AntiBVBL

Wow. Confronted with the cold hard facts, I have to say I’d preferred it if Chief Deane, Dr. Fuller and the other experts HADN’T been right. It’s about as sad as possible to know we were led into this complete disaster for one person’s political gain. I say one person because I think Jackson Miller and John Stirrup would have won anyway.

Great analysis and great question Alanna. I hope that it wouldn’t be true that the other Supervisors are not changing course because they think only Corey Stewart will be held responsible on election day. I would want them to try to counteract the economic part of the disaster rather than letting us live with it.

I feel like Corey’s goose is cooked anyway. So I hope the Supervisors take some steps to improve our reputation. That would be the first step.

I wonder how the “rule of law” proponents will spin this?!

They will spin it like a top!!

The explanation is partly because of the economy. Of course, it always was. That’s why they came and that’s why they aren’t coming now.

I would like to see a presentation by Chief Dean and perhaps a sociologist breaking down the stats by ethnicity, income and location and crime type. That would give us a clearer picture of what’s going on here.

Either way, “the illegals did it” proves to be a logical error and a scapegoating technique.

Oh, please … What faux logic you people exhibit. This is a multi-variate problem. Home prices were driven extraordinarily high by speculation — people were buying three or four houses at a time and then selling them a few months later. This was harder to carry out in neighboring counties where prices were already much higher. When prices fell and speculation stopped, Prince William Co was much more unstable and therefore housing prices fell much farther.

I think you have to first understand that crime statistics are not “immediate indicators” of the conditions that cause crime to increase or financial situations to worsen. There are lead and lag drivers that eventually show up in statistics (well after almost everyone else starts to know something is different and wrong.)

First there is the issue of what constitutes “crime” and what “categories” or crime are the only categories reported in these statistics.

“illegal” immigration is a federal crime, housing an illegal alien is a federal crime, and transporting an illegal alien is a crime and yet, NONE of these crimes (that have increased enourmously in PWC in the past 5 years) are reported in these crime statistics.

I think before you can draw a “cause and effect” relationship, which may not be indicated in your assumptions, you first have to classify what “crimes” illegal immigrants do the most (document fraud, zoning violations, extortion, gang violence, identity theft, illegal driving, illegal voting, illegal tax evasion, illegally parking vehicles, loitering, peeing in the streets, stealing electricity, stealing jobs, etc.) are all NOTICEABLE CRIMES that are committed by “illegals” that have deeply upset this community, have GREATLY increased in the past 5-10 years and ARE NOT reported in ANY of your “quoted crime statistics”.

They do cause a general decrease in the standard of living in a community, largely caused by a large influx of “illegals” into the community, that is a “lagging indicator”, that precedes general deterioration and poverty in a neighborhood, that CAUSES a DELAYED increase in more serious crimes (theft, rape, shootings, gang activity, drug activity and murder) that are reported in these statistics. If citizens WAITED until only the most serious crimes increased in what used to be high standard of living neighborhoods, then we would be TOO LATE to save the community from collapse. The increse in more serious crimes, is a RESULT of a general decline in the standard of living, increased poverty, and undesireable “illegal” alien activity that has increased steadily in the past five years (eventually causing a rise in serious crimes at some point). Evidently NOW is the time these more serious crimes are on the rise as a result of the last five years of general decline in standard of living of PWC and influx of “illegal” activity into PWC over 5 years. It happens this way in the cities too.

The economic impact of mortgage defaults and reduction of the median family income, and over population growth CAUSED by 25 years of “illegal” immigration into the US, did not surface until mortgages were purchased in 2004-2006, and did not “DEFAULT” until 2007-2008 when large numbers of “illegals and formerly “illegal” families who make up the bulk of these mortgage products, falsified mortgage documentation, misreported income, and led bankers to believe they were capable of paying AAA rated securities and factual underwriting (false credit reporting and illegal underwriting practice prevailed instead by “illegal actions”)as ARM and HUD 8A candidates (get every minority ethnic person into a home policy) were targeted by ethnicity privileged 8A policies issued by HUD. These families then “defaulted” after one to two years, but the impact of what they did did not show up in the securities industry until Bear Sterns and AIG collapsed in Sep 2008, when creditors realized the number of “illegal” and formerly “illegal” families were defaulting in LARGE numbers, and very rapidly, indicating the securites they had insured as AAA rated certificates, were actually securities back by HIGH-RISK families that did not intend to continue payments and grossly mis-reported and over-estimated the growth of their financial futures and ability to pay future debt. Significant over-leveraging by these families way beyond their income means (illegally reporting lower income to debt ratios required by LAW), and unwillingness/inability to pay their debt, CAUSED the entire mortgage insurance underwriting and mortgage trading industry to collapse, and that took a year to surface, then in Sept 2008, the Global BANKING industry collapsed because it had overleveraged its assets by holding these fraudulent AAA rated mortgages (but actually illegal and un-ratable) and by not keeping sufficient capital reserves to cover these defaults. This CAUSED the ENTIRE world-wide Global Banking system to collapse, and now in 2009, that in-ability of both families and companies and banks to maintain sufficient capital reserve, is causeing a loss of 4.5 million jobs per year. NONE of that shows up immediately either (it takes 4-5 years to surface from the initial illegal activities of the illegal and formerly illegal immigrants who caused the greatest economic crisis of our lives in the first place.

