AntiBVBL

MH – Unfortunately this is a conflict that really has gone on for centuries in one way or the other. I don’t really see it ending anytime soon. As you point out, it is a very complex problem. Both sides really don’t want to give in or want to back down, so it is something that will be hard to resolve. Thanks for presenting a good balanced solution – a lot of the press has been kind of slanted toward the Palestinian side in my personal opinion. In any event, it is a tragic thing and a lot of deaths keep occurring on both sides.

However, in my own personal opinion, Hamas is an evil organization and unless they make a 180 degree reversal somehow – their stated intent is and always has been the complete destruction of Israel. As a result, I can understand the Israelis wanting to destroy them, or at least take out their ability to attack Israel. Of course, others are free to disagree with me, but that’s the way I see it.

I meant to say “Thanks for presenting a good balanced DESCRIPTION” – not SOLUTION. I don’t think anyone has been able to come up with a good solution for this, unfortunately – and it will be hard to do so. Will be interesting to see how Obama handles this, as well as his Secretary of State Clinton.

I struggled with it to be honest. There is so much I don’t know on a collision course with what I do know. I have such mixed feelings about this conflict. I see why the Palestinians have been pissed off for years. I worked with a friend whose mother was a Christian from Jerusalem. She was extremely bitter over her losses when the state of Israel was formed. I learned stuff talking to her that I sure never learned in school.

I understand Israel’s need and desire to exist. I understand their aggression and respect their military prowess. I understand why they don’t want to be continually shelled. I understand wanting to stomp on a government who denies your right to exist.

From what I can gather, Hamas is an example of everything gone wrong. Hamas was fairly elected in a democratic process, but yes, they are evil and have as a stated goal the desire to annihilate Israel. The Palestinian people elected a government that is not in its best interest and not interested in peace. The US cut off all aid to Palestine, didn’t it? The area suffers from high unemployment and is extremely poor.

Just a horrible situation and now the humanitarian situation is critical. Why is Hamas still firing those stupid rockets? They need to stop doing that.

I think that Palestine/Israel is extremely hard to draw a conclusion on. The more I find out, the less I know. I suppose I will continue to see both sides.

The whole situation is a terrible and pitiful situation and the easy thing for the rest of the world to do is throw up our hands and walk away. But that would be too easy and sentence millions of people to living in violence for the rest of their lives.

From a distance, its easy to see both sides. Why keep firing the rockets? Well, why does Israel seem to invade time and again? What came first the chicken or the egg?

If I was Palestinian, I’d be mad as hell that they took MY land to form another country. My relatives saw/lived that in Ireland with the Brits. I’d want my homeland back and I’d want the invaders out. I would stop at nothing to accomplish that.

Tell me, who gave anyone the right to seize land in 1948 to give it to Israel? Did anyone ask the Palestinians if they’d mind?

If I was an Israeli, I’d see my country as living under siege from a people that are intent on destroying all I was and I too, would fight like hell to survive. I would never give up and anything and everything would be on the table.

Israel isn’t going anywhere, neither are the Palestinian people. They too, need a designated homeland and the two nations are going to have reach some sort of an accord where the right to exist for both nations is protected. Neither side is going to win all it wants but without a compromise on both sides there will be no peace. It will take third party nations that support each side (Egypt, Syria and yes, Iran on the Palestinian side) and the US and Great Britian and France on the Israeli side to offer support for the accord or else it will have no legitimacy on one side or the other. Lets not forget Russia and China as world players either. They have to be onboard also.

Its not quite hopeless, pretty close, but not yet.

Lucky Duck, I am just glad to talk to people who see both sides. Most of the people I discuss this with are very pro-Israel and simply refuse to see the Palestinian side. In my house, discussion of this topic is akin to throwing a lighted match in a can of gasoline. I see both sides and like you, no easy answers.

I even had someone once tell me I was anti-semitic because I saw both sides Palestinian conflict. I was highly insulted, naturally.

The creation of Israel was the time to broker a long lasting solution, but the world failed miserably on so many levels during that time in history. The Arabs thought that they would overwhelm the Jews if given the choice between two states or fighting, they chose to fight, believing they would win. The Jews, having been almost exterminated, had the kind of resolve that only comes with having survived through utter unimaginable horrors. In the end, the Arab world was shocked, and instead of accepting the new state, they dug their heels in, hoping to one day destroy the State of Israel. Israel, in turn, still in a mind set of survival, has never come to terms that the Arabs/Palestinians, deserve the rights of decent and fair treatment with hope for their children to prosper and thrive.

I agree with much of what Lucky Duck has said, but I diverge when it comes to Israel willingness to compromise, they did, they gave back Gaza and look where it got them. The EXACT reasons for being reticent to give Gaza back has come to fruition, Hamas has come into power, an organziation bent on the destruction of Jews, and is now in a tactical position to fire missiles.

In 1948, the Brits had been occupying Palestine for some time, they left and in its place a free for all took place….winner take all and the world watched to let the “best man win”.

I can also see both sides. But I saw Netanyahu (spell?) on Wolf Blitzer his morning and he made a pretty good point. If we had rockets being fired on our cities, you can be the U.S. would respond. I just hope they don’t go overboard and hit civilians like those Hamas rockets intend to do.

We should remove ourselves from this conflict completely and especially cut our ties with Israel. They have over 250 nuclear weapons. They’ll be fine.

I agree that Israel DID give back the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, and their worst fears were realized which is why they didn’t want to give it back in the first place. Unfortunately, Israel giving back the Gaza strip wasn’t enough to appease the Palestinians. I haven’t seen the Palestinians willing to compromise on anything – they want even more territory from Israel – a good percentage of them want Israel to cease to exist.

As has been said above, it is a highly controversial topic and not too many people can see both sides of it. I am obviously very biased toward Israel. I do believe until Hamas ceases to exist, or even more unlikely – gives up their position that Israel should be destroyed – by force if necessary – I don’t see any resolution forthcoming. Hamas won a large role in the government there, when they defeated the Fatah. The whole thing is very unfortunate, but I think the problem will continue to be with us for a very long time to come. I’m just being realistic about it – there’s been lots of attempts to solve it, and I’m sure there will continue to be, but I just don’t see it being resolved anytime soon.

There was much brokering behind closed doors. Ironically, some of the largest demonstrations over the incursion are in Great Britain. I feel Great Britain sold out the Palestinians back in ‘47. As a League of Nations Protectorate they had been in the region since WWI. They had promised the Palestinians statehood since 1920. They sold out. I am sure there is another side to this. I just don’t know it. One would think that those in charge would have thought all this out better and had a little foresight. 60 some years later emotions are just as raw.

