Anti-BVBL

Can we really be the the model of Democracy and Free Enterprise for the rest of the world and rely on foreighn companies to manufacture the autos that we drive on our roads? Something needs to be done to level the competitive playing field with foreign manufacturers. Throwing money at a bad situation doesn’t seem to be the answer. I think something like a chapter 11 restructuring would be the best answer.

Another stat worth noting:

Toyota’s CEO has a total compensation package worth less than $1 million per year. Toyota is showing profits.

GM’s CEO was given a 64% raise to total compensation worth more than $14 million per year while GM had been showing record losses each quarter.

Don’t just point at the unions. And that doesn’t even get into some of the bone-headed management decisions made by Detroit in the last two decades.

Yeah really, M-H, it’s not the unions. Both Toyota and GM have workers, and both are doing well. But Toyota has an innovative and visionary leader, and GM has a fat cat who has soaked the company dry, and now wants to soak the taxpayers dry.

I want the fat cats fired and replaced with 21st century leaders. We can’t afford the nation OR our largest industry to be led by aristocrats who just want to rob the American taxpayer and enrich their friends.

I meant to say BUT NOT BOTH are doing well, meaning not both car companies are doing well.

Romney has it spot on:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=2

I thought they weren’t going to do that? Feds change their minds?

Its both the Union and the Management that have driven these companies into the abyss. When your CEO makes millions as market share declines, there is a problem. And when GM has “job banks” (They had them from 1984 and I think they were removed in the last union talks but I could be mistaken) where idle union members make full pay for doing no work until jobs come back, well, both sides have contributed to the downfall.

The big three fought hard to push the higher gas mileage laws back to 2020. We need them now, but they were selling big SUVs at big profits. They didn’t want to stop.

Let me ask you this…if Target bought red coats and the public wanted green coats, would the taxpayers have to bail out Target so they could go buy green coats? Why should we pay $25 billion for retooling (that money has already been approved) when the Big 3 made poor business decisions??

Now they want another $25 billion to hold them over. This money is going towards wages and payments to the unions…GM’s largest debt. And will they come back for more cash?

Let them go to Chapter 11 bankruptcy and dump the union contracts and come out with government support for restructuring with a ton of strings attached to that $25 billion. Starting with court appointed management teams in all 3 companies. I don’t want to donate $25 Billion to the same sets of losers that got them into this mess.

I left off the overly paid management as a possible cause for the problems. Thanks for adding those people to the list. I don’t think there is just one cause.

I am not anti union but I don’t think that unions are necessarily the answer to free the poor worker in the 21st century. Continue on…I am enjoying reading the opinions.

I know of one overly paid management type from GM that got laid off last year. This individual was making peanuts compared to the big executive types, but highly overpaid to say the least. Folks, it truly could NOT have happened to a more deserving person. They have to now travel daily to Maryland from Fairfax.

There’s plenty more that need to hit the pavement too. GM, needs to act. These types of actions would help move themselves out of some their financial woes.

If Romney hadn’t gone anti-immigrant in the primary, and attacked McCain from that standpoint, he would have been a logical VP choice, and the GOP ticket would have been a viable ticket. Oh how the anti-immigrant extremists have led the party astray….

The CEO of GM flew to Washington on a private corporate jet to beg Congress for a taxpayer bail-out of $25 billion. Do you think he wants to take a pay cut?

All three CEO’s flew in on private jets, BTW.

The 3 private jets speak to the underlying root problem: entitlement.

Why couldn’t the rich bastards just fly first class?

In all of this bailout, regardless of what company we are talking about, has anyone offered to scale back their salary to say….$200k for the good of the company?

If the tax payers are funding them, they should get paid the same amount as the head of a government agency and no more.

I don’t disagree with that NGL.

Howevvaaaaa….what about all these contracts that exist with the retired GM workers. Aren’t there golf clubs and all sorts of benefits? Isn’t their health care paid for life? Can those things be taken away? I am just remembering bits and pieces of things I have heard.

If the big 3 go in to chapter 11, what happens to those people’s pensions? what happens to existing salaries?

There are way too many ‘what ifs’ here. Now I am hearing that the unions are saying we made you Obama and you owe us. I hate hearing that.

That was a pretty good piece by Romney, thanks for posting.

Not sure what everybody else thinks, but this stuff is very hard for me to wrap my head around.

Jason, I am in the same boat. That is the reason for the post…so we can kick it around.

I have the most awful feeling that once again the fat cats are the ones reaping the benefits in the end and that the little guy…those of us making less than a quarter of a million a year…are the ones who will pay and pay and pay.

And while we are at it, who can explain a hedge fund? What is the minimum amount to buy in? Does it disturb anyone else that so few people are controlling the world’s wealth?

M-H, I am not saying let’s not do it (this is exactly what I said about the damned Wall Street bailout). I think you are right that we need the American auto industry to survive. I have a lot of sympathy for the auto workers unions though, because in the past when the fat cat executives ran their companies into the ground while taking home million dollar bonuses, they would go to the unions and say, “Sorry, but you have to take a pay cut, and we have to cut your pensions, and we have to reduce your benefits, otherwise, you’ll all be out of work because our company is about to go belly up.”

So the unions take the deal, they would rather have less pay than have no pay at all.

Now the same fat cats are coming to Congress with their hands out. I’m sick and tired of regular working Americans having to pony up with the fat cats fail to run a solvent corporation while their primary focus is on enriching themselves and ripping off the taxpayer and the worker. Of course they failed to run a solvent company, it wasn’t their concern.

So get rid of these jerks and put in people who are prepared for the 21st century, not for the type of lobbying that kept the auto industry in the 20th century when we could have had electric cars two decades ago!

Has anyone seen the movie “Who Killed The Electric Car?” I have. And I’ll give you one guess who.

Haven’t you figured it out yet? America is just a chapter in the book of world history. Very little in this North American region symbolizes America as I remember it growing up. Pledge of allegiance, gone. English language predominant, going. History being rewritten to show that those south of the border built everything. History being rewritten to show that all those in power during the maturing of this country were just white abusive racists. Now even those who are financially successful are just selfish individuals. Pretty sad!

I can’t argue with SecondAlamo. By the way, When Budweiser sold out….that is when I knew America changed! LOL just kidding

Moon, I loved the title to this thread and caught myself singing the song at work.LOL

Anyway, this is for SecondAlamo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b6OnR_oyKM

Red Dawn

Clarification, I agree with SecondAlamo about the pledge being done away with but not necessarily the south of the border to blame. I blame our own Fed. Gov., for where we are now By the way EARLY merry CHRISTMAS lol

Damn!!! I was just getting ready to buy a new Chevy Impala. I love Chevy’s. My dad sold them for 40 years. It is sad to see how the “fat cats” have robbed us of three great automobile manufacturers. Don’t want to buy a car that may not have anyone to guarentee a warranty.