To understand this you can’t just look at one year’s statistics, and you need to follow the “paper” trail and the entire process, backwards in time to understand the ROOT cause. 12 million currently illegal, and some 35 million formerly illegal families have caused a 25 year decline in economic standard of living to decline in EVERY community they have moved into, and EVENTUALLY these same communties after 5-10 years become gang infested, drug intensive, ethically corrupt, unlawful, and dangerous over a 5-10 year period. You have only to look at the last 25 years of the decline in Los Angeles, most of California, and other BORDER STATES to know this, and it does not happen ALL IN ONE YEAR’S SILLY INFERENCE REGARDING CRIME STATISTICS.

In fact no-one needs ANY crime statistics to understand the long term detrimental effects of “illegal” immigration into our communities, because they can look OUT THE WINDOW, and see it happen and happen worse every year.

@kelly3406

Kelly, the folks here don’t put much stock in logic, they only argue from emotion, which is why they rarely get things right. They can’t understand here that other factors such as economic conditions (that are happening in the whole country, not just Prince William) have an effect on crime rates. They would not comprehend that the most hardcore lawbreakers are the most difficult ones to get rid of and to keep from coming back. the only thing they understand is to blame the resolution for everything from the plummeting stock market to citing the resolution as a cause of the American Civil War. It’s fun to watch, though.

I never agree with Slowpoke but on this point I do agree. As more people get stressed and desperate you will see crime escalate. Hard economic times have an effect on the crime rates. In addition, hard economic times also have an effect on increases in child protective services.

If you love living like the third world, then just continue to “love” and encourage “illegal” immigrants more than you love your community standard of living.

If most of you persist in this stupidity, I have the resources to simply move to a wealthier, “non-illegal” immigrant community, and will tell you I told you so as you naively create the next “crime-infested, impoverished Southern California”. If you win and I don’t, I’ll simply just ignore you and move away to let you rot with your own stupidity.

Kelly and Slow, you lose credibility when you broad-brush with works like ‘the folks here’ and ‘you people.’ Slow, you have been here long enough to know that there are a variety of opinions here.

Slow, you know that we continue to dwell on this topic of crime because Corey Stewart keeps going all over the country telling people that crime was reduced by 20% after the resolution passed. (or the illegals left–depending on his audience)

He is pulling that figure out of his butt.

Micael, that was very impolite. I would prefer our posters not address others like that. We have a variety of opinions on this blog. We aren’t all on the same sheet of music, which is a good thing.

No one here thinks illegal immigration is a good thing, to my knowledge. However, many of us reject the solution offered by the Immigration Resolution. We felt it caused more community problems than it solved. The operative word is MANY OF US, not all of us.

Excuse me, Michael. My family lives in Southern California about 40 miles NW of Los Angeles. It is hardly impoverished or crime ridden. Talk about a broad brush. Don’t label all of Southern California that way.

Hey it is a big country. If you do not like it here move to the mid-west where there a wide open plains where no one lives. You can drive hundreds of miles and not see one soul. Sounds like a place you would like.

You know, it’s funny you mention that, because as I was writing that, I actually did think about you, and had a little twinge of “I’m actually including people in this who show reason”. Then you called me on it. So I have to say, you’re right about the broad brush thing, and I’m sorry for that.

That was aimed at moon-howler…I goofed and didn’t put it in the note.