Elena, I agree. I do think Israel has compromised, especially withdrawing from Gaza several years ago. Hamas seems hell bent on destruction. What they are doing is destroying the very people who elected them. It seems to be a conundrum.

I cannot blame Israel for going in to wipe out those missles. No one should be expected to sit back and take missles being fired on your population from strategic points. We certainly wouldn’t accept Mexico or Canada firing on us.

I am heartsick over the innocent life that is going to be lost because of it. I am sickened over the ultimate destruction of an already impoverished region. This is what happens when extremists get a foothold in the door.

Agree M-H, very sad, all very sad

I agree Israel has compromised when it returned the Gaza Strip. But the Palestinians are still without a homeland and its not looking like one is coming in the immediate future. So the feeling on their side of wanting more is, to me, understandable. Again, what is it the Palistinians are wanting, more of their ancestral lands that were taken in 1948?

There is not one iota of trust in that region. Thats why its going to take outside powers that are respected (or feared) on both sides to solve it.

Israel was created with UN Resolution 181 and its not going away, but no representative from Palestine (the British vote was NOT made with their interest or input in mind) voted. So some land compromises on BOTH sides are going to be necessary or they’ll just keep hammering away at each other and slaughtering their youth, and their futures.

Can’t figure the Palestinians out….they kick the meanest pitbull on the block between the legs, then can’t figure out why it bites them. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

They were very close, with Bill Clinton and the Dayton Agreement. But Arafat, unwilling to move forward, instead called for a fatwah that brought death to so many.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

“Dear Lord Rothschild,
His Majesty’s Government views with favour the establishment of a
national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate
the achievement of this objective, it being clearly understood that nothing
shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religous rights of existing
non-Jewish communities in Palestine …

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour ”

A long and complex history? One could say.

Slow, I am howling with laughter over your analogy. Thanks for a good laugh. And very true on some levels, mean as it is. I hope you will give me permission to quote you.

Elena, yes they were close. I do not understand why Arafat dug his heels in. He had a chance to redeem himself and to be one of the three who brought peace to the middle east. I have read that was one of Clinton’s biggest disappointments. Maybe he will get another chance with leaders who realize that compromise is the ONLY way this situation will ever be resolved. They can’t all kill each other.

Talk to the Poles. The most conquered country on earth. Last round, Israel won with lots of support. Think that’s simply how it works on this earth.

Israel can take care of themselved. They certainly let their military/intelligence deal with things and they disregard any armchair quarterbacks.

Moon Howler,

Feel free to use my analogy. Even I know not to slap a Hell’s Angel in the face…I’ll get hurt….bad. The Palestinians consider it unfair….right, who said life is fair? Oh, and while I’m thinking about it. The term “hate speech” gets used a lot around these parts to refer to anything that doesn’t equate to “PWC needs to become a third world cesspool immediately”. For those listening closely, “Bring back the ovens” has been uttered with respect to this conflict. Now THAT’S hate speech. Follow along closely: Enforce our laws, not hate speech……Bring back the ovens, hate speech.

Slow, thanks for the use of the analogy. One of the better ones I have heard. Hell’s Angel one wasn’t bad either.

Glad I gave you an opportunity to pontificate about hate speech. Everyone gets an opinion around these parts.

Where is Obama on this subject…? Interesting how he puts out information about just about everything, except for this conflict. If he doesn’t speak out soon he is only going to have a bigger problem on his hands come the 20th. Hamas is already calling him out.

A video that is interesting viewing (slated to the Orthodox Jewish point of view but still interesting) – about the Obama and his advisors’ views on Israel. It was put out before the election but is still relevant (or even moreso): http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=193353

hello – I agree it will be interesting how Obama handles this. In addition to the US economy, this may very well be one of his first big tests when he takes office. The jury is definitely out on where his views are, but some of his advisors have views sympathetic to the Palestinians.

Hi GR, I find it odd that he has been putting out his ideas on just about every subject, except for this one… the only thing he has said about this conflict is that “there is only one president at a time”, I don’t get it, he doesn’t say that about the economy. I commend him for his efforts to fix the economy but he can’t just over look this issue hoping that it just goes away before the 20th. The longer he waits the worse it’s going to get, Hamas is already talking smack about him and he still says nothing. He needs to grow a pair and speak up before this gets totally out of hand, or at the very least just talk about it. So far he hasn’t done or said a thing which is somewhat disturbing to me. By the way, that was an interesting video… your right, it does show his advisors obvious sympathetic views to the Palestinians which is a little scary as well. I think that is why your not hearing anything from him yet, I think he is just hoping it goes away so that he doesn’t have to address it.

Hello,
Obama has addressed it, quite clearly actually. He said that is His house with HIS children was targeted by Hammas missiles, he would not sit idly by and do nothing. Not a quote, but you get the gist.

OK, I hadn’t heard that statement by Obama – so it sounds hopeful at least. Time will tell however, how he handles it as he takes office.

It’s better than a lot of the news media (such as CNN) who make it sound like Israel is doing this basically unprovoked and giving a rather one-sided coverage on this.

Hi Elena, I’ve never heard that from Obama either… Do you know where I can find that statement by him? I would be interested in seeing it for myself.

GR, your right about the CNN coverage, I was watching a little this morning and they make it seem like Israel is just giving them a pounding for no apparent reason.

Hello, Obama came out and said that there is only one president of the United States. I am glad he is keeping his trap shut. Foreign countries should not be getting conflicting messages from the United States. Right now, George Bush is the president and it should be he whose voice is heard by all foreign countries.

hello -the worst thing CNN said was “Israel launched the very first rocket in this attack”. They failed to mention Hamas broke the cease fire earlier in the year, not to mention all the rocket attacks, suicide bombers, etc. that Israel has endured. They also alluded to the fact that Israel had no right to this territory – which Israel DID give back to the Palestinians, only to have it backfire on them with Hamas using it as a base to launch their attacks. They would have criticized Israel for NOT returning this to the Palestinians, yet fail to mention they did and what do they get in return for this? Hamas firing missiles at Isreal from Gaza.

MH – I would agree with you that there is only one president at a time and right now that is George Bush. I’m willing to wait and see how Obama handles this once in office – it should be interesting to see what he does.