Maybe, we should ask who the fat cats are and how they got there.
Moon-howler brought up a good question, that I would like to know the answer to as well.

“And while we are at it, who can explain a hedge fund? What is the minimum amount to buy in? Does it disturb anyone else that so few people are controlling the world’s wealth?”

SecondAlamo,
Sounds like you have bought into this Post-America mentality. I just don’t see it at all. My kids, the kids of a formerly undocumented immigrant, love to sing the national anthem. We knew a girl who had been raised here who was undocumented and wanted to do JrROTC. The first KIA in Iraq was formerly undocumented. My point being there are a lot of undocumented people who feel this is now their home and want to give back.

Alanna,

I won’t speak for SecondAlamo, but I do agree that there is a problem of our history being re-written in what we were proud of in America such as saying merry Christmas but that is a whole different subject/thread. (politically correct crap - but ANGERS many)

Anyway, your comments made me think of a girl that I found by accident( she is far away but so close to this debate) and have learned to admire during this immigration debate. Some of you may remember her and I got a new youtube video update. Here is the latest video but I encourage all that have not already, take the time and view her videos.
She came as a child illegally, married her husband that serves(d) in the military, was deported and did the right thing. She documented her time of separation from her family here, found interest in our PWC debate and kept her promise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8dc18e5hGE

homepage:

http://www.youtube.com/user/carelesswhisper13

I am going to be a grinch at Second Alamo and his fan club. Where is the pledge not said? Go in to any Prince William County classroom in the morning and tell me what you hear. I think some of you all listen to too many conservative talk shows and don’t go to where these outrages are supposed to be happening.

Speaking of JR ROTC programs, who makes up the lion’s share of participants in these programs? Our here it is mostly Hispanic kids–giving back and also preparing for adulthood. Watch the various entries in the upcoming Christmas parade. Come back and tell me I am wrong.

Second Alamo, what ARE you reading? I have read nothing like that.

If we push people away, they will not want to be part of our culture. Welcome them in, and see the difference.

Lori Piestewa was the first woman KIA in the Iraq war. She is of Hopi and Mexican ancestory. She was born and raised in Tuba City, AZ which is in the Navajo Nation. I went there a couple of years ago to silently honor her. Native Americans join the military because of the unemployment rates around reservations.

Back to fat cats, I don’t think we are disssing financially successful people as much as we are scoffing at people who make a disproportionately large amount of money than the workers and who will never suffer the samne way the ordinary workers will. CEOs simply make too much money. Start with our own county. What does Dr. Walts make? That’s just what area superintendents make. But should they?

Yoo Hoo, I have never met or heard of anyone who wanted to stop saying Merry Christmas. There was a department store that wanted to switch to Happy Holidays as a way of greeting customers. This was not intended to punish or banish Christians. They just wanted to broaden the customer greeting so Jewish and Muslim and Buddhist people are included. Bill O’Reilly got a lot of his viewers upset about it, but other than that it was a non-event in the course of American history.

And yeah, the Pledge is still going strong.

No need to get upset about imagined outrages. There are enough actual ones to go around.

MH,

Sorry folks, but it’s a totally different place than it was even 25 years ago. Back then you didn’t have to repeat your question 3 times to get an understandably spoken answer from a store clerk. Nor did you have to change your culture to adapt to immigrant’s, it was the other way around as it should be. This has become the land of diversification and PC, not unity as in a unified culture and language. I can understand visiting a foreign country and being confused about the culture, and spoken and written language, but not in the country I was born and raised in. America can no longer be identified by its people but only by its geographic location in the world. Chevy used to be an American icon, now its been replaced by Honda and Toyota. Get my drift?

What’s wrong with me? I don’t care if stores wish me a Merry Christmas or not. How do they even know I celebrate Christmas. If they do, fine, if they don’t, fine. Not everyone does.

I would say Happy Holidays to be on the safe side. I felt that way long before political correctness became an issue. On the other hand, if someone says Merry Christmas and you aren’t a celebrator of Christmas, suck it up and get over it. For some, it is a seasonal holiday, for some it is a religious holiday and for many it is both.

NGL, good point about GM’s crazy decision to pull the EV-1 from happy leasing customers and smash all of the new innovative cars to junk metal. They were afraid it would eliminate their parts business, and reduce demand for oil, and gasoline (they feared that, did you ever wonder why?).

Now Honda and Toyota are entering the market with electric commuter cars and electric hybrids (for long distance), and solar panel technology for regional power stations, and the Prius electrical conversion package is selling and growing in popularity.

Poor GM, going bankrupt (and it should, along with the other 2), because the CEO(s) could not figure out how to make a near-term profit (and more stock options) from long term technical innovation.

I applaud Honda and Toyota innovation and initiative (we”ll all be moving to Asia soon if we want to keep a job).

Yes, America has “politically correctified” itself right back to the stone ages. It will get worse before it gets better as people feel sorry for people who are incapable of producing “skills” and “innovation” and refuse to reward the people who really make “competitive decisions and uphold legal ethics and values”.

We are doomed unless we go back to the ideas and concepts that made our nation great in the first place, rather than try to “socially engineer” the US and eventually the gullible people of the world into abject poverty and socialistic, autocratic, government.

I have always felt embarrassed if I said Merry Christmas to a non-Christian person. This goes back to childhood when I had two Jewish friends who seemed to wish they celebrated Christmas. It wasn’t that I had the better religion or culture, I had the better holiday. So I am known to say to people, “Muh-happy holidays!”

Buy some gold and silver just in case.

Huge sarcasm to follow here: “Why don’t we just cancel ALL holidays, and just let people celebrate their own “cultural holiday” in the safety and comfort of their own home and “culture”. Then no one will be “offended” because a majority of the population wants to maintain its existing culture.

You see, that’s the problem. Our culture was homogenous for the most part back years ago. Everyone and every store wished all a Merry Christmas because 95% or more of Americans were Christian. Now you’ve got to hold back saying anything for fear of, God forbid, offending someone. I’m sure the day will come when ‘In God We Trust’ will be stricken from our currency, because some group who originated from some other country and culture find it offensive. As I say, we’ve lost our identity and are too coward to defend it for fear of ‘offending’ some non-American culture who is taking advantage of our PC paralyzed culture to promote theirs
instead.

BTW, I own Honda’s and almost always have, they are a superior engineered car. I feel the same about Maytags (until they were bought out and re-engineered to break more often to sell more parts and labor).
Honda also makes a superior emergengy generator (the EU1000i,2000i and 3000i), that runs its 50cc engine with a load control for 8 hours (at 1/4 max output), and 4 hours at max output on 0.5 gallons of gas. Couple that with 12 of their new 350 Watt solar panels and you won’t need an electric company anymore, buy and electric car and you’ll never need gas anymore (except for very long 300 mile plus non-stop trips), and you could pretty much eliminate all the major oil companies, and gasoline hogging car manufacturers, air pollution, water pollutiuon and global warming in less than 5 years.