MH,

With all due respect, this blog keeps hammering the Resolution for all ills as some have accused others of blaming illegals. I’ve asked this before and never get successful examples of how some of the problems attributed to illegal immigrants have been handled. Overcrowding is one example that to this day has no enforceable solution that I have heard. Our HOA has been trying for several months to enforce several rules that some home owners have chosen to ignore, and it is a time consuming and costly process with legal proceedings involved. Take that effort and multiply it by perhaps thousands throughout PWC, and you can see that there has to be a more efficient way to rectify these problems. The Resolution may not have been popular with illegal supporters, but with the exodus of illegals went the related problems.

Now here’s everyone’s opportunity to list problems and successful solutions that have been implemented with successful and timely results. I don’t mean suggestions, but actual cases. Remember, all Herndon was trying to do was remove people who loitered at a local 7-11, and you saw how involved that got!

Alanna, clearly, your husband’s best friend is the neighborhood’s nightmare. This is where neighborhood services needs to step in and take a look at how many people live in a townhouse. Its rude of him to load up a townhouse with however many workers he can load in for $200 a month. How can limited parking ever be fair with his attitude towards tennants?

I can’t imagine all of your ancestors in NYC having vehicles in a townhouse neighborhood. What you describe is a neighborhood over crowding issue regardless of immigration status and who would not object to that? Operating a “rooming house” in a residential neighborhood is against zoning regulations in Prince William County. Quite different from extended family.

Alanna,

I think your husband has made a bad choice for a BEST friend. This casts a poor reflection on him and you both. Perhaps this is why you tend to not see the problems that we see. With friends of this nature it’s easy to understand your support for people who exhibit otherwise unacceptable behavior.

Alanna,

I apologize, I misread the part where your husband’s friend wasn’t the owner of the townhouse. Oops! Never mind!

Second Alamo Zavala,
I bet you do not know who Zavala was! As a conservative, I don’t assume or jump to conclusions without investigating everything. SA, your comment and later apology is a common mistake of people of different opinions that are using our Conservative principles to conclude ideas that are sometimes unkind to people. You should read and think before you open your lap tap and write. Oops! I forgot that the First Amendment of our Constitution also allows stupid comments to be heard.

I love it when our resident Duecasters rant and whine that crime rates going up are NOT a good measure of the Immigration Resolution’s utter failure. So funny!!! Economic and housing market trends are NOT evidence of the negative impacts of the Resolution???? Too funny!

It wasn’t long ago that vauge estimations about “crime” and unsubstantiated suppositions about the economic effect of having immigrants around here was THE ONLY justification for the millions and millions of dollars we hurriedly wasted to fund this act of group hysteria.

Talk about hoisting them on petard!

Do you have to have a license to run a rooming house? If so, who oversees that kind of thing? Or does anyone?

@Posting As Pinko
No license required, and no oversight. Overcrowding will increase in this economic climate. Nobody should be fooled for one minute, that all that may have lost their home and/or job(this includes American citizens too) will be leaving PWC. They will have to move to more affordable places, and that often means sharing a residence to make the money stretch further. Those families that have school aged children will be the vast majority that stay right here in PWC.

Alanna,
My neighborhood is much different than it was 20 years or even 20 months ago.

Hey Conservador, at least I’m ethical enough to apologize when I discover I’ve made a mistake. I guess I’m just human so Excuuuuuuuuuse Me! God help you if I find you making a mistake…………

“No license required, and no oversight.”

That’s not good, IMHO. Now if there WERE oversight, unfortunately, I wouldn’t trust our local government to do it ethically and objectively. But I DO think there should be some requirements for landlords. Otherwise, no one has protection, not even the landlords.

I want to defend Second Alamo and Slowpoke. I cannot sit quietly by while the heartbreak of Duecaster is hung on them. They do not conduct themselves like that. They are free to voice their opinions here. And both will apologize if they err.

SA has some valid points. There are still neighborhood issues both with the immigrant community and with the non-immigrant community. Yes there are still rooming houses. Yes there are people renting different levels of one house…and lots on each level. Not all are immigrants. I am all for attacking this problem from an issue other than the Resolution.

Not to ask a dumb question, but does anyone really have a copy of the UPdated Resolution? I would like to know exactly what it says. I think maybe SA and I have the same question.

I agree Pinko. Landlords can be as irresponsible as they want. They can pack a house for as much as they can get.

How do we know there are fewer ‘illegals?’