Hi Moon-howler – point taken, however, doesn’t the economy affect most foreign countries as well? So he is to keep his trap shut on some issues, not all of them? He can pick and choose what issues he wants to address I suppose but he is only going to make it harder on himself when this problem is still there in 2 weeks. Also, he has made his views known about Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Russia (concerning Georgia) and other issues about other countries. Why not this one? I don’t buy the one president line…

I raced again to respond to Hello before reading all the comments. First off, Hi, Hello. Where have you been hanging out? Haven’t seen you around these parts for a couple weeks. Welcome back.

Fox makes it sound like Palestine is nuking Israel so perhaps all is balanced out. Elena, I also heard Obama make a statement similar to the one you paraphrased. I do not recall where.

Don’t you all feel that Obama will take a Clintonesk stance on Palestine and Israel? I think he will talk to Hamas. He doesn’t believe in not speaking. I think he will use communication skills to find peace in addition to negotiations and compromise.

Gainesville, what is your opinion of that video?

I think he is using the one president line to avoid a sticky wicket hoping that it’s resolved before the 20th…

Hi Moon, I’ve been a silent observer I suppose for the past few weeks. I just got really turned off to the site for a while.

Like Gainesville, I’m looking forward to what Obama is going to do with this situation but I would like to see him be a little more open about his views of it.

Gainsville, CNN sure wasn’t being fair and balanced if it said Israel lobbed the first rocket on this one. That shelling was on even before the temporary cease fire had expired, hadn’t it?

Hello, The economy is one thing. That basically involves our country and policy. Yes, it affects other countries but only as an aside. The policies set are completely the responsibility of our sovereign nation and not a foreign agent.

Conversely, our foreign policy can only be implemented by George Bush until Jan 20. He is the leader that the foreign nations need to be listening to regardless of how right or how wrong he is. Obama should not be commenting on things over which he has no control with foreign nations. He is doing the right thing. He is keeping his trap shut so that the current president can deal with a delicate situation. He either agrees 100% with President Bush or he undermines him. if he agrees publically, why bother to speak.

Again, that is a good point Moon, but we don’t know if he agrees or disagrees with anything Bush has said or done on the issue. Remember when he ran against Bush before the election, he sure didn’t mind pointing out everything he disagreed with then.

Hello, care to share what turned you off in particular? (I notice you still read though…I can understand that)

Bush isn’t doing much, but he didn’t do much the last time for a week or 2. Not a criticism, just an observation.

Pardon me for not being understanding but I want both sides to just stop it. Right now. Does that sound parental enough? Actually, I like what Slowpoke said and he did give me permission to quote him:

According to Slow:

Can’t figure the Palestinians out….they kick the meanest pitbull on the block between the legs, then can’t figure out why it bites them. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Hello, yea but that’s electioneering. He certainly disagreed with Hillary and then nominated her for Secretary of State.

If I recall correctly, his main departure from Bush doctrinaire was about establishing dialogue with Hamas. I think we will have to wait and see. For that matter, Bush might be pulling him in on some of this but still it should be Bush’s voice.

Yeah, I read that from Slow and it’s spot on. I agree with you, in a perfect world both sides would just stop and live in peace. However, when your dealing with Hamas who just indiscriminately lobs rockets at you ever day what are you to do (47 on Sunday and 16 so far today)? Mahmaud al-Zahar (a senior Hamas official) today said that they will not end the rocket attacks and even praises these attacks by what he calls ‘resistance men’.

I was just really turned off by constant name calling (mostly anti-immigrant when someone is against illegal immigration) and what seemed to me to be open bigotry towards white men. The most telling thing is when something would be said is a derogatory manner about white men nobody, except for myself, would question it. Just about everyone here claims to be against any kind of bigotry – but when it’s about white men it seems to be just fine.

MH – regarding that video link I posted – I only saw it yesterday for the first time after a friend sent it to me. It does concern me about some of the statements of some of his advisors on that video – let’s put it that way. So I’m concerned, but willing to wait and see what Obama actually DOES (as opposed to even what he says) about the Israel/Palestine problem – after he takes office.

I do think hello has a very good point: if Obama is commenting on other things that affect the world, then he really can’t pick and choose what topics to comment on. So I am slightly revising my statement earlier. However, I do agree that there is only one president at a time, and conflicting statements on US foreign policy lead to confusion.

In regards to establishing a dialogue with Hamas – I thought we don’t negotiate with terrorists. I don’t think we should dialogue Hamas until the move away from their position that they are for the complete destruction of Israel. Then again Obama wants to talk to that nutty Iranian leader too (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) who I feel is just as bad as Hamas. Well, I hope something good will come out of this.

I hope some good comes out too. I am not sure we live in a world where you can just shut down people you consider a terrorist, especially when they are a duly elected government. I think there will have to be dialogue and I agree, they must be made to understand that Israel will exist and its non-existence must be removed from their stated objectives.

Not speaking or formally recognizing these clowns doesn’t advance the cause of peace. Gainesville, I am impressed that you can spell that Iranian jerk’s name, but can you say it? I felt the video was one sided and painted an unfair depiction of Obama. In fairness though, I had a couple things going on here and couldn’t give it 100% concentration.

Hello, I hope you won’t let the sentiments of one person color your attitude about the entire blog. I don’t like the attacks on white people either and generally ignore them. I don’t like attacks on any group of people based on their race or ethnicity.

As for anti-immigrant vs anti-illegal immigration, I think I have said before, I am guilty also of it and I will explain why. Most of us here, not all, but most, have an issue with illegal immigration. I would go so far as to say that illegal immigrants also have a problem with it. Laws and policy are outdated and need to be rewritten to meet the needs of our country.

Too many people who are very verbal about illegal immigrants fail to distinguish between those here legally and those here illegally. Additionally, how do we as regular joe Q Citizen tell the difference? So I shorten it. Basically, I’ll stop when others stop broad-brushing.

Hopefully we can get over our disagreement over semantics. I think you and I and you and others here have much common ground.

MH – I will confess I cut/paste the idot from Iran’s name! No, I can’t pronounce it either! I wasn’t going to even try to spell it so I cheated!

The video I posted is definitely slanted toward the Jewish point of view – it’s intended audience. No question about that.

I would agree to a dialog with Hamas IF and ONLY IF they agree to reverse their position on the complete destruction of Israel. They haven’t budged on that so far despite numerous attempts by others to get them to do so. However, you make a point that they are an elected gov’t, which does make them different than other terrorist organizations. I suppose as they already are “legitimate”, having a dialog with them doesn’t make them any more legitimate. I have a problem with making terrorst organizations legitimate by dialoguing with them. That said, I’m not sure even though the idiot from Iran (I won’t try to cut/paste his name again as I don’t want to bother looking it up) is part of a legitimate gov’t – that we should engage in dialog with him. He’s already made it pretty clear what his point of view is about several different things (Iran’s nuclear power, Israel, the Holocaust, etc.) and it doesn’t seem like he’s open to changing his beliefs.

