AntiBVBL

I am particularly proud of our county having the guts to do that which the Feds have been unable or unwilling to do! I am very proud that our BOCS didn’t just sit back on its rump and say “oh, it’s a federal problem”. Our county has only suffered reputation damage to those whose opinions are without value to begin with….so I fail to see the problem.

Hmmm, interesting comment from Slowpoke. How do you determine the opinions that have value? Are they the ones that agree with yours? What’s your criteria, Slowpoke?

George E. Tita, an associate professor of criminology, law and society at the University of California at Irvine, said the charges against illegal immigrants are, in part, due to their circumstance. They can’t get driver’s licenses and often can’t get legitimate work, so arrests for prostitution and driving without a license are to be expected, he said.

“If you can’t find a legitimate job, you’re going to enter the underground economy,” Tita said. “It’s really easy to create some sort of moral panic or demonize some sort of group when you have a couple of high-profile murders. . . . . Illegal aliens are like the rest of us in the sense that there’s a distribution. . . . There’s a lot of good people, and then there are some people that are not so good.”

My favorite quote. Boy, if PWC doesn’t epitomize the false hysteria created about the “general lawlessness” I don’t know what does. I am wondering how Corey plans of implementing the premise of his negative hypothesis regarding the resolution working because there weren’t alot of illegal immigrants charged with crimes. HUH????? Maybe, just maybe Corey, it’s because the hysteria was false and unsubstantiated except that losts of latino people had moved into PWC.

Yep, that’s it, Firedancer! I’m not going to pretend…..but that’s the funny thing about opinions, isn’t it? And it works both ways, too! I wouldn’t expect my opinion to matter to, say, NCLR. I was there at the marathon BOCS sessions, and I heard folks say their friends from Maryland called us all kinds of ignorant names, and I mused to myself that such a thing would never happen to me.

Professor Tita, perhaps for want of clarity, seems to give illegal immigrants one option, to enter the underground economy. He doesn’t seem to be able to see the other obvious choice of deciding that entering another country illegally might have been an ill-informed idea and to proceed home where these “underground” problems don’t exist! And we’re still not getting the joke of saying “not all illegal immigrants” commit crimes, overlooking the “illegal” part. There are reasons they call them “illegal immigrants”….because they’ve all committed a crime. 100%, that is. And I’ll even give “there’s no illegal person” argument, because there sure IS such a thing as a person’s illegal presence!

Slow, I think Professor Tita just acknowledged that that illegal immigrants do enter the underground economy if they find no other way to support themselves.

Also, let’s comare someone who entered from Mexico illegal, or didn’t renew their TPS in time, or an Salvadoran woman who joined her husband here on a TPS without documentation, or some Irish bartender who just didn’t go home at the end of 3 months. Those are rather minor crimes, now aren’t they? Let’s compare those crimes to embezzling, rape, arson or murder. Who would you want to live next door to? That old ‘they are already criminals’ wears thin with me because it is getting so old.

I also want to point out that not all of the prostitution cases in PW Co. were Latin Americans. I certainly hope no one is going to pick that one up and run with it. Some of the prostitutes arrested were those who must have overstayed their visa since I can see no way else for them to have gotten here.

Interesting group of people Jonathan Mommolo decided to interview. This is why I felt it was going to be fun to sit back and watch this one. Anti voiced its opinion a week or so ago.

And speaking of those black velvets, they sure have provided a great deal of entertainment lately. I love the hypocrisy, especially of the fearless leader who had a fit about 7-8 months ago when some cut and pasting was done over on his place. However, it is fair game to do it to anti and to have such a dastardly deed pasted into the annals of the blog.

Ah yes, it’s a fun watch….

Debate? It’s really not much of a debate. Two sides picking and choosing facts that support their pre-drawn conclusion. The article mentions one Alan Wessol. His opinion is not at all influenced by the actual results. He’s just going to believe whatever he wants to believe despite facts. If a fact supports his opinion, then it’s “See. I told you so.” If a fact doesn’t support his opinion, then he’ll make excuses like “crimes committed by illegal aliens are underreported”.

Moon-howler :
That old ‘they are already criminals’ wears thin with me because it is getting so old.

And how is “they’re just here doing the jobs Americans won’t do” holdin’ up for ya?

I was amused by this article as well, M-H. Particularly the puzzlement of some of the HSM faithful.

“These numbers can’t be right!” said brainwashed cult member R. Empty Vessel. “We were told that the illegals were all criminals, and that all Hispanics were illegals, and I see Hispanics every day.”

I think any sentient adult reading this article will conclude that statistical data and intelligent analysis has now overwhelmed and negated the usual Corey Stewart and “Help Save Manassas” fear propaganda.

But in Stewart’s defense, it is difficult if not impossible for him to resist offering a misleading and/or illogical defense of the county’s costly immigration policy in light of the damaging statistical data recently released. Were Stewart to have somehow managed NOT to be quoted in this article, it would have appeared as if he was admitting responsibility for the grave failure in leadership that was the Immigration Resolution.

If not for these embarrassing statistics, I expect Stewart would have kept his promise to stop touting right wing social issues and focus instead on pocketbook issues that actually fall within our county’s jurisdiction.

Slow, that one is wearing thin also. I really don’t care much for repeated sound-bites.

WHWN, CS can’t help himself. He sees a mike and out comes the gun to shoot himself in the foot. Are there pills to make him stop doing that?

This article is a lot better than what we used to have a year ago, where Corey Stewart’s lies got first billing and Chief Deane’s very polite contradiction of Stewart’s lies were buried in the middle somewhere. But it puzzles me that the reporter quoted Donna W. as if she were NOT one of the most fanatical GGG’s (Gospel Greg Groupies) in the county. Is this reporter a new hire or something? Doesn’t he know who she is?