All for the same price of buying a new car!

Don’t be stupid people, convert now before you lose your “service” job to an oversees worker who innovates and now wants your “service and labor market too” at his standard of living wages. If you want to survive as a nation, “innovate” or die politically correct to the end.

BTW, the Japanese, Chinese, and most Asians could care less about other cultures. They are making sure their own culture survives and dominates the region and eventually the world, economically, politically and spiritually. Then we will finally get a metric system! God forbid we’ll also have to learn the most complex language(s) in the world. The harder they try the more they will succeed globally

Yes Michael, it’s called going out of business with integrity!

SA, I also believe there is too much political correctness. Silly stuff. On the other hand, how much of what we are talking about is just good manners? I remember some rather rude things happening in my youth that shouldn’t have happened.

India, just went to the moon, and China just put up three astronauts to the Space station, on its own launch systems. Any new funding for NASA and new “space research” by the US in the past 10 years? No, it all went to waging a religious fear war and building a 9 Trillion dollar WORLD social ENGINEERING politically correct deficit.
Asians to my knowledge have never been politically correct, they just build centuries lasting technically advanced empires.

SA I don’t see the integrity, just the going out of business. I think the loss of integrity and common culture as you point out is the root cause of our failure and continued world decline as a nation.

Our new motto: Divided we fall, united we might be able to stand again.

Their only “stutter” was “socialism and communism”, an ideology that plagues them today but is rapidly disappearing (Shanghai, now looks better than New York).

Greed - just like the banks - make the money we can now, and not worry about the future.

What have WE done to let our economy get to this point? We let someone convice us that we need new cars every two years, that we need bigger houses, we need to eat out, we need bigger tv’s, we need ipods, and the new cell phone, etc.

We have been living beyond out means (some of us), and now it is time to pay the piper, unfortunately, some of us will have to pay for the excess of others. It always irked me, that after someone went bankrupt, the first person they would go to after the judge closed the case, was the auto dealer for a new car.

When we fail globally to be the top economic world power anymore, (I give us 5-10 years max), then I will personally come and thank each of you “politically correct” social engineering advocates and advocates for your version of the “new American ideology” for doing such a superior job sympathizing with everyone but the majority who wants a strong and unified America. We will be a gaggle of excessively poor but highly diversified failures, who think we created “paradise”. Our Asian counterparts will laugh at our stupidity as we try to make their culture “politically correct” and fail too.

Yes, Pat greed and ignorance of a need for solid common values is exactly how we let our economy get to this point. Our ignorance of history will go down in history, and as FDR said a “date” which will live in “infamy” 2008 will become a “year” which will live in “infamy”.

And some of you advocates for racial, gender, ethnic, and religious pluralism, multi-culturalism AND DIVERSITY political correctness that DOES have a cultural and economic impact on a nation can say “And Weeeee Haaaylped!”

You forget we were a nation of “individuals” united under a common national culture and common law. That is what made us great and a great world economic power. We are no longer “individuals” nor “united”. WE (political correct advocates) only now want what we can get just for our own culture, gender, religion, race and ethnic group whether it causes economic collapse or not.

Each generation looks at its youth and throws up its hands and wonders how they will ever make it. There has been a lack of integrity for several decades now. Start with something simple, like not cheating. When I was in college, no one proctored tests. We were told honor was either black or white….no shades of gray. If anyone was caught, they got thrown out. There only had to be a few sacrificial lambs…we all learned and learned quickly. They weren’t kidding. Now kids feel entitled to look on your paper for answers. It doesn’t embarrass them. Cheating wasn’t a bad reflection on your parents.

So having said that, am I going to change, no. Has society? yes. What does that mean, I have no idea. The concept of academic ownership has changed? Software, film and movies are out there for the taking. The idea of taking anything that isn’t nailed down has definitely come to pass.

So how am I handling it? I bought a shredder and try to nail everything down. I don’t take classes and no one wants my answers. I don’t know how Asians feel about cheating. I know they, as a culture, value education a great deal more than most American kids.

Red Dawn,

Thanks for bringing Milly back. What a brave story! And she is in the Navy now.

There are no absolutes for sure!

They also value cultural unity, common language, corporate loyalty, honesty and integrity, work ethic, limited and controlled “change” in their society, a humble and non-agressive religion that values kindness more than hatefulness, they honor their parents and grandparents, value saving money, lawfullness over lawlessness, removre gangs, punish unlawful offenses severely, seek out illegals and deport them, and as you say avove all value intelligence, art, innovation, creativity, excellance and perfection.
It is what gives them economic competitive advantage, a desire to succeed and the integrity to do it like a “samuri”, with honor and justice, while winning the battle.

The lack of US integrity and “me first culture” started with a “youth” culture seeking diversity, independence from law, drugs, disorder over order and “socialistic, communistic” community values where everything was shared even THOUGH IT WAS NOT EARNED, a common hatred of government, hatred and distrust of people of power, people of competitive capitalistic industriousness, intellect, brains, and innovation were to be despised and hated as “not hip”.
Any wonder where our leading “social engineering advocates” came from, who have taken our nation to it’s present demise?

NGL,
you said

“Yoo Hoo, I have never met or heard of anyone who wanted to stop saying Merry Christmas. There was a department store that wanted to switch to Happy Holidays as a way of greeting customers. This was not intended to punish or banish Christians. They just wanted to broaden the customer greeting so Jewish and Muslim and Buddhist people are included. Bill O’Reilly got a lot of his viewers upset about it, but other than that it was a non-event in the course of American history.”

AND YOUR RIGHT, I THINK THAT WAS THE CASE BUT IT HAS STUCK IN MY HEAD AS AN INSULT.

“I have always felt embarrassed if I said Merry Christmas to a non-Christian person. This goes back to childhood when I had two Jewish friends who seemed to wish they celebrated Christmas. It wasn’t that I had the better religion or culture, I had the better holiday. So I am known to say to people, “Muh-happy holidays!””

THIS IS WHERE THE INSULT FEELING COMES INTO PLAY.

WHY where you embarrassed? The embarrassment that you feel/felt makes me feel like I should be embarrassed. The same embarrassment that I felt but more so NOW for being WHITE.
When will it end?
IT just seems as thought the AMERICAN values as a YOUNG nation are being stripped away and that is NOT freedom. Everyone headed up for a communist state. ( that was harsh but I feel it maybe true)
Think about how you would handle a situation like this as a parent…everyone is causing a tantrum, so we lock everyone down. FU#k that;) lol
I have learned to apologize ( and I do) form MY actions, not anyone else.

