all got this side to us, this reactionary anger, that can destroy us. This kind of anger can fester and just rot you away and take others along with you. Most of us have felt that kind of anger. Fortunately, most of us can put a stop to it before it becomes out of control.

So that’s why I’m sad when I see what Gl/RD and some of these people have become. It’s hurting them and us and everyone else because we’re all human.

It’s all too easy for any of us to get there ourselves.

Quite the thread!! I don’t even know what I could possibly add. Well, maybe some bullying stuff from the local paper.

Well, here’s something that’s not bullying..
Happy Mother’s Day to all you moms out there!!!

Back at ya, Chris! And every other person who’s a mom or who feels like one. That might cover most of everyone.

I had family visiting so I am just now reading this thread! will comment later!!!

Happy mothers day!!!!!!!!!!

I am glad to see this thread ended up being productive. Reminds me of a really good group counseling session!

In todays outlook section there is an essay regarding whether or not the Post should accept and publish, or delete those with negative things one says on line. The ombusdman (sp) stated that all comments should be welcome, in an effort toward free speech. And the ombudsman stated that respondants should be allowed to hide behind an anon status as well. I thought this was interesting as far as the conversation about bullying.

I did not read the article, but I agree about allowing anonymous respondents. My hope is that many of the hateful and violent things that people say anonymously help them to vent their emotions, and thus they do not go out and act on them. It should be up to our elected officials not to look at such displays of hatred as an indication of public opinion. And for God’s sake, even if that IS the public opinion it should be up to our elected officials to lead rather than follow in such a situation.

I’m afraid what happened in PWC was that we had elected officials who looked at that kind of sentiment as somehow politically advantageous. So they even went so far as to legitimize it by relating to a highly manipulated and jaundiced blog like Greg’s like a public relations company. I believe that this disturbing relationship between our government and this kind of hatred is what turned our county upside down. It encouraged those who were filled with hatred, and this in turn alarmed those who are most vulnerable or most offended by hatred.

But to make myself clear, I am not faulting everyone who posted on Letiecq’s blog. Many were attempting to push back against the hatred. It’s too bad that most of those were banned, and it’s really too bad that so many people mistakenly believed the hate/bullying blog was a realistic portrayal of the type of folks who live in our county.

Also, if there were somehow a justification for disallowing anonymous comments, that would silence people who would otherwise be afraid to speak out in a hostile or oppressive environment. Readers just have to realize: when the anonymous comment is hateful, it’s probably an expression that a the person would not have made if their name was attached to it, so in that sense it can be taken less seriously (unless there are threats included). If the comment is a voice of dissent against hatred, then the reader should understand why the person behind the comment does not want to expose him or herself as a target of the hatred.

Oh, and Gainesville Resident. I would be surprised if a regular poster on this blog attacked you for supporting the “watered down” version of the Resolution. As I recall, it was Alanna and Elena who led the community in pushing for the repeal of Probable Cause. They were very brave in doing so, and earned the respect and admiration of most of the people who post here. Many contributed to the effort by calling or emailing their Supervisors.

So, GR, it was unfair to attack you for supporting this effort. Whoever did that probably should have attacked Alanna and Elena instead. All you did was say “good job.” I’m very sorry if someone attacked you. I was not a regular reader at the time but I would have defended you for certain.

All but the most extreme voices in our community agree that the Resolution without Probable Cause is much better than the Resolution with Probable Cause. It was going to force us to expend millions of dollars in law suits and was probably unconstitutional because it instructed police to try to identify members of our community who appear to be illegal and treat them differently than the rest of us. The Equal Protection Clause of our Constitution forbids this.

Many of the comments I read in all papers that allow comments are unconscionable. We got along for years without comments on everything. Everyone survived. I don’t think it is a free speech issue. In fact, the expression ‘free speech’ just about makes me barf every time I hear it or read it because it is so misused.

I did not talk about the article because I believed what it said was true. Nor do I really understand/accept the whole free speech thing unless I benefit. However, when one puts themselves out there in an article, an author of a blog, an author of an op ed piece, the author of a book, an open facebook account, a stupid twitterer, one who responds on a blog, a TLC family, one who runs a blog etc. then we are open, and have opened our opinions and lives to others. We got along for years without comments on everything because for years our comments were not made public on an online/immediate device. Now they are. We’ve made sure they are and the result is what it is.

Technology that has allowed online commenting on newspaper articles – has led to this sort of online venting of feelings. i kind of think what Witness Too said is hopefully true – allowing people to vent online precludes them moving on to more violent things. Venting can sometimes be good if not taken to extremes. Although, as i said, technology has caused a lot more visibility into vicious types of commentary about newspaper articles and so on. It is both good and bad. Now feedback is immediate – maybe sometimes too immediate as people don’t let things sink in and think about them. All of this is an interesting byproduct of today’s technology. As people said though, for years we got by without this – there was just the “letter to the editor” newspaper section and that was it!

In regards to my early days on here – kind of want to close that topic, but that was what got me on the defensive side – just saying something relatively innocuous. I even pointed out in response that I never said I supported the original resolution, as i came in late to the debate. what bugged me was attempts to link me to Greg, say I must be an HSM member, etc. Whatever, it is over with, so will just move on. Just thought some people – if they were wrong about that, they might have to step back and think they might be wrong about a lot of other people too – as far as who was and was not HSM members, bvbl posters, and what not. That’s all I’ll say on this now.

It was good to link that article in about comments to newspaper articles, in this thread – it does fit right in. I’ve only a little looked at Washington Post comments, and even on non-immigration topics boy is there some ugly stuff in there. I wouldn’t want to even try to post in there, it’s like jumping into the water with a bunch of sharks.

When I was in first grade, I can vividly recall, walking home from school, alone, singing and crying all at the same time, tears sometimes making it impossible to see in front of me. I was horribly teased by some older boys because of they way I looked. I had a severe overbite with front teeth that went their own direction. I started headgear in the latter part of first grade, wore it almost 24 hours a day, began braces in fifth grade. By seventh grade my teeth and overbite were corrected. I have never forgotten how incredibly sad those boys made me feel.

Behind the “scenes” here on anti, there are several posters who take “enjoyment” out of critiquing several anti women on their looks, it doesn’t bother me. It actually makes me wonder……how lonely, sad, and empty these people must feel to find it necessary to attempt to be so cruel. You can see it often on the dark screen, those very personal attacks on our physical appearance, but it truly only demonstrates how shallow their arguments have become, when they sink to such depths.

Gainesville,
I am so sorry to hear about your childhood pain, pain that clearly left scars. I think many people bear those scars from childhood, although not necessarily shared experiences, those times are when, as human beings, we are the most vulnerable.

Almost 20 years ago, a young man name Alex, aged 15 was killed by pervert. Alex was out riding his dirt bike in the woods, along where the Cardinal Drive power lines go through, when a guy named Michael George got him, tortured him, and eventually killed him. Michael George was executed in 1997 because he had also stolen Alex’s shoes. That theft allowed the death penalty to kick in.

Alex’s parents were highly thought of in our community. I later got to know his mother and she was a lovely, gracious lady who somehow had managed to forgive her son’s murderer.

Bear with me….during the trial period, someone wrote a letter to the editor. The writer spoke of bullying another boy on the school bus. They bullied him because he was slight, because he was poor, and I don’t remember all the other reasons–the usual lame reasons kids have for ganging up on others.