Well, Slow, at least I know you were being cynical. I guess you’re right. It does run both ways since I certainly unconsciously devalue certain opinions.

To everyone, at least those whose opinions are the same as mine about undocumented immigrants:
I recommend that you all see the movie, “Sin Nombre”. I saw it last night, and was in tears at the end. Because I am naturally sympathetic to their situation, I found it overwhelming. I just don’t want to listen to crap blaming the “illegals” for being so poor that they see no other remedy but to endure extreme danger in search of survival, from a neighbor who has thought nothing of exploiting them when convenient and in national interest. Those who proclaim love for humanity on this holy day ought to be more concerned about working to fix the inequities that cause poverty and hopelessness, and young people to join gangs. We are all LUCKY to have been born in the U.S. or to be here now, and should not be despising those who don’t have our good fortune.

@ Firedancer

We are all LUCKY to have been born in the U.S. or to be here now, and should not be despising those who don’t have our good fortune.

Those are very wise and decent words to ponder, Firedancer. I think they are especially poignant this weekend since 2 major religions both celebrate holy days. Both of these religions hold, as a major tenent, the thought: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If we could all live by those words, wars would be over, violence would cease, and we would all be much better human beings.

@Firedancer
That was beautiful Firedancer, thank you. On this day, and really every day, we should all work to help our fellow human being.

“There is much good in Prince William County. There is much to crow about. However, the Immigration Resolution isn’t one of those things. It caused dissention amongst residents and brought an undesirable focus on our county.” AMEN!

For what it’s worth, here were my comments on WAPO:

———————————————–

Here’s the problem: 287g probably works, but the original version of the resolution put us on the map as a bunch of racist, money-wasting fools. When that happened, many residents decided it was time to try to offset the negative results the resolution had.

The policy currently in place isn’t the one that originally passed. The original resolution exacerbated an already declining housing market as well as existing racism.

The intent always should have been to treat people fairly but get criminals off the street. By checking citizen status of every person arrested, and by refusing to target specific ethnic groups, our police can prevent racial profiling and work within the perimeters of the current federal system. Trying to handle a federal issue on a local level is socio-economic suicide.

I would like to see the negative ramifications of this resolution die. Unfortunately, until the federal government does something about immigration problems, and until local governments encourage federal change through positive action, PWC and other areas will continue to be affected, leaving yet one more excuse for racism and discrimination.

The damage has already been done, and dismantling the infrastructures that allowed this to happen continues to be an uphill battle.

But we need to let people know there is far more to PWC than the immigration debate, and we need to get that message out loud and clear.

That analysis makes sense to Pink. The Supervisors knew there were budget issues coming down the pike, many of them including Convington warned that we were extending our resources with this. Now, on top of being expensive, we know the immigration resolution has been a failure. There are those who called it ahead of time, and there are those who did not. You called it a head of time, and I don’t see any problem with someone who called it ahead of time being on one of these committees. That’s better than one of the koolaid drinkers.

**I meant to say your analysis makes sense to me.

TY, WHWN.

@Firedancer

And I would like to recommend “Border War” and “Border” both excellent documentaries, and I don’t mean documentary in the sense of the 9500 liberty, michael moore steaming piles, either.

FYI – Before we leave the discussion of high school dropout rates
for individuals in the Class of 2008 where Manassas was blasted
as having the highest rate in the area – 11.75%; please note
Woodbridge(11.5%), Freedom(12.7%), Stonewall Jackson(16.8%) and
Gar-Field(17%).(WaPo PW Section -4-12-2009).
“The report also showed more than 24% of Hispanic students in
Prince William dropped out.”
When you compare schools, compare apples to apples – cohorts to cohorts.

And I would like to recommend “Border War” and “Border” both excellent documentaries, and I don’t mean documentary in the sense of the 9500 liberty, michael moore steaming piles, either.

These are more appropriately regarded as documentaries about middle aged and older men who can’t accept future demographic reality. What an embarrassing thing to have your mid-life crisis played out on the big screen. Some men buy sportcars which at least helps the economy…but these guys put on their warpaint and run around chasing desperate people looking to put food on the table. This is now the definition of courage as defined by these white americans who’ve got too much time on their hands. And the fearsome invader they use as a foil in the glorious drama that is their story?…an exhausted, cringing everyday man asking for bit of water and some food and just to be left alone.

Has this blog completely lost it’s nerve?

A few days ago, the 287g program was being investigated by a congressional committee. Ample evidence was produced regarding it’s nature as an excuse to racially profile under the color of the law.

Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HXm6PyaJa4

and here’s Ray Tranchant racially profiling in front of the congressional committee when he tells a latino citizen sitting next to him to ‘Go Home!’ at the end of his testimony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRuEaIBMSa0

If the congress deems it necessary to hear testimony concerning 287g, perhaps this blog can find the courage too…

But you guys would rather post puff pieces about somali pirates.

Mackie, I watched both links. I thought the first one was extremely informative and the points were very well made. Thanks for sharing. But you didn’t have to blame anyone while you were at it. We all bring different perspectives and learn from one another even if we don’t always agree.

Also, Mackie, that first video makes a really strong case against 287g. In some ways North Caroline sounds worse than Prince William County even though the Immigration Resolution was a lot more radical.

I think the second video makes an even stronger case as you see the unabashed racial profiling right in front of the congressional committee. Ray Tranchant went even further in his testimony and called illegal immigrants ‘banditos’.

