Undocumented Teenager Commits Suicide After Arrest
LEAGUE CITY — The 17-year-old’s lifeless body was frozen in a sitting position in solitary-confinement at the Galveston County Jail.
Arturo Chavez’s back was flush against a 7-foot partition for the cell’s shower. A blue blanket was twisted into a noose, with one end wrapped around his neck, the other tied to a shower head.
He apparently hanged himself about 48 hours after being arrested for what started as an illegal left turn.
I have a son, he is almost seven, I can’t imagine him risking his life, crossing the Rio Grande, at the tender age of 13, hoping to attain the American dream. This is a story that exemplifies a crisis with our Southern neighbors and with our broken immigration system. Yes, its true, albiet he did it without proper papers, this boy risked his life to come here to create a better life for himself and for his family, imagine the inner strength it must have taken to make such a journey.
Arturo Chavez, 17, after being arrested for making an illegal left hand turn, reportedly panicked, attempting to flee from his jail cell. According to jail officers he was tasered and clubbed while attempting to escape over a fence.
From all accounts, he was a model immigrant, taking classes to learn English, proud of his Mayan heritage but also proud to be here in America, his ankle braclet displaying the red, white, and blue colors. He worked hard as a bus boy, hoping to move up to waiter. People will point out that he came here “illegally”, that he should not have been driving without a valid drivers license, and insurance. I agree with all that, but what I am wondering, is where is our soul as a nation, that we don’t raise this child up, praise him for risking so much, for being so brave to strive for the American dream as a mere child. How many teenagers do you know that exhibit such desire to better themselves and better their loved ones?
Those who knew Chavez said, like many undocumented immigrants, he feared any run-in with authorities as it would likely mean he would be deported.
He left Central America when he was 13 and wanted more out of life than he could get with tips loading baggage at a bus station.
Relatives say it took him nearly 15 days to get to Houston, including sneaking into Mexico and riding a passenger bus north.
He crossed the Rio Grande and hiked through South Texas.
Human smugglers demanded $3,500 to guide him, a hefty sum met with help from family and friends.
In Houston, he was known for his hustle and held out hope his improving English skills would get him promoted from busboy to waiter.
Chavez’s death was a mystery as much as a shock, said Mario Garcia, who owns the restaurant where Chavez worked.
“I don’t understand how you can go from making a mistake to losing your life, I’m dumbfounded by it,” Garcia said. “There are two sides to every story, and the truth is probably somewhere right in the middle.”
$100 sent home weekly
The kid known by his family as niño, Spanish for boy, had come a long way since leaving his indigenous village. He was sending home at least $100 a week to help his mother, father and sister.He was not only working full time, but attending Clear Creek High School’s program to help newly arrived international students.
He wore woven bracelets made of blue and white yarn — the colors of Guatemala’s flag — as well as an anklet with the U.S.A.’s red, white and blue.
“He was very proud of his Mayan heritage,” said Elizabeth Laurence, one of his teachers. “He was a feisty young fellow, popular and wanted to learn English very much. He wasn’t timid; he tried to use it.”
Things were going well with his girlfriend, Jhoseline Martell, whom he met at school.
As the police cruiser’s lights flashed behind him near Louisiana Street and League City Parkway, Chavez dialed Martell on his cell phone and stuffed it in his pocket.
“He said the police have stopped me, just listen,” recalled Martell, 15.
He normally rode a bicycle to avoid such trouble, but he had recently bought a used green Honda sedan.
He had no driver’s license, no insurance and what turned out later to be a fake identification card.
He was arrested and taken to jail. His mugshot was taken while he wore the red shirt from his job as a busboy.
Whilst I cannot condone anyone driving illegally I think we can respect a young man working hard to provide for his family and to better himself.
What a sad loss of a young life.
What type of people came to America? You had to be strong. The weak and ill died on the journey. You had to be willing to work hard. You had to be a risk taker. Those who didn’t want to take the risk stayed home. Brave. Not a quitter.
These qualities made America great. What if the pilgrims didn’t want to take the risk and stayed home? What if those at Jamestown thought it was too hard and gave up? What if Bill Gates had stayed in college and gotten a secure government job with health insurance and a retirement program? What if Stevie Ray Vaughan stayed in school?
People like Arturo Chavez fit right in with that bunch. He took a risk. He suffered temporarily with the hope of a long term reward. He worked hard, long hours for little pay. Sure, some immigrants get on a plane, are served a soft drink and are given a pillow and blanket, and they contribute in their way. But it’s those risk takers that made this country what it is.