SA:
Zavala fought for the independence of the Republic of Texas. He was the architect of the constitution of Texas, a mix of Zavala and Madison’s views. Unanimously elected Vice President of the Republic of Texas, Zavala was MEXICAN BORN. Zavala fought with the Anglos at the Alamo. There were many other Mexicans with Zavala also fighting for independence from Mexico. Many of Help Save Manassas members would call people like Zavala an illegal alien. I wish to know how his son and daughter will be called by HSM. Information and knowledge will give you better objectivity on the subject. I hope that people that use the brand Republican and Conservative used them in a positive way. I can sit and watch how people in the name of the Republican Party or conservative values incite exclusion or discrimination. Those are not the principles of Thomas Jefferson, Madison or any other Republican.

Conservador,

Thanks for the history lesson, now what’s your point? We are talking about people illegally entering this sovereign nation, and the problems that this undocumented (meaning we don’t know anything about their criminal or health background) group is capable of causing. I’m all for immigration when it is sponsored by this country, but not when it is illegally forced on the country, and then supported only because those entering are human beings. Simple as that. You’re right, exclusion is based on borders, and I’m all for it. The property you own has borders otherwise how would you know what is yours? Why is that such a difficult concept for some?

I tell ya’ what’s getting REAL interesting is the US/Mexico Border drug violence. It’s the most I’ve heard the border in the news in quite a long time. We talk about illegals invading our nation (and it’s true), but what’s going down there is no joke anymore!

SA and Slowpoke Rodriguez.
I don’t think the subject with me is about not wanting to protect our nation. I am all for legal immigration and protecting my country. What I don’t accept are the insults, bigotry and discrimination that some people on Blogs and especially on Black Velvet are using to describe illegal immigrants. That is not the way of a conservative and also not the way of our Founding Fathers. I can’t accept the bigoted behavior as a Conservative and as a Republican, and it is not acceptable, by any means as a Christian Conservative. This discrimination cannot be accepted. That is the distinction between people that criticize illegal immigration with bigotry and me. The very way the two of you have chosen your blogging names suggests that you are prejudiced against Latinos. You’re transparent about it.
In a previous subject I made a comment about the distinction between illegal immigration and the drug trafficking, gang related crime and the drug cartels in Mexico; Rodriguez you should read them. You can watch on Fox news a report on the subject. I know first hand the problem because, and I repeat, I have traveled to Colombia, Mexico, the Mexico/US border and I wrote an investigative paper in college regarding the war on drugs. Have either of you ever used drugs?
While many Americans are fixated on illegal immigration, we have real problems that may be more difficult and complex than immigration. Iran nuclear capabilities, Venezuelan ties with Russia, Cuba reviving relations with Russia, our national debt, and many others… The only subject of importance in PWC appears to revolve around immigration and nothing else.

@Conservador

An investigative paper in college, huh? flip me out!

Okay M-H, you are right. No one is a follower of Mr. Duecaster.

Well, I am sure Mr. Duecaster has some followers. Obviously the Gainesville supervisor must think pretty highly of him since he appointed him to a committee. He has some followers in HSM. I do not think that SA and Slow are followers though and I don’t think that they are like him in their discussion.

Conservator, I don’t think that you can necessarily assume that Slowpoke Rodriguez or Second Alamo are prejudice against Latinos. I think we can count on them disliking illegal immigration but cannot assume that they are prejudiced.

Let me give you an example. I have a friend who lives out in a remote area of Washington State. She has limited exposure to people who are not white. Probably her greatest exposure living in Alaska and Washington has been Native American. She is an older lady and every time she says anything me about blacks, she calls them ‘coloreds.’

I suck air every time she does this. I have tried to explain to her that this terminology is just not politically correct in todays times, regardless of what she grew up with. I can tell you, the lady is not prejudiced. She just uses language that you and I would consider inappropriate. She doesn’t know any better and she doesn’t live in an area that would positively or negatively reinforce her choice of words. Also, all Latinos are Mexicans when she talks.

I have given up correcting her. She gets angry and grouses about people always wanting to be PC.

If you heard her, you might assume she is prejudiced. I know better though….and one would be wrong to assume anything.

Fox News Channel now. Geraldo at Large from the border of El Paso & Juarez, Mexico. The number of murders, rape and kidnappings were unbelievable. Actually they were UFB!!