This is the kind of bigotry that proponents of 287g are hoping to unleash under the color of the law. How can anyone deny that?

Well, in the second video I feel sorry for the man. He was driven to racism by tragedy. Whatever side of the issue you are on, a single incident, or a single person’s offensive remark should not make or break an important policy decision. The testimony in the first video looks at the bigger picture. That’s why I liked it better. When did that happen?

Oh, never mind that last question.

I think it’s probably inaccurate to say this guy was driven to racism due to a bad experience. This notions ignores the fact that racism is all around us. It absolves us of responsibility. Even blacks absorb the racism around them and practice bigotry against other blacks, especially the darker skinned ones.

This man, like many others, has probably harbored racist beliefs, and now has found a socially acceptable outlet for them.

Sure, what happened was a tragedy but it doesn’t give him a pass. How many immigrants die horrible deaths trying to cross the border each year? And what of their families who never find out what happened to their loved ones. If this man had a tragedy, it is one in a sea of tragedies.

And make no mistake. The point of his story is not so much that a young white female died. That is not the point since young white females die all the time.

The unspoken subtext is that a young white female died at the hands of a dirty mexican. That is exactly the kind of thing that traditionally sparks the mob mentality. The idea is to figuratively lynch mexicans if not literally. People may not be openly calling for a literal lynching. For that, at least, we can be grateful. But what they will do is…nothing. Absolutely nothing as the rights of minorities are violated.

The instincts that made a Rosewood possible are still there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=472ZkFhGl0U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJR-liiw3Ms

Mackie :
These are more appropriately regarded as documentaries about middle aged and older men who can’t accept future demographic reality. What an embarrassing thing to have your mid-life crisis played out on the big screen. Some men buy sportcars which at least helps the economy…but these guys put on their warpaint and run around chasing desperate people looking to put food on the table. This is now the definition of courage as defined by these white americans who’ve got too much time on their hands. And the fearsome invader they use as a foil in the glorious drama that is their story?…an exhausted, cringing everyday man asking for bit of water and some food and just to be left alone.

Well, the good news is….with today’s pharmacology, there’s no reason why these symptoms can’t be alleviated. Ask your handlers at St. Elizabeth’s about Clozapine! My guess is you’ll find some peace with that.

And the funniest thing of all is to watch ShellyB swallow down anything Mackie feeds her. Birds of a feather!

Slowpoke, it isn’t nice to make fun of mentally ill people who really do need medication.

Incidentally, 287g can work if it’s implemented correctly.

Thought I’d share my latest from the Washington Post article. It has devolved into name-calling there as well.

It seems to me the anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigrant folks on this blog are facing two problems:

1) History is not on their side

2) The complexity of law enforcement and the reality of operating a government is not on their side.

Others have confronted them with the former. I have confronted them with the latter. To the former they respond with insults. To the latter they respond with lies.

This is why I suggest that we confront them with the realities and complexities of governing, instead of the tragedies and injustices of history.

Insults are difficult to respond to.

Lies are easy to respond to.

Local law enforcement requires a level of trust between police officers and the people they are sworn to serve and protect. Any good law enforcement officer knows he/she is sworn to protect minorities as well as the majority ethnic group. The Citizen Satisfaction Survey for Prince William County, sited in this article, shows that minority communities in PWC, particularly African Americans and Hispanics, have lost trust in the Police Department. This is a tell tale sign that they are less willing to report crimes, and less willing to share information with police, and less willing to serve as witnesses in crime investigations. That makes it more difficult for the police to perform their sworn duty: to serve and protect.

The fact is that PWC is nearly 50% minority. That means that a large section of the population has lost trust in the police force as a result of Corey Stewart and John Stirrup’s grandstanding on the “illegal immigration” issue, the media attention, and the appearance that the police department had been co-opted by the nativist extremist group that supported Stewart and Stirrup’s reelection in Nov. 2007.

As a result, not only has our crime rate gone UP, we also have a higher number of unreported crimes. Unreported crimes lead to more crime in general, because criminals know they can come to PWC, and if they victimize Hispanics, for instance, they are less likely to go to the police.

(This was already a problem long before the immigration hysteria of 2007 … in 2006 Chief Deane implemented his robbery unit in response to this tactic of victimizing Hispanics in robberies … this is one of the major factors why, in the robbery and assault categories, crime had continued to go down in PWC. No, Chief Deane’s Robbery Unit is not part of the Immigration Resolution, so the Immigration Resolution should NOT be credited for those areas were crime has gone down).

So, while it is effective to remind anti-immigrant extremists that American history is a history of illegal immigration, and that the United States is a nation of illegal immigrants … it just doesn’t get you nearly as far as confronting them with present day realities and complexities.

It was these realities and complexities that allowed the more moderate Supervisors on the BOCS, and the silent majority of citizens in PWC, to render the Immigration Resolution all but harmless, by removing the racial profiling element of the police mandate. The damage was done, of course, and that is why we have all the economic damage, and 50% higher taxes as I described below.

Taken together, the economic consequences and the negative effect on our public safety are the TWO biggest reasons why the Immigration Resolution was a failure in Prince William County. The Hispanic population did not grow in 2007 and 2008 as it had in previous years, but it did not significantly shrink either. And now it is growing again.

The Resolution therefore succeeded in only one of its goals, and that was to get John Stirrup and Corey Stewart reelected in 2007. This anti-immigrant exploitation strategy was supposed to be a blueprint for the 2008 Presidential race, but then John McCain was chosen as the nominee, a decent man, and a war hero, who had already learned the lessons I have described on this thread, and is too much of a patriot to inflict such damage on our nation’s economy and our public safety.