The writer then revealed the identity of the boy whom they had bullied on the school bus: Michael George. The author wondered if they had in any way influenced George’s adult behavior and would things have turned out differently had those on the bus not made that kid’s life miserable.

Rarely have I read a letter that hit me between the eyes like that one. The depth of the soul searching gave me chills, and it made wonder how many kids are permanently altered, in one way or another, from the cruelty of others. Who is to say?

I doubt that any one thing causes a murderer to evolve. But perhaps if one person stops, thinks, refuses to join the mob mentality, then that perfect storm from within that makes one person become a murderer….well, maybe it won’t happen.

I wish I had saved that letter to the editor. It has haunted me for 20 years.

That was a powerful post Moon-Howler. For me, the pain those boys caused had the opposite effect. I never allowed anyone in my presence to be teased or ridiculed, never happened, no matter how popular the kids, I always let them know what I thought of their behavior. But I can see, how that kind of pain, without the right support system, on those that are not resilient, can twist their souls. This is not an excuse, we all make choices in life, and we are responsible for those choices, but I can see how suffering alone can change people.

The scary thing is we do not know how a person might be affected. For you, it made you a champion of the underdog, it sounds like. I will never forget that letter I read. It was one of those things you never forget. I made my kids read it. They still remember it.

Witness, it’s true not everyone on BVBL is a hater. Some people vent online. I know I have. The problem is, you vent and people vent back at you and so it continues and gets nastier. However, for most people, venting is just that–venting.

That said, there are too many people who take their venting into real life because for them, it’s not just venting. There are too many people who act out what they say, and sometimes, when there are so many people venting, it all festers, crazy people feel empowered, and it all gets mixed together.

I never would have believed it until a few years ago…and I’m going to put this out there…that I was raped and beat up by an internet wacko. When I was talking to him online, I was already in a very bad place psychologically (bad depression and ADHD meds, bad doc etc.), and I didn’t believe him. I didn’t believe him. I didn’t believe people could ever be like that, that messed up. I mean, I was pretty messed up, but NEVER like that.

So you can see why I take threats online VERY seriously. You don’t know who will take the hate out of cyberspace and into real life.

That said, I’ve always had some moral outrage, but this made me crazy outraged at anyone whom I perceived was getting picked on.

The experience also gave me lovely things like PTSD which I have survived, thank God, but there are certainly days…and even with all the progress I have made (got a new doc, BTW, soon after that happened, appropriate depression meds, etc.), I about cracked when these people started to invade my blog space with their hate. I went right back to a place I hadn’t been in awhile. So I turned off my comments. I had to. It wasn’t good for my psyche, and I just don’t need it in my life.

I didn’t listen to the “testimony” against me at the little “hearing” attended and promoted by a laughable sized group. Again, I just didn’t need that in my life. But that five members of the BOCS supported hatred, thwarted free speech and listened to a pathetic minority (What? About 50 emails and 4 people at the meeting out of 400,000 residents in PWC?) told me something about this county. They don’t want to repair this county’s reputation.

They STILL support hatred.

And they support people who complain about stupid things like potty mouth–like that’s a valid reason to deny non-political, civic engagement.

WTF?

Elena, I also had the teeth problem but didn’t get my braces until 4th grade if I remember right, got them off in 8th grade. Added to my problems obviously.

Yes, anyone who is making fun of people’s weight or whatever behind the scenes as it were, is really stooping low and must not have much better things to do with their time I guess. Truly uncalled for, and downright mean.

KG – sorry to hear about your bad experience with online internet activity that led to physical violence. There’s a lot of wackos out there, but there’s plenty of cases out there where women have started out online with someone that led to unfortunate physical encounter.

Actually meant to say “BET there’s plenty of cases out there…”

Haha…I’m another member of the overbite crowd except that I never had mine straightened. By the time I got over my childhood fear of dentists and had the money to have them corrected, I didn’t bother. I remember being teased about my teeth only once as a child – by another child that was teased about his weight. I guess I didn’t let it bother me enough to take my parents up on their offer for braces.

Bullying at school didn’t occur often when I was a child. Corporal punishment was still practiced by the school principal so most of us stayed in line. At home in our neighborhoods, we were subject to scolding by all the neighborhood “moms”. There wasn’t a lot of “my child can do no wrong” attitude at play in the “olden days”. It’s probably much tougher being a child now and being subject to harassment from a variety of commonly used devices – pretty much inescapable.

I have mixed feelings about the reply section to news articles. It’s sometimes good to be able to post an opinion without having to fear real life harassment. I would hope it’s an opinion expressed rationally. However, most of the replies to WaPo articles -and particularly those in the MJM/PN – can be so loony/hateful that they’re not the least instructional except that one would become aware that there are plenty of unbalanced folks out there. Believe me, they’re out there at neighborhood meetings as well – they’re often the screamers who won’t allow others to speak, the tire-puncturers who retaliate against opposing positions, the folks that the police have to keep away from the construction equipment moved on site. What I don’t like about the newspaper replies is that bullying/abrasive public behavior that most people would be ashamed of is now becoming standard. It’s a lowering off the bar that I hate to see – even if it’s inevitable.

Off=of
(and there are probably more typos)

Censored, I didn’t have much fear of the dentist, but still it wasn’t much fun. Had to get total of 6 teeth pulled to make room in my mouth before I got the braces.

Didn’t have corporal punishement in school. Few times I reported bullies, not sure exactly what happened. One time though one almost broke my jaw – and after going to nurses office because I had to, at principal’s office was interviewed by police officer. I didn’t even know this kid, had never really seen him before (semi-large junior high school of roughly 900 students). Didn’t even know his name and almost couldn’t ID him (but did on request of principal next time I saw him in hall surreptitously followed him to class and reported him, which was a few days later). Anyway, police officer interviewed me, never knew what happen, suspect they just scared the pants off that kid as he never bugged me again, but then again I rarely saw him or encountered him. Was just random encounter getting off school bus when it arrived at school, he was getting off some other school bus I guess, or just milling around front of school waitintg to make trouble with some unsuspecting victim. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time so to speak, as I’d never even seen this kid before, who was a big kid, much bigger in size than me or bigger than size of average person (I was short and thin). Anyway, that’s the only time that the school maybe came close to some serious discipline. I only reported maybe 1% or less of times I was victimized, my parents thought I was reporting everything – little did they know I only told them and school authorities the most very serious ones. Otherwise they might as well have set up desk and chair for me in principals office!

These days, maybe things might be handled more differently, maybe some of them would have led to assault charges I suppose. Things were much different in 60’s/70’s when I went to school then today. Then again, I fear that today those bullies would be carrying around hidden knives, probably, so glad I don’t go to school today. This was in upper middle class area, although had pieces that were not upper middle class, most bullies seemed to belong to those lower class areas of community I lived in. Elementary school not so bad, things got worse in Middle School which seved entire township (in New Jersey) – and first started mixing with those lower class kids.

Thanks GR. It has taken me a long time to get past all this. If anything, it taught me that clowning around on the Internet isn’t safe. I watch my kids’ internet activity VERY closely.

I am glad Gainesville implemented the bullying policy, and I hope more schools follow suit.

PWCS has a general bullying rule. One problem, however, is how to define bullying. PWCS’s is still a little subjective.