Where does Hamas purchase their weapons?

I believe that Hamas purchases its weapons from Iran. Syria usually has some arms deals going on also.

Gainesville, I don’t think anything but death is going to change Hamas. I wouldn’t even have a clue about how to break the cycle of hatred and doom inside the minds of Palestinians in Gaza. Why would they elect a government that was hell bent on getting them killed? How do you tell them this? Are the minds so full of dispair that they cannot see past this?

If I were King for a day, I would demand statehood for Palestine. Perhaps that would give them some national pride. I would also infuse the new country with foreign aid that had serious stipulations about what the money could and could not be spent on. I don’t know what I would do with the non-contiguous situation of the nation. That is a problem that should have been ironed out decades ago.

yes most likely they purchased weapons from Iran, or China or Russia, or maybe even Israel themselves via the US in accordance with the truce? Maybe Israel offered them weapons if they promised to adhere to the truce? Maybe Israel provided them with weapons in a good faith effort to support a truce.

DB – Israel would never offer Hamas weapons. The only thing Hamas would do with those weapons would be to use them against Israel.

MH – I have to sadly admit you are right about Hamas – that death is the only thing that is going to change them. Your description about the cycle of hatred and doom in the minds of the Palestinians is a good one. It is hard to figure why they voted for Hamas given that the only thing Hamas was going to do was to provoke Israel to defend itself and try to wipe out Hamas’ ability to shoot weapons at them.

I do believe foreign aid was given to the Palestinians with stipulations how the money was to be used. This was sometime back – I’d have to try and search and refresh my memory on that. The idea was just what you were saying, to try and help the country’s economy and help it prosper.

The non-contiguous nature of the country is a problem. I’m not sure there are any other nations like that. However, one would think the country could be set up as several states or provinces or whatever they want to call it – with a local government in each “state” and then the country’s government on top of that.

Anyway, unfortunately this is a problem that is going to be with us for a very long time and there will be no easy solution. I wouldn’t want the job of having to try and broker peace between the Israeli’s and the Palestinian’s. It is no easy job, as past presidents have found out.

Gainesvilleresident,
Maybe there was a catch to the truce. Maybe the catch was that Israel gave them weapons so that they may be seen/felt as equals. Maybe the weapons came from Israel or the US. And maybe during the entire truce Israel knew exactly what would unfold for them when the truce expired. They predicted it and it came to fruition. Iran is farther from Hamas than the Israelis and the Americans when weapons are concerned.

Gainesville, I think it was one of Clinton’s biggest disappointments. He came so close …and Arrafatt (sp) just wouldn’t budge after a point.

I think we gave Palestine foreign aid but cut it off once Hamas was elected to lead the government because they were an identified terrorist group. That threw the region into even more poverty.

I think part of the problem is exacerbated by the fact they have bunches of young men wandering around with unemployment at over 50% and no army to draw them into a socially acceptable way to be militaristic. Yes, perhaps I am saying too much testosterone.

If there were a state of Palestine they could raise an army, get all those wandering young men involved and do something productive. Army corp of engineers type stuff. You have employment, increased quality of life, and less opportunity to be a terrorist.

We don’t give Palestine or Israel foreign aid but then cut it off, we gave our aid to Israel, forced them to “compromise” with Palestine and gave them (Palestine) our aid a via Israel. The US is complicit in the entire deal. We’re dirty on both ends of the stick. Both hands in a pot but not one to piss in. And while we’re all celebrating the US leaving the green zone in Iraq…who gets the surplus weapons? The army brings it in weapons-wise but they dont take it home. They leave it. Who will they give the intel to? The Kurds who are highly organized or others? Who wants it more? There is the next spat.

We do not give Hamas foreign aid because they are designated as terrorist. We give Israel about 2 billion dollars a year in foreign aid. I don’t know what stipiulations are on Israel, if any.

We should bring our weapons home when we leave an area. To not do so is wasteful and idiotic.

We don’t give Hamas funding directly, but they get our funding in a round about way from us and use it against us and the countries the US supports. They’re cagey that way. We give Israel how much in aid? Aid for what? They have a top notch CIA-type program, they rely on “volunteers” for their armed forces, mandatory armed service requirements for both men and women.

“If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters. The Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, quoted Mr. Obama’s statement in justifying the attack on Hamas during a news briefing on Dec. 29.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/washington/05diplo.html?hp

Hello,
This was the statement I was talking about, however, this was re-stated by Ehud Barak, Israel’s defense minister on December 29th, NOT by Obama himself.

The people of Gaza ought to declare war on Hamas. It is Hamas who has brought about the Israeli incursion. I go back to slowpoke’s statement. I think it says it all.

Supposedly Fatah over on the West Bank is cracking down on demonstrations and not even allowing the Hamas flag to be shown. 2 schools of thought here. 1. They don’t want the competition 2. They don’t want to have Israel crawling all over the West Bank because it is a security threat. They don’t want to demonstrate any solidarity with Hamas, although many of the people do.

Slow, can you go over there and just tell these people in plain,old fashioned, straight-forward terms what a bad idea solidarity with Hamas would be?

To read more…..

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/world/middleeast/06westbank.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

DB, I think about 2 billion dollars per year …foreign aid to Israel.

Why do you think we give foreign aid indirectly to Hamas?

DB, is this what you are talking about? I read it and came away going duh…not sure here.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

here’s the Israel one:
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

I can’t find anything that gives an exact amount in US aid to Israel for 2008. I am sure it is out there but I am too lazy to search real hard.

MH – that’s a good comment you made about the people of Gaza should declare war on Hamas. Unfortunately, at least recently before the rocket attacks started, a lot of Palestinians were very supportive of the Hamas. It will be interesting to see if this changes their opinions. It would also be great if the next election cycle Hamas was thrown out in favor of the Fatah regime.

Regarding US aid to Israel – I highly doubt there are any preconditions or strings attached.

Now that you mention it, I do remember the US giving aid to the Palestinians up until the Hamas came into power.

I seem to remember Clinton actually saying the failure of the Peace Accords was one of his biggest disappointments. Arafat sure was stubborn – they came so close that time.

Well, I don’t know what the solution is.

