Seriously, this is our immigration quota system? OY VAY
So, as usual, I am wondering, how inadequate is our immigration system? I find this very interesting summary, it clarifies, fairly succinctly, how incredibly broken our system is in America, especially for unskilled workers. I won’t spoil the ending, but remember this number, 147, it will astound you when you realize what it represents.
But even if Congress were willing to expend the necessary funds to upgrade systems and supply the manpower needed to expedite the millions of applications already in the queue and awaiting processing, the major flaws in immigration policy would still exist.
Flaws codified into law that almost ensure that for the vast majority of would-be immigrants there is simply no legal path to take.
Here is where that number – 147 – comes into play, and why I asked that it be kept in the back of the mind.
I few weeks ago the annual Yearbook of immigration statistics from the Department of Homeland security came out listing every green card, work visa, tourist visa etc. issued for the past year. It’s about as dry and boring a report as one could managed to muddle through …but it supplies invaluable insight into what is really going on with the dysfunctional immigration system.
In 2006 the government issued a little over 1.2 million green cards to new immigrants to live in the US legally. Additionally, 1.7 million more non-immigrant visas were issued to temporary workers and their family members to work in the US (1/2 million more than the number of green cards issued to new permanent residents, a troubling statistic unto itself).
So at face value it appears that there is amble opportunity for those wishing to enter the country permanently to do so legally. But as Mark Twain said there are three kinds of lies “lies, damn lies, and statistics” ..and in this case one must delve into the numbers to see what story they really tell.
Of the 1.2 million green cards issued last year, 581,106 of those went to wives, children and parents of current US citizens. And additional 222,225 went to various other family members of citizens and legal residents, for a total of 2/3 of all green cards going to someone who already had a US citizen or resident relative.
The next largest category of immigrants after the “family based” status were those who entered as “employment based immigrants”. 159,081 immigrants were awarded green cards last year to legally work in the US. ( 12.6% of all immigrants). The vast majority of them being immigrants with high skills, “specialty skills” “extraordinary skills” or “advanced degrees”.
This is codified into the system.
The yearly cap on unskilled workers is placed at a 5000 maximum. This despite the fact that according to the Dept. of Labor, the US economy produces between 400,000 and 500,000 new low-skilled jobs a year and the vast majority of the nearly ½ mil unauthorized workers who enter the country each year find work in these unskilled sectors.
But as unrealistic as the 5000 cap appears, the situation is actually far worse.
Last year the total number of unskilled workers allowed into the US legally was roughly half the official cap: 2513. Out of nearly 3 million people allowed to enter the country either as temporary workers or stay as legal residents, only 2513 were unskilled workers.
But here comes that number I asked you to keep in the back of your mind ….remember it 147?…
Of the 2513 unskilled workers allotted green cards last year, 2366 were already here living and working in the US. They simply “readjusted” their status to permanent residents (most likely from some temporary worker status) …that leaves 147
147 new un-skilled workers without US citizen or legal resident family already here were allowed to enter the US last year legally and receive green cards.
147 out of 1,266,264.
147 …so tell me again how there is a legal path for all who are willing to work and wait patiently.
How long is one expected to wait… because if the ½ a million who enter each year through improper channels were to go home and wait patiently for their turn, it would take over 3000 years before they would get that chance when only 147 are allowed in each a year.
But the rhetoric will most likely continue, despite all factual evidence to the contrary. Lou Dobbs will nightly inform his minion that only the shiftless and slovenly disregard the law. O’Rielly will bluster away how he “respects and supports” those who “do it the right way” and Rush will whine that reform isn’t fair to all those “waiting in line”…But disingenuous blowhards and misleading experts cannot change the truth, or hide the facts. The current immigration laws, and the systems in place to enforce them, are woefully inadequate and all the wall building, workplace raids, deporting and incarcerating will not change that fact…and until they are addressed rationally and reasonably the “immigration crisis” will never end.
Thanks for finding this Elena. I have been making this argument about labor shortages in the U.S. from the beginning. 147 per year is certainly not enough for an economy that we hope to grow in coming years. Will anything cause the anti-immigrant clones to give up on their self-delusion? Perhaps a dose of reality? One can only hope.
I thought this article was spot on. Great find! The rest of the web site looks awesome as well.
All,
Check out this video about the massive mississippi ICE raid. One of the people interviewed claimed that the raid was motivated by the political objective to prevent bonding between african americans and latinos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYQ7f468LME
Apparently there was a lot of tension between African Americans and Latinos in the mississippi plant. When ICE went in, they seperated the whites, then the blacks, so that they could focus exclusively on the latinos.
Apparently when the immigrants were taken into custody, some of the other workers clapped. Very interesting and very cunning on the part of the Bush Administration.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080827/ap_on_re_us/immigration_raid
Of course they clapped, now maybe the pay will be increased to what it should have been before the undercutting labor force arrived.
Segundo Alamo,
Their wages would go up as well if the immigrants were given legal status.
Oh, so being legal would then require higher wages? Why is that? Don’t the illegals pay taxes like the rest of us, so I’ve heard?
One of Duke’s best pieces, Elena,
I hope others thinks so too.
Re: the Mississippi raid.
The way workers are being divided against each other is exactly what elites want. If migrants were given the same rights as U.S. citizens everyone would be able to organize together, side by side.
“Oh, so being legal would then require higher wages? Why is that? Don’t the illegals pay taxes like the rest of us, so I’ve heard?”
Huh?
Non sequitur.
Migrants are not U.S. Citizens and should not be given all of the rights accorded to citizens, that is the difference between being a citizen and not being one. If we give those rights to everyone else in the world, what’s the point of being a U S citizen?
“The way workers are being divided against each other is exactly what elites want.”
Yep. Divide and conquer.
“Migrants are not U.S. Citizens and should not be given all of the rights accorded to citizens”
No but if they work here, they shold be given basic work rights, legal protections, and safety.
Kgotthardt, I agree they should be treated in a humane manner and court decisions have granted them some legal protections (safety, pay etc.). So they are treated as you write.
Elena,
Thanks for the information. I know families who have been here for more than 10 years waiting on their papers to be processed. I just talked with a family who finally got papers after 20 years. Can anyone believe that? We can invest billions in a war but can not invest the money to update our immigration process or hire staff to take care of the backlog of applications.
The raid in Mississippi-I can not even comment on it! I am astounded. Talk about racial profiling. Yep, divide and conquer-the way of the elite.
Well, the number would be much more than 147 if the system were not totally broken and corrupt. Part of fixing the system is providing disincentive for ignoring our rules and laws.
“We can invest billions in a war but can not invest the money to update our immigration process or hire staff to take care of the backlog of applications. ”
Because it’s a political football. Because whores like Obama and McCain spend more time pandering to Hispanic voting blocs than they do honestly addressing the issue.
Wow, Rick. You might actually be more cynical than I am about politicians. But maybe not.
Politicians seem to pander most to banks, big business and large lobbyists. They don’t have time to truly pander to particular ethnic groups to get what they want.
I agree that the banks and big lobbyists’ clients get precedence over ethnic groups. We the People settle for less every time. The real joke is the illusion that we have a choice with these two parties. Again, please reflect on the fact that in 2004 we had a choice between two Yale students one of whom had watched the other one masturbate.
“Their wages would go up as well if the immigrants were given legal status.” No, not at all. All empirical evidence (to include polls of Mexican citizens) indicates that any type of Amnesty will results in an inflow of tens of millions MORE illegal immigrants. resulting in lower wages.
Rick, there is nothing whorish about upholding our nation’s founding principles of equality, justice, and opportunity. Nothing whorish about putting the best interest of the majority of Americans ahead of the bigotry and hysteria of a vocal but ignorant few.
Pander to Hispanic voters?