Definition of Bullying
Bully/victim violence occurs whenever a student intentionally, repeatedly, and over time inflicts or threatens to inflict physical or emotional injury or discomfort on another’s body, feelings, or possessions.
A person is being bullied when he or she is exposed, repeatedly and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more persons. Bullying behaviors include actions which cause the physical, verbal or emotional abuse of others and shall not be tolerated. Taunts, threats, insults, gossip, humiliation, teasing, pushing, tripping, and hitting are all considered bullying behaviors. Violators are subject to corrective action up to and including suspension and expulsion.
http://www.pwcs.edu/admin/pwcs/admin_pdfs/R733.01-1.pdf

PAP,
So sorry to hear about your horrific trauma by a nutcase.

LOL! I like how you put that. “Trauma by nutcase.” Sounds like a great book title!

Like I said, it has gotten MUCH better between time and better medical care. It’s a long process, though, as you can imagine. This happened 4 years ago.

Interesting Pinko – did just the Gainesvile part of PWC schools implement the bullying policy? Reading your post it sounds that way. Don’t know PWC schools as never went to them and have no children, but would have hoped policies like that would automatically be implemented county-wide.

Good question, GR. I only know what you know from the article.

I might ask. My older daughter goes to Gainesville.

Actually, this quote from the article kind of answers the question: “The suggested changes to the Code of Behavior, which the School Board reviews and updates annually…”

If they update the behavior code, then yes, it would apply to all PWC schools.

I emailed the Middle School Super to get clarification.

OK, thanks Pinko. Does seem like if they update the code, it applies to all PWC schools. Sounded thought that Gainesville Middle school (I guess) made some change above and beyond the policy. Maybe just the update didn’t make it to the website – briefly skimming that policy on the link you sent seemed to have a date of 2005 on it – did not have time to read the whole thing though.

Posting as Pinko, I am sorry to hear about your painful experience. I understand how long it can take not only psychologically but medically to get through something like this. Medication changes do not take effect immediately and it may take a long time to adjust them appropriately. Even when medication has stabilized, metabolic and other changes can warrant more adjustments. I hope you have good, consistent care now that you are with a different doctor.

This has been an informative rather emotional thread. I would like to congratulate you all for participating. Bullying and its effects are not easy things to talk (or in this case write) about.

Pinko, I admire your courage all the more. You are a survivor not a victim. There are a lot of people in your situation who never come forward and carry the secret as if they are the one who should be ashamed. No, it is the one who engages in a cowardly act of violence who should be ashamed. Survivors with such courage are a blessing to society.

Elena, your story is also illuminating. Along with Gainseville Resident, this entire thread has been a catharsis as well as an example of how painful experiences can make us stronger, more courageous, and more capable of reaching understanding, and giving back to your community.

Thanks, Witness. I don’t see myself as a victim, either, if for no other reason than there are so many people suffering so much more. Besides, I am blessed to have a family to take care of, and that has held me together.

Elena, you inspire me. You’ve turned painful experiences into something else–something worth doing. There are positives that come from all this. We just can’t always see them right away.

It sounds like Gainesville Middle is highlighting the problem and incorporating cyber-bullying into their program. However, at the same time, the county is probably updating its Code of Behavior to contain more specific language forbidding cyber-bullying.

Apparently cyber-bullying is growing exponentially. We also have to include kids recording smackdowns and group beatings on their cell phones, then posting the events on youtube. Why are kids surprised when they get expelled for gang jumping a single student getting off a school bus?

OK Moon-howler – what you say makes sense about what Gainesville Middle might be doing in addition to what is already in county school code. As you say, that is probably getting updated too. Wonder if maybe they don’t keep it up-to-date on website, as it seemed to be dated June 2005.

Does seem like it is really a growing problem – again technology enabling something bad, and it is getting easier and easier to do and more pervasive as everyone is connected 24×7 through things like Facebook and so on. What a mess! That stuff with kids posting criminal activity on youtube is some really sick stuff. And how stupid can you be anyway – commit a crime and post video of yourself doing so! First one I remember was some stupid kids somewhere going around shooting at people with BB guns, and filming the whole thing including themselves and putting it up on youtube. They must have been surprised when police came knocking at their doors a few days later! What a bunch of dummies!

Cyber-bullying has no weight other than solicitation for social sympathy, outrage and expression of social disgust, an outlet for social cynicism or expression of social insecurity, quite often used when it can be “interpretable” in the eyes of the beholder as a psychological self-victimization weapon for people who lack power to obtain power over others by refusing to stand up for themselves, by soliciting guilt, by soliciting sympathy or by passively intimidating others withpassive agressive behavior, by accusing them of wrongs they may not have done in the strict letter of the law, IF THE ACTIONS DO NOT FOLLOW THE FOLLOWING LEGAL DEFINION OF LAW-BREAKING.

“Young people should be aware that some forms of online bullying are considered criminal acts. Under the Criminal Code of Canada, it is a crime to communicate repeatedly with someone if your communication causes them to fear for their own safety or the safety of others.”

You must inform the person of this fear for their own safety for it to be a crime and file a police report. A judge must then allow the accused a fair hearing to determine who is telling the truth and who is lying.

“It’s also a crime to publish a “defamatory libel” – writing something that is designed to insult a person or likely to injure a person’s reputation by exposing him or her to hatred, contempt or ridicule.”

How many on this blog have hurt the reputation of Corey Stuart, or Greg Letique by false accusations designed to injure a person’s reputation?, or in the cast of Posting as Pinko, by people who said things about her that were designed to injure her commercial or public employment reputation?. These may be persecuted by filing a police report and bring libel hearings before the judge. It is up to the judge to determine who was damaged by what was said and who will deserve financial compensation for public or political libel.

If it is not public or political Libel, by the letter of the law, then it is FREE political speech, which is usually the ruling on cases brought to court as a result of things said on open forum blogs.

“A cyber bully may also be violating the Canadian Human Rights Act, if he or she spreads hate or discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status or disability.”

How many people on BOTH sides of the debate on this blog have made racist comments, prejudiced, priviliged or discrimminated against “individuals” based on race, national or ethnic origin, color, religion (YES Gospel Greg hate speech), age, sex (Women hater AND man hater speech), sexual orientation, marital status (hate speech directed at a bloggers spouse), family status or disability.

Note that weight, and intelligence are not included on this list of discrimmination because business can discrimminate against weight, and intellect and likely always will be able to.

To be “bullying” technically you must also past the legal test of “assault”.

Assault is a crime of violence against another person. In some jurisdictions, including Australia and New Zealand, assault refers to an act that causes another to apprehend immediate and personal violence, while in other jurisdictions, such as the United States, assault may refer only to the threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force.[1][2] On the other hand, in Canada, assault can be simply just touching another without their consent.

Assault is often defined to include not only violence, but any physical contact with another person without their consent. In common law jurisdictions, including England and Wales and the United States, battery is the crime that represents the unlawful physical contact, though this distinction does not exist in all jurisdictions. Exceptions exist to cover unsolicited physical contact which amount to normal social behavior known as de minimis harm.