On a slightly different topic – what does everyone think about Obama’s pick for CIA Director? I am on the side of thinking it is not good. The last time they put someone in without any intelligence experience (and to make a “clean sweep” or something) it was a disaster and led to low morale and many long-term CIA intelligence operatives leaving. I hope history doesn’t repeat itself. I’m very surprised by this choice, and thought Obama would have put someone in with intelligence experience. Sure, they can say Padetta has lots of foreign policy experience being a former Chief of Staff, but that isn’t the same as intelligence experience. Was it a political favor? Or does Obama really want to bring in someone with good organizational skills to reorganize the CIA? Time will tell I guess. Also he really blundered (or his staff) by not telling Senator Feinstein about this. Rule number one is you should give someone like that a “heads up” on this kind of appointment (even if it was someone with intelligence experience). Blindsiding the head of the intelligence committee is not such a good idea. It will be interesting to watch the confirmation hearings on this one, although I’m sure in the end he will be confirmed. Let’s hope it doesn’t harm the CIA in the long run.

Gainesville, he probably should have consulted her expertise in chosing someone. I say it is a screw up (but what do I know). How much experience did George Bush Sr. have when he was placed in that position? I do know people really liked him in that capacity.

Leon Panetta has a good reputation but what good does that do you if no expertise in the intelligence community. Bad joke. Maybe he should put Daddy Bush back in there.

Gainesville, those people of Gaza ought to turn on Hamas and tear them to shreds. Again, back to Slowpoke’s comment. Why would they lob missiles at Israel? What do they think is going to happen? What would ANY country do? It is like those drunks at the zoo who had to taunt the tiger. Fooled them for sure as they became tiger food.

I sure hope that after a small taste of the democratic process the people of Gaza vote more3 sensibly, if there is anyone left. Seeing those civilians in makeshift hospitals in shreds is heartbreaking. Anytime there is armed agression in a small urban area like Gaza there will be huge collateral damage. (I hate that expression) This is just all so freaking STUPID!

MH – you may have a point about Bush Sr. – I don’t think he had any relevant experience before the CIA. Well I hope it works out, the CIA has had enough problems in its recent past without any new ones. It does seem though that failing to give Senator Feinstein a heads up about this was a screw-up, that may cost Obama some political good will at the very least. Wonder if it was intentional or an oversight.

MH – indeed trying to go up against Israel is beyond stupid. They have one of the best armed forces in the world and also their intelligence service is world class. I don’t know really what Hamas hopes to achieve by doing this other than just inflicting some damage and casualties. However, whatever they do achieve – the Israeli’s are going to do far more damage and inflict more casualties on Hamas, that’s for sure. Hard to say what Hamas’ end goal is here – as they have to know they aren’t going to succeed in destroying Israel – they are very outmatched in that respect.

I just happened to see on CNN’s webpage a poll asking the question “Is Leon Panetta a good choice to head the CIA?”. Of course this is not a scientific poll, but right now with 37976 responses it is running 38% Yes and 62% No.

Obama was just on tv addressing all the things we have been discussing. His reasoning on Leon Panetta is pretty good actually. He said his reputation was beyond reproach and that as chief of staff he had daily encounters with all sorts of intelligence issues. Good point. Advisor to the President surely would have a great deal of practical experience with not only intelligence but also with dealing with heads of state. Obama also said he had excellent management skills.

Obama also addressed not commenting on Hamas/Israel. He went back to it being a foreign affair matter and on Jan 20 he would have plenty to say about it. Meanwhile the countries of the world looked to the USA to see what they thought and they needed to hear President George Bush.

Gainesville, interesting cnn poll. Maybe the CIA just needs a good house-cleaning. You are right. It has been fraught with internal problems, back-biting, territorialism (is there such a word?) and general incompetence, that maybe Obama is on to something. Maybe he is trying to class the place up.

I always heard that George Bush Sr did that–brought some class to the place. He would sit down with middle management and actually talk to them about what needed to happen. From what I have heard living in Manassas, the employees loved him. Not the muckety mucks, but the rank and file employees.

MH – thanks for the update on what Obama said today both on Panetta and on the Gaza situation. I have also heard George Bush Sr. was well liked. And it is true, the CIA certainly has a lot of problems. Well, it will be interesting to see how it works out. I hope it does work out well and Panetta is right for the job – we need a strong CIA that can be out front in the war against the terrorists by providing good intelligence on them.

Gainesville, we do need a strong CIA for sure and one that isn’t in competition with other security/intelligence agencies. I hope it works out also. And if it does, they can all come thank you and me for setting them up for success. Panetta definitely has a good rep in my opinion. The CIA, on the other hand, is a little on the iffy side. They had a rather informative unveiling after 9-11 and what we saw was not a pretty sight.

MH – I agree we saw a lot of bad things about the CIA post 9/11. I don’t know that it has improved since then. Well, I do hope that Panetta can help turn things around there – so will be interesting to follow what happens there in the next few years. We do for sure need a strong CIA that doesn’t go and make embarrassing mistakes like it has in the past. Finally, I will confess about not knowing much about Panetta – I remembered the name from the Clinton years but that was about it, and couldn’t even peg him as Chief of Staff. I just knew of him as a close associate of Clinton’s. It does seem that the news articles speak well of him as someone with good management skills and organizational skills, so maybe that’s more important than actual intelligence experience (as opposed to foreign policy experience which is probably what he has more of than intelligence experience). Reading intelligence reports (as the President’s advisor) is one thing, knowing about the actual collecting of intelligence is quite another. However, I’m hoping that all of that doesn’t matter as much as being a good manager and being able to listen to career CIA folks who know more about spycraft and intelligence collecting than he does.

Gainesville, I am not even sure he has been announced yet. He might still be a rumor. But, if he is confirmed by the Senate, I hope he is successful. I am not sure he needs to know about all the spook and spy stuff. That is why he will have senior staff. He can call in all the experts that are at his disposal and he will have the managerial skills to make all those experts behave themselves.

Any news on the Gaza strip tonight? I cannot stand looking at those poor people who stupidly elected Hamas as their government. I still cannot understand why they don’t know if you poke a rotweiler with a stick it is probably going to bite the living hell out of you.

I want to make Slowpoke the Ambassador to Gaza, send him over there to like do puppet shows with them so they get the concept–so they will stop doing what they are doing! Seeing those children all shot and blown up is just heart breaking.

MH – Panetta’s selection hasn’t been “officially” announced, but an article today in the Washington Post says he is already starting to make calls to Congress, etc. So it is all but done – for whatever reason Obama is waiting to officially anounce it. Also, the Democrats on the foreign intelligence committee are insisting the two senior managers in the CIA stay on – and supposedly Obama has invited them to stay on. The Washington Post article however noted that a senior aide in the Clinton administration noted that Panetta showed no interest in intelligence briefings or the operation of the CIA when he was Chief of Staff. Of course, that aide is anonymous, so we all know what that means. Well, again I hope it works out, as the article noted, there are lots of problems currently within the CIA. I should link the article, but it is on the main page of the Washington Post website this morning.