Why pander to ANY voters when you can pander to Oil Barons and War Profiteers who can in turn BANK ROLL entire Republican party campaigns? The War Industry. Right Wing Ideological Tycoons hope to continue corporate wellfare, War For Profit, and our addiction to oil, if only their campaign contributions can help buy the votes.
McCain is neither decieved nor bigoted when it comes to the immigration issue. How pathetic and desperate, though, to call him a whore for THAT when his campaign is financed by War Profiteers and the Oil Baron Elite, and his top advisors are all slaves to War Profiteers and the Oil Baron Elite?
Why call McCain a whore for not being decieved or bigoted when it comes to immigration when his top economic advisor is a banking industry lobbyist who engineered the home foreclosure crisis by deregulating the industry to maximize corporate profits at the expense of home owners and our national economy (and then calls us “whiners” for not being happy about it)?
Why call McCain a whore for not being decieved or bigoted when it comes to immigration when his top foreign policy advisor is a BOUGHT-AND-PAID-FOR lobbyist working for the embattled nation of Georgia, putting Georgian interists ahead of America’s interests? No we are NOT all Georgians when it comes to America’s national interests.
Why imply John McCain is “selling” policy favors in exchange for ethnic votes? How absurd! The past eight years have shown it’s so much easier to dupe the electorate using a small portion of the billions of dollars syphoned off the American worker and into tax free corporate pig troughs, if and only if the American people are apathetic and ill-informed to allow another four years of it.
“Their wages would go up as well if the immigrants were given legal status.”
Wages would go up if they were allowed to work here through employment agencies which are competitive. Illegal immigrants would have more choices about whom they work for. They aren’t so likely to work for the lowest bidders.
NGL – yes McCain is corrupt in that way as well.
NGL – yes McCain is corrupt in that way as well.
When McCain was one of the “Keating 5″ scrapping to keep his Senate seat after documented corruption, and Obama was a young man doing hard drugs on the streets of NYC, who would have thought our choice in 2008 would be between these 2 clowns …
3 suspects in May shooting are illegal immigrants, feds say
By Freeman Klopott
Examiner Staff Writer 8/19/08
Sebastian Cortes-Hernandez, Santos Ontiveros, and Jose Antonio Ontiveros are being held on an ICE detainer after they allegedly killed a man in Manassas . WASHINGTON – Federal officials have determined the three men accused of shooting and killing a Manassas man in May are illegal immigrants.
One of those three, Sebastian Cortes-Hernandez, 24, also known as “Onion” and “Cebolla,” returned to the United States after being deported to Mexico in 2003.
On May 31, Omar Florencio-Vazquez, 24, was at the Grant Avenue Shopping Center in Manassas with two of his brothers and a cousin when they spotted a group of 12 men they had been in a fight with two weeks earlier, court records show.
Ruben Florencio-Vazquez testified during a preliminary hearing last week that the brothers were leaving to avoid a confrontation, but as they exited, Santos Ontiveros, 24, and Jose Antonio Ontiveros, 27, broke off from the group and attacked Omar. Santos allegedly punched him in the face, and Jose allegedly threatened him with a knife.
Ruben said he used a stick to defend his brother, but that Cortes-Hernandez pulled out a handgun, fired four shots, and hit Omar in the back, chest and thigh. Omar died at the scene.
All three men, Cortes-Hernandez and the two Ontiveroses, have been charged with first-degree murder, and an Immigration and Customs Enforcement detainer has been placed on each.
Following the shooting, the three illegal immigrants disappeared and became the subjects of a national manhunt that led U.S. Marshals to Meriden , Conn. , where they were arrested.
According to the Federation for Immigration Reform, a group that favors tight border control to stop illegal immigration, Meriden and the New Haven , Conn. , area have experienced a population boom fueled by immigrants flooding into the area. Since 2000 the population has climbed by 14,000, even as domestic-born residents have moved out. More than 90 percent of the growth has been fueled by immigrants, census records reviewed by FAIR show.
The charges pending against the three illegals have been sent to a grand jury for review, and an indictment is expected in September, Prince William officials said.
Fry them, use their charred remains to fill potholes, send Mexico the bill for their apprehension and incarceration, and then figure out whether the other 9 involved in the fight are here legally or not. If there is any chance any are here legally but can have their status revoked, revoke it.
Wow Marie,
Race had NOTHING to do with the raid in MS. The sooner that kind of excuse is removed from your vernacular the sooner some will take your comments seriously.
Race has NOTHING to do with ANY ILLEGAL alien issue. I can not understand why the hispanics seem to think they have the market cornered on the ILLEGAL alien issue.
This is must watch – http://www.numbersusa.com/content/resources/video/recommended/immigration-numbers.html
Rick,
We did a whole thread on the Immigration Gumball/Dumb Balls, which can be found here – http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/03/05/immigration-dumballs-for-immigration-gumballs/
one of the bigger problems is their arbitrary start date for the red line in the immigration chart, if they moved it back to the end of WWII then the line would be even more dramatic and people like Anke, my grandparents, Corey’s wife etc… are all in the red portion. Are they the problem too?
Mackie said:
“Apparently when the immigrants were taken into custody, some of the other workers clapped. Very interesting and very cunning on the part of the Bush Administration.”
LOL! They were union employees. The bread and butter of the democrat party.
On the race issue, guess some of you didn’t read the article very well. Not all the illegal aliens were latino.
You guys are priceless.
This artical makes it sound like people wishing to move in the US have a right that we must let them in, We don’t !!!
Dime
From an article:
“Federal officials said a tip from a union member prompted them to start investigating several years ago.”
This is a great irony and presents a quandry for the democrats. Unions vs. “undocumented immigrants”. I guess they could unionize all the illegal aliens and send our economy further into a downward spiral.
Our economy would be better off without either of them.
Instead of importing the labor ship the jobs south. Problem fixed.
Thanks Alanna.
The video gets at the core question, can we realistically do anything about world poverty through immigration? I submit to you that for every illegal alien who has a better life here, it’s at the cost of some American citizen.
It’s one thing to let some people in, and accept them as countrymen. When the numbers are into tens of millions, my charitable impulses are off. Yes, everybody is somebody’s child or parent or future grandparent. That doesn’t mean we can naively make the world better by letting people migrate from continent to continent instead of working to build more progressive societies where they are.
Rick,
I would venture to say more than one US citizens is affected by one ILLEGAL alien. Many are.
Charity has to start at home. Once our house is taken care of, then we can worry about others. Enforce the law, fix the 14th and remove the job incentives.
Dime,
That is the thought process of the ILLEGAL aliens. We made it here, now we DESERVE to be here. It is almost like, we paid our dues (coyote payments, traveling in terrible conditions and starting over), now we deserve to be here. Waving the Mexican flag and talking about taking over the southwest, doesn’t sound like they want to assimilate into their new country. It sounds to me like they want to bring it down to the level they left.
Mando,
I am still trying to figure out how the hispanics think they have the market cornered on the ILLEGAL alien issue. Just as I can not figure out how the blacks think they have the market cornered on racism and discrimination.
Targeting ILLEGAL aliens in raids is not racist, bigoted or any other word of the day. It is law enforcement officials doing a job they have sworn to do which is protect and serve.
Medic -
It’s simply a fact that the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants come from Latin America. If we had a land border with China instead of Mexico I’m certain we’d have +20 million Chinese illegal aliens.
Some people just like to muddy the water to avoid real solutions. It’s an effective tactic.
Alana,
Did the people you mentioned in your post assimilate and become citizens? If so, then no they are not part of the problem. If not, then yes they are. The problem here is the ILLEGAL aliens are not wanting to assimilate, they want to make things as they are in the country from which they came. I have said it before, if the ILLEGAL aliens had just come across the border, assimilated and went on about their business, they probably wouldn’t have been noticed. However, they have brought attention to themselves with the reconquer the southwest mantra. This is the equivalent to kicking a dog lying on the porch. He is now pi$$ed and ready to bite (ICE raids). However, if they had not kicked the dog, he would be no wiser to what they were doing.
