WP: Facing a Court Hearing, Man Begins Removing Pro-Immigrant Billboard
September 5th, 2008
Thanks to Poor Richard for pointing this one out.
Apparently, the sign has come down just in time for Mr. Fernandez’s court appearance today.
Facing a Court Hearing, Man Begins Removing Pro-Immigrant Billboard
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090403620.html
Categories: 9500 Liberty Street
This is a metaphor for the whole illegal immigration phenomenon. In time, most aliens will self-deport when we maintain rule of law and politicians stop holding out the Amnesty option.
I’ve never said that it can’t be done. What I question are the costs and benefits. I think what most people are missing is that probably a majority of the people that are here probably will have grounds to return. So, what do we get out of this? I’m sure you’ll say something like the rule of law will be maintained. okay but obviously if we just enforce it then it works, so you make Twindad’s husband leave so that he can return? Stupid policy.
Also, when is someone going to fix the problem that it takes 5-15 years to process someone’s paperwork? or the problem with having sufficient labor? or the host of other non-enforcement issues that have driven this problem in the first place? if those underlying problems aren’t resolved then we’re still suffering.
The man made his point and then moved on.
I can’t wait to drive down Liberty Street as I do every Friday, and see the sign gone. I hope this means the reamining wall of the house will finally be taken down too.
Yes, the point needed to be made, and it was made courageously. Neither our laws nor our police force should be abused by an angry mob to target or intimidate those they feel are not welcome and not entitled to equal protection under that law. What happened here in 2007 was un-American, and the sign reminded us of that.
However, the sign should have come down on April 30, 2008. The day after the Immigration Resolution was neutered.
The sign never bothered me. It was an example of our 1st Amendment rights. Only in the US do we have such a liberty. Fitting that the sign was on the corner of Liberty St.
I did think at some point the sign needed to come down, not because it bothered me, or because of its message but because it continued to fan the flames of the HSM group and allowed them to continue to spew their hate.
Marie,
The freedom of speech was not the violation or problem for me. It’s the zoning laws that have been violated. The remaining wall of must now come down too.
The sign was a zoning violation. Rules that we, as a society, all have to follow. There are other legal methods to use his 1st Amendment rights to get his message across.
Marie, if Mr. Ferndandez had built a 12′ x 40′ sign advertising cars for sale in the same location, would you be ok with that? Its the zoning laws that apply, regardless of the messages. He should have followed the laws like everyone else.
I agree the sign should have come down after the April 29th “snip-snip.” But by that point I’m sure Mr. Fernandez just wanted to resist the powers that be as long as he could.
If you look at legal history around the States, the majority has always tried to use the law to oppress minorities. Not far from that wall there is a courthouse that still has two mens rooms and two ladies rooms. Can anyone guess why?
We have to let go of the idea that “the law” belongs to only one class of people, and not to the rest of us. On this front, I think we are making progress as a nation, and of that I am proud and thankful. Mr. Fernandez’ decision to exercise free speech helped us all find our voices, and helped us make progress in PWC.
I also agree that the sign allowed Gospel Greg and his HSM clones to have something visible to hate and make themselves angry about. But if you haven’t noticed, they tend to find SOMETHING to hate and make themselves angry about, every day of their lives, bless their souls. Mexican Americans and other people of color didn’t have a voice in this matter until the sign went up. And even though it’s down now, we’ll remember it as a symbol of all those who stood up to injustace, in this cause and in others.
Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that only people of color were offended by the Duecaster Disaster (Immigration Resolution).
Lucky, If Mr. Ferndandez had built a 12′ x 40′ sign advertising cars for sale in the same location, it would be ok with me if the property were zoned commercial and the land use permitted it.
Here is the sticky wicket about the sign which may or may not be intrepreted as a zoning violation.
The City of Manassas Zoning Ordinance
Section 130-127 – Signs Not Requiring a Permit
#11 Political signs on private property
I assume this is why Mr. Fernandez felt it was in his rights to display the sign. Maybe the ordinance needs to be amended. I believe this ordinance was last updated in 2003.
“This is a metaphor for the whole illegal immigration phenomenon.”
How true and not only in its demise.
I think Mr. Fernandez’s actions of removing the sign the day before his court date gives you an indication of which way he (or his attorney) felt the law applied to his sign.
Lucky Duck,
I agree. The timing is everything.
Talk about waiting ’til the eleventh hour.
Good ridence to the sign. I hope we don’t have to continue to look at the remaining wall of the house for another year.
Marie,
The sign was attached to a wall of a building that had a demolition permit. The demolition of the house was never completed, and that’s a direct violation of the demolition order/permit. That still needs to be addressed.
So, all this time the problem wasn’t with the sign itself but with the structure it was attached to? Wouldn’t know it from the HSM clones behavior, comparing this to illegal immigration and all.
This is a poor metaphor for illegal immigration in my view, since the Fernandez family are AMERICAN CITIZENS and the only connection people draw to immigration at all is due to their ethnicity.
If a white person had put up the sign, would this be a “metaphor” for immigration?
Doubt it.
But if a white person or a black person put it up, it would still be a zoning violation and they would be subjected to the same law as Mr. Fernandez. Regardless of the sign’s content and the owner’s race or ethnic background, it was a violation.
And the fact that Mr. Fernandez took it down the day before his court date tells me that he and his attorney felt the court would rule against him and the zoning law did, in fact, apply to his sign. He should have taken it down months ago. It was an eyesore to those residents that live in a residental zone.
As of 10 A.M. this morning, the entire structure had been removed. The only thing left was a flag and I beleive, one porta-john. BTW, does anyone remember the situation in our community a year ago. How many people were speaking out about the “Resolution”, HSM, the ILRI or GL last year before this sign went up. He was the first to speak up in opposition. We owe him recognition for that.
NotGL,
Zoning has always been the problem for me, and it is an eyesore. It doesn’t matter to me what the sign said. I’ve told many this over the past year. I would still think it was an eyesore if it said Manassas & PWC is great.
Zoning laws don’t know the color, gender, religion, etc. of those that violate the zoning laws.
Lucky,
It was also an eyesore to all of those passengers travelling on the train.
For the core readership of this blog, the sign was apparently a symbol of
their feelings, material for wannabe film makers, and a salve for Fernandez’s
often misguided but enormous ego.
It was also great publicity for HSM, a poke in the eye of Old Town Manassas and for
a historic Afro-American community plus highly counter productive if the intent
was to build empathy and understanding for local immigrants (documented or not).
Know Greg L., no matter what he post, is really sad to see it go.
I agree Letiecq is sad to see it go but there are still brown people in his neighborhood. Chris, I hear you, but you are in the minority in terms of objecting to the sign. Most objected to the messenger. Latinos are not welcome in their eyes and neither is their right to free speech.
They want running to the zoning laws, found political signs were protected, but kept digging for some other way to exploit the law in order to silence him.
Well, he outlasted that ubconstitutional Resolution by four months.
PoorRichard,
My take was that Mr. Fernandez saw what he believed to be an injustice and acted. I don’t think it was his ego that motivated him. In terms of the message/sign, I have consistently said that I though it was a mechanism for them to communicate a message. Their side has had a hard time effectively communicating, they have not been fully included in the decision making process at the local government level, and the ‘wall’ seems to have served a purpose in atleast letting their voices be heard. I’ve even gone as far as to suggest that it perhaps has served as a type of safety valve where their frustrations were allowed to be vented.
Second, the ‘wannabe film maker’ swipe is laughable.
Annabel’s resume – found here – http://www.kascon22.org/?page_id=14
Eric’s resume – found here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Byler
By the way, where’s Letiecq’s resume?
Mr. Fernandez created an injustice to the citizens of Manassas. He and
the filmmakers slandered our community for their own gain and recognition.
They have given nothing to the common good, but taken much.
“They have given nothing to the common good, but taken much.”
And like the sign, once chance for publicity is gone, they too will be gone if not already.
Eric Byler’s Wkipedia entry? Hahahahahahahahha OMG I wonder who types that stuff in. This is too funny.
Let’s have a pi**ing party tonight and go pi** all over Fernandez’ lawn. Oh, wait. We are American and speak English, we might get in trouble for loitering and public urination.
Maybe we can hire some day laborers to do it for us?
It’s about time the sign came down (should have come down long ago). I’m happy for the people that live in that area because they no longer have to see that hate filled rhetoric every day.
Hi Alanna, you said “Their side has had a hard time effectively communicating, they have not been fully included in the decision making process at the local government level”.
Who exactly are you talking about? Are you referring to illegal immigrants? If so, why in the world would someone who is in this country illegally be included in any decision of government on any level?
Rick,
Once again you sound incredibly racist. If you want to appear as though this is broader issue, please refrain from insulting latinos.
Poor Richard,
Exaclty what are you referring to when you say 9500Liberty filmmakers have slandered PW? As far as I am concerned, Greg Letique and his ilk, along with two key elected officials slandered our county, 9500Liberty simply documented it!