If anyone else subscribes to Time, there is a blurb on the number of guns sold in the US traced to Mexico and the steady increase over the last few years. In 2006 it was 2,100. In 2007 it was 3,300 and in 2008 it increased to 7,700. An Arizona gun shop owner is going on trial for knowingly selling weapons to buyers working for Mexican drug cartels. Apparently, 9 out of 10 guns recovered from Mexican crime scenes are traced to US gun shops. Now, that is UFB. Supposedly we are fighting the war on drugs, but apparently we are supplying the weapons. That’s just f’ing great.

It sounds to me like we need to change our border policy real fast. Allowing that kind of lawlessness to spill over into the United States will be a real bear to control. It is easier to prevent it in the first place.

I think Twindad was talking about our lawlessness going across the border INTO Mexico, as in our guns on demand culture arming the drug cartels. But yeah it would be nice if contraband wasn’t so easy transport either way.

ShellyB,

That is exactly it. Our wonderful “gun advocates” that don’t want to outlaw the sale of assault rifles because they are afraid their right to hunt a friggin deer, or walk around armed, will be infringed upon. Maybe they ought to discuss the “rule of law” with the operators of these US gun shops that appear to be supplying approximately 90% of weapons to Mexican criminals.

The last two posts are the pinnacle of foolishness. They are so backwards, I wouldn’t even know where to start. I’m guessing they were even typed wrong. I mean….wow.

Wait, I take that back about ShellyB’s comment that it would be nice if contraband wasn’t so easy to transport across the border. It’s more TWINAD that’s so screwed up. Walking around with assault rifles. Hunting deer with an assault rifle. TWINAD, you really don’t know the first thing about firearms, do you?

MH
I am not assuming anything. I am expressing what I think they are doing by using those bloggers’ names; they are clearly making fun of Latinos. I have Hundreds of Latino friends and their common perception of the Republican Party and the Conservative movement is that most conservatives and Republicans are not kind to other people. I am a conservative and a Republican and I’m a Christian; I’m not going to be quiet as long I see people attacking minorities with bigotry and exclusion from our society. There is something that we preach to people all the time and it is called “Personal Responsibility.” We have to take responsibility and act on the duty that we as citizens have. MH, I don’t pretend to be patient and allow misinformation or permit the attitude of, “well, he or she does not know any better,” and then give him or her a pass. I can’t allow that to be my motto while people are being pushed down, excluded, disrespected, insulted…. I am sorry I can’t let that happen and be silent. We have to correct bigoted remarks and realize that their ignorance is not a defense; it doesn’t excuse them.
Many Americans are gluttons to point to the Mexican drug violence and then they relate this to the immigration problem, while at some point in time many of these same people have used narcotics. 112,000,000 Americans have used drugs at some point in life and they have contributed to the drug problem that we face today at the border. Yes, we do need to secure our borders, but the drug violence is not related to immigration in the way these people choose to propagandize. When are we going to take personal responsibility? How convenient is it to blame others and no take accountability?
How about an answer to my question Rodriguez? Have you ever used narcotics? What about your wife or what about your parents, what about any other member of your family?

Slow,

You totally got me wrong. There are people that are outraged that the new administration wants to outlaw assault weapons, as if they have anything to do with people that want to buy guns to go hunting with. They are afraid that if they open the door a tiny crack to ban certain types of weapons, that it will swing it wide open to ban hunting weapons, pistols, etc. WHY is it necessary for Americans to have the right to buy an assault weapon? Can you answer that for me?

Conservador, You misunderstood what I said.

MH, I don’t pretend to be patient and allow misinformation or permit the attitude of, “well, he or she does not know any better,” and then give him or her a pass. I can’t allow that to be my motto while people are being pushed down, excluded, disrespected, insulted….

My friend doesn’t know any better as far as being PC is concerned. She has never pushed either group mentioned down, or exclused them or been disrespectful. In fact, she was telling me how much she liked someone she met who was black and had visited her church. She just uses words that might offend those of us who are more politically correct and who do not used old fashioned language that was acceptable 60 years ago but not today.

I don’t think that a name necessarily designates that someone is racist. People come from different times, different cultures and have different experiences. What might be offensive to me might not be offensive to them. That is why it is important to talk about things, such as on this blog, rather than going off assuming people are making fun of anyone else.

I don’t think we need any violence spilling over our borders, regardless. It is time for our government to stop fooling around at the borders. I, like many other people, feel we have to chance of really solving our immigration issues until the borders are secured, not just patrolled.

As for American guns being used, what can I say? that is an age old problem that will probably never be solved. I expect the Palestinians are probably saying the same thing: American weapons. Only difference, its legal gun sales to Israel, not illegal. Same as any other smuggling. What are we going to do about it? If you try to curtail gun sales with laws, you have ever NRA member howling like a stuck pig.