But he’s illegal, they’ll say. In a country that was created by an act of treason, I guess he has even more in common with those that made this country great.
There is no logic, zero, in a position that anyone capable of killing themselves thereby deserves some type of amnesty from prosecution for crimes committed.
Alternately, maybe you’re saying that laws are unjust if some of the people who break them become distraught and commit suicide. There’s no logic in that either.
I’m sure some number of American citizens have killed themselves after losing jobs that they would have kept had we not become deliberately flooded with illegal aliens. I’m sure many an unemployed American became despondent over it.
Actions have consequences. While crossing the border illegally, if it was such a struggle, the thought must have passed through his mind “this is wrong”. If it wasn’t wrong, it wouldn’t be such a struggle. When one knowingly does something wrong, one should expect consequences. The degree and severity of those consequences will vary from not harsh enough, to way too harsh, but only a complete fool doesn’t realize that the consequences will not always be the same. Yet this young person continued with his illegal crossing into the US. Tough lesson, and the real sad part is that most who cross into the US illegally do not have the capacity to learn from the lesson.
Note: Your screenname is offensive, so it’s been altered. Additionally, your comments will go into moderation so that the handle can be changed. Thanks.
El Guapo is a Social Darwinist.
And the name calling begins.
Lighting a memorial candle for Arturo Chavez and his family. May the next life be kinder. God bless.
Not a name…a tradition and a term, sir/madame.
Social Darwinism
–noun Sociology. a 19th-century theory, inspired by Darwinism, by which the social order is accounted as the product of natural selection of those persons best suited to existing living conditions and in accord with which a position of laissez-faire is advocated.
“where is our soul as a nation, that we don’t raise this child up, praise him for risking so much, for being so brave to strive for the American dream as a mere child.”
Praise him for paying smugglers $3500 to get here?
Praise him for driving without a license?
Praise him for pursuing short-term profit even if he had to break the law?
Praise him for abandoning his own county and leaving it to the bandits who run it?
I didn’t come here to disrespect the dead, but PRAISE him? You must be joking. Pity maybe, but you want to PRAISE him?
Reading the story I note a few things you didn’t highlight :
His parents are SUING us over his death. This is the type of sick entitlement that your attempts at charity and welcoming bring.
He resisted arrest and fought the police.
He was in solitary confinement – which had to be due to bad behavior AFTER his arrest and confinement.
Rick, it could be this child was mentally ill. People who kill themselves generally are.
Why was a 17 year old minor sitting in a jail??? Why was he not in a juvenile detention center with others his own age?
I can not even begin to imagine the despair and hopelessness this youngster felt that led him to take his life. Another of many sad, sad stories.
The Marine that was the first killed in action in Iraq has some similarities to this story in that they both came here when they were 13. How differently the stories turned out, the Marine became legal and served in the US armed forces while this young man felt as if he had no hope and committe suicide.
There are some really good comments here and from everyone. El guapo, I was particularly impressed with what you had to say. All of this serves to point out that there are no easy answers.
For those suggesting staying home and fixing your own country…my original folks came from England during the 18th century. I guess I could say the same thing to them. Stay home and fix what is wrong with England. I don’t think so.
As for a revolution in some of these Central American countries and Mexico– do you really mean that SC and RB? Ever thought how destabilizing that would be to not only this country but also the entire western hemisphere? We are still suffering from the effects of that happening.
kgotthardt, 26. August 2008, 8:53
Rick, it could be this child was mentally ill. People who kill themselves generally are.
How do you know that he was mentally ill? There is nothing that says that in the article.
I’m not quite sure I get the whole “praising” part. We should be praising those that break the law? Would you praise your child or spouse for doing the same things that he did? I feel sorry for this family and for the fact that this young man felt he had no alternative but to kill himself, but saying that we should be praising him is wrong. Were this any a child that was here legally, would you be saying the same thing? By your logic, we should be “praising” the terrorists who attacked on 9/11 because “they risked so much”.
You Wish,
And there’s nothing in the article that said he was NOT mentally ill. I think anyone that has attemepted or did commit suicide has some serious mental issues. Would you NOT agree?
Given the circumstances this child was in, having been caught driving without a license, without insurance, having false documentation, panicking and allegedly running from the police, he surely knew that his dreams were over. Suicide in this situation does not necessarily equate to a “mental illness”. Additionally, he was extremely young, teenagers often do not completely understand the totality of taking your life, he was in a very vulnerable place and saw no way out. For those of you who say we should not praise him, I wonder, did you ever walk in his shoes, or any child like him? He risked his life, refusing to resign himself to a life of abject poverty, all this by the ripe old age of 13. He was going to school, working, not only supporting himself but his family. Yes, we should punish him for his inner fortitude (sarcasm here).