Hi Elena, you said “two key elected officials slandered our county”, how? By actually doing something about illegal immigration instead of the standard look the other way method? I’ve got no issues with what you said about Greg but saying “two key elected officials” makes no sense to me. They were elected to do a job and they did the job we asked them to do.
I don’t see how the filmmakers slandered our community. Some members of our community are responsible for the reputation PWC has earned. The filmmakers merely documented what PWC and City of Manassas residents were all too willing to say in public.
The sign didn’t bother me in that it was a good history lesson learned locally. It could have been more polished but the emotions were raw and with reason. It featured building and zoning code enforcement, freedom of speech, David vs. Goliath, push and shove, action and reaction, neighborhood bigots and bullies, pandering politicians,political heroes, public discourse, unity against xenophobia,and on and on and on.
Haha. On the SPLC’s website.
I disagree 100% Hello. They were not elected to handle a federal issue, spurned on by a Nativist and a Hate group like FAIR. There was absolutely NO due diligence regarding the consequences of illegal immigration OR the possible negative consequences of the resolution. Good Lord, I put more effort into my college research papers than Corey and John put into garnering a holisitic view of illegal immigration, HSM, and FAIR.
“The sign didn’t bother me in that it was a good history lesson learned locally.”
And I assume you conveniently do not live near the “sign” (it was the side of a condemned house) nor the trashy property it sat upon?
Censored – You are on point!!!! Good post.
Hi Hello,
HSM represensted half of a half of a percent in this county. The public hearing demonstrated that there was clearly an overwhelming majority of people that were opposed to the resolution. Now, because people law lantino faces, they were dismissed because we all know after all, they must have been “illegals”.
You should go look at the video with Linda Chavez when she asks Corey ” where is your empircal research and evidence regarding illegal immigration” and Corey’s reply is ” comments from the community is my evidence” or something to that effect. WHAT? That is how government is run these days, you take a poll from citizens, and decide that is the proper way to make public policy, which by the way, a policy that has cost us millions of dollars.
“They were not elected to handle a federal issue, spurned on by a Nativist and a Hate group like FAIR.”
You’re right. They were elected to finally do something about the illegal aliens that were beginning to overrun PWC instead of looking the other way and saying it’s a federal issue. They made that pretty clear when they were campaigning. Citizens believed them and they delivered.
“WHAT? That is how government is run these days, you take a poll from citizens, and decide that is the proper way to make public policy, which by the way, a policy that has cost us millions of dollars.”
Imagine that… a publicly elected official listening to the constituents that voted him into office. wow!
Mando,
You can’t seriously believe that a few vocal voices should control government? The the role of government is to determine effective policy for all its citizens, that it is their responsiblity to research and investigate new policies that will bring a huge tax burden onto its constiuents, and that they are responsible to all citizens to determine good policy not just a half of a half a percent.
Yes, the idea of a HATE group, founded by a guy who has demonstrated he is a white supremicist is NOT the person I want influencing policy for my county.
Elena, I see, so citizens voices shouldn’t be listened to by their elected officials according to you. Interesting…
Please Elena, you said “You can’t seriously believe that a few vocal voices should control government”. You and I both know that isn’t true. I never heard of Greg, BVBL, HSM or any other group before casting my vote in support of Corey. I would be willing to bet that most everyone that voted for Corey never heard of Greg or HSM. You seem to think that Greg is some sort of bigger than life person who controls local politics and your wrong. HSM doesn’t even have that many members, I think people here need to realize that a majority of PWC citizens support the resolution and it has nothing to do with Greg or HSM.
Elena,
You can’t seriously believe that a few vocal voices somehow elected officials whom made their stance on illegal immigration obvious during their campaigning? Do you think it was some kind of conspiracy?
The City of Manassas certainly has its own set of challenges and consequently
doesn’t need to import any from PWC.
Greg L. lives in PWC, but, sadly for us, named his group Help Save Manassas -
even when most of the members and issues are from PWC.
Mr. Fernandez also lives in PWC and, in the few brief conversations I’ve had
with him, it became clear that his major gripes are with PWC. Where does he put
his ugly sign? The heart of the City of Manassas.
In the postings on this blog, people mingle PWC and Manassas City even though they
are two separate jurisdictions.
PWC residents, take your PWC fights outside the city limits — please!
“And I assume you conveniently do not live near the “sign” (it was the side of a condemned house) nor the trashy property it sat upon?”
Mando, I could count on one hand the number of residences that would actually catch a glimpse of that sign. It’s mainly surrounded by the Museum and a parking lot.
Mando and hello, I’m sure you know that there was no public hearing about the resolution. If you count the mass turnout for Citizens Time, then HSM and cohorts were vastly outnumbered. As far as the fall elections, other than Corey’s signs and people in Stirrup’s district, I think few people outside HSM viewed the results as a mandate on immigration. Even my Republican friends who voted for Stewart said that immigration didn’t register on their radar. They were more concerned with residential growth.
Poor Richard, I think the “definition of family” puts the City in the spotlight as well.
Hi Censored, that’s fine if immigration didn’t register with your Republican buddies but it registered big time with just about everyone I know (that lives in the area). I live on rt.1 near the parkway, maybe it didn’t register with your buddies because they don’t see the effects every day.
@censored
Concerning the “sign” and it’s proximity to residentual areas. Wow. You don’t get into Manassas much do you?
Concerning the mandate on illegal immigration, wow again. All I can think is that your head was in the sand. 90% of the flyers I got in my mailbox, FROM BOTH SIDES, specifically stated stances on illegal immigration and how candidates were going to confront it. Not to mention TV adds, newspaper articles, etc. Just wow.
Mando, how many houses are near enough to see the sign? Three?
I think most of my friends who saw those flyers figured that it was an election year gimmick and immigration was best handled by the feds.
well, how is that working out so far (feds handling immigration)… not so good huh. You can’t always just sit around and wait for the feds to do everything.
“Mando, how many houses are near enough to see the sign? Three?”
How many residents have to drive by the “sign”? I’d say there are probably well over 500 within a 2 mile radius considering the 3 or 4 condo complexes, townhouses, and single family houses. Just because one doesn’t have to see it when they wake up in the morning looking out the window doesn’t mean they don’t have to see it when they have to drive about taking care of daily business. I know a few people that live in Sandalwood, less then a mile from the eyesore, that HAVE to drive by it on a daily basis. They pretty much ignored the “sign” after a while, but did complain about the shindigs on the property.
“I think most of my friends who saw those flyers figured that it was an election year gimmick and immigration was best handled by the feds.”
Sorry to say, but your friends do not represent the majority populace of PWC that voted for Stewart specifically for his stance on illegal immigration. The only one that screwed the pooch that got ellected was Colgan and even he shared Stewart’s conviction… until after the elections of course. Plus he’s a fixture in PWC. He was actually a neighbor of mine for a few years MANY years ago. Now his old house is a flop-house. Go figure.
Perhaps this is the time to ask what exactly WAS done about illegal immigration. How have things changed as a direct result of electing those 2 key elected officials?
As I drove my usual route across town today, I saw lots of ‘brown faces at the bus stop.’ (someone else’s words, NOT mine) No change there.
I saw lots of foreclosure notices on doors and lots of for sale signs in front of empty houses. Not sure sure that is the change we wanted.
Yes, I am implying all of this was bs and bluster. We have spent money we do not have and have gotten nothing in return. We have gotten nothing that wasn’t handled by the 287g program.
Please! Someone explain what the 2 elected officials got us here in Prince William County other than a bad reputation? Hell, we even swept up Manassas City in the process.
Mando, I don’t think it’s possible to tease out which of Stewart’s supporters voted because of the immigration issue and which voted for other reasons. They weren’t asked. We have no data.
I’ve driven past the sign frequently. I use that street because it’s lightly travelled compared to some of the surrounding streets. You’re guaranteed to get through the light. Frankly, I guess I don’t have the type of personality that allows one person’s sign to get my stomach in knots.
Hello, I believe we should have a uniform immigration system in this country. A person should be able to assume the law is the same as he or she travels from county to county, state to state.
“Yes, I am implying all of this was bs and bluster. We have spent money we do not have and have gotten nothing in return. We have gotten nothing that wasn’t handled by the 287g program. ”
I’ll give you that. I’ve always stated and felt that the resolution was nothing more then a paper tiger. The resolution was a result of consituent frustrations with heel dragging and same old same old “it’s a federal problem” passing the buck.
Honest question though, how much exactly has that paper tiger cost? In dollars? Not 287g, but the resolution?
Also, you’ll notice the “sign” specifically mentioned 287g NOT the resolution.
“Frankly, I guess I don’t have the type of personality that allows one person’s sign to get my stomach in knots.”
Well censored, I guess you’re just a better person then the residents around that “sign” that do have a problem with it.
Hi Moon-howler, as far as PWC having a bad reputation… it all depends on who you talk to. Most of my family lives in MD and back when the who bad reputation talk came about I asked them what they thought of PWC. They all said they wish Montgomery County would do the same thing. I asked people at my work (most of which live in DC and MD) and the only thing they really knew about PWC is Potomac Mills mall. Not a single person I’ve spoken to has ever thought negatively about PWC and knew nothing about a “bad reputation”. Like I said, it’s who you talk to.