In most jurisdictions, the intention to cause grievous bodily harm (or its equivalent) may amount to the mental requirement to prefer a charge of murder in circumstances where the harm inflicted upon the victim proves fatal.[3]

At common law criminal assault was an attempted battery. The elements of battery are (1) a volitional act[4] (2) done for the purpose of causing an harmful or offensive contact with another person or under circumstances that make such contact substantially certain to occur and (3) which causes such contact.[5] Thus throwing a rock at someone for the purpose of hitting him is a battery if the rock in fact strikes the person and is an assault if the rock misses. The fact that the person may have been unaware that the rock was thrown at him is irrelevant under this definition of assault. Some jurisdictions have incorporated the definition of civil assault into the definition of the crime making it a criminal assault to intentionally place another person in “fear” of a harmful or offensive contact. “Fear” means merely apprehension – awareness rather than any emotional state. Therefore, if you see the rock in flight and realize that you are in danger of being hit then the element of “fear” has been met even if the prospect of being hit by a rock does not frighten you.

Everything ELSE that does not PASS THIS STRICT legal test is “FREE SPEECH on an open and public forum.

There are many “beliefs” and desires to oppress the general public with personal views (religious or socialist or other wise) out there, but the LAW is the only correct interpretation of what constitutes bullying.

I would love to entertain comments later, but I am tired and only have time for one quote to but a balanced view to the above discussion.

I too feel sorry for anyone who feels they have been bullied, but you must also understand what technically is “bullying” according to the law is ASSAULT, and ASSAULT is very different than what is just someones personal greivance with another person.

Michael, your references to Canadian law are interesting.

And as you imply, it’s damn hard to prove libel because in order to substantiate the claim, you have to show concrete damage such as loss of money or job or something of that order.

Proving psychological damage is also pretty difficult unless the victim has a disability or some other trait that would cause him/her to be more easily injured. But even then, usually unless there is physical evidence correlating with the psychological (for example, panic attacks or something like that), the law probably wouldn’t step in with more than a “Hey you! Knock it off!”

If a blogger or anyone else truly feels threatened, s/he should report it to the police as a safety measure and save all communications in case they are needed.

In school, the stakes are different because if, for example, there is a kid who is afraid to show up to class, the school must take action or they can be held liable. And of course, cyber-bullying can lead to physical bullying–I’d be interested to see some stats on that. Schools don’t necessarily need to prove assault to suspend or even expel a student. A few threats will usually do.

The slippery part is proving intimidation in school. It can happen for sure, and I am also sure there have been enough cases of cyber-bullying for the school to have shown a need for the policy. I guess that’s the criteria they will use when considering a full-blown county policy. It will be interesting to see.

I’m off to bed too. G’night!

Michael, ‘bullying’ is generally defined in sociological and psychological terms.

Trying bullying someone at work and watch how long you have a job. Bully someone at school. See how long you are enrolled as a student.

Odd that you should come to the defense of Corey Stewart. It sounds to me like you have some principle interest here. Verrrry interesting. I don’t recall anyone ever criticizing Corey here other than over political differences. Funny you are trying to make it personal. Why is that?

I’m fairly certain no one is able to penetrate Corey Stewart’s ego deep enough to cause him psychological harm. And since his political network and pockets are deep, there is little chance a blog or blogger would even come close to libel/slander. Besides, what would he or anyone else get from suing? Most of us aren’t what you would call economically viable targets, even if he or anyone else COULD prove libel/slander.

Politicians are harder pressed than the average person to prove damages because unless you start saying things like “He slept with my mother!” then their political actions are fair game–that includes poking fun and mocking, however offensive that kind of behaviour may seem to some. The more likely scenario would be an official suing a large media corporation, which undoubtedly has good lawyers working for them anyway.

I also doubt anyone knows enough about any of the key players’ personal lives to make it personal. I know I don’t (and wouldn’t want to). Key players = Stewart, Stirrup, GL, Duecaster, HSM radicals, FAIR lobbyists, etc.

Conversely, HSM seems to know a lot about OUR personal lives. They are good at delving into, say, where people work (i.e. Marie and others…I don’t count since it doesn’t take a genius to figure out the places I work…and yes, I said “places”). HSM has also looked up and posted things like addresses, marital records, license plate numbers and other information that has nothing to do with the immigration debate and/or how it affects the community.

So if we really wanted to go down that road…which frankly I don’t…bloggers could come together and make a real legal stink over this whole ridiculous mess brought to us courtesy of FAIR, HSM and our BOCS.

If Stewart would stop talking about it, we might have a chance to let it die down, but since he is representing PWC and the rest of the BOCS by bragging about crime stats with little meaning, there’s little chance of this happening. One could argue Stewart is media-bullying.

“Michael”,
As usual…..HUH? Having worked in the school system, we never equated verbal bullying to assualt, it was simply unacceptable behavior that was used to intimidate other students, and often, that mean behavior, correlated with problems at home. Bullies usually suffer from low self esteem.

As far as Corey et al go, I am very confident that we directed our disdain for their ill concieved policies, a policy that generated from an organization, FAIR, that is listed as an extremist group by ADL. The Anti Defamation League is an organization recognized world wide and one that has a training program for law enforcement that has participation nationally.

I, along with Alanna, and many others, have always advocated that there is a credible discussion to be had regarding immigration, national safety, and economics, however, we have urged the immmediate end of scapegoating and villification of one culture, Latino’s. It’s that simple, really. You continue to miss that point.

All I’ll say is some on here called Corey racist many times. I do not believe he is so, he is just your average politician trying to take advantage of what he perceived as a hot button issue, and slanting things to make his point. That is not racism. I thought those who called him racists were really reaching. Corey is just no better or worse than any politician, they all skew facts, lie, etc. to make their point. Has anyone met an honest politician? I haven’t.

I agree with you Gainesville, I think it was opportunistic of Corey, all political. However, I was troubled, during the summary of the citizen satisfaction survery, when Corey asked if “Spanish speakers were asked about their legal status”. Why would you ask only Spanish speakers?

OK, fair enough Elena. But I still see that as political opportunism, just saying what he thought people (his supporters) wanted him to hear. I just think there was too much of “racist Corey this”, “racist Corey that” by some posters on this blog at times. Got kind of tiring to read and really does anyone believe he is truly racist? Well I guess some posters on here do so probably shouldn’t even bother to ask the question as I already have my answer, in regards to what I read here in the past.

To me, if you support racism and you are in a position of power, you are racist by default.

Look, if I promote drug abuse but manage to hide or deny my own use, aren’t I still a drug user?

The first version of the resolution promoted racism in that it encouraged racial profiling.

The resolution was taken from a racist group–FAIR.

There’s no excuse for that in my book…never mind Stewart’s slip-ups referring to Spanish speakers. And how about bragging about all those ESOL kids supposedly gone? Is that not racism?

I have blogged extensively about racism, so I won’t bore you to death with it, but for the reasons I mentioned above, I believe Stewart is racist….as well as another lying politician.

GR, I agree. Most politicians lie and are opportunists. I have a poor opinion of politicians. I do not have a poor opinion of leaders. Real leaders don’t let extremist and hate groups run their county.

I still don’t agree Stewart is racist, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. All politicians are liars, in my opinion, there isn’t an honest one in the bunch. So calling Corey a liar is not a big deal.

And the word racism or racist is overused here at times. I know I read posts here where anyone who supported the resolution was a racist. Let’s get real.

@Gainesville Resident
I know what you mean, GR. MH hates it when I use “racism” as well. She thinks it’s used too much so it doesn’t mean anything anymore. She’s right, but I can’t come up with a better word. Bigotry? Discrimination?

Pinko – either of those words, especially bigotry, have the same connotation. Bigotry is essentially a synonym for racism. Discrimination, i think not either.