Slow, I too, was wondering where the resident racist was hiding. I think maybe now he’s out on bond or work release. With apologizes to Anesthesia, I did enjoy your humor slow.

WHWN, I would like to think that John McCain was chosen as the nominee in ‘08 because most of the Republicans who voted are decent and patriotic people, starting with New Hampshire.

The closing statement of your post reminded me of a statement by Defense Secretary Gates saying, imploring all Americans to “rise above parochial interests and consider what is in the best interest of the nation as a whole.” I wonder if this can be done on the immigration issue the way it is now being done on military spending (the subject of Mr. Gates’ quote).

I think there are a lot of people who are more interested in seeing the government help them take some sort of vengeance against people they see as invaders ruining our culture. Blinded as they are, these people are interested in blocking any solution that would be best for the nation as a whole. But as was the case when McCain was picked, the number of people who put parochial interests before the national interest is a very small part of the Republican party, not large enough to defeat McCain, and not large enough to defeat Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

Mackie: thanks for the description of “Border Wars” and “Border”. I get the picture.
Slow: if I ever get to see them, I’ll let you know my impressions. You can let me know what you think of “Sin Nombre”. Everyone I know who has seen it is profoundly moved, but then again, we are like-minded already.
WHWN: brilliant analysis above

Yes, Mackie, thanks for the reviews of Slowpoke’s favorite films. I can certainly see why they would appeal to him based on that. Ugh.

And I just reread it. That WAS a brilliant analysis. Hope you are getting a good response on WaPo.

I thought this was a debate about “illegal” immigrants.

287G targets and locates “illegal” immigrants that have committed crimes, and when it identifies them takes steps to inform ICE so they can do their job, to protect all of the rest of us from having those “crimes” comitted by “illegal” immigrants repeated (some 660 of them in this past year). I guess most of you don’t want these criminals deported do you? That doesn’t seem too smart or even rational to me.

Why do most of you continue to muddy the waters with crime statistics that are un-correllated with “ethnicities” and pretend that they in some way justify your arguments that we should support “legal” immigration because we are also fighting “illegal” immigration? Could it be because most of you have personal relationship reasons focused on supporting just your own minority or ethnicity self-interests? Every time I see people make this an ethnicity issue, I am acutely aware of the self segregation promotion and blatant cultural privilige racism that is at its core.

The nation is turning into a nation of “self-destructive” racial supremacists of the minority kind…

I would think that elimnating the national poverty and illegal behavior of all kinds contributed in large part by 12 million “illegal” immigrants would be in the greatest self interests of the nation. To continue to allow “illegal” immigrants to operate and exist in the nation without permission is to continue to increase poverty and decrease the national GDP, while ignoring law and promoting lawlessness.
Welcome to the new Americanism of “social disorder and divided class-based political structures” and say good-by to what used to be a “democracy” that took care of the majority of people instead of just 12 million “illegal” immigrants.

ShellyB :
Yes, Mackie, thanks for the reviews of Slowpoke’s favorite films. I can certainly see why they would appeal to him based on that. Ugh.

@ShellyB

[Read Completely Monotone]
Yes, Mackie. Whatever you say, I believe, Mackie. You only speak the unbiased truth, Mackie. Yes. Yes. Everyone is racist. Your rantings could never be anything but pure wisdom Mackie. Yes…..We….Can….

Slowpoke, you are too funny. I never noticed this sense of humor of yours! (Hey, I don’t have time to contribute much here, but I am a frequent reader, or at least skimmer)

You know what, I am a fan of Mackie’s too. I think he speaks the truth in a way that white people don’t want to hear.

Michael, I am in favor of deporting criminals, and I do understand that letting in the world’s poor increases the poverty rate in this country. I believe we do need to work to end the conditions that cause people to risk their lives to sneak into this country, because it’s an awful way to live. But to go on and on about the “illegals” as if they were subhuman? No way. That’s wrong too.

I had no idea that Slowpoke had become a fan of Mackie. Just goes to show that when people share ideas openly, sometimes the close-minded can be opened just a little bit. Mackie, keep at it. There is hope for Slowpoke yet!

Check this BurgerKing Ad out:
http://lauramartinez.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/texicanwhopper.jpg

Check out the little dude….AWESOME!!!

Here’s the video ad…..I’m peeing on myself laughing!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xr1VTuksQc

Michael, you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HXm6PyaJa4

I’d like to hear your response. This woman is Caucasian and yet she is concerned about upholding the Constitution, and protecting minorities from unlawful racial profiling. What do you think of her?

Slow, I’m not usually obtuse, but I don’t get it. Is it supposed to be a real commercial?

@Firedancer
Yes, it’s a real commercial for a Burger King product in Europe. It’s in the news right now. Apparently, Mexico isn’t too happy about it. Can’t imagine why!

@Slowpoke Rodriguez
Oh wow, that makes sense, because no way would that commercial seriously have been made here. I just tried to take another look and the link now says that it has been removed by the user. I guess I saw it in the nick of time. Thanks for keeping me informed about current events.

Firedancer, it is one thing to bring a perspective to the table. It is quite another to bring a consistent, generalized, racially tinged rant to the same table.

Should I share perspectives from a white point of view that perhaps a Hispanic would not understand and tell Hispanics that there is no way for them to get it? Is that permitted or is that considered racist because its from a white perspective?

I’m not saying “illegals are “sub-human”. I’m simply saying they are breaking the law and that is affecting all of us in VERY NEGATIVE ways. Enforce the existing law, and all of these problems associated with “illegal” immigrants go away.