We have had an infusion from foreign “ethics” and 1970/80s social engineering “social/ethnic elitists” a “cultural ideology” that lacks ethics, defies laws, hates the majority, loves illegal behavior and honors the “outlaw” more than the “altruistic hero”.

If we refuse to change, we are doomed to a future economic and social failure we have never experienced before as a nation, worse than the great depression which was also caused by greed and lack of ethics of the 1920s “youth” culture.

This is also why we allow gang members to roam our streets “because it is not “illegal” to associate as a gang” and allow them to operate as a gang effectively enabling them to continue to increase drug crimes, and kill innocent people (recently an Asian killed) and then feel sorry that we might “discrimminate” against them if they happen to be a member of a minority culture as we prosecute them for the crime of murder.

This is the insanity of “political correctness” and “diversifying” a nation.

Michael,

You give reasons of why this and that. Do you still have hope for our country?

I will have to check for your response tomorrow…going to bed but how about this song….LOL I don’t know of anyone that would sing it right now LO

Good night everyone

NGL, from another thread/the other night- I did not have that song “hold me now” Thompson Twins on my list but that was a good one and a great memory

Michael, we ‘allowed’ gang members to roam our streets in the 20’s and 30’s also. They killed innocent people then. Gangs have been around since long before then and will probably continue to be around long after you and I are gone. Do I think it is a good thing? Oh hell no.

I am working on a thread about Lori Piestewa. In March, 2007 Squaw Mountain in Phoenix Valley was renamed Lori Piestewa Mountain. Is that political correctness? In 2007 there was actually a mountain named SQUAW MOUNTAIN? Jesus Christ! How effing insulting on so many levels. I cringed typing it. If that is political correctness, then bring it on.

Stay tuned.

forgot the video with my comment @ 23:36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knetbVx5A-Q

YooHoo, I feel embarrassed when I say “Merry Christmas” to a non-Christian for two reasons.

The first one has to do with entitlement, a word someone else mentioned earlier and got me thinking.

As a child, I can admit that I felt that the Christian faith was superior to other faiths. My friends who were not Christian seemed to wish they were Christian. (Maybe that was just me assuming they wanted to be like everyone else. During those days, I did wish I was white.) Anyway, as a child I felt embarrassed because religion separated me from my friends, and I felt embarrassed that I considered myself superior. Even as a child I understood that this was wrong. I felt sorry for my friends, but I knew they didn’t want me to feel sorry for them. So it was awkward and, well, embarrassing during the holidays. All for a really dumb reason which was that Christmas seemed like a more magical and exciting holiday than Hanukkah. We had reindeer and snowmen and Santa, and they had a wooden top and some candles. (Forgive me Elena!)

As an adult, I try not to think of any religion as being superior, just as I object to any race being superior. If I say “Merry Holidays” or something like that, my embarrassment comes from wondering if the other person is Christian, thinking they may not be, and then hoping they haven’t guessed that I am a flawed person who once and perhaps still thinks of the Christian faith as superior. I would be embarrassed if someone thought that of me. And, I would not want to insult anyone or hurt their feelings. And, I hate to have awkward moments. So I try to say “Happy holidays.”

Moon-Howler, you are good to be so patient with Michael and Second Alamo.

They have valid points to make and most of the time they are courteous. That’s all I ask. I talk back in my own way

Hmmm, well NGL, let me share my reaction to Christmas vs Chanukah. I always felt somewhat out of place in school, especially when I was in elementary school and we all sang Christmas songs. It was VERY weird for me. I only recall one other Jewish child in my class, and we weren’t that close, as friends that it is. I just simply felt left out, left out in a way that made me feel isolated from everyone else. It wasn’t so much I wanted to be Christian, it was that I wanted to make sure I was still accepted by my peers.

Yoo Hoo, it isn’t that you should feel like you can’t celebrate your holiday, it’s that everyone should simply be aware that not every person believes the way you do. Now I am not offended when someone says Merry Christmas or sends me Christmas cards, I am glad to be thought of. Christmas, to me, has turned into the true meaning of capitalism. It has lost much of its religious meaning, as far as I can tell, in the public forum that is. My husband isn’t Jewish, we have a Christmas tree and I lOVE decorating it! But we celebrate both in my house.

Marie, 19. November 2008, 19:01
I love Chevy’s. My dad sold them for 40 years.

Marie,
DITTO!! How wild. I wonder if our dad’s knew one another.

I’m a Chevy girl to the core. I’ve only had two vehicles in my life that weren’t Chevys. I had to MoPo cars, and there were fine, just not a Chevy. My dad and a friend had a collection of over 300 Corvairs. You sure don’t see those on the road very often.

Chris,
My dad worked for Rosenthal Chevrolet in Arlington. He also worked at Orisman for a short stint. He was General Manager at Rosenthal’s for a while. My dad knew just about every Chevy salesperson in the area. You know those guys kind of had a bond back in the day. Too bad my dad has passed on or I would ask if he knew your father.

I have owned a Chevy II, Malibu, Impala, Corvair and a Vega. Remember the Vega? It was really not a bright shining moment for Chevrolet.

My husband just bought a 1986 Chevy Camaro Iroc that he is planning to restore.

Marie,
OMG! My dad started as Orisman for a short stint too, and then to Rosenthal in Arlington for a couple of years, and then onto Jim McKay in Fairfax for the remainder. He did have to take a couple of years off at McKay’s and change pace for a couple of years after is first stroke. He worked in Purceville at Bill Martz. I also, have cousins that owned a Chevy dealership in WVA. I remember my dad getting pissed at my singing of Orisman’s catchy tune “you always get your way at Orisman Chevrolet”. McKay’s was known as the “little profit dealer”, and the bobble-heads of the “little profit dealer

My mom had a red hatchback Vega. We had Monte Carlos, Corvairs,and a van growing up.You saw the picture of the big bad van. It came from the Auto Show in DC.

My mom got so sick of her Vega breaking down while in a carpool it started smoking one day on her way home from Langley. She drove it straight to McKay’s where it blew up! Well, hello ‘74 Monte Carlo, and that car is still running and resides in WVA where you have to cross a mountain to go from town to town. I was the only one that didn’t have a Corvair, and never forgave my dad for that one. My father too has passed away.

corr: and *THEY HAD* bobble-heads of “little profit dealer” too.

Here’s a little reminder for Marie and Chris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZvQoPxhNs

I had no idea the title of this thread was linked to this song.

I’ve never seen that clip before, but I did know the song. I believe they used in several advertising campaigns. We had a model car of a new Chevy and it played this song.
Thanks, for the walk down memory lane. I’d almost forgotten about this song.