“Not a single person I’ve spoken to has ever thought negatively about PWC and knew nothing about a “bad reputation”. Like I said, it’s who you talk to.”
It’s pretty much a Northern VA thing that goes back DECADES (50+ years?) and has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. PWC’s population has exploded in the past few years with all the new developements that sprung up overnight so I’d imagine many of those people experienced a “reputation” shock and naturally blamed it on current events.
Manassas and PWC has ALWAYS been “redneck”.
Hello….”please”,
PWC is a republican county still, barely hanging on by a thread, but primarily republican. Censored make a excellent point, there is NO data to support the supposition that John and Corey won on illegal immigration.
“Censored make a excellent point, there is NO data to support the supposition that John and Corey won on illegal immigration.”
Conversly, there’s none that they didn’t.
touché Elena. However, immigration was the base of their campain and they won. While there is no way to tell if immigration is what got them elected one would have to assume people voted for them based on the campain they ran.
Hello and Mando, Stewart ran a campaign based on regulating growth very shortly before his last campaign. Many people who originally voted for him because of that issue voted for him a second time for the same reason.
Mando, you’d have to look at the extra cost to the PD as well as staff time wasted to figure who could be banned from which county service to help determine the cost of pursuing the resolution. Additionally, it has cost the county lost revenues from sales tax, business taxes, possibly real estate taxes because of residents leaving. Although I think most home foreclosures are the result of loose money, some residents left because of the resolution.
How are neighborhoods better because of the resolution? Aren’t most neighborhood improvements the result of Neighborhood Services finally getting on the ball as well as police and zoning enforcement?
How is it that the Gospel Greg’s true believers on this blog have never heard of PWC’s negative reputation, never met anyone who reads newspapers or has internet access, and only talk to people who don’t follow current events?
Either they are twisting their own experience in order to protect their politicians (Stirrup & the GregNCorey Show), or we should just get used to pleading ignorance as the new tactic of our least informed posters.
Mando,
Using that same logic the majority of Americans want some form of legalization because both Presidential candidates espouse that belief.
And you know, with the exception of the Stonewall precinct, Stirrup lost all other Manassas area precincts including: Sinclair, Westgate, Sudley North & Mullen. Not too good for the ‘Help Save Manassas’ candidate. Stirrup did well in the western area precincts(Evergreen, Battlefield, Bull Run, Glenkirk) but these areas are nowhere near the supposed ‘problem’ which leads me to believe that they voted for him not on the illegal immigration issue but mainly because of his party affiliation.
Censored
BINGO!!! THis is what we should have used our local dollars on all along. Beefed up zoning and Neighborhood Services. My local tax dollars are not to be used to fund federal responsibilities….. or state. Besides illegal immigration – well, don’t get me started on PWC paying to build it’s own roads…. We might as well secede at this point.
Hi WHWN, who are you calling “Gospel Greg’s true believers”?
Thankfully this will be the last blog thread dicussing that sign. The bottom line has always been a simple equation: Could enough people in this area be blinded by hate, fear, and anger to the point that they would champion a disastrously bad policy?
Last year the answer was yes. This year the answer is no. The least informed posters here are the ones who still haven’t opened their eyes. Maybe the demolition of that wall will give them that opportunity.
Also WHWN, yes, my family and friends do read the newspaper and follow current events which is why they wish Montgomery County would do something like PWC about their illegal immigration problems.
“Hi WHWN, who are you calling “Gospel Greg’s true believers”?”
That’s just his/her generic robo response. I don’t think he/she even reads the comments.
How sad for me that the wall came down. I was hoping to avoid applying for a variance to put a roof over my deck by covering the new walls in hate speech. Now I’ll have to follow the regs like everyone else.
Darn.
Area newspapers have commented endlessly on PWC’s Immigration Resolution. PWC has made national news several times. I have had friends and family on the west coast call me up and snicker about us making the news. The only thing you can do is laugh it off.
Yes, Mando, Manassas has always had that reputation. It existed before I moved here and probably will long after I am gone. On the other hand, I thought it was cleaning up a bit when we got noticed for being one of the top 10 wealthiest counties (can’t remember in terms of what). It really did seem like we were chugging along.
I am not sure we can ever seperate the cost of the Immigration Resolution from other economic indicators of things gone amiss. A perfect storm was brewing. I just think we have made things worse and I believe that politicians used immigration and people’s frustration over neighborhood condition to get re-elected.
Anyone who wishes to distance them self from Gospel Greg is more than welcome to. In fact I suggest as much if you are going to repeat things he says as if they are your own thoughts.
But I really don’t keep track of “who” because there IS no “who” for most of the people posting here including me. But I have noticed a pattern among those who, incredibly, still defend the 1O months of political posturing, bad headlines, hateful and racist bickering, blatant lies by our Chairman, and two months of a supremely ill-advised law enforcement policy that befell this county, costing us millions and gaining us nothing but a deeper economic hole to dig out of than any other county in this region.
Anti-Immigrant Lobby apologists (perhaps you prefer this term) have no objective basis for truth or fiction. Your only litmus test for new information is whether or not it supports your immutable, prefabricated county view (your perspective is too narrow to call it a world view).
I don’t know where you learned this, but I choose to blame Gospel Greg. Because no where else but his blog and no where but his Help Save cult meetings have I seen so many people so happily deceived and so expertly trained to memorize and regurgitate untruths.
It’s so funny to read your conviction that everyone has been brainwashed by Greg and company. I was barely aware of HSM and BVBL until I saw the article in the paper when this anti blog was launched. I would have to say my opinions were MORE solidifed after reading some of the zany rantings and extreme opinions HERE.
As a matter of fact, I would name you, WHWN, among a handful of anti elite as contributing to the many reasons I joined HSM recently. I’m sure if Greg posted here he would thank you for your recruitment efforts.
It goes beyond getting themselves reelected, M-H. The fact that it was John Stirrup’s big ole pie hole screaming maniacally at the GOP convention brings our county’s shameful ordeal full circle. Much more so than the GregNCorey Show, Stirrup was always upfront about using the immigration issue as a way for Republicans to hold on to power in Washington. He has privately referred to PWC as a dress rehearsal for 2008 and publicly stated he hoped the issue would dominate this year’s Presidential election.
That was before the Straight Talk Express rolled over John Stirrup’s little Anti-Immigrant Lobby lego set.
The fact that he cheers him anyway tells me what last year was all about for him.
Wow WHWN, I totally understand your strategy now. If someone differs from your opinion they obviously got it from “Gospel Greg”, nice. Oh, I almost forgot, they also don’t have the worldly views you do your Majesty. Us commoners aren’t good enough for you so I just won’t direct any questions your way because you already know everything about me and who brain washed me. What a joke…
WHWN’s world view: Different opinion=brainwashed drone whose vote doesn’t really count, even if his/her candidate wins.
Emma,
Your entrance into this blog was accompanied by your horrible cruel comments to TWINAD. Hardly the unbiased and open approach you pretend to espouse.
Not saying you ARE what you sound like. But I have to point out what you sound like. Relax. It could be just a coincidence. You sound like Gospel Greg because you think like him. I grant you that.
Anyway, I am heartened to see that all have come to realize the negative impact Greg and the Anti-Immigrant lobbying firm he recruited has had on our county.
“Horrible cruel.” Hardly. Go back and look. You all are so bloody sensitive that you gang up on ANYONE who calls you on your bs. I think some of the crap many of the antis have spewn here is a hell of a lot more hateful.
And Twinad’s hubbie is a lawbreaker. Sorry if the truth hurts.
Funny how even after I made a sincere apology to Twinad, you keep throwing it back in my face, Elena. I guess forgiveness is not in your vocabulary, or you are simply too consumed with hatred.
Where’s the pit bull? He/she should be out any minute now.
Emma, as we have discussed, you did come on here guns ablazing. I also do not think that this blog made it to the papers when it was ‘born.’ You must have us confused with someone else. Word just traveled.
As for blaming whwn for your joining hsm, I expect that was already what you had in mind. In fact, weren’t you a member, when you first arrived? And we really aren’t upset if people join HSM. It isn’t particularly selective, they don’t charge dues, so what does it matter?
I am also a lawbreaker. I was speeding today. I also inadvertently brought a bic pen home from work today. Left that bad boy right in my pocket and didnt realize it until I got home. Isn’t that stealing government property?
I know Twinad’s husband. He is a very nice, hard-working man, married to an American lady and is the father of a really cute American kid who is a good student. You prefer to think of him as a criminal? I really find that offensive. Do you think he would not like to have his status changed? How long must he wait after he has applied? I believe Twinad said they applied for an adjustment in status 8 years ago? I believe the goverment agency charged with handling his case is the criminal, not him.
I happen to have some respect for men to stick around and who support and nurture their families.
I agree with Emma, I’ve tried to remain extremely tolerant of others emotional tyrades, and what I get back for simply debating things as truthfully as I can, and as wisely as possible considering the “entire” picture, is a range of responses.