I just think it is stretching it to say Stewart is racist. Just the way some posters on here made statements to the effect that anyone who supports the resolution is racist, or must have ideas planted in their head by Greg, or any of a number of other equally silly and untrue statements.

Anyway, I’ll continue to disagree on the above.

Agree to disagree….that’s fair. What we think or do not think of him doesn’t effect Stewart one bit anyway.

Racism is racial or ethnic prejudice (thought) in action. If one is actively promoting or using racial/ethnic prejudice to their advantage, I would have to say you could make a fair case for that qualifying as racism.

I can’t be sure what someone thinks unless they tell me, but words and actions are a different story. If your words or actions indicate a belief that a certain cultural group should be treated with greater suspicion or should leave the area….what does that say about you?

Just curious…what does qualify as actual racism if people here are using the term too freely?

Here’s some interesting research – there is a link between being bullied and psychotic behavior later in life (like the story MH told) along with other stats about bullying

http://www.child-psych.org/2009/05/bully-victims-at-risk-for-psychotic-symptoms.html

Interesting article You Wish. I am quite sure bullying can lead to different effects on different victims obviously, and things can sometimes go very bad, as we’ve seen at VA Tech and some other school shootings, and of course perhaps in adult life I’m sure there has been cases too. Hopefully, those cases are few and far between. No doubt though, bullying leaves lifelong scars, and some people handle it better or differently than others.

The article says frequency of bullying was a major predictor of increased chances of problems later on. In my case bullying was daily and sometimes more than one time a day. Also roughly 30 or 40% of it I’d say was physical, rest was just verbal. While for me the problems manifested in extreme shyness and still to this day at the oddest times I’ll clam up in social situations and also I don’t like crowded malls (reminds me of hallways at school where 75% of bullying occurred), I’m glad my problems weren’t more extreme. Obviously there are other factors at play, but I can see the article’s point in some ways as to frequency of bullying, physicality of it, spreading rumors (didn’t happen to me), and social exclusion (I had a few friends and really the bad guys weren’t ones who I’d wanted to be friends with anyway) – can make one susceptical to extreme psychiatric problems later in life. Obviously VA Tech shooter was an example of psychotic behavior. Anyway, good article, thanks for posting.

@DiversityGal
DG, I had fun with the “what is racism?” question on my blog. You can bore yourself by going here: http://luxuriouschoices.blogspot.com/2009/04/reverse-discrimination.html

I do believe if public officials support racist groups and racist policy, then they are racist.

Think about it like this. If you support Obama’s policy on abortion, are you not, then, someone who believes abortion isn’t necessarily “wrong”?

@GainesvilleResident
Gainesville Resident, more often than not, you will see comordbid conditions in seriously mentally ill patients. This means there is more than one illness going on at once. Cho most likely had many comorbid illnesses.

There is no doubt in my mind that Cho had a psychological drive towards violence which was exacerbated by his being bullied. External events combined with neurological imbalances make mental illness far worse–never mind that Cho was not under treatment.

As you know from your own experiences, though, bullying can cause emotional trauma. But that doesn’t mean you will necessarily become violent.

OK Anesthesia – yes I’m sure Cho had more than one psychological issue. And it does indeed seem more than plausible to me that external events can exacerbate these underlying psychological issues in someone who already has them or is prone to those things. But yes, while in many cases it causes emotional trauma, it does not make most of us into mass murderers. Bullying is so prevalent, that there is such a large sample size of victims, unfortunately thre are bound to be these outlier cases where there are extreme reactions unfortunately. To me it is a simple numbers game, probability tells us that there are bound to be extreme cases/reactions, and Cho was definitely one of those, as were some other notorious school shootings and probably other incidents not in the schools, and even by adults.

I’m sure plenty of medical/behavorial papers and research has been done, or will be done on this.

Here’s a general article on Cho’s mental state which shows comorbid conditions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/26/AR2007082601410.html?wpisrc=newsletter

Here’s an interesting article on cyber bullying that includes a family ganging up on a middle school girl on FaceBook.

http://www.fedsmith.com/article/1780/

From the article if you don’t have time to read it:

–You may have read the very recent – and profoundly disturbing – headline about a Missouri woman who was found guilty of misdemeanor crimes in a “MySpace” cyber-bullying case linked to a 13-year-old girl’s suicide. According to prosecutors, the woman conspired with her young daughter and a business associate to create a fictitious profile of a 16-year-old boy on MySpace to harass Megan Meier, apparently in an effort to humiliate Megan for saying mean things about her daughter.

The “boy” sent flirtatious messages to Megan, but then abruptly changed to a very harsh tone, telling her “The world would be a better place without you.” After receiving that message, Megan hanged herself with a belt in her bedroom closet. According to prosecutors, the woman knew that Megan suffered from depression and was emotionally fragile.–

Posting As Pinko :
@DiversityGal
I do believe if public officials support racist groups and racist policy, then they are racist.
Think about it like this. If you support Obama’s policy on abortion, are you not, then, someone who believes abortion isn’t necessarily “wrong”?

An excellent point, but there is a difference because opinions on abortion are acceptable on both sides of the issue, while racism has been pretty well rejected by mainstream America. Also, I believe there is a difference thinking that racism is not necessarily wrong and being a racist.

Racist organizations like the KKK have been growing and organizing on the immigration issue this whole decade, and there are hate groups/lobbying firms that have meddled in Prince William County government policy, even written policy the Immigration Resolution for us.

But that does not in itself mean the policy was racist. It means only that there were likely racist intentions for SOME for the people who supported it it. If you are an elected official who did not realize this until after the fact, it is unfair to be called racist unless you knew ahead of time. They did change the policy almost immediately after the hate group connections were revealed, and at the time when they first voted for the policy, they mistakenly believed that people actually wanted it due to their unfamiliarity with how automated faxes and national email databases work.

So in sum, I think it is harsh language to go after the Board as an institution as being racist, and it not productive to refer to the policy as racist. The best way to reverse a policy is to show that it is counterproductive, or, in our case, that it will lead to racial profiling lawsuits and damage our local economy. Neither of these things directly say the word “racism” but they were ultimately a lot more effective.

Witness, I agree that some members of the BOCS probably didn’t understand the ramifications of the first immigration resolution or the origins of the emails–though why they would ignore thousands of people protesting outside their chambers is beyond me. Shouldn’t that have given a clue that there was something inherently wrong with the resolution?

But even after it was discovered the original resolution would encourage racial profiling, there were people on the BOCS who didn’t want the resolution changed (to say nothing of the HSM crowd who wanted it to stay the same as well). There are people who still brag about the resolution like it has done miracles for this county. This attitude marks something more than a big, bad “ooops.”

As far as the abortion debate, there are people who believe abortion is absolutely immoral and should never be allowed. In the same way there are people who believe a policy that at best exacerbates racism should never be allowed.

Unlike anti-abortion folks, though, racists will rarely admit what they are trying to achieve. They will never say, “Yes, I’m a racist and I’m proud of it.” They will, instead, try to justify their behavior and call it something like…oh, I don’t know…free speech?

“Neither of these things directly say the word “racism” but they were ultimately a lot more effective.”

But Witness, there IS racism involved when a policy encourages racial profiling! Whether it’s harsh or not, it has to be said, IMHO. Call it what it is.