Elena,
I remember having a couple of Jewish classmates at Sudley Elem., and always felt sorry for them during the Christmas parties and gift exchanges. I also, had a Jehovah’s Witness classmate who couldn’t participate in birthday cupcakes for his classmates. I felt so sorry for him too. I didn’t feel sorry for them because they weren’t Christian. I did so because they really were left in a very awkward position(outcasts almost)Kids can be very cruel.

I worked with many Jewish friends in the 90’s at Hyatt hotels and several of them had Christian partners, and most of them were into decorating the tree. I always found that pretty neat. While working there I learned to use “happy holidays”. However, if someone wished me a Merry Christmas, I would then say Merry Christmas in return.

Elena, you said it beautifully. It’s so strange to flash back to grammar school with such clarity, because that is exactly how my two friends felt! They couldn’t express it to me. I couldn’t put it together in my own child’s brain. But that is exactly how I felt. Perhaps because I knew at the time what it was like to feel left out, I felt greater sympathy for them, and I even felt ashamed to be part of the established religion. We did sing that “dradle, dradle, dradle” song, not just Christmas songs. But as kids we all just want to fit in. We want to be normal and not different.

Chris,
That was beautifully put. I wonder, looking back, if my friends felt that kind of empathy for me

NGL,
I think I’ve given up on “normal”, thank G-d I’m an adult now and can appreciate being different ! I’ve come to the conclusion that sometimes being different is a good thing

I also have embraced being a minority, Elena. As a child it is a scary thing, but as adults we can and should learn to appreciate diversity. That includes appreciating difference in ourselves and in others.

As I type this, though, I wonder how our conversation is affecting those who often express deep anxiety about how they are beginning to notice changes to our society, which they feel are caused by newcomers whose differences are more visible than those of previous immigrants (back before we lifted the racial quotas on U.S. immigration). How do we reach out to those people and let them know that a diverse and inclusive society will embrace and include them as well? If we can convince them they won’t be left out, they will have no reason to fear immigration or any of the various changes our country is going through.

Before we start convincing them, NGL, we had better make sure what we are saying is true.

Oh my gosh! I am getting old. I remember the Dinah Shore clip and the Dinah Shore Show. Thanks for sharing MH.

Thanks MH, courtesy is paramount to an honest and thoughtful debate. I have no disagreement with you for wanting to rename a mountain after a fallen soldier. I do not think anything like that is normally just done for “political correctness” but for the very real need to honor those of great personal sacrifice for the rest of us.

I only have one disagreement with what I think you said, not even disagreement but an issue of perspective. Many words we find offensive today, for whatever slight they imply in the modern sense (usually a description of derogatory attributes for racial, gender, ethnic, religious hatred into good and bad association), they do not always have derogatory roots in the same modern context.

Squaw in my opinion is one of those words that has much more deprecative meaning today than it very likely did at the time your mountain was named. The movies gave the name its modern bad attribute description. Don’t hate the people who named the mountain, because the word likely had no meaning to them other than “indian wife”. To those who married indian women the term was possibly even one of love and affection to them at the time, even though it may simultaneously have been a derisive word to others who as a result of their own belief systems objected to inter-racial marriage (many, many early male pioneers fell in love with indian women, for the same reason many, many men today fall in love with indian women). They love the individual, regardless of race, religion, and ethnicity. Some could also say gender, but I personnaly struggle with that concept, but in no way condemn it, without knowing the individual’s personal emotions and what role genetics plays in that concept of love.
I don’t think all words today need the same “politically correct” scrutiny many are passionate about, but if it offends you go for it. I personally am extremely offended at any use of the word “cheapskate” “asshole”, “redneck”, or “jerk” as a highly derogative, gender biased hate word that has no legitimate representation of the value of any individual as a person. They are very rarely used to describe females. These words are used when one person does not get what they want as a gender and defines good and bad from self-defined “gender social attributes”. I fight that “politically correct battle” for the same reasons you fight yours.

M-H, There is only one small indication that a diverse and inclusive society with no ethnic majority might not be as tolerant as I am hoping. That indication would be the close-minded way in which some minorities look at the extending of equal rights to gays and lesbians.

I’m not sure if it’s a real story or another one of those hyped up media myths, but it has been implied that ethnic minorities are stingy about equality when it comes to sexual orientation.

When Whites become only 49.9 percent of our population, they may not be a majority, but they will easily be the largest majority. If it’s true as some people argue that minority groups today have too much influence compared to our numbers, I don’t see what would stop them from achieving an even greater amount of influence with 49.9 percent.

And my guess is that ethnic minorities are no more likely than whites to deny equal rights to gays and lesbians. And even if they were, I don’t see them ever attempting to deny rights to whites when they hit the 49.9 percet threshold.

Can you think of anything else to worry about?

I’m 42…I clearly remember being taught in grade school that our country’s demographics would look significantly different in 50 years. Well, we are about 15 years away from that 50 year mark, and, from my recollection, what I was taught was on the money…that Latino’s would be the largest minority in the USA by then. I clearly remember myself as a 7th and 8th grade student taking Spanish (not my strong suit, BTW…solid B- Spanish student and only made it through 3 years) PLEADING with my parents to let me drop Spanish “because when was I ever going to use it anyway?!!”

That’s a good one, isn’t it? Who knew I’d be marrying a Latino? We hardly had any Latino’s in the town I grew up in…I can only think of one. Anyway, I took Spanish again in college and got very good marks and I’ve been “proficient”, wouldn’t say fluent, for about 15 years.

The point is, the influx of Hispanic’s to the USA is not unexpected…it was being predicted back in the early 70’s when I was a student and we were ALL encouraged to take Spanish and not French in junior high because we were told we would need it…we just didn’t all believe it…or pay attention I guess.

NGL you hit the nail on the head “we all want to be normal and not different”. But why then do some people try so hard to be “different” and seperate themselves from common attributes and associations, create “diversity and multi-cultural concepts” by creating seperate religions, associating only with specific ethnicities, races, genders and cultures? If we want so bad to be “bormal” and not different”, why then do we try so hard to be different?

The answer is the very genisis of racial, ethnic, gender and religious hatred of others not like yourself.
I think you even answered that in your next contradictory post to what you said above.

“I also have embraced being a minority” Yet many will rant about how “evil” it is for anyone to embrace being a “majority”. You see the paradox?

If I went around proclaiming how “great” white people are, I also in the same breath imply that if you are not white you are not as great as I am. If I went around embracing “whiteness”, I would be called a member of the KKK, or a person of hatred. If I embraced my “race”, my gender, my religion or my ethnicity, I would be embracing my superiorty to others who do not belong to my self-proclaimed “greatness”.

Why do we try so hard to be different? Because we want to be thought of or to think of ourselves as better than others we define with other attributes not like ourselves. This allows us to “self-love”, while simultaneously dispising others who are not as “great” as we are.