1. I’m ignored
2. I’m personally insulted
3. My values are discredited
4. My character is asassinated
5. My comments are manipulated and twisted
6. I’m being associated with racists like John Tanton, when I have said NOTHING like John Tanton.
7. I’m told that “individual” rights mean nothing and only politcal hate groups aligned in each party along racial, gender, ethnic and religious group lines of political power matters.
8. I’m called a liar
9. I’m associated with HSM and “Gospel” Greg when I know neither and belong to neither.
10. I’m told I provide “pretzel logic” when my education and career as a military pilot, skilled computer engineer, and student of history uses real world evidence and concepts that even Teddy Kennedy conveys to people at the DNC.
11. I’m told that lawfullness does not matter, and lawless people should be supported for breaking the law.
12.I’ve been accused of plagerism, when I’ve only cut and pasted words from wikipedia whaich has a open source GNU license.
12. I’m answered with disrespect, when I convey only a tone of respect, desire honest debate and matter of fact honesty, because people disagree with my comments and opinions.
Is this what it means to be a liberal radical?
Is this the “ethics” of this blog?
Show me any disrespectful things I have said to others, that in ANY WAY equals or exceeds the disrespect and malice with which I have been treated on this blog.
I even apologize when I make a mistake, but not when I state truth that people simply don’t like to hear.
I have had only two very consistant issues.
1. I’m am against illegal immigration and for legal immigration, because “illegal” immigration breaks laws, undermines our democracy, causes poverty, and decline in our community and does not in any way have ANY positive benefit on the majority in our nation. It ONLY helps the “illegals”.
2. I am very much against racism, and see the problems of the racial prejudices of the 1950s returning, but now the primary racists and facists are the political groups aligning along racial, gender, ethnic and religious hates groups using the Democratic Party (in the case of religios groups the Republican party) to politically advocate for and press for factionalized legislation and law that will only benefit themselves, while hurting everyone else in the Democratic concept of “majority” law and majority “welfare”. Such political factions are extremely destructive of Democracy, and create anarchy, lawlessness, facists, socialists and autocracy of the type seen in every other country in the world engaged in ethnic and religious wars.
I am attacked because my free speech views as a loyal and concerned citizen who once put my life on the line for this country, I feel I need to speak out about the problems above and put a stop to it.
I supported Corey in elections (a Republican) and anyone else who will put a stop to the above two problems, including Obama (a Democrat), if I read his dialog and statement correctly. I know what criminal corruption of the political infrastructure really means and I intend to put a stop to it by voting for anyone who will stop the above two national problems.
I am who called you a liar, Michael, because you said I said something I didn’t say. I believe we got that straight on another thread.
I don’t think people here have been ruder than they have been on other blogs. Perhaps it depends on whose ox is being gored though.
let’s look at this another way, you are aware that many of the regulars here are here because they were banished on the black screen and were not even told they were being banished? That has not been done to you here. Not saying it was done to you there, but it might have been and you didn’t know it. Also, people haven’t used one line sound bites on you like ‘illegal is illegal.’ We wouldn’t insult your intelligence that way.
Michael, one more thing, I don’t believe you have been attacked because of your free speech views. People disagree. Life goes on.
Moon-howler, I know where Michael is coming from. I’ve also been called a racist and liar (among other things) for no good reason. I’ve never once said anything about race but if your anti-illegal immigration it seems you get stamped with the racist sticker. If you provide a real life example of something that happened to you your a liar. I’ve even had people question if my wife was really a minority or not (she is Korean). Why would I lie about that?
NotGregLetiecq, 5. September 2008, 9:28
It was the Mexican Americans’ voice that caught the attention of the nation in the first place. Taking to the streets and making demands is a sure way to draw attention. Especially if you’re in the country illegally! I’m glad it happened, because it brought the facts of what was occurring out in the open before it was too late for the American citizen to demand action.
MH, people can disagree with respect. That is the only thing that will make any blog worth the time and effort. None of what I have described above was necessary, including your use of the word “liar”. All you simply have to say and what I say to all of you is “I disagree and here’s why”. Do you routinely call people a “liar” in public places, simply because they say to you “here’s what I hear you are saying and I disagree”.
Use of the word liar is a highly disrespectful term, that is not respectful in any way, it is worse than being rude in tone and mannerism.
You can not simply justify such arrogant and disrespectful comments in the form of all the above things I have experienced simple “whiff, sniff, we are only disagreeing so accept the malice and rudeness”. I only shows futher disregard for any compassion and respect for others.
Rudeness. arrogance and malice is rampant on this blog of a degree or greater than it is on any I have ever been on.
Behavior of this type is inexcusable unless people on this blog believe all people should be treated this way. Elena extols the virtues of the golden rule, yet so many on this blog fail in execution of it, especially if anyone disagrees with them in political concept.
I call that malicious and vicious and completly beneath any person of good character and morals.
Yeah its not a free speech issue Michael. You have a right to post 50,000 word diatribes on an hourly basis and we have a right to scroll through them.
The only people who ever gave me THAT much mandatory reading were grading me at the end of the semester.
NGL, no one is making you read anything. But that does not give you license to make negative and disparaging remarks about it. That is insensitve, disrespectful and un-necessay language that in no way creates positive and respectful dialog. You also do not apply an equivalent “disparaging” remark standard when your political associates write long diatribes. If length was a problem, we would never have a Constitution or a Bill of Rights written, if the only good writing was short writing by your “50,000 word diatribe pain threshold. My comments have been limited only to the length necessary (no-where near 50,000 words) to fully explain the concepts so people do not misunderstand what I am saying and twist my words.
Your intolerance of long verse is really a facade hiding your intolerance of opposing viewpoints and masking your contempt.
I don’t believe your only issue is simply long posts, I think there is more to it, by the tone of voice you use and the way you say it.
Hey, Emma,
Can you repost (or cut and paste) the sincere apology you made to me? I definitely never saw it and back when that happened I was a regular poster. Don’t know how I missed it.
I apololgist in advance for taking up so much space. However…some things need to be spelled out.
Michael, You attributed thoughts and words to me that were not mine. I allowed for
error when I said
Here is what you said I said on another thread. (John Taunton)
and
1.
Yes, I do call people liars if they say I said something I did not say as illustrated above. I was willing to chalk it off to a misunderstanding.
There are plenty of words a lot worse than ‘liar.’ Frankly, I am tired of all the complaining about how people are treated here. It is just an attempt to distract.
This is a general announcement to all who feel they are mistreated here: Take it up with the person who mistreated you. Blogs are not for the feint of heart. Mrs. Cheney runs a very well-behaved blog. Perhaps those who are complaining about this blog should just go to her blog. Warning: Be prepared to go by her rules. Michael, you won’t be able to call people stupid, even generally. Emma, you won’t be able to say some of thing things that you have said to people here. Emma, in most cases, you have dished it out first.
Emma,
I am merely suggesting that if you had an inital negative reaction from people, it was your own doing. Please, personal responsibility would be appropriate for you in this instance.
Michael,
I am going to be very frank with you, maybe you are unaware of how you come across. You can have your opinion, it just simply to long winded for most to read. On some level, actually, I think you write incredibly long posts because you want us to stay attentive to you and only you. You continually write the same philosophy about the abuse of group rights and yet you contradict yourself on a regular basis. On one hand it was O.K. for women to form a coalition to fight for the right to vote, but now, that things are equal(?), women are suppose to forget their gender and become asexual? I would argue that true blind equality does not exist. Furthermore, when are unable to “force” people to agree with you, ie. your incredibly long posts, you resort to threats of legal action. Michael, this is a cyberworld, where people can make up an identity they like, it isn’t the best form of communication, just that simple.
Twinad, here it is:
Michael, I’ll admit I skim over many of your posts, but I do try to catch the basic meaning. I had forgotten you were the one who threatened legal action. Nothing you say makes any sense. Plus it’s long-winded. So, we skim over your posts. That’s the American way in a free competition of ideas.
If you don’t like the feeling, try writing your posts on a different program like Word, and then read them over (before posting) to decide what is:
A) truly essential
B) not essential, but fleshes things out a bit
C) completely contradicts and undercuts your argument.
D) has nothing to do with the subject and makes you look foolish
Next, cut everything that falls into the latter three categories, and throw the rest of it into the comment window. This would gain you some of the respect you seem so distraught over lacking.
Funny you should say that, Elena, because initially you reacted very positively to me, and when I got discouraged and said I wouldn’t post here anymore after awhile, you expressed hope that I would return. Go back and look. Unlike Michael, though, I don’t need for you to like me–I just enjoy the debate.
You have a long memory for the faults of people who disagree with you, Elena, but a very short memory as to the positive things they may contribute to the debate, or to the outright nastiness and bullying tactics of some of the regular posters here. You stand by while others harass and name call and then tell their target that they shouldn’t take it so seriously. I understand that sometimes people exaggerate just to make a point. I know I do it myself, but of course what I say gets interpreted to the extreme, and I’m not allowed to back off from it.