I agree Mando, but because those from Europe and the Pacific region have to fly, it makes it harder for them to get here. People can walk or float from Central America or Canada.
Mando,
What did you think about the solution I put forth earlier?
There is still that question about who is going to do the low skilled jobs when the standard for young people is a high school diploma. We have to have a way to legalize those workers who are going to do stoop work and other kinds of jobs Americans do not want to do.
As for the 14th amendment, most amendments have unintended consequences. Look at the 26th amendment, for example. Who would have ever thought that giving 18 year olds the right to vote would have opened up so many cans of worms.
I hope you all realize how difficult it is to ‘tweak’ an amendment. You need to repeal it or pass another amendment. There are only 27 of those bad boys now and we started out with 10, so in over 200 years we have only added 17. Good luck. I am still waiting for the ERA to pass. Glad I am not holding my breath.
In case you missed it:
I have a plan:
1) Close the borders
Develop a tracking program for guest workers that uses a credit card type of swiping mechanism. If they swipe in at work, we know where they are working. If they have overstayed their time, the employer is notified and ICE is called to deal with the worker.
2) Stop all immigration for 10 years (allow those already in the pipeline to continue the process)
3) Give all those here ILLEGALLY 90 days to get their affairs in order and leave voluntarily. (NO AMNESTY IN ANY REGARD) No one is rewarded for jumping the fence or overstaying a visa.
3a) If they do not decide to leave on their own and they are encountered, they are deported immediately with ALL family members. Property seized and auctioned off to help pay for the enforcement of the law.
4) FIX the 14th amendment. It was not designed to give babies born here to ILLEGAL parents automatic citizenship.
5) Fix the immigration laws (this is the reason to put a 10 year hold on immigration)
6) Set a reasonable quota for ALL skill levels of workers
7) Thoroughly test the e-verify system
If this takes less than 10 years, then so be it. This will ensure we get a comprehensive immigration reform solution to the problems the country faces today. We have to make sure that all portions are enforced or this will not work.
@ Medic
I like your proposal, but there’s a much simpler approach. Make it easier for companies that have a demand for cheap unskilled labor to go to the source of the supply. Otherwise, we the average American citizen are subsidizing the inevitable – SUPPLY WILL MEET DEMAND. And vice versa.
There’s a stigma about “shipping jobs overseas” that politicians are cashing in on in spades. It’s a farce. Sure… we can keep those jobs here but we’re going to be importing the labor.
Moon Howler said:
“There is still that question about who is going to do the low skilled jobs when the standard for young people is a high school diploma. We have to have a way to legalize those workers who are going to do stoop work and other kinds of jobs Americans do not want to do.”
The invisible hand of a free market will take care of this without any intervension. When politicians pretend to be economists we all suffer. If we can get their fingers out of the pie then we’ll all be better off.
Medic,
The 14th amendment cannot be fixed. That isn’t how it works. It says what is says. It either needs to be repealed or another amendment needs to be passed if you don’t like the current one. Easier said than done.
Who does the work in the meantime, while we have the 10 year moritorium?
As for credit cards–remember what happened to credit cards issued to some Katrina victims?
What do you feel will be accomplished by giving everyone a 90 day get out of dodge order? I am not sure much of anything will be solved doing it that way.
Move the plants, factories, processing, etc. that require the cheap unskilled labor to Latin America, fix immigration quotas to fill the need of businesses that can’t or won’t relocate, and I think we’ll all be happy… Well most of us… some people you just can’t make happy…
China is CASHING in on their supply of labor and are witnessing a miracle. There’s absolutely no reason Latin America couldn’t do the same.
“and other kinds of jobs Americans do not want to do.””
This is another thing that gets me. It’s not about jobs Americans do not want to do, it’s jobs Americans SHOULDN’T be doing. Not in a elitist sense, but our economy and society has evolved from this. We’re better educated and equiped and are thus fortunate enough to fill the needs of more demanding enterprise.
The factory lines and button pushing of yesteryear are a dying breed in the US and can be gobbled up by countries that REQUIRE that kind of business to fill the needs of it’s labor supply and thus get a toe-hold in the global economy.
“Move the plants, factories, processing, etc. that require the cheap unskilled labor to Latin America,”
Then we will be back to the fear that many already hold: America cannot support itself because we rely on other countries to produce FOR us (for example, China). We don’t want to be any more production dependent than we already are. We need to make our own things!
If we want labor, then we need to do it correctly. Let people work but let’s know who they are, how much they are making, and how many taxes they are paying.
@ gkotthardt
Bologney. If the world order totally collapsed and we had to turn back to an agrarian society we would do just that in quick order.
If China decides they’re not going to sell us their rice, India is standing right behind them glad and ready to fill the need.
It would be INSANE to refuse the consumer power weilded by the US.
@kgotthardt
The corporate farmers which we HEAVILY subsidize appreciate your sentiment. But Asia and India are laughing at us as they educate themselves and pass us up in the global economy while we get swindled by fallacies fed to us by our politicians (bankrolled by those same corporate farmers) that tell us we’re all going to starve to death if we don’t keep these corporate farmers affloat. Oh yeah, and stop shipping American Jobs overseas!
Mando,
Your posts are taking on a shrill and desperately irrational tone.
Here’s what to do. Run to the bathroom. Fill the bathtub with water and ice.
Jump in.
@Kgotthardt
Don’t you see the irony? Those jobs being filled by illegal aliens are the same jobs that “Americans don’t want to do” which are the same jobs that politicians use in their warcry “Stop Shipping American Jobs Overseas!”
We’re all being sold that bridge in Brooklyn.
@Mackie
The running around in cirlces I witness in this forum drives me nuts. Then I take a break.
Some people relish running in cirlces and chasing tales. I can’t stand it thus the machine gun approach then I take a leave of absense to regain my sanity.
Luckily for the rest of us, U.S. immigration policy is not written by falsely indoctrinated internet posters. That plan is laughably out of touch with the reality of the economic issues we are facing, as well as the political landscape.
Just hilarious. Ten years of militarized borders, escalating crime while all local law enforcement is paralyzed, and a collapsing economy the likes of which we have never seen as Baby Boomers retire and no one replaces them, and new enterprise becomes impossible because there is no one to do the work.
Not a single provision in your “plan” has any chance of being part of the solutions we reach next year. Unresearched and ill-conceived ideas such as these will, at best, delay the inevitable.
The fake email blast and heavily censored blogging tricks that bamboozeled our local Board of Supervisors in 2007 simply will not work on a national level in 2009.
There are economic consequences, and there are humanitarian and civil rights implications that will not be ignored by Congress or our next President no matter how many people type up a crudely anachronistic Anti-Immigrant Lobby “plan.”
And WhyHereWhyNow continues with the same old claptrap. Waiting for the applause and kudos…
Moon howler,
First off, the 14th can be fixed if it is interpreted the way it is written and the way the framers designed it to be. Because the US has to be PC, they allow it to be interpreted the way it is.
Who said anything about issuing credit cards? You didn’t read what was there, I suggest you go back and re read the post.
The reason for the 90 days is for those here ILLEGALLY to get out of the country without being separated or risking going to jail. I guarantee you if people on welfare have the benefits cut they will find work to do so they can eat.
Mando,
I hear ya!!!!!!! The leaves of absence seem to come sooner and sooner each time.
After reading the great opening article, I thought I might have stumbled across a group that shared my views and interests. Unfortunately, after browsing over the comments, I’m not sure that we share the same reality, let alone our personal views on the issues.
What, exactly, is the objection to immigration?
Lower wages for US workers?
Corruption of US ethnic purity by Latinos and others?