How do we counter this “claim to greatness” by others? We demand to be the same, normal, and “not different”.

If we are fat, we satisfy our low-self esteem by proclaiming that “fat” is beautiful, all the time believing we are just as beautiful as everyone else. Why? Because we think beauty should not have any “attributes” for those who proclaim themselves to be more beautiful than others, or for admirers to proclaim any person more beautiful than another (like in a beauty pagent or modeling agency), because some people are so obsessively focused on how they look, fashion, glamor, beauty and admiration that they have low self esteem if anyone puts them in any attribute category other than “beautiful”. So is the answer to self proclaim that everyone is beautiful (identically the same), or that “differences” are beautiful? Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder is equalivalent to saying “whiteness” or “blackness” is in the eyes of the beholder.

If you hate beautiful people is that discriminatory? If you hate ugly or smart people is that discriminatory? If you demand “diversity” does that mean we must insist on and equal number of ugly, stupid and smart people in every population defined as “normal”, or is everyone equally smart, equally beautiful, equally ugly and equally stupid if we are to have true “equality”.

My answer to this paradox is this: Stop tooting your own horn and learn to treat everyone the same as an “individual” only. “individuals” are “different”, they are not “normal” there is no “average or non-average attribute” distribution of “individual” traits. If you do “embrace” yourself, do it only as an embrace of your “individuality”, not what ethnic, gender, race or religious group you belong to, because when you do, you show contempt for all others, despise all others and hate all others, who do not share your group attribute. That is the core behavior of racial, gender, ethnic, and religious hatred, when you “embrace” your group implying all others are beneath your group because of the “other” group attributes, and not their “individual” gifts.
As “individuals you can be both “different”, normal (because their is no normal) and the “same” because you can identify like characteristics with other “individuals”. As groups, self-embracing your “perfection” as a minority or majority, you can only cause hatred and contempt for “differences”.

The only legal “diversity” according to the supreme court is “individual diversity”. Equal opportunity for all “individuals”, but not equal outcomes for “groups”. Do none of you not realize the wisdom in that concept? The supreme court essentially abolished group attribute “self embracement”, privilege and special rights to “number balancing laws”.

They too realized that ALL ugly, smart, stupid and beautiful people have an “EQUAL” right to an opportunity, but not a legal right to equal outcomes. Diversty is a social engineering work around to this law that attempts to give groups more rights to “equal numerical outcomes” than ugly, smart, stupid, and beautiful individuals, that are each unique, different, and all deserve the same opportunity (not the same numbers), and not the same outcome, because not all individuals as a result of the decisions they make and the genetic gifts they were given, WILL achieve equal outcomes.

Twinade, I have only one point to make regarding your rationale for supporting Spanish in public schools. Why should you as a student have to choose ANY language over another? Why not Chinese? There are 1.5 billion or more Chinese on the planet, and within decades most of us will find better, more profitable jobs in China than here in the US. My only point is this, to communicate with the world your way, would require we all learn some 2500 different dialects. I personally think that is absurd, and the need to maintain 2500 different dialects for anything more than “historical curiosity and art” is also absurd. All languages will likely die within two more generations, except a common one.

The world only needs to study one language, a universal language that brings us all together, rather than apart. I would predict that language will be English, it could be Chinese and it could be Indian (hindu india).

Why are these languages not the prime studies in high school today, because the future financial domination of the world will likely be Chinese.
The emphasis we place on Spanish today is a result of people refusing to learn a common language, a politcal “self-embracement” more than a practical a-political skill.
My recommendation for students is if you MUST learn a second language, learn Chinese.

Twinade, you could have just as easily met and fell in love with a man from China. He would be equally loving, and less likely to be “illegal”. Most Chinese people are here “legally”. I met and fell in love with a woman from Thailand, should I have taken Thai and insisted it be taught in High School?

My wife and all of here other Asian and Hispanic friends can only “communicate” in English. Her hispanic friends do not speak Spanish to her. My hispanic friends do not speak Spanish to me.

I never said anything about recommending which languages should be spoken or taught…I did say we were ENCOURAGED to take Spanish, because of out of the three choices we had, Spanish, French and German, that was the language we were told would be most beneficial for us to learn down the road. I did not grow up in Fairfax County…I grew up in Western NY and having 3 language choices was great back then in Junior High. They phased out German by the time I got to high school…it was a small school system and the student’s certainly had no role in which languages were taught. I’m not insisting any certain language be taught…where did I say that? I didn’t want to take ANY foreign language in junior high and only took it through 9th grade, so I didn’t take any language in HS.

I didn’t imply you were insisting anything, only ignoring or omitting (unconsiously perhaps) that “Spanish” from my interpretation of your writing is not the most important language to learn now.

I believe most schools try to steer their students into career paths. That would be one reason for taking a foreign language. You might take Latin if you were planning a career in classics, archeology, biology, etc. You might take Russian if you wanted a career with the State Dept. You might take Spanish if you wanted a service related job. You might take Chinese for international trade or French just because you liked how it sounded.

Larger schools tend to have more course offerings. I sure don’t think the school should decide what foreign language you take unless it is a language sampler.

I like all beyond basic diplomas to require foreign language as a condition of graduation. Unfortunately, America is so huge you can go thousands of miles without the need to change languages. Europeans are not so fortunate. However, it makes them more universal because they simply cannot afford to be uni-languaged. I feel stunted because I have only studied 2 other foreign languages and am not proficient in either. However, I at least recognize they are being spoken.

Is there a ‘most important language’ to learn? I would say if you are an American, English is the most important language to learn. Too many Americans speak and write shoddy, lazy English. I am embarrassed for them.

Other than that, no. It depends on what you want to do with it.

But the schools do decide what they offer, and they do not currently offer the languages of the most populated peoples on the planet. At most most people find it reasonable to study one language and a back-up, very few can handle five or more. The emphasis in my opinion should be in the most universal and likely to be dominant world language. We can eventually ignore all others as they disappear.
Currently the only universal languages all “minorities” in this country can speak is “english”. IF you want to teach a second langage in High School it should be Chinese, then Indian.

I never said “important” either…I said “beneficial” or “useful”. I don’t know how that can be argued as the largest minority group in the US was predicted to be and will be Hispanics. Thus, the “usefulness” of being able to be bi-lingual in an area with a heavy concentration of English and Spanish speakers. Are you saying it would be more beneficial for a Dr’s office in Manassas to have a bilingual Chinese speaker than a bilingual Spanish speaker? I bet local Dr’s would beg to differ.