Your responses to me have been pretty hostile of late, which is unfortunate given that you are quite articulate and clearly well-informed, which often makes for a great discussion. But, hey, it’s your (and Alanna’s) party here, isn’t it?
Emma,
What is it that you really want here? Judging from your behavior and tone, I always assumed, from the instant you arrived on this blog, that you wanted to scrap. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Each and every time you blog here, it seems like the focus is everyone’s manners. How about some issues? If I may be honest, I feel like you are the poster child for the expression, ‘if you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.’ Do you understand why I say this?
You make some good points, excellent points even. But you take a barb here, a barb there, and then get all pissed off and aggressive when someone snaps and snarls at you.
Just some benign observations here.
Emma,
I do remember your apology, but, if memory serves me correctly, it was short lived, and you returned to your old habits. I believe it was your comment about breeding that finally turned me off Emma. I honestly don’t want to “hurt” peoples feelings or make them feel like they have nothing to contribute to this blog. Without differing opinions how could we debate.
I have met TWINAD and her husband, both are genuinely kind, good, and hardworking people. I find real life experiences a blessing to this blog, it reminds us that we are all not so very different in our hopes and dreams for ourselves and for our children(if we have them). I recognize that there are issues with undocumented immigrants, but I just won’t go to a place that demoralizes or dehumanizes people. I wonder, on a regular basis, when I look at the world around me, see the suffering, how is it, that I was so lucky to be born here, in the best country in the world.
Emma, this environment is simply not condusive to playing conflict mediator on a regular basis, nor, to be perfectly honest, do I want to. Conflict mediation is impossible in the cyber world, I do the best I can to remind people to remember that we should imagine that we are face to face, and try to behave accordingly.
As much as am for pro-immg posts, what I never thought was a good thing was that sign. Maybe the first message I got, the third message made me bitter. I remember when 9500 Liberty St.(the house) was a slum lord paradise. I remember driving by daily and seeing elec. cords strung from the top windows into the windows below. I distinctly remember thinking “There’s a fire hazard.” Imagine that..house burned due to an elec fire. Then came the signs. My thought…You are a slum lord, your house burned b/c of elec problems. Then when you cannont get a rezone for your property to commercial…voila! There is a sign.
Michael,
Someone had a really good idea off line, maybe you should come to the next economic party. It may help to meet face to face. I don’t think you are mean at heart or unfeeling, but I do believe that you lack a certain sense of empathy. Empathy and the law can go hand in hand. You referenced a scienc fair that you believe you were mistreated because of your gender, you seem to carry that anger with you still. Michael, if I carried all the anger with me, from all past wrongs in my life, and there are some pretty serious wrongs, I would be such an unhappy person, full of anger at the world and all those who let me down. But in the end, we must make a decision on how we will incorporate these experiences, bad and good, into making ourselves better human beings. Ultimately, we must decide to be at peace with how these experiences shaped our integrity, our character, our inner strength.
DB,
I believe you reflect how many people felt regarding the messaging of the sign, including myself. I am glad the sign is down.
WHWN, since you are such a huge fan of McCain but a detractor of Palin, why is it that you use Palin’s tactic of snide remarks and sarcastic ridicule? Wouldn’t the divide bridger McCain reach out to someone like Michael instead of poking fun at his stream of consciousness writing style?
DB certainly sums up my feelings about the sign. It was just time for it to go. It was propped up on the side of a building, violating zoning laws, and finally, it insulted people. The point, was made. Again, and again, and again, and again.
The lead editorial in this morning’s MJM is on target. The sign was “showboating”,
“over-the- top”, “counterproductive” and “an ostentatious eyesore”. Amen.
“I remember when 9500 Liberty St.(the house) was a slum lord paradise. I remember driving by daily and seeing elec. cords strung from the top windows into the windows below. I distinctly remember thinking “There’s a fire hazard.” Imagine that..house burned due to an elec fire. Then came the signs. My thought…You are a slum lord, your house burned b/c of elec problems.”
One culture’s slum lord is another’s hero. Sad and politically incorrect to reflect on but true.
I wish the opinion piece in MJM had been better written. It was hard to follow and has several sentence fragments. Perhaps the print copy was proof-read better.
I think their strongest point was the wall alienated people who might not have negative feelings had they not had to look at that ugly sign for a year.
Any good feelings I had about unempowered people fighting back were diminished by the time I saw the third version of the sign. I don’t like racism coming from anyone and that third sign was racist. I don’t use that term often. For the third sign, I make an exception.
Actually, at first read I don’t find anything disagreeable in the opinion piece.
And to whoever asked if I thought ‘illegals’ should be included in the process, no. How about attempting to include the legal immigrants? What we have witnessed is a process that has not been inclusive of minorities in the community.
Actually, Moon-howler, I make a LOT of good points, and you and I have had some enjoyable exchanges. I understand how easy is for you to forget that when the gang mentality sets in here. But, honestly, if I dish out “a barb here and a barb there,” there are plenty HERE who get “all pissed off and aggressive.” It worlks both ways, doesn’t it? That’s my whole point, just the hypocrisy of singling out someone who doesn’t happen to agree with the majority voice here and deciding to be offended by what that person says, whle that person is told they should have a thicker skin. That’s blogging. Sometimes you have to push the envelope a little to make a point.
But I also understand how impossible it is for some of you to see “the human side” of HSM. You’ve got us all lumped in as brainwashed clones. It would be awful if I were to turn that logic around and generalize about illegal immigrants now, wouldn’t it?
Elena, if you don’t like the challenge, then maybe you should think about censoring. This could get really complicated, because then there would have to be an anti-anti blog.
Emma, can’t you just take a compliment? I complimented you and it wasn’t good enough. You had to go get all argumentative and say you make a LOT of good points. I just don’t think that saying that was in the interest of everyone getting along. How much is ALOT and how does that amount vary from SOME?
I don’t know we are even having this discussion. You seem to thrive on controversy. I believe what singles you, and a few other regulars out here, is who the barbs are usually directed at. It is one thing to go after the public policies of an elected, or even appointed official. It is another thing to attack individual bloggers who are just expressing their own opinion.
Let’s clear something else up. Everyone on this blog is not in total agreement. Not by any stretch. As for lumping all of hsm as brainwashed clones, I don’t know why you would imply I think that. I think too many of you all listen to your master’s voice and lack the personal integrity to stand up to your leader publically when he lies and attempts to vilify and ruin people’s careers and personal life. I speak for myself here and do not reflect the opinion of this blog or its contributors.
When I see members of HSM coming out against their leader when he is obviously handing out bullshit and lies and manipulating data to advance his own cause, then those individuals will have my respect.
Rick Bently would be a person who I often do not agree with but who has spoken out when he feels HSM leadership is wrong. Rick isn’t a brainless clone.
Finally, Emma, yes it works both ways, which is why you need to stop complaining about it. it is beginning to sound like whining because you know if you come here on the attack, you are going to get it right back.
Emma, without going back to research what “good points” you’ve made, I’ll assume there have been a fair number and address what’s really getting to you. You seen to strongly identify with a perspective that also attracts many racists. This opens you up to guilt by association and you seem desperate to prove that you are nothing like those who founded, funded, organized, and led the group you belong to, and it’s various other front groups leading back to F.A.I.R.
If we all agree (and I certainly do) that not everyone in Help Save Manassas and not everyone in F.A.I.R. is a racist, can we just drop it?
FortKnocks, there are McCain Republicans and there are, sadly, Palin Republicans. Sometimes the McCain Republicans have to lower themselves to speaking the language of the Palin Republicans. It’s the only way to get through to them, as the Convention recently proved.
I think everyone here has at one time or another made a good point. Acknowledging that is only fair. This is the core of the issue in Washington. If we can’t form a consensus and without ego playing the major role, how on earth do we expect our elected officials to do so.
C’mon, stop expecting things from others when you don’t expect them from yourself. Respect, Integrity, Teamwork, Outcome……
It is disengeneous for individuals to lambast the PWC/Manassas area with
every means possible from net posting and blogs to clearly propaganda films
to letters-to-the editor to ugly billboards –and then ask us to listen to them
and reform our ways — because of our “poor image” — one that they have labored
so hard to help create.
Moon howler, distinguishing between “alot” and “some” is a little too Clintonesque for me to even attempt
Actually, I don’t see how my last post was “whining” or even “complaining”–just acknowledging the give-and-take and that EVERYONE needs to have a thick skin with blogging. You’re smart folks–otherwise why would I bother here?
Enough for now–need to go back to my Master now for further instructions
OH BROTHER.
“When I see members of HSM coming out against their leader when he is obviously handing out bullshit and lies and manipulating data”
I think Greg’s blog, which is not HSM, and HSM get confused in people’s minds. I don’t agree with everything he posts in his blog, but I think HSM’s positions and efforts are reasoned, moderate, constructive, and positive.