The latest news on Gaza is that both Israel and the Palestinians have agreed to a 2 1/2 period of cease fire to let some humanitarian aid get into Gaza. So that’s a positive development.

As for the election of Hamas by the Palestinians – one thing Hamas is good at is exploiting people’s fears and they have a very good propaganda machine targeted at their audience to convince them to see their point of view. It is unfortunate that they hold so much power over there, but hopefully the latest events will cause some Palestinians to rethink whether Hamas being in a leadership role there is good for them. The daily news showing lots of people dying can’t be too helpful as how can Hamas say they are improving things in Gaza with all that going on? I would like to see how they spin that one. It should be clear that if they hadn’t provoked Israel all these people wouldn’t be dying, although I’m sure Hamas has some other spin on it.

I had to move the thread. It had rolled over and was too hard to find.

I am glad to see the cease fire. I would hope that the people in harms way would be able to cross the border over into Egypt. I am glad to see Egypt has a hand in brokering a compromise or cease fire.

You are right about Hamas and Hezbollah both being agents of fear and stirring everyone up. They never seem to be held responsible though.

Unfortunately, Israel often ends up looking like the bad guys as do we. They use the technology at hand to go to war.

So is the cease fire for today or longer?

Thanks for moving the thread MH – since it went to the 2nd page. I too am glad to see the “every other day for 2 hour” cease fire they’ve arranged. It’s a step in the right direction.

It is a no-win situation for Israel, that’s for sure. If they sit and do nothing, they get criticized. If they defend themselves, which is their right, they get criticized. Similar to what happens to the US in many situations.

I read that the cease fire is every other day for a 2 hour (or maybe it is 2 1/2 hour) period. I think that’s correct (at least that it is every other day for some period at the same time) so that’s a good thing.

Gainesville, I sure hope it lasts. I don’t see how either group can live like that. How can you live wondering every day if you are going to be blown to smitherines?

Israel doesn’t fool around and will always be criticized for being too heavy handed. I have done so myself. However, back to those incoming shells being fired from Gaza…who could blame them.

I haven’t sounded much like a person who sees both sides lately, but I honestly do. Maybe when Hamas quits firing those missiles I will be able to be more even handed in my criticism.

MH – heard an interesting interview on WTOP this evening on the way home from work. They talked to an aide to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (again, i cut/paste the name!). The aide was fairly critical of Hamas and had a rather pragmatic view of things with Israel. He basically said it was not in their best interests to go to war with Israel and that diplomacy would be better. He said they are making attempts at getting Hamas to come to the negotiating table, but didn’t sound too optimistic about how that would go. He was fairly critical of Hamas. It was interesting to hear although of course as Abbas is a member of Fatah which is a rival of Hamas it makes sense the aide would be critical of them. Anyway, what he said made sense – too bad more Palestinians didn’t have his point of view and maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess.

That sounds very encouraging. Now, is President Abbas in Jerusalem or West Bank centered? I believe he is a reasonable person. I understand that the war is back on again. Hard to imagine turning off a war for 3 hours or so.

Gainesville, Things aren’t looking so great on the north side. I just read where Hezbollah is trying to get in the act. They have fired 2 rockets into Israel. One hit a retirement home and injured 2 seniors who were eating breakfast. Israel fired back.

Lebanon had better get a handle on Hezbollah quickly. I don’t think they want a repeat performance from 2 years ago.

I sure am not developing any warm fuzzies over Arab terrorist groups. Is anyone else?

MH – I’m fairly certain Abbas is in the West Bank in Jerusalem. It is hard to imagine the war turning off for a 3 hour period every other day. Never heard of that one before but at least it is something.

I also heard this morning about Hezbollah launching rockets. I guess they want a piece of the action too.

By the way, I saw an interesting article about the whole thing online at Time’s website this morning – the link is http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870314,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner . It doesn’t paint such a good picture for Israel if the war continues long term. Not sure if I agree with everything it says, but it does make some good points and is worth reading.

Thanks, Gainesville. I will definitely check the article out. You know, I don’t see why Israel would be questioned here. They can’t pick and chose who decides to fire missiles at them. Lebanon needs to get things under control there. Gaza is another story. That is land that really isn’t a state.

I am not Jewish so perhaps this is just a statement I don’t have the right to make, but I cannot imagine living in Israel. Why put yourself through living with terrorism.

I would agree with you MH. As a Jewish person, at one time the idea of living in Israel looked a little bit appealing. But right now, no way would I want to live there. I also would like to visit Israel sometime, but not right now. An aunt and uncle of mine travelled there last summer and enjoyed it, but even then I was worried about their safety. If I was living in Israel I would be living very scared, let’s put it that way.

Upon thinking about that Time article, there was some things I definitely disagreed on. They seemed to say even though Israel had a right to defend itself, continuing to try to disarm Hamas (and not actually overthrow Hamas) was doing more harm than good. I think Israel does have the right to attempt to take out all of Hamas’ missile capability. The article even stated that the Israeli Prime Minister has said they are not out to overthrow Hamas.

Anyway, my sympathies are with the Israeli’s who try to live there and make a living. Somewhere else (I think) I saw an article about a man who lives on the Israeli side near the Gaza strip. His house was just hit by a Hamas missile. It must be really hard living there – but not easy living anywhere in Israel these days. There are plenty of casualties on the Palestinian side, but not many articles mention those on the Israeli side. The Hamas missiles are obviously landing SOMEWHERE in Israel and inflicting damage and casualties.

MH – here’s another article that might be interesting reading for you that was just posted. This is in the January Issue of “The Jewish Voice and Opinion” which the editor is a close friend of mine from college. Obviously it is pro-Israeli point of view. Anyway, the title is:

“Who Is to Blame? Israel and the US Say Hamas; Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah, plus the Media, say Israel; Abbas, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan Say It Doesn’t Matter, Just Keep the Muslim Brotherhood Away”

The link to it is http://jewishvoiceandopinion.com/a/JVO20090101.html

I have found and marked everything. Notice that the thread is repositioned. with Hezbollah throwing back in the mix, I am sorry to say this one might be around for a longer time than anticipated. We can always have another thread.