MH,

That is exactly what I am not clear on. WHY would NRA members howl like stuck pigs about bans on assault rifles? Who, in the United States, actually needs to have one? And why do they need it? I totally understand gun sales for sport and that some people feel they need a revolver for personal protection, but who really needs to have an assault rifle?

I’m fortunate to have a little teenage friend who from time to time sends me emails asking me to bequeath my wisdom to her. A couple of years ago she said that some students were discussing whether or not there was proof of a supreme being.

I told her that scholars write books on the subject and engage in lengthy debates and that the issue wasn’t likely to be settled amongst some 14 year olds. I told her that the existence of a supreme being can’t be “proven” but through the gathering of evidence best one can do is form an opinion. I told her that in the God/No God debate kids would usually START with a conclusion and then seek evidence that supports their pre-drawn conclusion in order to convince an audience.

I was talking about 14 year olds. I realize now that the tactic doesn’t change much among adults.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom, El Guapo. I am going to consider that a parable that I need to think about much more that a cursory glance.

Twinad, I have had a lot of 2nd amendment rights friends over the years. They seem to feel that the Constitution gives them an unfettered right to own any firearm they want. They also feel that any restrictions on gun ownership is a gradual whittling away of their rights.

Now, I do not agree with them. I am a moderate about this also. I don’t see why anyone needs an assault rifle but I am not a die hard 2nd amendment person.

I am sure no fewer than 50 people are going to come along and try to grind me into little bitty pieces over my interpretation of their feelings. Oh well…just trying to understand someone else’s point of view.

As an aside, Virginia used to be a bigger gun running state than it is now. We supplied New York City with a huge number of weapons, all illegal and smuggled. VA Governor Doug Wilder signed the 12 handguns a year law into law (around 1990). Many people I knew howled like stuck pigs over that law. I felt it was reasonable, especially if it helped to curtail gun smuggling.

MH,
You said,”My friend doesn’t know any better as far as being PC is concerned…I don’t think that a name necessarily designates that someone is racist.” The point is, if this same friend became an active contributor to a blog that frequently discusses racial issues and randomly adopted the blogger name “Step’n fetch it,” what would you think? Or if you’re too young to know who Step’n Fetch it was, how about Archie Bunker? I understand your point about your provincial friend, but quit giving the bigotry you see here a pass.

D. Bornstein, that might be YOUR point but it wasn’t mine. I was specifically speaking to the monikers that were chosen by 2 of our regular contributors. I don’t judge books by their covers. I also do not think their names are racist.

I wouldn’t care if someone came on as Archie Bunker. Who cares. Step’n Fetch it? What difference does it make. It is their actions, not their name that I would evaluate. Come to think of it, I actually try to hear everyone’s point of view. As most here will tell you, I rarely call people ‘racists.’ It has to be real overt for me to use those words. Why? Because I don’t know what is in their hearts.

Second Alamo and Slowpoke are regular contributors here. They keep us from preaching to the choir.

I don’t find their names to be offensive either, MH. They are just names. The bottom line is the word racist get thrown around entirely too much these days. It’s actually getting real old at this point. I believe there are many in our community that have very strong feelings one way or the other, but I certainly don’t think that makes them racists.

I’ve been called a racist myself, and on more than one occassion. The funny thing is some of those very people apologized for thinking and/or calling me a racist. They saw beyond the words they’d seen me write on blogs, or speak at Citizens’ Time. They saw I had legitimate concerns that they too would have about their community.

D Bornstein,
The most bigtory stuff around here comes from one Mr. Mackie, and there’s not a soul that comes close to holding a candle to him. There are others that make some over the top comments from time to time to but not with constitancy Mr. Mackie does. As you visit this blog more you will see what I mean. Or you might align your thoughts more with his. Time will tell.

Chris;
Thanks for the profile on Mackie. Although I seldom write, I watch the threads often and I’m fairly familiar with the personalities here.There isn’t a person alive without some sort of prejudice in them, but we must recognize it for what it is and try to be fair.

D. Bornstein,
I’ve been doing more reading then writing lately. I agree we all have prejudices. With that being said it’s important to remember some are better at hiding those prejudices than others.

D.Bornstein, you need to know that I don’t give anyone or anything a pass. it isn’t mine to give. There are people contributing on this blog from all political niches. What is it that you would like for me to do that I am not doing?