What Poor Richard? We created the bad image? No, WE RESPONDED to the craziness that Greg promoted!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Dw1ioGPGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAWEMOgAJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBbjrk0QWqw
These ARE the facts Poor Richard. Don’t you dare blame me for speaking out against the hate that was clearing building like a tidal wave, daring to drown us all in its aftermath.
Eleana,
I’m not a supporter of Greg or any other extremist on this issue,
right or left. My point is that needless turmoil stirred up
by both sides has damaged the entire community with
what often seems more like a nasty grudge match than a
reasoned discussion.
If PWC has such a horribly racist reputation, and if some of you believe you are living in what is rapidly becoming a “police state,” why do you continue to live there and keep your families at risk? Please don’t give me the baloney about how you wouldn’t be able to sell your house, etc. If it is so morally repugnant and scary, then take a stand and move away from this den of iniquity. You would live in fear and oppression just because your house and neighborhood are too comfy to leave? Or do you remain because you know the whole “bad reputation” thing is bull.
Emma, the county is not “morally repugnant and scary;” you are. But you do not represent this county. And you sure as hell aren’t going to chase any 40 years residents out of the county just because you can’t take any criticism and can’t process complex ideas or issues. Why are you imploding over the fact that you can’t convince people who are obviously your intellectual superiors? Go over to the other blog and try to convince people in your own league.
Poor Argument,
There are millions of viewers on local TV and cable TV. The GregNCorey show have disgraced themselves and disgraced this county on mainstream media outlets again and again and again. You can’t blame ordinary citizens for commenting on this behavior using new technology that has a great deal less firepower than Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Riley. You certainly can’t blame long time residents for a reputation that recent arrivals like Greg Letiecq, Corey Stewart, and John Stirrup have earned for us.
Your logic is below average for high school debate teams, and not sufficient to deceive anyone who is not already a Gospel Greg clone. The self-hypnosis that grips you and your fellow clones exists only in Gospel Greg’s virtual echo chamber, and in the meetings he runs every month or so just prove that the same propaganda can be spoken with a straight face as long as there is no one there to challenge you.
On the street, around the region, and to some degree around the nation, it is well known that Help Save Manassas, Greg Leteicq, and Corey Stewart are to blame for our damaged reputation, compromised public safety, and sinking economy.
But, again, I’m heartened to see that at least we are arguing on a plane of reality in which the bad reputation is real (even though some of us don’t have any friends who read the newspaper).
Ssshhh, calm down, WHWN. You are quite the caricature. The bogeymen won’t get you, I promise.
Emma, I’m quite calm. As I said, I’m heartened to find that you and others who have consistently displayed a head in the sand, are now peaking out enough to come to terms with the basic facts:
Whether you want more immigration to meet the needs of our local and national economy, or you want less immigration to preserve the white majority, THERE SIMPLY IS NO ARGUMENT that as the Lab Rats of The Federation for American Immigration Reform, Prince William County has gotten the short end of the stick.
You can blame the news. You can blame the newspapers. You can blame the You Tube filmmakers. Or you can blame this blog. But the bottom line is we are the last place new investment and new home owners want to come right now. We have the worst reputation of any county in America (except for the KKK Sheriff’s county in Arizona). And even Gospel Greg had only one argument for the disastrous Immigration Resolution: less brown faces at the bus stop.
Was it worth it to you? Be honest.
Where are your supporting data? And please don’t say SPLC. I would like to see some objective FACTS from relatively objective SOURCES, because all indications are that things are improving in PWH and throughout a country that is still digging itself out from under a mortgage crisis.
Just because your intellectually superior self says it is true does not make it true.
Incidentally, I ate dinner with my family at the Bulll Run Tony’s a little while ago. There were a couple of county cops there enjoying a meal. Can you believe that there were two Hispanic famlies there as well, laughing and enjoying their pizza RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE COPS? Someone needs to tell those fools that they are playing with fire.
Emma, if you really have an open mind to understanding what’s going on, the Center for Regional Analysis puts out a couple of reports a month:
http://www.cra-gmu.org/
This will get you started. Thanks for asking.
I’m sorry if I sound cross with you. As I’ve said many times I’d say it nicer if we were talking face to face. When it’s just a fake name I really do get frustrated with the inanity of blaming a negative economic downturn on immigrants in order to pass a law, and then citing the same statistics (only worse) to claim there IS no economic downturn now that the law has taken its toll on the county.
On this very thread, I’ve seen people go from blaming the negative reputation of Prince William County on Elena, Alanna, and a You Tube vidoes, and then turn around and say there is no such thing as a negative reputation for PWC.
I don’t mind if there are self-deceived people in the county, but they are making matters worse for all of us by perpetuating that self-deception, especially now that there is nothing for them to gain by it.
Poor Richard,
I, along with a multitude of other people, who have been out front and behind the scenes, are simply NOT responsible for the mess we are in right now. I really am suprised by your comment. We simply reacted to the mess that Greg, FAIR, Corey, and Greg imposed upon all of PWC. I WISH, I can’t tell you, how I wish NONE of this had ever happened. Maybe you can turn a blind eye to what was happening in this county, but not me, and not alot of other people too. We worked hard to get the resolution amended to what it is now, it may not be perfect, but a blow was struck to Corey et al, and that matterd Poor Richard, it mattered alot.
Emma,
I love this county, I love this state, and I love this country. I will not abondon my county to the likes of Greg or Robert Duecaster. That simply is not my nature. As the republicans love to say “I don’t cut and run”
Too bad some Republicans in PWC wouldn’t “cut and run”. Of course, that includes the wannabe politician type Rupublicans too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwhTBTaD6D8
WhyHereWhyNow, 6. September 2008, 11:07 wrote:
WHWN,
I think I get the difference between a “McCain Republican” and a “Palin Republican” in your mind. McCain Republicans are respectful grand dad types and Palin Republicans are mean snide remark haters. Right?
You know, I think the accusation you wanted to say above was hypocrisy. I agree that’s annoying, but if hypocrisy annoys you so much, why aren’t you annoyed that the same people who said Governor Kaine was unqualified to be Obama’s VP now say that Sarah Palin is ripped, ready and roaring to be a heartbeat from Commander in Chief?
For X’s sake! Listen to Karl Rove flip-flop on whether experience is an important qualification for VP. It’s classic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOxs6_3TfPE
The entire party is singing the same tune. Even Mr. Straight Talk McCain is feeding us the same b.s. about Palin being qualified to be President due to her months in the Alaska governors mansion.
So aren’t “McCain Republicans” and “Palin Republicans” fused into one big hypocritical con job right about now?
Great point FortKnocks!
Thanks WHWN, I will review that link tomorrow when my brain is fresh, although if it is authored by Dr. Stephen Fuller, I will find it suspect, sorry. I don’t for a minute believe that legal immigrants had anything to do with the economic downturn. The downturn was a nationwide crisis in part due to greedy lenders and oil speculators, among a few villains, but no reasonable person believes that the economy tanked just because of immigration.
And really, the “bad” reputation goes back to John Wayne Bobbitt, and continued with a string of stupidity that kept putting the Manassas area in a negative public light. And our own Washington Post, read by millions all over the world, is only too happy to gleefully perpetuate this image.
Whatever is said about the “reputation” of this area, this region has jobs, and the area roads are clogged every day with people trying to get to those jobs. We’re not that bad off.
“And really, the “bad” reputation goes back to John Wayne Bobbitt, and continued with a string of stupidity that kept putting the Manassas area in a negative public light.”
NOPE, WAY before Bobbit! Now, that was funny, in a circus way. I would say as bad as it was, he didn’t suffer any short Cummings from it. He EXPLOITED HIMSELF!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uunSnYz3t4
RD
Where is Bobbitt now? First he was a porn star, then a minister or something–or was it the other way around?
Emma,
Who knows
He probably disappeared like a dead fish rolled up in yesterdays newspaper.
That is how significant THAT story was when it broke HEADLINE news
I do admit, I watched the video out of curiosity -hometown-historical-news making shit-yeah right, lol!!!!!!
I do hope not TOO many people watched the Bobbit video but did not watch my video about the Presidential election. Here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOxs6_3TfPE
Coming to this thread extremely late, but are there really people who would refer to Eric Byler as a wannabe filmmaker?
It isn’t exactly difficult to find his three feature film credits. If you check out his 2002 feature, you will find reviews from Roger Ebert, the New York Times, Variety, SF Chronicle, etc. linked to that feature on the IMDB. Do you suppose they reviewed a non-existent film? Do you suppose the festivals that screened his work screened non-existent films? Why make yourselves seem so utterly foolish by implying he isn’t *already* an experienced filmmaker?
Leila,
I’m guessing that the people who say stuff like that are not film buffs or indie fans. If someone isn’t Steven Spielberg with blockbuster popcorn movies hitting the local multiplex, than they may not consider him or her a real filmmaker. It’s kind of like saying, “Well I’ve never heard of you before, so you must be insignificant.”
To me, those comments are just little jabs they are hoping will hurt someone’s feelings. I’m sure that Eric and Annabel are in NO WAY bothered it. They probably just consider the source.