One of the things I find uncomfortable when I talk about the Israeli/Palestine conflict is I do see both sides when looking at the big picture. My family has a sort of inlaw who is Jewish who takes any criticism of Israel and anything in defense of Palestinians as anti-semitic. I don’t see it that way at all. In fact, I find it offensive. Good grief, I criticize plenty of policies of the USA. It doesn’t mean that I am anti-American or anti anything else other than that policy. I am opposed to how the Indians were treated when our country was settled. I don’t want to go out and give them back every square foot of land. Time to move on. Ah, I had to grouse a bit.

OK, you are right that now that Hezollah has decided to join in the fray, it’s going to make it even harder to work out a resolution. I do think it’s a safe bet we may be discussing this for a long time, unfortunately.

I will confess that I often don’t take criticism of Israel too well, although I’ve never really thought of that as being anti-semitic. That being said, a lot of the press seems to be giving a kind of lopsided portrayal of things – CNN being one of the biggest culprits. It also is a subject that most people have very strong opinions about – one way or the other. You may be kind of in the minority of being able to feel some sympathy for both sides in the conflict – although you seem to be losing your sympathy for the Palestinians as they continue to support Hamas who appears to be doing them more harm than good. Most people I’ve talked to or have seen express opinions on this are very much on one side or the other – they either think Israel is completely wrong in this and are killing innocent Palestinians, or else they side with Israel.

Glad you were able to move the thread – and I guess it was more work than you bargained for as it gave you a bit of trouble doing so.

It didn’t take long. I had to decide where to put other things and which threads were ready to roll on off into the sunset. (without offending others, of course)

I haven’t been watching cnn on this and no particular reason. I don’t like my news interpreted for me. I want to decide for myself.

I don’t like to see things as black or white. Life isn’t that simple. Most things have a lot of gray in them. If I turn left, I get there faster but the scenery is ugly and the road is bumpy. If I turn right, it takes longer but it a better road and there are places to stop along the way such as rest stops….which one is right? It depends.

I do think our foreign policy is too lopsided. I am not sure how to fix the problem. But the rest of the Arab world cannot see us as totally in favor of israel and screw everyone else. We have to be seen as a fairer nation and we cannot dismiss that the land has belonged to both groups of people.

I could blab for the next hour, so I am going to stop and go finish those articles. I had company and I am SO glad they went home.

Moonhowler, your commentary is excellant! I have tried so hard on this blog to show people (from my own war experience in the Middle East region), that hatred and bigotry is a direct result of people taking side based ONLY on their political affiliation with a group divided by race, gender, religion and ethnicity.

This divide, and the continued politics of gender, racial, religios and ethnic preference and law that supports only specifric groups, is the heart of hatred, and the reason for all of the conflict.

It WILL NOT stop until people their in the Middle East, just like people here in the US, finally outlaw all forms of racial, gender, religious and ethnic group based political activism, and leadership bigotry in corrupted politics that is based only on what race, gender, religion or ethnic group a person belongs to.

WE as a nation are in the same danger of the same uncontrollable ethnic conflict if we DO NOT stop going down our current non-harmoneous, non-united, a-political nationalist, divided, Anti-American diversity advocacy, anti-law lawlessness, divided racist bigotry and conflicted, militant, gender, racial, religious, and ethnicity group politcal paths.

The problem, and the solution my dear moonhowler (again I LOVE your honest, thoughtful and truthful comments) is to ensure unified democracy, rather than group political corruption prevails, and that “rule of law” prevails that judges and punishes “individuals” judged by what they do to harm innocent others, not how much one group can divide and politically support corrupt, unethical, and diverse political philosophy and extremist activism, based on what gender, race, religion or ethnicity you politically belong to.

That is the heart of ethnic hatred, conflict and war.

The final peaceful solution will only come when they can merge their two religions, remove the bad in both religions and keep the good, since they actually BOTH have the same historical texts derived from the same events described by early hebrews and early summarians (babylonians), that spread both east and west (some 6000-7000 years ago). They and most of Asia, share a common religious ancestry (but many don’t know it), but due to modern revisions and doctrinal changes (fought over how they were to treat fellow men and how to get into heaven), caused modern day martyrs and taught religious hatred as a religious virtue. Some day All religions of the world will have the same ethical conflict and it can only be solved by the same merging solution.

Welcome to our discussion Michael. Gainesville resident and I aren’t willing to turn loose of this one! And it looks like it is intensifying.

I expect that this little section of the middle east is the poster child for the heart of ethnic hatred, conflict and war. To me, it makes absolutely no sense for the erruptions of violence to have happened.

Gainesville has left several very interesting articles. I am still finishing up the end of the Time article. The Jewish Voice and Opinion really looked at many different sides. My only fault with that article, and the fault is with me, is my knowledge base left me a little short sometimes and I wasn’t sure who people were and what group was what.

All in all, I felt that group gave a very fair analysis. It is all too easy to forget that not all Palestinians agree, not all Arabs agree, not all Palestinians are Muslim, not all Jews agree and not just Palestians have been displaced.

I believe Obama, will do what is right, tell both sides to stop, sit down at a table and draw a border between them (trade Gaza land for more paletinian land somewhere else. Then set up a buffer zone like in N. Korea, Vietnam, etc, Then let each of them rule themselves, until the “people” and political elements can homogenize (like carthage, athens and rome did) to agree on the same universial democratic law, that removes religion from government, enforces the same national legal system and more unified politics and a unified united nation of “individuals” rather than “religious and ethnic political groups” that hate each other for generations because they hurt and oppressed each other last week, last month, last year….

More people have been killed in the name of God than any other cause. How sad, and certainly not what any God I know of would want. Let’s throw Christians in the mix here also. They have certainly made their mark upon the region.

I am too lazy to go back to see if I first mentioned that my first exposure, outside of textbooks, to the ‘other side’ of the Palestine/Israel conflict came from an older Palestinian Christian woman. Ordinarily, I would say her religion was irrelevant, but in this case, it wasn’t. Hearing her feelings and knowing that neither Judiasm or Islam were part of the complaint gave me a little clearer picture of the regional problem. She also was a young adult at the end of WWII. I had a very eye opening afternoon about 20 years ago while talking to Mrs. N.

I thank her for giving me a first hand account because it caused me to see the horrible problems in this region, I feel, in a fairer way and in a way that is freer of group bias.

Both sides are wrong and both sides are right. They simply have to learn to merge their cultures into a unified nation and if possible unified religion (or repect the right to individual freedom to each practice in peace, while preventing group based political advocacy by ethnicity and by religion, which is the source of the hatred) or keep them seperate politically behind a border, seperate and forever apart until they can respect and not oppress each other. As many have said that may take third party pressure from both Arab and non-Arab nations condemning violence and hatred on both sides, regardless of which “Hatfield” killed which “McCoy” first.