The risk of Bad Guys, such as Timothy McVeigh, entering the US?
The conviction that fine points of law should supersede basic human needs and human rights?
It’s not easy to appreciate a fear of “breaking down US working conditions” expressed in the same column of text that recommends sending US jobs to countries were labor is cheaper and standards are lower.
I’ve never been able to determine just what might be the fundamental ethnic character of the US. It appears to be Germanic-Celtic-African-Sino humanoid. It is the land where the English language and MacDonald’s prevail. It has always grudgingly permitted the inevitable diversity of an occupied territory, since the vast majority of its residents have roots in distant lands.
I don’t like to discuss “race” because race has no biological foundation. The dynamics of what is seen in the US as “racism” are clearly at work in Japanese attitudes toward Koreans. There are no discernible racial differences between Japanese and Koreans, but that did not stop the Japanese from “racializing” a group the Japanese chose to view as inferior. The US chooses to see Obama as a member of some African American “race” while knowing full well that the man’s mother was white as snow. How did Obama achieve his Black racial purity?
US security is a myth. Current measures to protect the nation from outsiders do little more than prevent people from carrying too much hand lotion while traveling. The measures also ensure that people with prosthetics or metallic joint replacements are properly detained from boarding aircraft. Building a wall across the US-Mexican border guarantees traffic jams for both nations. I guess nobody cares of some crazed kid in Seattle builds an atomic bomb, just to watch it go boom.
My own simple-minded view is that people who are hungry will seek food, laws notwithstanding. Since such places as Mexico and China and El Salvador are ALREADY the chosen sites for operations of US owned and Multinational factories and businesses, (I think this is called “free trade” or something like that) I don’t think that Jose and Maria will wreck your financial empire when they cross the border to wash your windows.
OK, the US is a nation of laws, and it has far too many laws. I guess I don’t walk on very high moral ground, but if my child were hungry, I would certainly steal scraps from your table. That’s about all the immigrants get in the US.
Of course, I’m currently residing in Mexico, so I’ve undoubtedly inherited the characteristics of an inferior “race.” We used to call that race “human.” Its somewhat diverse members were stubbornly insistent about such things as food and shelter. In fact, they were so obtuse that they pursued food and shelter without first consulting laws or lawyers. Some people!!
Medic,
You cannot ‘fix’ constitutional amendments. Here is what it says (in part):
It says what it says. How else would you interpret it? What Judge is going to say, ‘errrr…well…born doesn’t really mean born‘
To change it would mean to repeal it and start over. The framers, in this case, were attempting to grant citizenship to former slaves. I don’t think repealing the 14th amendment is going to go over very well in 2008.
Mando, and then there is also reality. I suggest you start dealing.
Wait, I’m confused, is this still the Anti blog? Sounds more like a HSM splinter group! Keep it up.
Moon-howler, how do you put up with these intelectual dwarfs day after day?
Your conversation with /(*/*?*??/ reminds me of a mother dealing with a child who repeats the word “Why?” to every answer she gives. I can already hear the next five lines:
“We can’t amend the United States Constitution to conform to a small minority of bigots.”
“WHY?”
“Because a Constitutional Amendment requires a two thirds majority in both houses of Congress, and bigots do not have a majority in any of our states, nor any of our districts.”
“WHY?”
“Because we live in the 21st century and there’s been progress.”
“WHY?”
“Because our founding fathers set ideals of freedom and equality that we must strive to achieve if we truly embrace our legacy as Americans.”
“WHY?”
Yeah, it’s so boring on the other blog we have to come over here. What the f___ is Greg doing? Not a GOD damn thing, someone tell him get off his a$$ and write some new threads.
Note: Administrator removed profanity and altered other profanity.
God forgive me, I am going to defend Greg.
I believe he is working and supporting his family. That is hardly an ignoble endeavor. He isn’t the black velvet’s butt monkey, sitting around to waiting entertain the bloggers.
Anonymous, if you are going to drop the F bomb, at least come up with a moniker.
Second Alamo,
Perhaps it is the company. I am guessing you got tired of reading the black velvet sound bites.
Obama Sued in Philadelphia Federal Court on Grounds he is Constitutionally Ineligible for the Presidency by Jeff Schreiber
http://www.americasright.com/2008/08/obama-sued-in-philadelphia-federal.html
WHY?
LOL, I am famous for asking the question and pulled a Britney, opps, I did it again on:
http://scheney.wordpress.com/
After reading the great opening article, I thought I might have stumbled across a group that shared my views and interests. Unfortunately, after browsing over the comments, I’m not sure that we share the same reality, let alone our personal views on the issues.
What, exactly, is the objection to immigration?
Lower wages for US workers?
Corruption of US ethnic purity by Latinos and others?
The risk of Bad Guys, such as Timothy McVeigh, entering the US?
The conviction that fine points of law should supersede basic human needs and human rights?
It’s not easy to appreciate a fear of “breaking down US working conditions” expressed in the same column of text that recommends sending US jobs to countries were labor is cheaper and standards are lower.
I’ve never been able to determine just what might be the fundamental ethnic character of the US. It appears to be Germanic-Celtic-African-Sino humanoid. It is the land where the English language and MacDonald’s prevail. It has always grudgingly permitted the inevitable diversity of an occupied territory, since the vast majority of its residents have roots in distant lands.
I don’t like to discuss “race” because race has no biological foundation. The dynamics of what is seen in the US as “racism” are clearly at work in Japanese attitudes toward Koreans. There are no discernible racial differences between Japanese and Koreans, but that did not stop the Japanese from “racializing” a group the Japanese chose to view as inferior. The US chooses to see Obama as a member of some African American “race” while knowing full well that the man’s mother was white as snow. How did Obama achieve his Black racial purity?
US security is a myth. Current measures to protect the nation from outsiders do little more than prevent people from carrying too much hand lotion while traveling. The measures also ensure that people with prosthetics or metallic joint replacements are properly detained from boarding aircraft. Building a wall across the US-Mexican border guarantees traffic jams for both nations. I guess nobody cares of some crazed kid in Seattle builds an atomic bomb, just to watch it go boom.
My own simple-minded view is that people who are hungry will seek food, laws notwithstanding. Since such places as Mexico and China and El Salvador are ALREADY the chosen sites for operations of US owned and Multinational factories and businesses, (I think this is called “free trade” or something like that)
I don’t think that Jose and Maria will wreck your financial empire when they cross the border to wash your
windows.
Info,
I just finished listening to one of the most inspiring speeches I have heard in my life and you put that crap up?
That is old news. August 21.
If you must do your drive bys, at least be current. I don’t know what you are attempting to prove. Your news is irrelevant to this blog unless you are putting it up for all the former velvets who are now here, and who are engaging in responsible debate.
Moonhowler,
SOOOOO inspired by that speech! I have been glued to the convention night after night:)
MH,
I had the exact same thought when I saw Info’s “news” that I read last week.
MH and DG,
A great night (and week!) to be a Democrat!
WHWN, They are entitled to their opinon and as long as they are courteous and don’t name call, I will discuss with them.
DG, totally awesome. I wasn’t prepared for such a moving speech.
Welcome Ted,
How long have you been in Mexico?
You may want to look at other threads to understand a little more where this blog “sits”.
I agree with you, 100%, if my children were hungry, I would risk anything. Like I have said before “there but for the grace of G-d go I”
There must be a way to talk about immigration that undertakes the totality of the human element.
Obama’s speech was electrifying. He was determined and showed a resolve I had not seen before. I hope many people will connect with his message of finding common ground.
Ted Davis, your post was outstanding. Thank you for a fresh perspective. You so easily dispatched with the nonsensical arguments of our two anti-immigrant philosophers, I can’t imagine why it would bother you that they are here to entertain us. Please join our discussion. In time you will come to appreciate the fact that the anti-immigrant clones post and repost such thoroughly disproven arguments.