I seriously doubt the validity of the concepts that the original resolution encouraged racial profiling. When you read it, it “required” officers to treat all people the same ragardless of race, and ask them if stopped about illegal immigration status. How can manditorily asking “everyone” their legal status if they do not have a driver’s license or other proof of legality be “racial profiling?”.

The resolution in its current state still allows officers to inquire into illegal status if they believe it is warrented by the behaviors of the individual. This is not racial profiling either.

Many of you say things you believe are true, because you’ve said them so many times and “believe” they are true when they are not. That is because of your lack of “ethics” and “knowledge” and your own racial prejudices to support “illegal” immigrants.

The whole “racist” thing is getting old quick. And several individuals have tried to, politely, show that it is not productive in moving forward in PWC and healing the rift. Why some people continue to bang that drum is beyond me, especially when those same people (Pinko and ShellyB come to mind)are the ones crying about the bad name the county has. When you continually bash away at a group of individuals who were trying to do what they felt was the right thing at the time, you are just rubbing salt in the wound.

Please, enough already. Can we move on from the damn “Your racist, he’s racist, that’s racist” and move forward? Can we stop spinning our wheels?

Courtland Milloy wrote about anonymous cyber nastiness in his column today in the Post Metro section. Title: “Online Readers Should Tone Down the Invective”. First paragraph: “Who are you people? You get invited to make comments about my work on the Washington Post website, and you turn my online message post into a dart board. You swagger into cyberspace under assumed names and start hurling invectives like drunks in a barroom brawl.”

And please show how it encouraged racial profiling. According to the stats on this very blog, the arrest rate wasn’t as high as was thought. So was it truly racial profiling? Is it profiling to ask someone for identification when they are pulled over? And don’t give me the “the police were told to pull over individuals who are Hispanic” line. Unless you can directly show where those orders were given, give up the ghost.

We’re not just spinning our wheels with this crap, we’re spinning our wheels in the damn mud and continuing to tarnish the county.

Michael, you are trying but still having trouble with some, many and other modifiers. Too much broad-brushing. Since when do one or 2 people make up this blog?

Happy, someone asked how we define racism. That’s how the discussion started.

The current policy says all those arrested are brought into jail and checked for immigration status. This is fair across the board.

The original resolution left too much leeway for profiling. We had Hispanic people getting pulled over because they had broken tail lights. We’ve had actual Hispanic citizens pulled over and hassled because they were Hispanic. There are documented cases of that sort of thing–go to an immigration lawyer and just ask. But if you don’t believe me, believe this: we had actual citizens of all ethnic groups asking, “What on Earth constitutes probable cause?” The language and process was simply too slippery, never mind where that language came from (a group endorsed by FAIR). Hispanics became easier targets, and any cops (god forbid) who had a grudge against Hispanics could do what they wanted because they were protected by the resolution.

To boot, we didn’t and still don’t have cameras to protect anyone–residents and police alike.

You don’t have to say, “Pull over Hispanics” for any of this to happen. Do you think the rash of profiling of African Americans at one time was part of an official policy? Racism is never stated, as I said before. No one admits to being racist.

Race is an issue here. Sorry if you don’t like it, but since someone asked, I’m going to address it. We still have racist people pushing their agendas, and until people like Corey Stewart stop supporting these people, I and others probably will have to keep beating that drum.

If they want racial harmony, then they need to create it, not thwart it. My discussing it can’t possibly have more effect than Corey Stewart has on this county and our national (and international) reputation. He’s the BOCS Chair. I am merely a concerned citizen with a big mouth but no political or social clout. Who of us has the most power to turn this thing around? Who has created the reputation? Do you think I could have done that all on my own?

No matter how much I talk, there is no way I could do damage to a county that is still sanctioning racism. They’ve done enough damage on their own and they don’t stop.

Tell Stewart and Stirrup to break up with HSM and company and maybe people like me will shut up. Until then….

Um, last time I checked ANYONE can be pulled over in VA for a broken tail light. It’s a $75 ticket. I guess only US citizens have to obey the law, huh?

I’ll believe you when you start actually stating facts instead of pulling them out of your behind. Although your past history has shown that you are good at make up stories and then when you are caught lying, you quickly twist in the wind and say “That’s not what I said!!”

If you’ve talked to immigrantion lawyers, you should be able to quote the complaints filed against the police department. They should be public record if there have been documented complaints against the police force, correct? If it was SUCH a huge problem, wouldn’t there have been an investigation done by someone at a federal level?

Probable cause? Let’s see – speeding, weaving in and out of traffic, not obeying stop signs/lights, wreckless driving – should I go on?

I just feel really sorry that everywhere you go, you see racism. Numerous people on this blog have tried to explain their side and you call them racist. It’s sad, really. You are the only one who bangs this drum about racism. THE ONLY ONE. And you are the only one that continues to make race an issue. For a rich white SAHM, I’m not so sure that your intentions are a pure as you claim them to be.

I soo… agree with Happy Harry.

I was the one who asked the question about what qualifies as “real” racism if some think that people here are using it to freely. I wanted to have an open and honest discussion about it. I appreciate Posting as Pinko trying to address her opinion on my question. What do you all think real racism is, Happy Harry and Michael?

It seems to me, and I may be very wrong, like you are disturbed when anyone mentions the term at any time. I just think it would clarify things to see what your definition of real racism is.

In any case, I don’t think Posting as Pinko is the only one interested in the topic of racism, or who thinks that it exists. It is a very loaded term, but one that shouldn’t be avoided altogether; it sometimes merits discussion.

that should read “too freely”

Back to the original thread…cyber bullying is no different from “bullying”, is no different from “assault”.

When I was a kid, when another kid came up to you and threatened to harm you if you did not give him or her your lunch money, THAT WAS A BULLY, and BY LAW because immiediate harm was threatened THAT WAS ASSSAULT. (yes I once had a young girl older than I was threaten me to take my money, who pushed me down a hill and broke my collerbone when I said no.)

If you do not threaten harm to another individual, that IS NOT Bullying, and it is NOT ASSAULT.

It is simply FREE speech you find offensive, or free specch you don’t like because someone called you a name, or said something untruthful about you that you did not like to other people.

In this world of turning passive-aggressive covert character assassination into punishable LAW that passive aggressives can use to punish people they don’t like, or because they said something they don’t like, or because someone’s feelings got hurt, or some psychological nut case decided to hang herself,

Then we have no boundary for measuring the harm done by Assault, being distinctly done by the perceived harm done by self-victimizing people who imagine “Bullying” or Cyber-bullying” because they want power and sympathy for their own insecurity.

And YES there are cases where young men from Ivy League schools were FALSELY accused of RAPE, because the person didn’t like what they said about her to others at the party. How do you protect these people from pople who are only to willing to make up stories and LIE?

You MAKE ONLY ACTIONS punishable under the law, starting with the concept of Assault (threatening to immediately harm another, with a threat that can be reasonably carried out). Then there is this “diminis” thing, squishy, very squishy… and easy to lie about…

The end effect of the trend of making passive agressive punishment end up being a tool you can use to target and punish people who say things you don’t like as “bullying”, will be that no-one ever says anything for fear of being punished under the law, and people who you target as “groups” you hate, such as “women who hate men”, will only result in ALL MEN STAYING AS FAR AS POSSIBLE AWAY FROM ALL WOMEN of the ethnic, racial, gender, religious or “social class” that advoates for protection for their “class” based on what they think people said, or worse what they think the “group” always says.