People who kill in God’s name, regardless of the nation they are from, do not have God’s permission or blessing, nor are they morally religious, but are instead driven by a force of hatred and in-humanity that is not from God.

Stop doing that! has to be a part of the Obama message.

The Bosnians and Croats got along surfacely when Tito was alive. He told them if they fought he was going to kill them. They did, he did, they stopped, at least while he was looking. I know that is a great over-exaggeration and I say it somewhat tongue in cheek…but there is something to warring factions just being told to knock it off.

Michael, I totally agree with you. re God. More later.

Yes, there are also many Christians wrongly driven by hate, thinking it is the blessing of God. It is easy to recognize based on who is most harmed, and whether it is action based on “love” or “hate”. Religious law often creates and fuels that hatred, while religious love, regardless of religious law (for a christian a belief and relationship with Christ, driving that love), tells you when following the law is in-humane and hateful, and thus not from God.

So true Moonhowler, just like fighting “kids” need to be told to knock it off and play nice or go sit in a corner until you can be more civilized and compassionate to your sibling.

My mother used to tell us she was going to knock our heads together if we didn’t stop fighting. She did it a few times and it hurt like hell.

MH – you are right – that article in the Jewish Voice and Opinion really was a very balanced look at the whole situation and had a huge amount of detail on everyone’s opinions. I did not know some of the groups or leaders mentioned either – so it is a good lesson on current “geopolitics” I guess. Usually the articles in that paper – which a good friend of mine from college is the managing editor of – are very slanted toward the Jewish point of view – but this one was really a good fact gathering article just setting out all the facts listing everyone’s opinions – pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. It probably should be read by anyone who has an interest in this conflict. That paper is has a circulation of 80,000 – primarily Jewish readers of course, so is fairly widely read. One can see old issues of it going back the last 2 years in the archives on the website actually.

Michael – regarding merging of the two religions – that would never be possible. The Jewish religion has its own beliefs and practices. Anyway, I think (other than for conflicts like these that it causes) it is good that there are many religions. It is diversity just like everything else. Anyway, the Orthodox Jews would never agree to something like this. As far as they are concerned, Reformed Jews aren’t even “true” Jews because they don’t follow all the religious practices that you are supposed to, if you interpret the Old Testament and other Jewish religious documents (the Talmud especially) in a strict manner – that is rigorously following everything set out in them. I don’t see any merging of the Jewish religion with any other religion happening ever. Also, it would be ashame as there is many traditions that are “ethnically Jewish” that would be a terrible thing to lose. I’m speaking not just of strictly religious things, but also other things such as Yiddish, Jewish foods, etc. that have in some parts of the US found their way into mainstream society. While one might argue that these non-religious but ethnic Jewish things might not be lost, some of those things have been fading away as younger Jewish people lose a lot of their Jewish identity. In any event, regardless of all that, as I said above I don’t see any merger of the Jewish religion with any other religion (regardless if they believe in the “same God”) happening – I would say the chances of that are slim to none, being closer to none. Not in our lifetime anyway. Maybe somewhere in the distant future – anything could happen i guess.

Very intersting exchange here guys, I am enjoying reading.

I’ve been enjoying the discussion with MH and others and am learning a lot at the same time.

We’re not going to solve the problem but we’ll have some fun trying!

Good point, Gainesville. I have part 2 of this almost ready for press. I have taken the liberty of linking to those 2 articles, and giving you credit for finding them of course. I need to crank up another computer so I can put up a chart. For some strange reason, I cannot upload images to word press from this computer.

I agree about religion not merging. Jews and Muslims can no more merge than Jews and Christians or Christians and Muslims. Actually, I don’t think the actual faith is the bone of contention anyway. I believe the culture and the actual land is the problem. The religion just is a good excuse to do bad things.

Michael, you didn’t really mean religions forming in to one, did you? Doesn’t sound like something you would say.

Gainesville, it looks like Israel is catching hell now from the UN and from some other group and I cannot remember who…International Red Cross? Crescent? Here is my question: How can there NOT be civilians maimed when you have rockets embedded in civilian areas along a 20 miles stretch of land with over a million people living there?

I don’t fully understand the blockage I kept reading about. What is that all about?

OK MH, sounds good about you working on Part 2! Thanks for linking those articles in it, as I think everyone who is interested in this problem should read them.

You are right – religion is NOT the issue here. The main issue is each side thinks the land is “theirs” based on history. It really has nothing to do with religion so we can remove that from the equation. Cultural differences are probably part of it too.

However, i definitely agree with you that no two religions can merge.

I heard about what the UN had to say which was very critical of Israel. Did not hear about the International Red Cross or whomever (I think there is SOME organization like the Red Crescent but not sure who they are).

As you say, in ANY war really – civilians are going to be caught in the crossfire. This one is unfortunate as it is a very narrow strip of land packed with people. Many wars are more spread out and the military installations are more clearly separated from the civilian housing, etc. Civilians are being hit on the Israeli side too so I don’t know what the big deal is. I don’t know how they expect Israel to be able to precisely fire rockets in there and not have some civilian casualties unfortunately. No one seemed to care about that when they had people with bombs strapped to them going into supermarkets in Israel and blowing themselves up.

The blockage was an economic one that tried to choke off the flow of goods into that area, in an attempt to loosen Hamas’ grip on the region. I think at least that was the objective, and I think at least the Egyptians were cooperating. I might be wrong about some of the details – I really hadn’t followed that aspect very closely.

I didn’t know much about that at all and I meant to say blockade. I guess blockage worked though since we both knew what each other were talking about.

Several of the other articles I have read have stated how many of the Arab countries are really tired of Hamas and want them out of there. They are getting the people of Gaza killed. Plain and simple. No one can ask Israel just to ‘turn the other cheek.’ Aren’t there Palestinians living on the Israel side of the Gaza border getting shelled also?

We aren’t talking about the Wilderness, or Battle of the Bulge or Iwo Jima here. The Gaza Strip is teeming with people, many living in crowded conditions. Hamas and other terrorist groups plant those launchers right in the middle of heavily populated areas.

I do understand why people think this is hopeless. Maybe Obama can send Hillary in to slap all of them around. Bill Clinton was almost successful. Maybe she can take him with her.

The new thread is up. Little different info but same theme. We don’t have to change. Those were such great articles. And people do need to know. This situation has such an affect on all of us, even if not direct. And it has the potential to REALLY have an affect on all of us.