Without them, we’d quickly resolve the immigration issue, which would rob future visitors of an opportunity to observe the Anti-Immigrant Lobby being debunked, discredited, and defeated.
And, if indeed McCain’s pick is not Mitt Romney, I will be in a much better mood.
Moon-Howler, more power to you. It was a rhetorical question anyway. I’ve gotten caught up in the “WHY?” game a few times myself.
whwn, when I grow weary, I stop answering. I had a long nap today. What a nice, rainy afternoon for a long nap. So who do you think McCain has chosen? Who do you see as an ideal running mate for McCain?
I was a Hillary supporter. However, Obama’s speech tonight might be the ‘I have a Dream Speech’ of the 21st century. It definitely caught my attention.
Mando et al don’t believe in the value of “Made in America” I guess.
\/\3|)iç 64, 28. August 2008, 13:14 said:
Wow Marie,
Race had NOTHING to do with the raid in MS.
Medic,
I am not stupid. I know race had nothing to do with the raid. It was the separation of the latinos from the blacks and whites that bothered me. Does looking like a latino give one the right to separate them out of the crowd? What bothers me even more is the assumption that all latinos are perceived to be illegal and that all the whites and blacks are either legal or citizens. The article says there was a tip and ICE responded. I am sure they did not know the identity or status of the latinos, whites or blacks.
Marie,
I feel confident they questioned EVERYONE because latinos DO NOT have the market cornered on being ILLEGAL aliens. I didn’t see anywhere in the article state they were separated out. Please show that to me.
MH,
The jurisdiction thereof is the key sentence. They are here ILLEGALLY so they do not fall under that verbiage of the amendment.
WHWN,
I am far from a child. If you research the 14th amendment by looking at the debates to ratify it; you would see that the framers DID NOT intend for it to be used the way it is today. All it takes is the supreme court to interpret it the way it was originally intended and not succumb to the PC way of interpretation.
This is true. It couldn’t be more obvious that the 14th Amendment was interpreted differently from the lawmakers’ intention. Now that the real-world implications are so dramatic, this needs to be revisited.
Rick,
It needs to be revisited without emotion and PC. It is paramount for the US!! The research I have done all points to the interpretation of it. The judges have let emotion and PC rule the case instead of having the law rule the case. We can not absorb the people already here. That is a given. We can not afford amnesty in any form actually. We have veterans living on the streets. People that fought for the very freedoms we all enjoy. Yet they are left to the streets. There is only so much pie for everyone. When someone takes a bigger chunk, it leaves others with less. With ILLEGALS taking more than their share with services offered through welfare, that leaves less for the veterans that risked their lives for us as a nation. Is that the way we, as a nation, should reward them for their service?
Medic,
Please watch the video which was posted by Mackie, 28. August 2008, 4:34 I find it hard to believe that ICE questioned everyone, since there were over 500 arrested. I have no clue how many other workers were in the plant. It would have taken them hours and hours to question everyone. It appears they just went in and separated everyone and arrested the latinos. I guess they believe in the old adage “kick ass and then take names”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYQ7f468LME
Medic,
there is a wealth of information, by non partisan organizations that differ with your analysis of the positive productivity of immigrants that make up much of our unskilled labor. Take a look over at Council of Foreign Relations http://www.cfr.org, you will find very credible research that differs with your “immigration” plan. We have set up a failing system and now its time to fix it. The reason the anmensty was a bad idea in the 80’s was that they did not address the underyling problem. Rule of law has to have sanity attached to it, and the immigration system, in its current form, is insane! However, in the end, you cannot simply dismiss the human factor with immigration, well, maybe you can, but I can’t.
Medic said:
“We can not absorb the people already here. That is a given.”
What?! That has to be some kind of joke. How can you support that position, when right here in Northern VA we have a 3% unemployment rate. In case you missed it in your economics class, unemployment levels under 5% indicate a labor shortage.
WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE TO DO THE JOBS THAT ARE ALREADY AVAILABLE! Not all American’s are willing to up and move from where they grew up to where jobs are located. I grew up in Western NY…the furniture factories moved out even before the 70’s and 80’s when I was a kid. It’s a dying town, but I’m the only one from my family that doesn’t still live there. Lot’s of people refuse to move “where the jobs are”. Some will and that’s great, but not everyone will and there is no way to force American citizens to move elsewhere to get a better job.
My company is desperate for good, educated workers and we can’t find enough people to fill these well paying jobs in this area. With baby boomers retiring, we are going to need more people in the workforce, not fewer. Not finished, but I have to sign off.
Marie,
Neither you nor I were there when ICE raided the place. They had investigated the claim for quite some time before the raid, so I feel confident they already knew who was LEGAL and who wasn’t. That is the key point your missing here, they investigated this for quite some time BEFORE the raid. It would seem reasonable that is how they knew exactly who to go for.
Marie,
I would hardly credit a report with the headline “U. S. Gestapo Attacks Immigrants In Miss.” as having legitimacy as a news organization. Further more, the immigrant activist named “Chandler” who is speaking was not at the scene of the raid but rather speaks of “getting reports”.
A lot of people get flack on this site for quoting organizations with an anti (illegal) immigrant stance as using biased sources. Well, this one goes the other way in being biased and should be discredited as the other side is. Lets be fair. This organization has a pro illegal agenda much as the other side has anti illegal agenda. But lets point them both out or your argument loses legitimacy.
Twinad,
I also remember from my economics class that if more is paid out than is taken in you have a deficit. You argument only holds water if these people are filling the tech sector jobs here. The research I have read shows that the ILLEGALS here are not qualified to fill those positions because of lack of education. Not only that, being here ILLEGALLY they can not get cleared to do some of the Gov’t jobs on the market here. So before you get all up in arms about ECO 101, be sure to have jobs for ALL of the ILLEGALS that are here before we accept them into the fold. It is a proven fact that the unskilled ILLEGAL alien has reduced the wages for Americans. It isn’t that they are doing jobs Americans won’t do, they are doing jobs that Americans won’t do for the wages being paid. It is easy to pay brown slave labor minimum wage because many live in a house and pool their resources. An American family can not afford to live on the same amount of money a month that an ILLEGAL alien can.
Twinad,
I closed my business in 1999 and moved from IL to VA because of a better paying tech job. Unfortunately, it was one that was lost during the dot com bust. Is hind sight 20/20, sure. If I had it to do over again knowing what I know, I would have stayed in IL. However, I found another tech job out here and continued to live in VA.
People WILL move if they are hungry enough. For those that do not, do not gripe and complain about being poor if you are not willing to go where the jobs are.
Medic,
The jurisdiction part is a double edge sword. Were it interpretted differently, you would have to say people here illegally were not under our jurisdiction. I believe that the jurisdiction part was inserted to include American Indian tribes.
If they are under our jurisdiction, they must obey our laws. The only exception would foreign diplomats. They are not subject to our laws.
At any rate, the courts decided that one a long time ago and I seriously doubt if you are going to get a constitutional amendment started. It says what is says.
Elena,
If citing a source, please give a bit more information then just the website because I didn’t see anything on it in regards to your post. I am sure the content is refreshed on a daily, if not hourly basis.
Maybe this will help:
http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/VOICES09/808280322/1057/COLUMNISTS
For an exercise in total misinformation, visit http://www.bvbl.net and read the thread about “One Less Radical Teaching Our Children” That’s a real HISSSSSSer of an article and the comments are full of erroneous “facts.”
How many misinformed people can there be on one blog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Medic,
Okay, I’ll tackle yours one by one.