It doesn’t matter what I would like you or anybody else to do. Do what you think is right. Do whatever makes you happy. Fulfill your own agenda.

Moonhowler, you are right, I apologize if anyone was offended that I believe loving “illegal” immigrants is a stupid idea. Nor do I really wish for people to rot with their own stupidity, but sometimes my anger at the never ending one-sided defense of all “illegal” immigration ideas and concepts as being GOOD FOR AMERICA, can leave even the most tolerant person of others ideas like myself a little frustrated evough to say “forget you, I give up, there is no sanity in any of this”.

Chris, D. Bornstein and Conservadore are all right to point out the blending of “prejudices”, race and bigotry with the “legal” and “illegal” issues of immigration and the detrimental effects of such. It is an impossible and hopeless entanglement that few can unravel enough to make intelligent decisions.

On one hand we as a nation cannot allow bigotry and hatred to rule the day. On the other hand we cannot also allow “illegal” activities and “illegal” immigrants to destroy our economy, our security, our society, our community and our laws.

It seems when these concepts are blended, people think of them as the same issue, and take either one side exclusively or the other, with NO middle ground thinking at all. You are either for “illegal” immigrants or you are against them however, and there is no middle ground.

The truth is you can be able to NOT be prejudiced or preferrential toward “legal” citizens, legal visa holders and “legal” immigrants, and be VERY JUSTIFIED in demanding law enforcement toward “illegal” immigrants and be VERY AWARE of the NEGATIVE IMPACT on economics, crime, social services, and LAW that “illegal” immigration into the US over the past 25-30 years has caused.

The root cause of ALL of these BAD things that happen are a result of “illegal” immigration and are not a result of “LEGAL” immigration.

To believe they are the same is what I define as “STUPID”.
Both legal and illegal immigrants need to be held up to the SAME LAW. If a person is legal, then it is ZONING LAWS, Fair hiring practices, and Loitering laws applied to ALL citizens in order to maintain healthy and prosperous neighborhoods that is the issue. In the case of some people in our neighborhoods they are not following these laws.

If a person is “illegal” then the problem is far more complex, far more devastating and far more long term in its eventual effects. The worst effect of “illegal” immigration is overcrowding, over-population, a decrease in median family income, document fraud, mortgage fraud, an increase in poverty, illegal driving, illegal tax evasion and a general attitude of ignoring and evading community law and law enforcement.

Justifying such activity as “common” to all immigrant communities in the past historically” and then defending it, just because you think stopping it is prejudicial, or an action of bigotry or you see SOME people actually act like bigots by directing their anger at specific ethnicities that represent the greatest number of “illegal people” or by targeting race, gender, religion and ethnicity in their debates and personal prejudices, instead of targeting the proper “lawless behavior” or “lawful” behavior. People’s inability to do this is ALSO why I get frustrated at people’s apparent stupidity of belief and social concepts.

Because they themselves can only think of this issue in terns of ethnicity (ON BOTH ENDS OF THE DEBATE ALL THE TIME AS EVIDENCED BY MANY OF THE ABOVE DISCUSSIONS), They cannot and will not take the proper actions to enforce the law, and will remain mypoic to the truth of the eventual destruction to the community standard of living and the decline in ethics and safety of the neighboorhood that exists in all neighborhoods where “illegal” immigrants are present in overwhelming numbers as a result of lack of law enforcement to prevent it.

I consider such “behaviors and beliefs” (not the persons themselves) self-inflicted with insane stupidity and naive ignorance of the eventual detrimental outcome that comes from supporting it rather than stopping it. The most devasting result if it was globally devastating mortgage debaucle caused by 25 years of “illegal” immigration and illegal over-population and the resulting WORLD-wide collapse of a global economy and loss of 4.5 million jobs per year. I think that is just one of several devastating problems with allowing “illegal” immigrants to remain in the US (all 12 million of them), because they cannot and will not be able as “illegal” immigrants to create the necessary “legal” jobs to increase our GDP/GNP using innovative science and internationally competitive small business advanced world product production. They will only undermine US labor rates, and increase social services and benefits dependency that lowers GDP/GNP.