What is so wrong with that?

Lucky Duck, with all due respect, WE HAVE gotten perspectives from a Caucasian point of view that a lot of us, including many Caucasians, cannot get our heads around. To me, that’s at the core of this issue.

I think Firedancer’s point is that Mackie is the only consistent poster on this blog who is a minority, and without him we can sometimes become a little, I don’t know, sheltered and homogeneous.

I agree with you that Mackie’s comments are often angry, even hateful. I wish he would not take it that far. I try to make the case to him from time to time. He does better when he is not ignored but instead listened to, so that’s what I try to do. I do the same with some of the people on the other side of the spectrum who sound equally hateful.

I fully understand why Mackie gets your goat. We’re just saying that there is a place for him on the blog.

Lucky, I thought of that argument even as I was typing. I’m aware of the perceived inconsistency. We’ve already gone round and round previously on the concept of “white privilege”. I don’t remember if Mackie has ever mentioned being black. But I don’t think a white person can tell a black person to “get over it” because we don’t walk in their shoes. So why am I sympathetic to that, but not to white people bemoaning the fact that Hispanics are taking over? I dunno. I guess because it doesn’t personally threaten me. I speak Spanish, my S.O. is Latino and I’ve been fascinated with the culture ever since I was 8 years old and had a friend from South America.

I suppose it’s all about one’s personal perspective and own sense of security. We’re only upset about that which we perceive as a threat.

Michael: I also don’t perceive that the majority of undocumented immigrants are affecting me in VERY NEGATIVE ways. Sure, enforce the existing laws but at the same time we have a responsibility to help our neighbors improve their quality of life since we have been meddling there since the last century.

Thanks ShellyB…

This video illustrates the heart of this problem and the attitudes and mistakes made by both sides of the issue. This lady is making the same mistakes and misguided assumptions about 287G that most of the people here are making.

I call it conceptual blurring (mashing two unrelated concepts together and assuming they are the same when in fact they are not.)

This lady correctly identifies that you can always find someone who is a racist in every community, and use that single person’s behavior to advocate that a law enforcement policy is the cause and effect of that behavior when in reality it is not. In other words racisim is observed, therefore 287G is a racist program, when in reality it is not.

Most people here make the same conceptual mistake (they have reasons to support their own race, ethnicity, or personal racial self interests instead of the law and the rule of law).

On the other hand the lady completely ignores the racist behaviors that she herself displays in making the 287g issue a racist and ethnicity issue, when in fact it is a program targeted entirely at people who have already broken the law, and are deported for breaking the law (a law in addition to the one they have already broken to be checked for immigration status in the first place).

It is the people who are most naive, that equate the need for law enforcement in communities with “racist” behavior, instead of seeing the bigger issue, the fact that people who are allowed to remain in the US will continue to harm even more “victims” if they are allowed to stay.

That is why I feel compelled to educate people that if you make any of this a racial, ethnicity issue, you are a racist, either a minority racist or a majority racist, it does not matter, all are equally at fault and equally racists in their approach. If you cannot conceive of this as a law enforcement issue that does not involve race or ethnicity at all (except that it brings racists out of their closets from both minorities and majorities), then you are unable to intelligently argue the larger issue of what is best for the nation, and what is best for the majority of the people, instead of just what is best for 12 million “illegal” immigrants.

ShellyB mackie is a racist and he admits it, and you side with him?

ShellyB, We have a responsibility to help our “legal” neighbors. We have a moral responsibility to our “legal” neighbors to prevent our “illegal” neighbors from harming them, creating more poverty around them and continuing to spread minority racism as “illegals” self-segregate into racially prejudiced “apartheid” communities and politically racist anti-majority hate groups.

Sorry the previous comment was for Firedancer… I believe we have misplaced our loyalties and responsibilities to help the wrong people, and protect the wrong people from the law.

Firedancer and Shelly B…please don’t mistake my comments as seeing a “threat” (Firedancer’s word). What got us here in Prince William was not treating people equally and dividing us by race and ethnicity. So if it is wrong for a white person so “generalize” about the newest minority to arrive (for example – why are all day laborers Hispanic? ergo are all Hispanics day laborers?) Why do both of you accept racist statements from others? Firedancer’s answer of “I dunno” doesn’t cut it. And Shelly, my goat is not gotten. I like to deal in facts, not generalizations, name calling or racially based ideas.
By the way Firedancer, my Spanish gets me by just fine.

Michael and Lucky Duck, thanks for your thoughtful responses. I see your point, Michael, that just because some police officers abuse the federal powers granted them by 287G, it doesn’t mean that it is a bad program. Or that all police officers will do this.

But I don’t think she is making that point. It think she is saying that, in these particular North Carolina counties, you have an instance were racial tension and even racism led to the implementation of 287G. So it is happening that 287G is being abused there. People are being racially profiled as a way of sort of letting people know their place. And this is happening to legal citizens. Americans like anyone else except they have darker skin. I just don’t like that. That’s why I thought the woman’s testimony was compelling. It brings the other side of the equation into focus.

In PWC, we have always supported 287G because Chief Deane was the one who recommended it. We did not like the Immigration Resolution, because it added the negative elements that have happened down in North Carolina to something that would have worked just fine without it.

Anyway, now we see both of the two things we have to balance. We know that we want to do background checks on anyone who ends up in jail. But we also know we don’t want police abusing the implied directive of 287G to racially profile people, and pull them over for bogus reasons in order to check their status. This is exactly what we needed to protect against in PWC when the Immigration Resolution came along.