Your last sentence at 18:05 clearly implies that I was insisting something, because you related it back to yourself, didn’t you? You said you fell in love with a Thai woman, which is equal to me falling in love with a Latino man, and then you followed it up with “should I have insisted that Thai be spoken” or something like that. You aren’t getting my point, which is, a Hispanic minority majority had been projected for over 40 years and people like I think it was SA are saying the gool ‘ole USA just isn’t like it used to be and we were certainly never predicting what we have now…I’m saying it was predicted and taught in public schools in the 70’s.

Michael, other words have less significance in the past than they do today. It is because people no longer have to tolerate offensiveness. I am a firm believer in judging people during the times that they lived, rather than by today’s standards.

Now you aren’t going to like this next part, but I am dumbfounded at the sexism shown towards the 2 female candidates: Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin. It wasn’t horribly overt which makes it even worse.

When I was growing up, one of the cigarette commercials’ slogans was : You’ve come a long way baby. It was aimed at the feminist generation, I am sure. This past election reminded me of how far we haven’t come. I am not sure if men or younger women noticed. I would like to hear other people’s opinions.

In oreder the top three most populated nations:

China: 1.3 billion people
India: 1.2 Billion people
US: 300 million people (40 million Hispanic in the US, the majority which also speak English)

I argue those should be the top three languages taught in school. Especially since China and India will likely be the next dominant economic powers within decades.

And maybe this is what is taught now in schools for the prediction of what the future will be like at a given time. My only point was that the predictions made 40 years ago were accurate in forecasting the current immigration levels to the US.

All people have to tolerate offensiveness to a degree, especially when no overt offense is deliberate. We also have to tolerate different customs, even when different customs offend us. Sexism, from my perspective and experience has two forms, intentional sexism and unintentional sexism. What makes the difference in my mind is the harm done to an individual, the statement that harm has been done on an individual, by individual basis, and the attempt by an individual once informed of an individual’s offensive sensitivitiy to not treat that individual the same intentionally and with malice. For the same reason I have found “comments” or “advances” I might risk with one woman, are not offensive to others. It is only when I find out what the individual “wishes” that I can make a decision how to interact with them comfortably. For this very reason, you cann ot find a “norm” for acceptable behavior by men toward women, any more than a man can insist of a “normal” behavior of women toward him. Policitacally correct hatred in my opinion just drives more men to ignore more women, at even the slightest hint they might claim “injustice” where none was deliberate or even conceptualized. There are actually more “victims” than their are “offenders” now by a very large percentage.
I saw some sexism, but I aslo saw hype and hyperbole, even sexism toward males, missed by many who watched the debates.

I don’t think Chinese and Hindu are the primary “elective” languages taught in US public schools today.

I think the predictions that I remember were from National Geographic only from the last 2000 census, and I remember that only in the last 10 years because of the “studies” of the growing “influx” of “illegals into our country”. If we had war in China, or the Chinese rejected socialism and communisim earlier, it could just as easily have been a diaspora of Chinese of some 40 million people to the US in the past 20 years, no one can predict that far ahead with any accuracy. I do not remember this prediction in High School, though you may.

One interesting observation I have seen and experienced is the younger you are the less you are concerned about “sexism” and the more “true” two-way “equality” you demand in the relationship you have. The older you are, the more “offended” you are at all forms of percieved or real sexism and the more insistant you are on “unequal” one-way equality behaviors in the relationship (security, finances, roles, social biases, etc.) The most angry women I encountered were the women who were over 35 and less than 50. At 45, I stayed away from them the most, and tested each individual carefully for their anger, self-esteem, and “insanity” factor before entering into any relationship or even a date. There were great differences in how I was treated depending on the ethnicity of the woman I dated as well. The further away from the US the culture was, the better I was treated with emotion and kindness.

This has been a good debate tonight with many good comments by NGL, Twinade and MH. Thanks to all for being courteous, in your disagreement. Such consideration for dissenting opinion is very appreciated. All arguments must stand on their own intellectual and not emotional merit, so I appreciate the honest and courteous dialog.

Night all…

This unique industry has thousands and thousands of other small businesses dependent soley upon these manufacturers. While I agree that the ‘fat cats’ are not taking their hits, and we are paying for their bad decisions, I think the impact goes much further than the just the auto manufacturers. This might be an unintended consequence of not bailing them out.

I do agree, Mando, that Romney makes a good point about restructuring.

Juturna is right. The unintended consequences are staggering when one looks at the other businesses that exist because of the automobile industry. I don’t think this country is ready for the type of unemployment that letting the big 3 fold would bring about.

If we are ending a war, what becomes of all those people? Isn’t this sort of the opposite of what happened in the 30’s and 40’s?

Michael, I’m afraid I will never comprehend what you are trying to say about differences. As a person of color, all I can do is try to clarify where I am coming from. The word “embrace” is a delicate word for me. What I’m saying here is that growing up in a mostly white area, there was a desire in me as a child to be white so that I would fit in. I’m not ashamed of that. It was just there.

Having an identity as a person of color was not a choice for me, however. Even though my parents did not stress this AT ALL in my upbringing, my peers made it clear to me that they saw me as different. And again, at that age, you are very much shaped by what your peers think of you. A lot of the time it was an innocent remark, even something said out of admiration for someone on TV who was Black, but the assumption was that I was somehow more connected to it than the other kids.

I say this because I want you to understand that people of color don’t really have a choice about their identity. We really only have two choices. We can pretend to be someone else, or we can embrace who we are. I think it is sad when people of color pretend to be someone else, because that means they are rejecting who they are. It means they are somehow ashamed of who they are. Once we outgrow a child’s need to fit in, most people of color decide to embrace who we are. And, when we learn about our history and culture, we even become proud.

Now, I understand that when you are reading this you are thinking “what about American culture?” My answer is that Black culture is part of American culture. That’s what makes it great, that American culture represents many cultures that add up to more then the sum of its parts.

You are probably also thinking, “Why can’t white people be proud of their heritage without being accused of racism or snobbery?” I think that white people SHOULD be proud of their heritage. I would encourage it. If they trace roots to Ireland or Germany or England, then it would be great for them to learn about those countries and their family history of coming here. It his part of how they create their individual identities. And, I do not at all feel threatened by their taking pride in who they are.

I do get sensitive when white people talk about American history or American culture but are reluctant to include people of color. That’s why this “Real America” and “Real Virginia” b.s. got on my nerves. I don’t know any Black people who feel like their neighborhood is “ruined” when white people move in. In fact, I think we prefer to have things mixed up and more diverse. But I am a little sensitive when I hear people say their neighborhood was ruined by having a person of color move in.

But at the end of the day, I would say it’s great for white people to learn about and be proud of their heritage. It’s okay for them to prefer to live in homogeneous white communities. But it’s not okay to institutionalize that preference, by forming “covenants” that bar the selling of houses to people of color (something the courts overturned a half century ago).