The sad thing is the stimulus packages of the TARP and ARRA acts (see recovery.com) WILL NOT preserve or increase jobs that create “new wealth” and new competitive products, but will only benefit SOME 4.5 MILLION poor PEOPLE (MOST OF WHICH ARE ALREADY part of 12 MILLION illegals), AND WILL NOT HELP sustain ECONOMIC GROWTH, BUT ONLY PROVIDE TEMPORARY RELIEF TO TARGETED and “Preferred & PRIVILIGED” MINORITIES IDENTIFIED BY HUD 8A, that will economically vaporize in two years. Like Venezuela who’s socialites and elites squandered oil profits we will squander economic bailouts that benefit only the upper 1% and the lowest 10% poverty levels using ethnicially targeted 8A programs, that WILL NOT provide innovation money to the “smartest” of Americans usually in the upper middle income levels to create “new industries”, but will only provide “life support” rather than life saving to the 12 million “illegal” immigrants who make up the bulk of the nation’s impoverished who will not create new high tech industries. This is a sad reality that “illegal” immigration support has created for the entire nation by allowing 45 million people into our borders in the lowest income levels over the past 25 years, because SOME people (specifically people of bigoted ethnicity preferences) or individual ethnicity bigoted family members felt sorry for only their ethnicity, former countrymen, or same race.

We will suffer terribly for this lack of wisdom and pervasiveness of ignorance.

Michel, I do not think people here favor illegal immigration. I think that people here want it solved differently than it has been solved.

I think most people here would call for immigration reform. One of our contributors has been trying to have her spouse’s status adjusted for the past 8 years. Another person involved with this blog as the opposite situation. Their spouse’s status was adjusted without much ado, but it was many years ago. Why should the ‘when’ have so much to do with a person’s status? If one is married to an American citizen, why can’t steps be taken to make the spouse ‘legal?’ How long did it take you to get this matter taken care of?

Moonhowler, the issue of resolving “illegal” immigration is that it is “illegal”. That means in most cases that a law was broken, and when you break a law there is usually a consequence, or sentance issued by a judge when you get caught. As in any other crime, the crime of “illegal” immigration has had a huge devastating impact on a LOT of innocent people harmed by the breaking of that law. They will demand that a judge hold these people accountable for the crime they have committed. It is a crime to be “illegal”, to harbor illegals or to transport illegals and the consequences of those crimes are the economic collapse of our entire economy. The American people are not going to forgive that without some form of compensating punishment on all individuals who committed the crime of entering the country “illegally”.

If people would just understand this, come into the country ONLY on legal documentation and follow the law, we would not have to punish them for the crimes they have committed against us (document fraud, tax evasion, illegal harboring, zoning violations, driving illegally, voting illegally, filing fraudulent mortgage documentation, fruadulent business documentation and not paying proper employment insurance, as well as the more serious crimes committed that never had to happen in this country in the first place that devastate peoples lives through rape, robbery and death).
This cannot be forgiven and solved with a “different solution” (make them citizens or reward them with what they want) that does not punish them seriously enough for what they have committed, and serious punishment enough to discourage all future people from doing it again.

My spouse came into the country legally, but overstayed her visa, and that made a difference in our ability to get approval for a temporary residency card. It is still temporary and can be revoked if she commits any other crime other than being here as a former “illegal”.

We are paying ecomomic penalties for her “illegal” behavior above the requirement to process an out of country green card, and the US views marriage as the right of the citizen to have a better stable life, but not the right of the “illegal” immigrant. In Twinad’s case, I feel sorry for her. She will likely be allowed to eventually pay some form of penalty equiivalent to the damage caused by “illegal” immigration. Those who do not marry there way into the US will be required to return to their native countries and wait their turn.

If this is all that happens to them they will get of easy, compared to the devastation they have causeed in this country. Eventually I believe there will be jail time for this crime as people and judges assess the vast extent of the “DAMAGE” they have caused on innocent civilians.

Michael, will her status ever be changed to permanent legal resident? I don’t know how that works. I don’t think the law deals with people on equitably, from what I can see.

The law should be equal Moonhowler, and it approaches equity as much as possible, although judges vary in opinion as do all people, yet they hold themselves to a higher standard.

I don’t know, that permanent status has not yet been decided, because the details of her case have not yet been completely investigated. A lot depends on what the agency believes is the extent of the crime she committed, and my honesty and proof of the reasons I gave for why I wanted to marry her.

A green card is not an automatic right, or solution for “illegal” behavior, that much I do know about the process.

Michael, you must live with great conflict, feeling as you do about illegal immigration and yet being married to someone who was illegal.

Do you see a person differently who has overstayed a visa as opposed to crossing illegally?