Lucky Duck, all your points are good points. I learn a lot from your comments, and on the whole I learn a lot more than from Mackie’s comments. Because I already have an idea how minorities feel about such things as racial profiling. I’m just saying that Mackie is not someone we should just trash and never listen to. Even if you disagree with him 100 percent, if you refuse to listen to him and always trash him, he will not be any more your friend. He will probably be more your enemy though, and would good would that be?

Shelly B., I’ll just leave it with this.

When we accept racist comments from anyone without calling them out on it, we condone those views. Racial commments from anyone, white, black, brown, yellow or red are just wrong. Majorities can be racists, Minorities can be racists.

Letting them get away with it makes the rest of us wrong.

I have to agree with Lucky Duck. However, I also see what Shelly is saying about people who have been on the receiving end of racial profiling. I hear from friends, trustworthy law abiding people, who have found themselves being profiled, for no reason other than their outward appearance. But these people also do not lash out or generalize to all white people like Mackie often does, on that basis, he simply discredits any valuable point he might have made.

Lucky Duck, what does “racist” mean anyway? What’s “racist” about Mackie, specifically?

When we accept racist comments from anyone without calling them out on it, we condone those views. Racial commments from anyone, white, black, brown, yellow or red are just wrong. Majorities can be racists, Minorities can be racists.
…I hear from friends, trustworthy law abiding people, who have found themselves being profiled, for no reason other than their outward appearance. But these people also do not lash out or generalize to all white people like Mackie often does, on that basis, he simply discredits any valuable point he might have made.

Everybody is a racist.

Including Lucky Ducky and Elena.

It’s not about whether or not you are a racist because we all are. It’s about who actually has the power to act on their racism and impose their abuse upon others. The group would be white people. Will that change in the future? Not likely, but if it does, we can address it at that time.

(Please keep in mind that Lucky is here as a government official. He has a specific agenda he’s responsible for promoting. This is part of the reason why he systematically attempts to discredit me. If you go back and look at the posts over time, you’ll see that when I post a comment, he very often posts a response very close behind, like clockwork. )

Mackie why didn’t you add you name beside Lucky & Elena? I do not think everyone is racist. That’s foolish. Racist is very harsh word, and gets thrown around way too often. I would say we all have prejudices, but NOT everybody is the R-word.

Now, YOUR comments discredit you, Mackie, and not Lucky Duck or anyone else. You do a fine job all on your own. Oh, and those stupid a$$ youtubes you post, don’t do help either. Of course, you want to blame anyone that you ASSUME is white.

We haven’t seen the R-word on this board for a few weeks. Now, here it is again, because you are back making your assumptions. I’ve seen several respond like clockwork to your comments.

Wackie Mackie, your racist views are exceeded only by your consistent complaining and whining. What is my specific agenda? Your paranoia?

Firedancer, you said you skim the blog and in doing so you may have missed that his posts blame whites for virtually every negative factor faced by any minority – and its not a view that I alone hold.

Perhaps you would see it better in print if everytime he posts a raced based commentary about Whites, I put into print a like minded, inane comment about Hispanics.

I think Chris just said what many people have been thinking.

I agree with Chris’ comments too. It was quite nice for a few weeks not to see the “R-word” tossed around this blog. If you use a word too much and apply it to far too many things, it becomes essentially meaningless and devalued. That is exactly what has happened at times on this blog in the past and could be in danger of happening again. People’s eyes start to glaze over when they see that word repeated over and over again.

Just wondering, Shelly, if you’ve ever been to NC and seen the problems there. My grandparents live in Charlotte and have lived there for the entire lives (mt grandfather is 88). They’ve seen their share of racism, specifically forced busing.

Because of the influx of illegal immigrants to Charlotte, it has become a different city entirely. My grandparents can no longer go to certain areas of the city because of the harassasment they get from day laborers. Houses on their street have 3 and 4 families living in 3 BR/1 BA houses. The noise and litter is unbareable. My grandparents have lived in that house for over 50 years and live on a fixed income and don’t want to move (and shouldn’t HAVE to).

What is your answer? Make the citizens leave so Charlotte can turn into little Mexico?

Anon, I know there are a lot of elderly people in my area who are intimidated by large groups of men hanging about. So I imagine it happens in NC as well. I understand completely where they are coming from. I am not sure of the best solution. But if the behavior is the problem and not the ethnicity, then it seems that any solution that leads to racial profiling is not the best. There are Constitutional issues involved, and even if you don’t support certain parts of the Constitution that get in the way of such things, you do have to admit that it is very costly for localities to fight Constitutional legal battles.

Chris,

Mackie why didn’t you add you name beside Lucky & Elena? I do not think everyone is racist. That’s foolish. Racist is very harsh word, and gets thrown around way too often. I would say we all have prejudices, but NOT everybody is the R-word.

Having prejudices amounts to the same thing. It’s not about being perfect. Better to recognize the reality that everyone is capable of racism and then ask, what now?

Certain people here try to paint me as racist against whites but that’s not true. They have a lot to answer for. It’s up to white people to recognize their special responsibility in this area. Or they can choose to not recognize it.

I’m a racist, you’re a racist, he’s a racist, she’s a racist, wouldn’t you like to be a racist too?

Mackie has now graduated from ‘resident racist’ to ’self admitted racist’. Congrats Mackie, I’m not sure where you can pick up your diploma but I have a few suggestions on where to put it.

a) I don’t really appreciate Mackie’s version of “bad, bad, white man”, but however I have to say that Mackie has NOT graduated into racism…TLC has done it for him… lets look at their love (via TV) of wacky white supremists. Lets take a Looooong look at the Duggars in (gasp) ARK, TLC’s main virulently procreating family, who weekly promote their beliefs from the “Church of the Holy Living Room”, and each and every month have yet another “special announcement” (pregnancy) that they send out via NBC. They have a TV show to promote Bill Gothard’s mission statement: procreate white people!!!!! I am a white person and a loose Catholic, but duh, even I see what they are trying to do.