As someone who married outside your race, Michael, you can consider yourself part of the new generation of Americans with mixed families and a multi-ethnic group of friends. You can make that your identity and at the same time leave room for those of us who do the exact same thing, but happen to be people of color who chose the “embrace” rather than the “pretend to be someone else” route.

NGL, that was a really well written group of comments.

Thank you Mr. Duck!

NGL and Elena,

Re: My question of feeling embarrassed about wishing Merry Christmas (Red Dawn, 19. November 2008, 23:03)and your responses @NotGregLeteicq, 19. November 2008, 23:36andElena, 20. November 2008, 7:13
.
I get and SHARE BOTH of your views!

Here is the deal.
I grew up in a Christian family. Lived it to the EXTREME as in, I started school( private Christian school-not many around or could afford in those days-Fairfax, to boot) when I was 3/4 all the way up until the last part of my 5th grad year.
We also went to church there. Every service you can think of, plus, my parents were involved in the bus driving & visitation ministries , etc. etc.
I was FILLED up from the FLOOR up with church!!!
The church, at that time was so ridiculous that if you were caught at the MOVIES….bawahaaaa , dancing, wearing PANTS as a woman… you name it???!!!! you were living worldly and in sin.
It wasn’t a church were you handled snakes, or the one where you can’t wear make-up and cut your hair….but it was close. IT was called PLAYING church.
It was fake.
The only judgment that was REAL,was the congregation judgment of and who had the Gucci bag-, etc. The church was full of money makers and shaker and it was just gross back then and confirmed when later it became known that the pastor was having an affair with this person and find out that another person was having and yet another…..

BOTTOM line ( in my ramble) I grew up in that atmosphere, had to make MY own choices and during those times as a child and anyone that listened to rock music was going to hell (LOL!!!)! LEARNED COMPASSION and understanding of being different.The church was against us celebrating Halloween!!! My parents started to see the light of what we were under and we left that church ( it was never considered an occult or anything but we have remained friends with some of the families that we went to church with and WOW! Some have remained the same but the majority realized to always be aware of your heart and surroundings. This is why I choose not to go to ANY church but do have the scripture in my heart and the ultimate decision was MINE to believe or not AND all the MORE reason why I stand behind the truth that it is a PERSONAL relationship with God and no other. The reason why I can’t stand behind someone running on a political platform with and use God as a weapon. If it FAKE in church, it is fake during the campaign etc.

Okay, NOW that I REALLY, REALLY RAMBLED, I have to say that Christmas is a holiday that is celebrated in the USA ( elsewhere, fine) NOT EVERYONE that celebrates Christmas is a Christian or has any religious faith!!!! So why focus on Christmas, when I am not Irish ( that I know of) and can celebrate St.Patrick’s day or Cinco DeMayo???

It is on the calender just like Veterans day, ground hog day…WHY does Christmas have to be a target of PC BS? I do not go to unchristian people and wish the merry Christmas, I wish everyone the same. It is not up to me to know if they are a Christian or not. It is just a holiday that has holy meaning or NOT!?

I think that will do it as I have a hard time expressing my thoughts. LOL

Red Dawn

ANd get to lazy to proof read …such a REBEL and know you know why and love to question everything/want to know WHY!!! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUBPUZfexcY

Cheers

Yoo Hoo…sure never pegged you as a Christian school student!

Did anyone else read the article in the Post (I think it was last weekend) about the pastor of some church in Loudoun? I could not believe what I read…that some people can be that swayed by what their pastor claims. Here are some highlights:

1. If a spouse or child decides not to continue going to church there, this pastor encourages the other spouse to divorce the betrayer and also urges the parents to kick out their “sinner” children.

2. Everyone who goes there has to send their child to the school they run.

3. MUST tithe 10%…one person interviewed said the Dad lost his job and stopped tithing and the church was making them submit their finances to the church to review since they weren’t tithing.

4. 6 days after the pastor’s wife died of cancer, he announced that God was directing him to take a wife (virgin of course) from the congregation. A “lucky” 20 year old girl was chosen.

5. He travels the Nascar circuit and uses church funds for it.

There were a lot more just absolutely ludicrous “teachings”. What a phony.

Yoo Hoo…sure never pegged you as a Christian school student!

LOL!!!! I can see the irony in that statement!
Cheers. I am who I am …oh no…didn’t someone already say that? LOL

It comes down to INTENT/HEART period. PEOPLE are going to do what they want to do. It is only HUMAN nature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmCWLYsSOjg

LOL

Yoo Hoo,
Is that church/school still in existence that you attended? I’m glad there wasn’t any snake handling. I attended Manassas Christian where all denominations of Christians attended, even some Catholics too. It was not near as rigid as your church school. Although, girls were not allowed to wear pants or shorts.

TWINAD,
WOW!! I’ve got to see that article. Those highlights you posted have left me speechless.
How hypocritical along with phony. I think this kind of crap is what keeps a lot of Christians away from church. I’m with YOO HOO, a person’s relationship with God is personal. I’m not putting churches down, but I will say some of the most mean spirited behavior I’ve witnessed in my life has been with church members amongst themselves.

I’m off to look for that article now. Thanks, for the “enlightenment” of what’s going on in Loudoun.

Chris,

Did you find it? Here is the link if you couldn’t. As MH would say: “UFB”.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/15/AR2008111502626.html

TWINAD,
Thank you very much. I’m going to study circles this morning. I’m sure I’ll have something more to say after reading that article.

I think MH, picked up UFB, from me. Well, if it wasn’t her I know another person who sure did.

Twinad, that was a horrifying article. It probably goes on all the time and people like me just aren’t aware of it. It sure makes you understand Jim Jones Kool aid better.

Chris, it is pretty hard to find an expression that has one of those letters in it that I haven’t said. I had never abreviated it before. THAT I got from you. I know someone else who picked up that bad habit from you though

TWINAD/MH,
YIKES!! How out there can you be? This article is very saddening and maddening at the same time. I wonder if we have “churches” like this in our county?

There’s been major permanent damage done over the years at this place. Those poor kids that didn’t “look the part” with ropes tied to them to make them run faster.

This part really freaks me out is the confirmation of speaking in tongues.

“Now, Scott’s church practices its own theology, a blend of evangelicalism and fundamentalism. Services are demonstrative, with contemporary music and people speaking in tongues.”

MH,
Be careful “bad habits are contagious”

It is truly sickening. I re-read it and noticed I got some of my “facts” wrong…he did not announce he was marrying the 20 year old virgin 6 days after his wife died…it was 19 days. He married her 6 days after he informed the congregation that he was going to marry a virgin congregant…although I got it slightly wrong, I still think…BFD! It’s horrible! Yes, and I can’t believe I forgot to mention the part about the overweight kids…yikes! And making kids that misbehaved or something dig, fill in and redig holes???? During school hours? Shudder.