Being a film fan myself, I hope that those people do start taking a look at smaller, independent and arthouse films. Mainstream movies are great, but if that is all you are seeing (or maybe even all you’re aware of), you are REALLY missing out!
Often obscure filmmakers get attention from national reviewers. But they’re still obscure.
And, I’m sorry, when your message becomes purely political, you’re going to turn off a segment of the population, no matter how much they might enjoy indie films.
Emma, It wasn’t a question of “obscure” or non-obscure. It was a question of the use of the word “WANNABE” by someone above, plus Rick appearing to suggest that the information in the Wikipedia entry was made up.
The word “wannabe” implies someone isn’t yet what they desire to be. Eric Byler is a filmmaker with several features completed. Under no possible meaning is he wannabe. Plus frankly very few independent filmmakers (relatively to their numbers) get any kind of national review attention especially beyond festival coverage from Variety. Vastly fewer Very get nominated for the national and televised awards of the indie sector. But all that is beside the point. The point is while Eric may be a wannabe race car driver, chef, nuclear physicist, whatever, the one thing he is NOT is a wannabe filmmaker.
The people who continue to use that terminology (and it has occurred in other threads repeatedly). Or the people who imply that info on him is made up, are doing so to belittle him and are showing themselves to be willfully ignorant, unwilling to do the smallest amount of fact checking. But that’s nothing new.
Common tactic, don’t like the message, shoot the messenger. The reality is that Eric and Annabel have done a fabulous job documenting the events in PWC.
“Fabulous” because they have documented the events from your point of view. If they were biased against illegal immigrantion, you would be lumping them in with Greg, Corey, FAIR and all of your other bogeymen and doing everything possible to discredit them here.
FortKnocks, your definitions are a bit crude, but I will try to answer your questions.
Palin Republicans (my term) are really Culture War Republicans. I’m referring to E. D. Hirsch’s book “Cultural Literacy,” which was part of a vanguard of books and papers written during the 80’s arguing that multiculturalism was a threat to America, and that Western Culture should extinguish all else before we lose our common language … our “cultural literacy.” Pat Buchanan’s 1992 GOP convention speech, known as the Culture War speech, famously ended with a foaming-at-the mouth scream: “block by block, we must take back our cities, and take back our culture, and take back our country.”
Buchanan’s speech also added, rather listlessly, that as governor of Arkansas, Billl Clinton’s national security credentials were “limited to eating once at International House of Pancakes,” but his real problem was with gay rights, multiculturalism, and equal rights for women, all of which would see advancement if “Clinton & Clinton” reached the White House. The aim of Culture War, or Palin Republicans is to inspire hatred … a them vs. us fanaticism that we saw perfected during Palin’s speech the other day. This worries me because Buchanan’s speech in 1992 was so shrill and hateful that, in my view, he cost George H.W. Bush the election. And, perhaps worse, his insurgent candidacy that year gave birth to a movement that had 8 years to boil into a hateful Culture War fervor. They reached their apex during the 2000 election and the run-up to the Iraq War. Today, the remnants are what I call Palin Republicans.
So what are McCain Republicans?
G. H. W. Bush and Ronald Reagan were McCain Republicans. Both were pragmatists who saw the big picture. Although they were supported by and (in Reagan’s case) beloved by the the Culture Warrior types, they were never slaves to them, and never, EVER let themselves become consumed with the sort of rage and resentment that we see in politics today.
For this, I blame the current President Bush (Bush the 2nd), who internalized this Culture Warrior tactic that was supposed to be limited to election season. He somehow became convinced that, as leader of the party, he was supposed to create hate and division in America 24-7 for every day of his term. Hate and division are useful during a campaign, but once you’re in office, there are more important things to do, some of which are quite hindered by hate and division. Karl Rove and Dick Cheney took advantage of Bush’s inexperience, and abused the power of the Federal government … our spy agencies, our Justice Department, our military, the Office of “Faith Based” Initiatives, and most shamefully: the tragedy of September 11th … to create fear, manipulate the public, and attack the Democratcs.
To cement his power, Karl Rove wanted to turn the whole party into Palin Republicans, and he might have if not for McCain. But what he did accomplish was pushing the base of the party into right wing extremism (including the Anti-Immigrant clones). Moderate Republicans now classify themselves as Democrats or independents. McCain was the only candidate who had a chance of winning them back. That’s why he’s the nominee. The majority of Republicans are McCain Republicans.
With this in mind, yes, I’m annoyed by Palin Republicans, but I don’t want them to stay home from the polls, so I suppose I’m stuck with them. Truthfully, I’m more annoyed at that irascible Karl Rove disciple who now runs McCain’s campaign. Their Palin strategy has manipulated the Culture War Republicans so obviously that I fear many of the moderates who left the party will not come back.
Palin R’s have been behaving like fanatics. They can be made to care about, say, national security, but they can also be made NOT to care, which is what annoys me most. Any intelligent person would have had misgivings about an inexperienced governor as V.P. with a 72-year-old nominee for President. But these fanatics instantly went cuckoo for Palin. Why? Because they were told to. Frankly, it’s scary.
I detest the long term strategy of dumbing down the party into Palin Republicans (in the information age, this is a dead end street), but I can accept reaching out to them as a short term band aid to hold together a coalition that Bush nearly destroyed.
Palin is a true Culture Warrior who thrives on hate and resentment even more than Buchanan did in his day. She was, from a political standpoint, the perfect choice because McCain just has too much class to behave the way Palin does, and he has too much intelligence to believe the things she believes (global warming is a hoax, gays are going to hell, the earth is 6,000 years old, etc). Palin Republicans and McCain Republicans don’t speak the same language … McCain Republicans speak of complex ideas or policy initiatives. Palin Republicans need only to be reminded who to hate. Palin speaks that language. But my problem with her is that she doesn’t speak McCain’s language.
But, this is election season, when all bets are off. So, while I was angered at first by the choice of Palin for VP, I’ve come to terms with the fact that McCain was forced to choose her. He had to reach out to the Palin’s of the party in order to save it.
WHWN, but how does McCain save the party if he attracts Palin Republicans at the expense of moderate Independents and moderate Democrats? I’m an Independent who doesn’t hesitate to vote for a Republican at the local level but I’ve not voted for one at the state or national level in almost twenty years. As time goes on and the Republican party moves farther to the right and closer to the haters, I’m less inclined than ever to vote for a Republican. The only way they would win me back as a voter is to move toward the center. I felt as though John McCain had a chance to make a real difference and then didn’t. Do you think that Republicans think that there are more haters than moderates out there – thus they court that element?
Censored, look at it from my perspective. For 8 years I have been waiting for McCain to clean house, not of the corporate lobbyists which would be impossible, but of the Culture War extremists in the GOP.
At first glance, it seems like inviting Palin on the ticket is a step back. But if McCain lost to an African American candidate with a name like Barack Obama, the extremists and the fanatics would go insane and probably take over the party. McCain would be powerless to stop them. The GOP would become more and more extremist as the nation becomes more and more tolerant and progressive. This is a dead end street for the GOP.
So, I’m trying to think along with McCain. He had little chance of winning without the Culture War fanatics, and he was too classy to go out and get them himself. So, he made a little compromise. He plans on using Palin to get into the White House, at which point he will muzzle her pit bull mouth, lock her in the VP mansion (or better yet send her on a Just Say No tour) and move the party to the center.
Greg’s and Duecaster’s video speak for themselves, literally Emma. Their own words are there for all to see
WHWN, I’m curious about where the Culture War fanatics would have gone had McCain chosen a more moderate running mate. If BVBL is any indication, many appeared to be willing to sit this election cycle out or write-in a candidate (or so they say…haha). McCain may have been able to pick up more moderates though I’m not sure he would get enough to win. Had the CW fanatics chosen to go a third party route, it seems that would have left the moderates in the Republican party a chance to claim to be a party of fiscal and constitutional conservatism. That would be a hard sell given Bush’s spending on the war, the various mortgage bailouts, etc. It probably would result in a loss this year but the party may have been able to offer new ideas after that. How it is, they’ll still be faced with the yoke of right-wing extremists next time around because they (the nutjubs) have gotten what they want – a visible seat at the table and a voice in drafting the platform.
At this point I’m glad I’m not a party animal and don’t have to worry about the gate-crashing.
I usually enjoy your posts, WHWN, but you seem to hate “Palin Republicans” even more than you hate Emma. Aren’t you supposed to be a kinder gentler Republican????? You are so obviously holding your nose for political expedience with Palin on the ticket.
If you are such a national security expert, how can you be willing to see the United States take the risk of having a “fanatical” novice (that you look down your nose at) a heartbeat away from Commander and Chief of our Armed Forces, which are already stretched to the brink by a fanatical novice for eight years?