Maybe Mackie and KG can get together and fight racism together. Oh, wait – KG was shot down tonight and her true colors (no pun intended) where shown.

@Slowpoke Rodriguez
Very funny.

@Mackie
I’ve NEVER tried to paint you or anyone else anything. Again, your words/post stand on their own merit, or lack thereof. You really should go back and read some of posts. I’m not one to villify others, and this includes those with opinions different than mine.

We are all member of the HUMAN race, Mackie. That’s how I see things. No you have contempt for humans of all races, backgrounds, religions, etc. ?
I look at individuals, and try not to lump people together. Clearly, we see the world differently, and that’s fine.

It’s not about whether or not you are a racist because we all are. It’s about who actually has the power to act on their racism and impose their abuse upon others. The group would be white people. Will that change in the future? Not likely, but if it does, we can address it at that time.

Are statements offensive simply because Mackie is the one who made them? I believe his statement above is accurate (if my blockquote worked-first time trying). We all harbor prejudices, even unconsciously, but many of us have been educated enough to recognize those feelings for what they are and not act on them.

I’m not sure what to say to that Firedancer… so, your saying that you agree with Mackie that ‘white people’ are the only true racists because they have power to impose their abuse? Wow, please tell me I’ve got that wrong.

I can tell you that there isn’t a racist bone in my body nor do I harbor prejudices. That’s the kind of backwards logic that only perpetuates racism in this country. I’m not sure how old you or Mackie are but to me it’s mostly older people that seem to feel that way. Maybe it’s the way you were brought up, I don’t know but I certainly wasn’t taught that kind of thinking and to tell you the truth it’s a little frightening that anyone would honestly believe that. Unbelievable…

Hello, Mackie isn’t saying that whites are the only true racists. He’s saying we all, as humans, harbor racist thoughts. Since we’re not actually defining what “racist” means, though, we don’t know if we’re all interpreting that word in the same way. He’s also saying that historically whites have had the power to actually act on these beliefs, to whit the very formation of this land being snatched from the indigenous residents as well as the institution of slavery.

I am saying this in a purely objective tone, nothing to get upset about as it is a statement of fact. I’m saying this from a sociological standpoint. You can take a whole class about this.

Hello, we all harbor prejudices, whether we–or you–admit them or not. Like I said, most of us keep them to ourselves and don’t act on them. For example, how many white people feel nervous at the sight of a young, black male in baggy pants walking down the street towards them? They might know they’re not supposed to feel that way so they don’t outwardly react or wouldn’t dream of saying anything about it, but the feeling is there. Another example: How many straight people make jokes about gay people? In particular, how many straight men make insulting comments about gay guys? That’s not racist, but that’s prejudice. How many parents, secretly inside, would have to have a mental adjustment if their kid dated someone of a different race? They might do their best to be supportive, but they’d still have to work on it.

Come on, hello, if you tell me there isn’t a racist bone in your body or that you don’t harbor prejudice against any kind of group or person, I believe you’re just not being honest with yourself. I’m not saying that you act on them, but you instinctively get a reaction.

ShellyB, the issue is not that racial profiling occurs in very limited cases (likely less than 1 officer out of 10,000 that commits this offense), but that a VERY few set of actual cases and mostly unsubstantiated testimony (believed as factual but is not factual as any personal testimony usually is when not under oath), is being used to provide unsubstiated proof that 287G should not be implemented, and that Illegals should be allowed to remain.

The problem is not 287G, the problem is the lack of law enbforcement on people who break the law, at ALL levels of government.

The majority population of the US (some 180-250 million people) are FURIOUS at the degree of corruption and greed in our country and the degree we are turning rapidly into a third world impoverished nation of self-segregating class structures all wanting a privilige only for their own ethnic, gender, religious or racial group, even if it means ignoring or breaking the law and hurting the vast majority of Americans with increased poverty, lower wages, fraud and lawlessness, all done in order to benefit and feel sorry for 12 Million “illegal” immigrants.

The “tea-parties” occurring around the country are a citizen uprising against ALL of this corruption and lawlessnes, that will continue to grow in anger and intensity (just as it did in the 1760s) over the corruption of the government, the corruption and ignorance of congress to take care of the majority, and the corruption of government at all levels of government and the financial/business sector, that benefits only the upper 1% of the richest in America and ONLY benefits the lower 10% of the poorest in America with free handouts. If you do the numbers on who benefits the most from OBAMA’s policy, you will find that some 250 billion dollars in infrastructure improvements will go to primarily to 45 Million illegal and formerly illegal immigrants who have made up the lowest income group, will benefit the most from ARRA and will continue to break and ignore the law in pursuit of personal greed.

SheelyB got it right…partly

“But if the behavior is the problem and not the ethnicity, then it seems that any solution that leads to racial profiling is not the best.”

The behavior is the problem. The solution is to target the behavior and not the ethnicity. This is what I have said all along.

HOW do you target the behavior of lawbreakers? You create and then ENFORCE a law that applies to everyone equally. For example the original 287G supporting resolution REQUIRED all police officers to treat everyone the same under the same law and to ASK EVERYONE about their legal status BASED ON THEIR BEHAVIOR IN BREAKING A TRAFFIC LAW, whenever they were stopped for a traffic violation. In addition IF they are arrested, a 287G mandatory “illegal” status check will be made at the jail.