“I also remember from my economics class that if more is paid out than is taken in you have a deficit. You argument only holds water if these people are filling the tech sector jobs here. The research I have read shows that the ILLEGALS here are not qualified to fill those positions because of lack of education. Not only that, being here ILLEGALLY they can not get cleared to do some of the Gov’t jobs on the market here. So before you get all up in arms about ECO 101, be sure to have jobs for ALL of the ILLEGALS that are here before we accept them into the fold. ”
American citizens should be educated and trained to take the tech sector jobs and government jobs. They should be aspiring to those positions, not the night janitorial crew jobs at office buildings, fast food service jobs, maid/laundry positions at hotels, food prep jobs at the restaurants we eat at. The jobs I just listed will never pay above the GOVERNMENT MANDATED minimum wage. “Illegals” are not getting jobs below minimum wage and those jobs will never pay enough for an American family to subsist on. The vast majority of “illegals” are employed! Day laborers make up a very small fraction of the total “illegal” population. The fact is that there are jobs for all of them…that’s why they came here!!!!!!
“It is a proven fact that the unskilled ILLEGAL alien has reduced the wages for Americans. It isn’t that they are doing jobs Americans won’t do, they are doing jobs that Americans won’t do for the wages being paid. It is easy to pay brown slave labor minimum wage because many live in a house and pool their resources. An American family can not afford to live on the same amount of money a month that an ILLEGAL alien can.”
As I said before, employers are not paying less than minimum wage. Jobs that pay minimum wage do so because they are not required to pay more. We can’t just make hotel maid jobs pay $18/hour because that is what an American is willing to do the job for! It’s not realistic. And by the way, most “illegals” I know are paid well more than minimum wage…not all “illegals” work in the lowest rung jobs, though many do. They came here to seek a better life…that is why there are so many stories of immigrants coming here and opening their own businesses 10 years after they get here. Gotta go again.
Anaconda,
If you know facts to be wrong, then why not post the correct ones? It is easy for me to come in here and post the sky is pink and not provide a photo of the pink sky.
Was over there on bvbl, Anaconda and I agree with you. I am amazed how many false facts they can report. Totally misinformed. Don’t disagree or ask questions. They get mighty defensive and ugly.
While I may crawl on my belly there are just some places I will NOT go.
Allow me to give you an example. Personnel records are exempt from FOIA requests.
Twinad,
Ok, I will tackle yours one by one.
I agree they should be educated to take those jobs, however, they can not be when the class is dragged down by ESOL learning and ILLEGAL aliens that do not have the same learning support at home.
You say the vast majority of ILLEGAL aliens are employed, how is this possible LEGALLY? What identity has been stolen/compromised to provide them with the “proper” documentation to work there? Case in point, many of those rounded up recently in MS face felony ID theft charges. The only reason there are jobs for them here is because they are able and willing to work for a lower wage, such as the janitor and housekeeping jobs. By pooling their resources, they can live 10-15 per house and still have money left over to buy the SUV’s and send some home.
Let’s think about it a bit,
1 ILLEGAL aliens working 10 hr day @ $6.55/ hour = $66.50
10 ILLEGAL aliens working 10 hr days @ $66.50/day = $655.00
10 ILLEGAL aliens working 22 days per month = $14,400
with a given of 22% for “taxes” = $11,239 a month
with a given that 40% is sent home = $6,743 to live on a month or $80,926 a year.
Now let’s think about the US citizen:
1 US Citizen working a 10 hour day @ 6.55/hr = $66.50
1 US citizen working 22 days per month = $1,440
with a given of 22% for taxes = $ 1,123 a month to live on or $13,487 a year
Is there not a HUGE disparity in how things are done for those living and working the right way?
I agree jobs that pay minimum wage are jobs that do not require a great deal of skill. I am sure there are a few HS drop outs that can do the work as well. I agree that the wage per hr for the maid is not 18, however, if it is a FAIR wage, the US Citizen WILL do the work. As long as you can make 10-14/hr on welfare, where is the incentive to get a job. It is easer to sit at home and complain about the job market. I have to question again the LEGALITY of ILLEGAL aliens opening their own business. I know they have to have a SSN to do so. How is it possible for them to get one?
It boils down to what I said before, if an employer pays a FAIR wage for the work, you will have US citizens there to do the work. If you want to pay only minimum or a depressed wage, you will have the brown slave class there to do the work.
The sooner we remove the incentives for ILLEGAL aliens to be here, the sooner the economy will turn around. US citizens will not be sending remittances back to their “home country”. That money will be re-injected into the economy which in turn gets injected back into business and the circle continues. I can not fathom how hard it is for people to understand this simple concept.
Truth Seeker, the black velvets do seem very concerned with JS’s employment but the fact that a regular poster on their blog is also a sub and a member of a nativist organization doesn’t appear to bother them. Hmmm.
Censored,
Maybe they do not know that. You should run over there and tell them real quick.
Sheesh, the childish antics.
I am looking for a blog that isn’t so consumed by another blog. This is getting real old real fast.
Censored, as you know, what is sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. The Red Circles do not seem to want to play by the same rules as others.
medic, I think everyone knows the statement censored just made. Most of us do not feel compelled to put someone’s livelihood in peril. That seems to be more the speed of the Red Circles. ‘ Let’s see who we can keep from earning a living today’ mentality.
It will be interesting to see you MEDIC in a couple of years. All those Anchor babies that you “accidentally” and happily hit in the supermarkets will be paying for your SS…or maybe not….
Just for those of you who are not familiar with Medic’s posting in the other blog. He doesn’t mind hitting with his cart young Hispanic kids. He told this story without any regrets. I am not surprised now, knowing the source, that he wants to change the 14th amendment. What do you have to say about that Medic?
So, Medic, where was your voiced objection to the discussion at BVBL? Strangely silent.
Medic, ramming Latino kids with your shopping cart? I have three words for you:
Dis. Gust. Ting.
Plenty TH,
I didn’t say I enjoyed running over the little hispanic kids nor did I say it was only those. Since you are so interested in drudging up the past, please post the comment here so others can see it in its entirety. Maybe you should bring up the entire post instead of paraphrasing, because you OBVIOUSLY missed some of it. OH wait, that is the thing people like you do, you pick and choose which part fits your way of thinking or suits you and post that. I see now.
What I did post was they were running in the store and came around the corner and ran INTO MY cart. I looked over the end of it and told them to stop running and go find their mother.
The 14th amendment was enacted to allow slaves ALREADY present and those born to SLAVES ALREADY present, to be granted citizenship. That was the ONLY intent of the 14th. PC has managed to get it twisted into what it is today. BTW, TH, it will SEVERAL years before I can even think about drawing SS. By that time, the likes of Obama will have it to the point that I will have paid into a system that is no longer solvent and will see no benefit.
Censored,
Did I post in regards to the particular thread? No, I didn’t because I have no direct or general knowledge about it or those involved.
See this is where I differ from a few, if I have not researched it and have a general understanding of the subject matter, I let it alone. I do not have to type a post or attack people just to see my name come up on the blog.
See, before you know ALL of the facts, you start in. I forgot which thread that was in, but I will look for it.
AHH,
with a little research:
http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2008/06/16/but-can-the-employees-speak-english/#comment-68118
/\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 16 Jun 2008 at 11:46 am:
I have hit one of the little bugers rounding the corner at Shoppers. I peered over the cart and told them to stop running and to find their mother. I guess because I didn’t feel responsible for the accident, I was less than human. I look at it this way, if the little tike had been by his mom’s side instead of running around the store, the accident would not have happened. I felt no responsibility in it what so ever since my cart was parked and I was looking at a product on the shelf.
HMM,
I didn’t say anything about hispanic, nor did I say anything about doing it on purpose. Again, before you start in on trying to start $hit, be prepared!!
Waiting for the apologies that will most likely NOT come along. LOL, why would I expect people to act like adults and take responsibility for making a false accusation.
BTW,
yes I have admitted when I was wrong and I have apologized to a person that posts on this blog. She knows who she is.