And if McCain survives his term, Palin is not going to accept being tucked away in the closet. She is going to try to take advantage of McCain just like Cheney took advantage of Bush. If McCain reaches the White House, he will be completely isolated with Palin snapping at his heels. He will either have to embrace Palin and the extremists who don’t believe in books or science, or he’ll have partner with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, and the Democrat controlled Congress. He’s flip-flopped so many times, I don’t know which he’ll do. I can’t imagine how you can pretend to know. And this is all assuming that he means what he says about governing from the middle. I don’t see any evidence of it. He talks the talk but his voting record is war, war, war, bomb, bomb, bomb, drill, drill, drill, and, after a flip-flop, corporate tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans while the rest of us foot the bill.
McCain has wanted to be President for so long and so badly, he seems wiling to say or do anything. And you’ve wanted him to be President so long and so badly you’re willing to convince yourself of anything. I don’t trust McCain and I don’t trust people who apologize for his bad decisions.
I agree with FortKnocks. I think that McCain will be much more a slave to his party than the public likes to think. We have to look at his record. We have to listen to his stance on the issues. We have to pay attention to his not-so-classy temper incidents. I’m not just going to take his word for it that he will change Washington once he is voted into office. We are told over and over again that John McCain is a maverick, but that doesn’t mean he really is one (unless you are defining “maverick” as a hothead).
WHWN, perhaps you are overly committed to the idea that McCain was robbed in 2000 and that it has to be McCain that cleans up after the Bush disaster.
Is not Obama equally qualified to clean up after the Bush disaster? I would argue more qualified, since Obama had the foresight to know that Iraq was a lie and a death trap, the foresight to argue for diplomacy instead of bluster toward nations we don’t agree with (which even President Bush is now trying at the eleventh hour of his tragic presidency). Also, Obama was the first to argue for less troops in Iraq and more in Afghanistan, and Bush/McCain again followed suit after a period of ridiculing Obama for those very ideas.
So, yeah, if foreign policy is your big concern, now there is Palin with no track record or even a public opinion on foreign policy other than she thinks God wanted us to go to war in Iraq!?!?!
Obama can better clean up after the Bush disaster because everyone in the Democratic party WANTS to clean up after the Bush disaster. Only half the Republicans want that. You heard the crickets at the convention when McCain confessed for Bush’s sins.
The bigwigs with the concentrated power in Washington, including the high priced lobbyists who run McCain’s campaign, are not going to go down without a fight. If McCain and Palin are our co-presidents, those high priced lobbyists will be in the White House fighting AGAINST the change that McCain says is “coming.” Palin was a whistle-blower in Alaska, good for her, but the whistle has already been blown in Washington. The question is who really intends to fix it, and who is just saying that to get out from under the dark cloud of the Bush disaster?
Both sides of this issue are wrong, dead wrong. Greg’s side seems to believe that all brown people who try to get a job at the local 7-11 are illegal. There is a lot of hatred and the appearance of racism. On the opposite side, you have a bunch of people whom think that the borders have no meaning and we should just embrace any other country’s poor, sick and criminal citizens just because! You believe that anyone caught committing a crime here illegally should do their time and released back onto our streets. I find myself somewhere in the middle. First of all we can not afford to take on everyone elses poor, sick and criminal citizens. I think that we need to have a better way to have people become citizens in a faster way. We also can not be stopping everyone who has brown skin for spitting on the sidewalk and locking them up. The Federal government has not done its job so PWC has been trying to do something. As a country, we can not afford to sit back and do nothing. As for the sign, the City did everything right. Mr. Fernandez’s problem is he violated the State Building Code and the City’s zoning laws. Had he just kept the sign displayed the way it was and not start rubbing his beliefs in everyones face by having events on the property without a special use permit, the sign would be standing today. As aformer COM employee for many years until recently and after dealing with this man on many occassions I can tell you he is no innocent victim. His whole intent was to have this property rezoned to a commercial use and build some type of a commercial building on the property. I can say this because he told me as much. I for one am glad the sign is gone. I know many people who don’t live in the area but have to see that ugly structure everyday who ride the train. Another thing, I never killed anyone, never had slaves, never hired any hispanic individual to clean my toilets, so I resent the message it portrayed.
Former Com,
I am wondering, what gave you the impression that many people here are so unlike you?
You said:
On the opposite side, you have a bunch of people whom think that the borders have no meaning and we should just embrace any other country’s poor, sick and criminal citizens just because! You believe that anyone caught committing a crime here illegally should do their time and released back onto our streets. I find myself somewhere in the middle. First of all we can not afford to take on everyone elses poor, sick and criminal citizens. I think that we need to have a better way to have people become citizens in a faster way. We also can not be stopping everyone who has brown skin for spitting on the sidewalk and locking them up. The Federal government has not done its job so PWC has been trying to do something. As a country, we can not afford to sit back and do nothing.
First of all, I, like many others, are for a safe border, not allowing people who have committed felony crimes back on our streets, and additionally supporting immigration reform to deal with the obvious need for an immigration system that works. I would also add, that I believe NAFTA may have created an even worse economic consequence to Mexico, in particular, and that we need to deal with that. Having said that, there are many “illegal” immigrants, approximately 30-40 % who are NOT from our South. This is not just a “border” issue, this is a much broader problem and we need to deal with it a socially responble, fiscallly sound, and humane approach.
Former COM employee, Please show any data you have to back up that most people on this blog are for open borders. That’s a smear tactic used by posters from BVBL. As Elena said most of us want immigration reform, a speedier process for citizenship/work visas, secure borders, felons off the street. How do you propose dealing with 12 million people who are here already?
Former COM employee,
I for one am not for open borders and I don’t know anyone here who is or has said they are. Wanting immigration reform does not mean we want to ignore who is in our country and I certainly do not the people of the world to have free access.
I am glad you are here. I had read your contributions on bvbl. But please get to know us and what we are all about rather than believing the lies that have been told about us.
“You believe that anyone caught committing a crime here illegally should do their time and released back onto our streets.”
Anbody know who the ‘you’ is that he is referrring to? I don’t have any problem with shipping the criminals back after they’ve served their time. I do want the borders secured. I have even suggested changing the Constitution to end birth right citizenship should be considered part of an overall comprehensive immigration plan.
Certainly, Former COM has never met someone in favor of open borders or releasing criminals. But it could be that she heard this from Gospel Greg (the classic straw man argument) and for some reason actually believed it. Or, it could be that she is unconsciously self-aggrandizing. “Everyone around me has a really extreme position on one side or the other, but I just find myself the only sane one, me-oh-my.” To give her the benefit of the doubt, this could just be an attempt to sound thoughtful and relevant.
Former COM, not saying we don’t welcome your opinion here. On the contrary, we’re glad you joined. But you have to raise the level of your game on this blog. It’s not BVBL.
NGL and Alanna,
I have read former com (not to be confused with ignorant, arrogant com on bvbl) and former is very informative. I think we have just been mischaracterized by the fearless leader over there.
NGL, FK, Censored, and DGirl,
I never said I was a national security expert. I was just as critical as you about McCain’s choice of Gov. Palin for VP, particularly in a national security context.
Politicians on both sides of the aisle make calculated decisions during campaign season. Obama’s VP choice could also be said to be politically motivated, to balance out the ticket with someone who has national security experience. Obviously, Palin was designed to pander to right wing extremists. I’m the one who spelled that out, remember?
You are free to support Obama. I am holding out hope for McCain. The man gets beaten up on this blog. He gets beaten up on the other blog. Where are the McCain supporters of PWC?
WHWN,
There may be a select few beating McCain up on the other blog, but recent threads show that a seeming majority of posters there are in support of him. Obama represents some horrible antichrist to some of them. Rick Bentley is quite a vocal opponent of McCain’s, and he posts many things on him back to back (which may make it look as though McCain doesn’t have a lot of support over there).
Thanks for the update. I have not read the other blog myself, but only heard complaints from associates.
WHWN, you have ducked most of our questions, but okay….
To all whom it concerns,
I’ve been away for awhile, so simply could care less about answering all the Michael bashing you all love to claim is justified. I see it as pathetic. Simply, most of your personal attacks and personal reasons for saying the things you do are not justifiable bahavior in any way.
I don’t care about sympathy and empathy when it comes to “law” as some of you have displayed incredible naiviety to most lawful people, by creating characters and personalities that believe law is “negotiable” outside of congress.
It is not. Empathy for lawlessness is a path few people who wish to succeed will ever take successfully.
Like I said before, I don’t care what you say or how mean and malicious your behaviors and perspectives are (again I see none of this behavior as justified),
The law is the law, and it needs to be enforced, not begged for empathy and sympathy.
Once you do this you have terribly undermined Democractic and Justice legal concepts.
Law enforcement is never a “threat”. It is simply just moral and immoral, good and bad, harmful and harmless. Even kids are taught to obey rules and laws or they grow up to be criminals, thugs, thieves or pathetic members of good communities.
I only have two issues:
1. Stop “illegal “immigration, llegal breaking of the law, and deport “illegal” people who have broken the law.
2. Stop ethnic hatred, racism, and racist politcal activist groups that harm and damage society by breaking law and hurting “individuals” not like themselves or members of their “group” even if they are a “majority” of the “Democracy”.
I see this blog dedicated to undermining and ignoring both of the above moral concepts.