The new resolution, now does NOT REQUIRE all police officers to treat everyone the same and they can ask anyone they wish what their legal status is based on their JUDGEMENT (or their beliefs) allowing them to stop people based on ethnicity alone (even though it is against printed police policy) or BEHAVIOR AND ethnicity if they CHOOSE to. If they choose to arrest those they pull over now because of suspicion of lawbreaking, then in addition to Choosing who they will pull over, they can CHOOSE who to arrest and who to let go based on their OPINION or suspicion of lawbreaking. IF they are arrested, a 287G mandatory check will be made at the jail.
I think it is far more likely that racial profiling WILL and DOES occur at a slighly higher rate with the new resolution than with the old one. It is really a question of how much you trust the police (the majority of them) to do their jobs professionally.

The bottom line is in both cases “illegal” immigrants are still being arrested if suspected of being “illegal”, and are definately set for DEPORTATION hearings if they are discovered to be “illegal” immigrants at the jail.
I will not be happy until all 12 Million “illegal” immigrants are efventually forced to go back home (because they canot get any jobs here), and force ALL who have broken our laws, have harmed all of us, have increased our poverty, have created an ethnic class that wants more privilege than the rest of us, have created an ethnic political movement that is undermining democracy in America, and has caused significant negative and declining standards of living in every community some 45 million formerly illegal and currently illegal immigrants have moved into to be held accountable for those injustices they have inflicted on the rest of US by their very “illegal” behaviors.

Firedancer I believe your alanysis is one sided. How many people today, compared to 50 years ago have risen above racism and prejudice and treat everyone as an individual? How many “majority” ethnicities today look at all people as individuals rather than groups to be dispised and segregated under different laws.

Contrast that to the growth of MINORITY HATE GROUPS, far left radicals that support socialism over democracy, lawlessness over civil peace and prosperity, growth of “illegal” immigrants who do not believe in democratic values and if they do, do not respect anyone other than their own ethnicity? Contrast that to the growth of MAJORITY HATE GROUPS, far right religious radicals (only caring about their own religion as a GROUP), rather than respect all “individuals”.

We as a nation made progress agaist prejudice from 1950 to 1990. From 1990-2009 we disintegrated law, ignored law and increased political corruption, and as a result of this and corruption, and majority hatred by the minority in congress, we are reversing this progress and are headed back into segregated classes, segregated laws, widespread greed and corruption by minority interest groups (black, hispanic, muslim and christian radical elements of the society) and increasingly see majority oppression by ethnic, gender, religious and racial minority political groups.

The anger about ALL of this is RISING in the majority US population (in tea parties) and it will continue to rise until wide-spread respect and enforcement of existing law reduces greed, foreign takeover of US interests, reduces poverty, and eliminates wide-spread social and political corruption.

My post was not meant to go against Mackie and his belief system. Yeah I know I’m white, I own the “guilt”, yeah I’m the problem, so to speak.And yes, i have a bone to pick with him. I posted what I did because I CAN…I can because I am white and religious person and i can claim that TLC is promoting a fundie, white supremist cult on their airways for the advertising dollars they may receive. See…even white folk can be aware of when they’re being used.

DB,
That is a pretty harsh statement against the Duggars. Now, personally, I don’t get the desire to be a baby making machine, however, that still does NOT equate to the rationalization that they are a “white supremist cult”. Please clarify if I have misunderstood your point.

My daughter tells me I failed pop culture 101. Will DB and Elena please explain this Duggars stuff to me. I found them on the website. Why does everyone in the world know about this couple other than me?

Are these people on The Learning Channel? There is a major reason why this has probably escaped me. ewwwwww

yes, they are on the learning channel. It started out with “15 and Counting” I think she is going for an even 20. They seem nice enough, very well behaved, very religious. Personally, from my perspective, it seems like the older children do alot of the child raising. I remember the mom saying once, she has the new babies for the first three months, all to herself, and then the baby is paired up with a “buddy” to help care for them. Something about that just bothered me a little.

Gee, why weren’t there any “tea parties” during the 8 years of Bush?

The Tea parties are a good sign of the grassroots.

Really Mackie? Seems to me it represents the outreach of Fox News. Where was there outrage at Bush, his spending, his over reaching executive power, the “leaks” for political gain? Bush could do no wrong and Obama can do no right. At least CNN and other stations are critiquing Obama on several different points.

Elena,
The “white supremist” stuff comes from their very own “religious” Bill G. A whole bunch of “white Christian soldier” nonsense, combined with a “race” to populate the earth with good Christian soilders. Go on ja20.com and read all about “the race”. Add into the equation that women in his sect are required, that is REQUIRED to be submissive to men. As a part of the submission they are not permitted to be educated beyond their homeschooled experience. Their marriages are arranged at an early age. And what do they receive? Their very own television show. Each and every time a person in their family/sect gets pregnant, what do they receive? A spot on the today show. And don’t get me started on the whole “blanket training” thing which equates to a call to CPS. They are white supremists who go to El Salvador on a “mission”, and say such stupid things as “Backo out of the wayo” ON CAMERA, and then go on and on about how there aren’t people in the US that are nearly as poor as the farmer they visited. The farmer by the way had a huge crop of corn, 3 pigs, numerous chickens and roof over his family’s head. But according to TLC and the well informed Duggars, the family was living in abject poverty (of el salvadorian standards?). Maybe I shouldn’t be as mean in my opinion of the Duggars, but come on quit trying to get me to fund the emperors clothes already.