Medic, I’m curious about why you call anyone out here – calling it “childish” to note the hypocrisy at BVBL. I didn’t mention the poster’s name. I think everyone at BVBL knows it. Why didn’t you make the same argument there – not to screw with someone’s employment? Is it okay if it’s JS or someone with similar political beliefs? Why not go and tell them that’s it’s unacceptable to be messing with someone’s livelihood?
/\/\3|)iç 64 is the winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award. Is /\/\3|)iç 64 trying to be the winner of the Anti-bvbl 40k and 50k post award? I see he/she is posting here quite a lot. Don’t see too much of him/her on the dark screen.
* shaking head*
censored,
Again, I do not know all of the information, so I will not go off on a tangent about slamming someone about what they posted. Seems you might be better off to adhere to the ole proverb, keep your mouth shut and let others think you are a fool then open it and remove all doubt.
Marie, does it bother you that I am not posting much over there and posting here? BTW, I am a he.
I can now see why people complain about this blog. Seems anyone without the blog posters little world opinion is easy fodder for their attacks and such. Interesting. Chase everyone off and you will not have anyone to “debate” the issues with since everyone will be in agreement.
I left once to get away from the bull$hit. I came back thinking that MAYBE things had changed and the blog as a whole was able to move on, but I see that not much has changed and this will soon be a blog of posters that will eventually run everyone off until the little clique is in place. Interesting since I thought this was suppose to be a place that was DIFFERENT than the other blog. I can’t see much difference right now except the layout and the fact anti is in the URL.
Medic Said
“I agree they should be educated to take those jobs, however, they can not be when the class is dragged down by ESOL learning and ILLEGAL aliens that do not have the same learning support at home”.
Really? Interesting. My son just finished kindergarten at a PWC school that is 60 %Latino. I chaperoned several field trips last year and my son’s particular class had 18 students, 12 of which were Latino. (13 if you include my son who is mixed.) Every kid in that class spoke English. Maybe not as perfectly as my son, but those who say that the kids are dragging down the native speakers are wrong. My son was not held back in the least and was identified as gifted (along with another Hispanic kid and one white kid). A couple of the white kids had to go to summer school, but I guarantee you it wasn’t because the other kids held them down. The two white kids that had to go to summer school just weren’t the sharpest tools in the shed.
Medic Said: You say the vast majority of ILLEGAL aliens are employed, how is this possible LEGALLY? What identity has been stolen/compromised to provide them with the “proper” documentation to work there? Case in point, many of those rounded up recently in MS face felony ID theft charges. The only reason there are jobs for them here is because they are able and willing to work for a lower wage, such as the janitor and housekeeping jobs. By pooling their resources, they can live 10-15 per house and still have money left over to buy the SUV’s and send some home.
Let’s think about it a bit,
1 ILLEGAL aliens working 10 hr day @ $6.55/ hour = $66.50
10 ILLEGAL aliens working 10 hr days @ $66.50/day = $655.00
10 ILLEGAL aliens working 22 days per month = $14,400
with a given of 22% for “taxes” = $11,239 a month
with a given that 40% is sent home = $6,743 to live on a month or $80,926 a year.
Now let’s think about the US citizen:
1 US Citizen working a 10 hour day @ 6.55/hr = $66.50
1 US citizen working 22 days per month = $1,440
with a given of 22% for taxes = $ 1,123 a month to live on or $13,487 a year”
So let me get this right? You are trying to argue that one citizen working at minimum wage should be able to live on their own? Who works a minimum wage job and expects to support a family? People who work minimum wage jobs (even American citizens) have ROOMMATES!
“With a given that 40% is sent home”! Wow, that’s pretty bold and unsubstantiated. And, how do YOU know 40% of take home pay is sent out the country in remitttances? How many “illegals” do you personally know? Just wondering, because I know about 100 and even the one person that I know that sends a lot of his money home to support his wife and 3 kids only sends 25%. The vast majority send less than a few hundred dollars a month, which usually equates to 5-10% of their take home pay (after taxes). Don’t just throw out percentages as a “given” with nothing to back it up. I only have as backup the people that I know, and I know there is NO WAY it is even close to 40% for an average immigrant.
Sorry you don’t like to be challenged, which is what I am doing. I don’t think I am being particularly nasty, just trying to show others not to buy your fear mongering BS.
No, Medic it does not bother me in the least that you are posting over here. I was just surprised to see that you do not post much on BVBL and that you have increased your posts here. Actually, I appreciate other points of view and find I can always learn something from them. As long as the debate does not resort to name calling, I am fine with it and I value everyone’s right to express differing points of view. I do not particularly agree with you but that is ok.
All these posts are the opinions and the ideals we have formed based on our own individual life’s experiences. I thank God we are not “cookie cutter” people. The world would be so boring.
Medic,
When I have time, maybe tonight, I will go through and find my past posts where I reference the CFR. You can actually do a search on their site if you don’t want to wait for me to repost. Either way, I will repost. Maybe I”ll even do a topic thread on one of their articles.
twinad,
In Kindergarten, it is easy to maintain classroom decorum. Much easier than it is in HS, I know this for a fact because my mother teaches at the HS school for “problem students”. Congrats on your son and his accomplishments.
OK, you know more about EXACTLY how much is sent home on a regular basis, however, if you will notice that was a hypothetical and not stated as fact. Since none of the “employees” exact wage is, it is hard to say. I was being generous in saying 40% going back home. If it is less, then it is not hard to change the HYPOTHETICAL used.
I have no issue with being challenged in the least, I take issue with being attacked and have things posted as what I said when indeed it was NOT what I posted. You are the one calling out names now as fear mongering BS. I have not said anything you post is apologetic BS. You are entitled to your opinion as am I. I just do not feel I should be attacked here because I do not see things in an Amnesty light. I see ALL ILLEGAL aliens as humans whether you want to believe it or not. They have made a choice to come here ILLEGALLY, now they have to live with that choice and face the consequences of possible deportation. You do not like the fact that they have to and maybe you are a bit biased since you are with one that is not here LEGALLY if I remember correctly from your previous posts. If that is not true, then I apologize in advance.
If the ILLEGALS are paying taxes, who is getting the credit for the taxes paid?
TWINAD
Many do not know the real facts. They base everything on myths and innuendos. I know about 50 or more undocumented immigrants. They all work and work long hours. Hey, they ALL pay taxes. They file their Federal and State income tax every year. They believe paying taxes will be their ticket to get papers. They use the federal tax id’s and pin numbers issued by our Federal Gov’t, not fake SSN’s as some believe. Most all work as subcontractors. They all send money home to help brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers but it is no where close to 40% of their pay. A few US dollars in Mexico and Central America goes a long way to support a family. All their children speak English and make better than average grades in school. They do not live 15 to a household and they do not all own SUVS. I wish people would just STOP, get the real facts and develop informed views.
Marie,
I agree we should not be cookie cutter people as well.
Elena,
If you would give me the phrase you wish me to use I can and will search for it. I just want to make sure I am seeing exactly what you are referring to and not something totally off the wall. I would like to have an informed debate about it. I think that would be appreciated in any forum. I have read quite a bit about the 14th from various websites, including law school ones. It has not all been from one side.
Medic said “with a given that 40% is sent home.” Those were your exact words, not mine.
That kind of statement does not say to anyone “hypothetical” as you try to claim above. When something is a given, it is generally considered as fact. So if you were just throwing a number out there, don’t say it’s a given if you mean it’s hypothetical.
I am a legal, home grown citizen. I am married to an “illegal” and I assist a lot of “illegals” with financial matters so that is how I know so much about their finances. Yes, some “illegals” live 10 to a household; again, the vast majority do not.
Twinad,
giv·en Audio Help /ˈgɪvən/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[giv-uhn] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb
1. pp. of give.