Diversity Gal I have told everyone on this blog so many times what “real” racism is. BY LAW, it is any privilige, prejudice or discrimmination that gives one identified racial, gender, religious, ethnic group LEGAL political, or legal social advantage over another, or power over another racial, gender, religious, or ethnic group whether a defined minority OR majority, the power to oppress that group USING A DIFFERENT SET OF LAWS that are not applied the same to “ALL” INDIVIDUALS. THIS is very different than free speech, because it has to VIOLATE LAW to be considered by our legal system as “real” racism.

Good God, can’t you all just look at an old thread or something? The problem with ‘racism’ is: It really exists. However, if it turns up under every rock, then when you have real issues with racism, no one even notices because we have all been so desensitized.

I feel like we are beating a dead horse. I know people who won’t even come on this blog because they claim that is all they read about. Frankly, they are bored.

I apologize for being blunt, but geeez. If you all want, email me. I will put up a thread on racism, but only on the condition that you all keep it on that thread.

I want you to put up a thread that shows how much damage “illegal” immigration causes. I’m not bored with that even if others are because other than the financial state of our nation that is the only major issue harming my family’s general welfare in my community. And because it continues to harm my family in my community by making my community more and more impoverished, with more and more standard of living decay, it is the only issue on this blog other than the support given to “illegals” by others who are trying to call removing illegal aliens from our country “racism”, that I keep pointing out “real” racism (To Pinko or Shellyb or others who have it wrong) and to make comments to advocate against those who associate themselves with “racial, gender, ethnic, or religious” groups and want some special financial benefit for that, by changing our laws and our constitution to favor “minority class” rule. THAT. I get upset about too because it directly affects the “individual” rights of my family, and because these “new age” laws do not protect my family from those seeking special advantage and privilige by “minority group” advocacy to change the law (8A, protected class,etc) in their favor, benefitting only their “group” and giving them minority group political POWER. This is Aparthied, this is Jim Crow, all over again and I will not let it happen or undermine the protection of majority needs and “individual” rights protected under a social construct called DEMOCRACY.

So if you don’t want to hear it, ban free speech from your blog, or “cyber-bully” people into never saying the truth about what upsets them about political advocacy on this blog, especially when it is so one sided.

Michael, I don’t have time to do that. The racism offer did not involve work. Isn’t there something over on bvbl you can find? Surely Greg isn’t falling asleep at the switch.

It sounds like you and SA both have the same complaints. Am I reading that right?

Well, geez…sorry y’all. You know, sometimes something said on a thread leads in another direction. Sometimes we go back to topics discussed before and talk about them. It seems only natural to me, but I get the picture that it is not appreciated. Sorry for asking the question and causing all the hubbub.

I do want to say this…I’m sorry that others are bored with the conversation here, or are just offended by the use of the term racism. They are welcome to have the floor and I’ll back off.

Have a good weekend:)

I am grouchy this week. Would you all like a thread on racism? If yes, email me and narrow it down a little and I will gladly do it. Just please nothing that makes me think.

@Moon-howler
“I feel like we are beating a dead horse. I know people who won’t even come on this blog because they claim that is all they read about. Frankly, they are bored.”

We are, MH. I have my stuff about racism–definitions et al- posted on my own blog. I have no desire to open a thread about it here. If people stop asking me, I will stop responding. I will also try to ignore it–something that is difficult for me to do.

I tend to over-communicate because I keep thinking if I say it in a different way, people will “get” what I am trying to say. They don’t. So it’s best to just leave it alone.

Diversity Gal I welcome your comments. They are usually very polite, represent your views and provide me a means to offer a balanced debate that helps all of us understand the world better with more information rather than less.

Moon it is OK to be grouchy once in a while, I just wish you picked topics that offer more neutral viewpoints or occassionally showed both side of the debate better. I would not have to work so hard to explain why I disagree.

I have a very good topic for you but don’t know where to put it, that should not take much research. I’ll dump it on the latest blog and you can copy it to a new thread if you wish.

This topic is very important…The DOJ justice committe congressional review yesterday with the attorney general announced that Justice department now has 2100 cases of MORTGAGE fraud under investigation (lying on forms, misrepresenting income, brokering to target ethnic groups, and illegal immigrants who falsly made statements of credit, address claims, and creditworthyness, and of brokers and insurance companies who falsly misrepresented the ratings of high risk loans to investors and hedge funds, and as I told everyone before DOJ and FBI is digging deeper into why the housing market collapsed, who caused it, who profited, who was illegal and fraudulent and who was to blame for our entire economic meltdown. I am happy to see the truth come out and justice be exercised on people who profited from all of our misery.

Related to that…Michael Greenberg (professor of economics), had the most crystal clear explaination for why the derivatives market is “fraudulent, needs to be banned, is unethical, and places our entire ecomomic stability and current woes in the hand of “casino gamblers” who bet that “illegal” immigrants and others who obtained fraudulent mortgages, whould not pay them and would default. The $167Billion dollars spent in TARP money actually went to these “criminals” who held the “vapor paper” and expected bernanke and geitner (and earlier paulson, regarding his buddies at Goldman Sachs) to have the American taxpayer cover the “gambling losses, dollar for dollar. That loss is why we are in this economic meltdown…
Every American should understand this and be outraged enough to demand that derivatives trading, and the concept of selling short, SHOULD BE BANNED AND MADE ILLEGAL. Derivatives and selling short, then marking the gain of that “bet” to market, on the institutions daily balance sheet,that something bad happens (like a homeowner defaults) they then profit on other people’s losses and misery and conspire to drive the market down (and GM into bankruptcy) by “betting” it will fail, when they own nothing of capital in any of the assets these derivatives are based on.

Obama is trying to “fix this” but he needs all of our political help to get OUR MONEY BACK FROM THESE CRIMINALS THAT STOLE IT FROM US, and put it back into middle income wealth and the economy. It is the losses of these “bets” being required by contracts to be paid, that caused companies to collapse, companies who did not have capital to gain more income and capital to cover the “loss on their bets”, TO FIRE LOW INCOME and MIDDLE INCOME employees, while pocketing EXECUTIVE BONUSES.

Now write that thread and you will be doing our entire country a big favor. I can then add the details and convert fraudulent and covert financial geek speak to average American speak.

@DiversityGal
Thank you, DG! I appreciated the question. I wasn’t referring to you in my previous post, BTW. I was talking more about people who keep bringing subjects up from past posts. They use past posts to bash current posts, which makes no sense. Then when they do that, I repeat myself. See how that goes? It’s tedious, at best.

@Happy Harry
“For a rich white SAHM, I’m not so sure that your intentions are a pure as you claim them to be.”

LMAO!

Okay, Harry. Keep making those ass-umptions.

This is also the reasoj why we have high gasoline prices, low gasoline pices and then higher gasoline and food prices rising again. People are placing “bets” that the economy will get worse, and buying more insurance to cover losses that will then pay them 3 to 1 odds, without them even holding a single asset of capital, if that capital (our homes, cars, gasoline, food) is made more expensive and we suffer financial losses and lose more jobs.

These crimninals who create the vapor papr derivative products and hedge funds that allow this (they make 100 billion dollars per year), need to be arrsted and pput into jail for the misery they cause on all of us, but they pay off our congressmen to make laws that hurt us and help them steal even more (Geithner, Bernanke, Cris Dodd, Barney Frank, etc)

Sorry about the spelling (I don’t use a spell checker), and type fast becuuse I have too many other things to do…

The world-wide economic “sucking hole” caused by the pervasive “gambling” using the derivative market, short selling, SIV and CDW insurance derivatives (promises to pay if people lose homes and default) and to conspire (with key government officials) to make even more profits if they can convince congress, Fannie May execs, and Freddic Mac execs, and ethnic-centric brokerage companies to target illegal immigrants, and former illegal immigrants, and low income poor people and to commit financial fraud by “ignoring” and encouraging reporting and credit FRAUD on mortgage applications, look the other way and get as many people of poverty as possible to buy homes(who are guaranteed to default on 50% of the ARMS, so short sales and insurance derivatives will make HUGE profits). If investors and bankers can be encouraged to sell a significant number of 8A mortgages, then the losses on those mortgages WILL CAUSE GAMBLING DEBTS OF 4 TRILLION DOLLARS TO BE PAID to hedge fund investors in thse derivative products.

This is not real economics, it is thievery…

Not CDW, CDS credit default swaps, or insurance promises to pay out Gambling PROFITS to hedge fund investors (At Goldman Sachs, AIG, Bear Sterns, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan, etc, etc) if a homeowner losses his home.

Thievery and gambling economics 101:

If I buy a home, I put up Cash (downpayment capital), and agree to pay interest on a promise to pay note, in return for the right to “borrow” or “rent” the home from the bank. My “promise to pay” note is backed by the capital value on the market of my home, if and when I chose to sell it. So I have a capital interest and “risk” of loss of the home if I do not pay my “promise to pay”.

The bank used to withold “capital” or cash, to cover their potential loss of monthly income if I stopped paying monthly payment, and could sell the home to recover their “investment”. In 2000 however, congress allowed the bank to buy “insurance” from an insurance brokerage house (CD
S) credit default swap, so they no longer had any risk if I defaulted. They could then make loans to anyone (no money down), commit fraud and sell the risk AND the promise to pay to brokerage houses. The more “illegal immigrants, former “illegal” immigrants and 8A loans they could encourage fraud and false reporting one, the more MONEY at high interests rates they could make WITH NO RISK.

Brokerage houses could package these “promises to pay”, falsely and illegally call them “low risk” investments, when they were actually a mix of low and high risk investments and sell them in two ways, one to investors who wanted the monthly payments and the debt to be paid (the holders of my loan), and the second to hedge fund investors who “borrowed” my loan paper without MY APPROVAL or KNOWLEDGE, gamble or bet that I would “default” and then after taking a profit from my misery and loss, give the paper back to the “investor” who held my loan and tell them they had to pay the “gambling loss”. Worse, the investor who held my promise to pay, in order to hedge his bets against losses, bought credit default swaps, or insurance that promised to pay him for my loss, if I defaulted, and if so he would then profit. Not only was the investor who held my loan allowed to buy insurance against my loss (because he actually had a stake in the capital vale of my home at risk), but an UNLIMITED number of other hedge fund investors, who had NO CAPITAL AT RISK, or even had any connection to my “promise to pay” could “gamble” that my mortgage default would happen (like gambling it will rain, or gas prices will go up) and buy 4 Trillion dollars worth of those credit default swaps as “insurance product” DERIVATIVES or GAMBLING vapor paper. If I defaulted, they ALL profited, IF I paid my mortgage, then the ones who bought “long” profited. Either way someone else profited from my misery and my loss. When 50% of the ARM mortgages issued in 2006-2007 defaulted, the US suffered an economic meltdown, because the people who promised to “cover” the gambling losses, and gambling winnings, had no captial (cash), reserved to pay the losses or gambling debts. These companies, Bear Sterns, Leiman Brothers, AIG, etc, had to mark these “gambling” loses to market (daily balance sheet, because they held derivative vapor paper), went bankrupt, and begged Poulson, later Bernanke and Geithner, to BAIL them out, pay the gambling LOSSES with taxpaper money so they could keep their bonuses, exhorbitant salaries and not go bankrupt from “gambling at the race track”.

Again this is not economics, it is thievery from the unsuspecting American public (not smart enought to figure it out), and NEEDS to be made illegal, and the public NEEDS to demand the MONEY BE RETURNED TO INDIVIDUAL TAXPAYERS.

This derivative and short selling concept should be made illegal so we never suffer this misery again, while 1% of the nation gets filthy rich from criminal activity.

The $167Billion TARP bailout money did not bailout AIG or keep it from failing, just allowed one fraudulent insurance derivative division that had run up billions of dollars of debt, pay ALL of these gambling insurance derivative holders (however many thousands of criminal gamblers there were) whose gambling winnings demanded payment of the “bet” that I would default. They did everything they could in their power and influence over congress and the market to make sure as many people as possible who could not afford homes, bought and defaulted on homes, so they could profit from losses and “short” positions that profited from OTHER PEOPLE’s MISERY.

Michael, Do you suggest we let banks fail? I sort of feel like the horse is out of the barn now. I would like to see all the funny money business stopped.

Posting As Pinko :
@Moon-howler
“I feel like we are beating a dead horse. I know people who won’t even come on this blog because they claim that is all they read about. Frankly, they are bored.”
We are, MH. I have my stuff about racism–definitions et al- posted on my own blog. I have no desire to open a thread about it here. If people stop asking me, I will stop responding. I will also try to ignore it–something that is difficult for me to do.
I tend to over-communicate because I keep thinking if I say it in a different way, people will “get” what I am trying to say. They don’t. So it’s best to just leave it alone.

Actually, look at post #19 – NO ONE was talking about racial profiling until YOU DID. YOU CONTINUALLY BRING IT TO THE CONVERSATION. Go back and look. Nobody asked for your crack pot definition until later on. You mentioned it first. You have this strange obsession with calling everyone and everything racist. I think the lady doth protest too much.

Posting As Pinko :
@Happy Harry
“For a rich white SAHM, I’m not so sure that your intentions are a pure as you claim them to be.”
LMAO!
Okay, Harry. Keep making those ass-umptions.

Kiss your kids with that mouth? Nice. What do you deny? Do you deny that you are a SAHM? That you get to spend your day blogging about weight loss and fat loss surgery instead of having to work? That you are white? That you have privilege to live in an area that doesn’t have overcrowded housing? That the school your children attend isn’t predominately a minority school? Do you live in a neighborhood where your neighbors don’t piss on your lawn, openly drink in front of children and cat call women and teenage girls? Are there houses all around you in foreclosure?

Harry, the Immigration Resolution was fixed a year ago. The county is no longer putting our officers at risk of being accused of racial profiling. The BOCS is no longer dominated by Corey Stewart/Greg Letiecq/John Stirrup. All three have been discredited. If any of this is upsetting to you, you can blame those three every bit as much as you might blame anyone on this blog. More over, the people on this thread are no threat to you. Anyone who is willing to read 166 comments (I have not) already knows all there is to know about the policy, who wrote it, who pushed it, and who overturned it. You have nothing to gain by your nastiness.

HH, it’s probably a good idea not to let personal issues arise on the blog. What Pinko does on her blog should not be discussed here.

Now would someone please tell me what a SAHM is?

WHWN, I am not as confident as you are about who might still be overly influencing county government. While I agree that the Immigration Resolution has been neutered, I am not ready to say that the three folks you named have been neutralized in any way. I hope you haven’t been lulled into a false sense of security.