–adjective
2. stated, fixed, or specified: at a given time.
3. addicted or disposed (often fol. by to): given to making snide remarks.
4. bestowed as a gift; conferred.
5. assigned as a basis of calculation, reasoning, etc.: Given A and B, C follows.
6. Mathematics. known or independently determined: a given magnitude.
7. (on official documents) executed and delivered as of the date shown.
–noun
8. an established fact, condition, factor, etc.
My use is from the 5th definition and yours is the 8th.
Since I didn’t state the example I was using as fact, it can be inferred that the 2nd and 5th definition were used. The 6th definition could be inferred as well since I was using the term in a mathematical equation.
If I had stated that the example was a fact from research done, then the 7th definition would be correct.
As far as the worker living on minimum wage, they have to work 2 jobs to barely survive. Even if they have a room mate, I personally would NEVER move into a place unless I could afford it on my own. Been there done that when I was young.
As I am sure the vast majority do not pay taxes while accepting cash. If that is the case the 22% in the example above would not be pertinent. Which increases the total. I was using the minimum wage as an example. I am sure most do not work for minimum wage so the numbers I posted are under what is actually being paid and brought home.
That should read the 8th not 7th in my post.
Medic,
It is simply NOT TRUE that most “illegals” are paid in cash. ALL of these raids that are conducted…do you seriously think these firms pay cash to some employees and pay others via check? Do you not see the number of Latino’s in lines at banks on Friday and Saturday to get their checks cashed? Anyone who is paid with a check PAYS taxes. It’s lucicrous to posit otherwise. Once again, only daylaborers are paid in cash and they represent a tiny minority of illegal workers. They are usually the newest immigrants or immigrants that for one reason or another don’t want to work every day.
If they are paid by check, where does the taxes withheld get credited to? As in the raid, many are being held on FELONY IDENTITY THEFT.
Who said the ILLEGALS are latinos? I have not specified which race they are. I have used the general term ILLEGAL alien.
You are saying that the people in the lines at the banks are ILLEGALS.
Why are you assuming those latinos in line are ILLEGAL?
Hi TWINAD, I have always admired your openness and honesty. However, you probably should have kept the following to yourself:
“I assist a lot of “illegals” with financial matters so that is how I know so much about their finances”
That could include taxes and if that is the case I certainly wouldn’t tell anyone. That would mean assisting known illegal aliens with filing bogus tax returns would could get you into a bunch of trouble. I don’t think that the feds look too kindly on people filing falsified tax returns for known illegal aliens.
Hello,
thanks for your concern, but no, I do not assist with preparing taxes. They go to tax preparers for that to get a Tax Id number and get their taxes done. I’ve seen plenty of tax returns because many of them don’t understand it and WANT to understand it, so I will explain it to them. I don’t even prepare my own taxes anymore let alone others. I help more with letters they get from banks to translate and my name is now on a number of bank accounts because many people are worried if they get caught up in a raid they will no longer be able to access their money to get access to an attorney. Nothing in the law says they can’t add someone to their bank account if they so choose.
Medic, read this info and become enlightened about how someone can pay taxes without a SS#.
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96287,00.html#what
Medic,
Anyone who gets paid by check has taxes directed to the exact same place as everyone else. “Illegals” are no different. “Illegals” use a bogus SS # that may or may not be tied to someone else. Honestly, I sincerely doubt very many Jose’s are working under the name John Smith with John Smith’s SS #. They get a fake # and it matches their REAL name. I hardly consider that Identity theft, although some do, but I also think this is lame. If someone has a job and has done nothing wrong but enter this country illegally, I think they should be able to get a SS # and work here legally. This is why there is a huge (in the billions) amount of SS taxes that are not tied to anyone because if the name and SS # don’t match, the money is in that unidentified “pot”.
Hi Medic,
I am glad you are here. Some of us were wondering about your whereabouts fairly recently.
Medic,
Just do a search for immigration and illegal immigration, that should give you lots of choices!
“People WILL move if they are hungry enough. For those that do not, do not gripe and complain about being poor if you are not willing to go where the jobs are.”
Yup. Why do you think we have immigration, legal and otherwise?
Furthermore, some hungry people are stuck. If you are poor and starving and don’t have time to think, do you believe people feel empowered enough to move? An IT job doesn’t translate well to the majority who has had to struggle to keep a home, feed a family, or own a running vehicle.
Let’s get in touch with hard reality, folks, not our own cushy realities. As a nation, we are spoiled rotten and take it for granted that “people can make their own futures.” This is a myth for most of the world.
TWIN, you are an incredibly brave woman and I salute you for your honesty and courage. If anything will help us get this mess resolved, it will be people like you who stand up and tell their stories.
AHH Medic,
I found what you said later. See that in one of your sentences you said, this is no just about the “Hispanic Kids”. So you were referrin g to a latino kid despectively:
# /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 17 Jun 2008 at 9:41 am:
“I agree Howard!! The little buggers can cause damage or harm by roaming free. Who is supervising their behqvior or preventing them from causing a spill which an elderly person slips in and breaks a hip therefore ruining their quality of life because someone allowed their children to roam free. This isn’t free range time at the grocery store. I will say something to the mother that swats her child on the a$$. I will go up to her and say I see you love your child, she looks at me surprised that I would say such a thing and I remind her in the Bible it says spare the rod, spoil the child. I reassure her that hse has done nothing wrong and to keep up the discipline because it will pay off later on.
This isn’t about just the hispanic kids, it is about ALL of them. I wasn’t allowed to run free in the grocery store, my children weren’t allowed to run free in the grocery store and these children should be either.”
For any of you that want to know there is a bit of a debate over on the black screen as to whether or not ESOL students or “criminal students” as one poster called them, are the cause of some Manassas City schools not making AYP. I think that after one looks at the VA DOE website school report card, one will find that though acheivement gaps still exist in this country among races, the hispanic/LEP students are making headway, and LEP students are NOT…NOT…NOT the cause of destruction to the public school system as some would like us to believe. Maybe this topic could be it’s own thread, and people here could offer ideas as to how to further close the achievement gap for LEP and african american students. Just a thought.
DB,
Thanks for the post. Did they have nerve enough to use their own name or were the anonymous with such statement? There seems to be a lot of anonymous posters over there. I guess making those kinds of statements one wouldn’t want the prejudices to show through so glaringly.
“Criminal student” how pathetic to call a child that. And on what basis would one make such a repulsive statement? I don’t ever recall “criminal” being a subset.
No they did not use their name. I am happy to say however other teachers took up the cause as well as I. Still, our responses have gone no where. Despite of the fact that the facts (SOL results) are online at the VA DOE website, there have been no…NO responses. I am so tired of ESOL/LEP students being blamed for the fact that schools do not make AYP, I am also tired of teachers put to the blame as well. I wish that all would look at the results, and understand the facets of AYP.
DB,
I saw what was poste over there. It was very interesting, and yes all should take the time. What about the students roll in their education? They should be held accountable too. To continue to bash teachers is simply sickening to me.
Could you post their website link for us?
Chris, the results of state-wide tests are in the computer. Go onto google and type in VA DOE then pick a district/and or school.
DB,
Thanks. I’m posting the link it took me sometime to get right there.
I’m reviewing SMS & SJHS now. I’ll get back to you later with my thoughts.
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/
DB,
If you will write the thread I will post it for you. Send it to me at
moon.howler07@yahoo.com.
That makes for an interesting discussion. Let me know when you have sent it.
MH,
I sent it to you.
DB
You are concerned about “…147 new unskilled workers…”.my question to you is: With five percent unemployment in this country, and most of those being unskilled workers, how does the number 147 justify your claim that the immigration system is broken?
With those kind of numbers, I’d say the 147 was 147 too many.
How low can you sink? Now the other side is suggesting children are criminals? How incredibly pathetic and sad they are.