“In a country that was created by an act of treason, I guess he has even more in common with those that made this country great”
Wonderful comment. We have really whitewashed the history of this country.
Sometime Mr. Soy, the right thing can be a struggle. Certainly woman’s sufferage was, certainly unions in the late 1800’s which ended child labor and indentured employees were, certainly WWI and WWWII were and certainly the civil rights movement was. I don’t recall any of those movements being particularly easy, so would that make them wrong?
The current struggle is getting the latecomers on board regarding enviroment issues. Oh, pardon me, “Climate Control”.
At the very least, I would feel safe assuming he was severely depressed–and for good reason!
Hey, why aren’t the suicides of US Citizens who see the American dream slipping away, losing their homes, losing their jobs, marriages crumbling under financial strain, etc. being talked about here? Each is a tragedy, yes, but a tragedy of cowardice. I guess this is more “blood” on the hands of HSM, and others who just want US immigration laws enforces.
When is the term “personal accountability” going to enter the lexicon of the debate? The law is the law. Disobey the law, pay the price. This young-man chose a permanent solution to a temporary challenge. This isn’t civil disobedience. If you object to immigration laws, there are mechanisims to change them. HSM objected to an official policy put in place by the Chief of Police, that was contrary to US Law. They used the political process to change what they objected to, and did so quite effectively I might add. I say effectively, because they defeated the well-funded political force which was opposed to their efforts, a force that openly advocated disobeying US law, violating US sovereignty, and from a lot of independent reading done on my part, was aligned with anarchist, marxist revolutionary organizations. In this struggle, HSM was the “good guys” in my book.
Yes, it is a shame that this young man chose death over deportation. I imagine the thoght of being seperated from his girlfriend broke his heart. But, teens go through this every day, when their parents move them to other cities and states. It strikes me as this teen did something impulsive. The fact that he was here illegally is just a side-bar to the conversation. I’ll pray for his soul, but will also give thanks that while driving with no license, he didn’t kill some other teen, and cause great heartache to their parents.
Ed
I understand where you are coming from however, it feels to me that this country is focused soley on the illegal immigrant as opposed to those that attract them and support them once they are here. Once again, I will say until a CEO of a major company is video’d doing his/her perp walk and it is broadcast on FOX News with photos on the front page of the WSJ and NYT AND that person goes to Danbury (at the very least) we will make progress.
There are fewer illegal employers than there are illegal immigrants. Any statistician will tell you via pareto charting, the illegal employers are your biggest opportunity for success…
1) Both are equally as illegal
2) Continue to vote Republican to assure that scenario to NEVER happens
3) Where is the personal accountablility in our business leaders.
Again, it irks me when others are held to a standard we choose not to hold ourselves to.
PS – NOT supporting ilegal immigration, but think the approach should be more balanced and strategic….
You Wish,
Your analogy is completely illogical.
Juturna,
Eloquent, but are you assuming that not enforcing our immigration laws is “the right thing”?
I’ll save the moderator some time and alter my name myself. (I’m not that emotionally tied to it anyway.)
Actually, if you think about it, people kill themselves every day for many reasons, and people between 10-20 years old? Forget it. There’s so many weird things floating around their head to begin with because of hormonal changes, mental illness doesn’t even have to enter into it, although mental imbalance could have been a problem here. What I’m curious about is…is there an attempt to insinuate that this young man offed himself because of immigration enforcement in any way? People are arrested every day, and few of them off themselves. I’m thinking that’s why this story is posted here.
And Juturna,
I couldn’t agree with you more about having employers do the perp walk for really causing the problem in the first place. We did it for Sarbannes-Oxley, why not this too!
Thank you Soy for renaming your moniker.
“From all accounts, he was a model immigrant”
Immigrants that came here legally would probably not feel the same.
If you choose to break the rules then you must be prepared to accept the consequences when you are caught.
I suspect his incarceration didn’t HELP his mental health.
And whether teens are hormonal or “weird,” their issues are mental health issues. The brain, part of the body, goes through changes and should be checked up on. If the brain is tired or stressed, like the rest of the body, it will be more open to falling ill.
“As for a revolution in some of these Central American countries and Mexico– do you really mean that SC and RB?”
Yes. Social progress will never occur there if they keep being rewarded with remittances for sending their poor here.
It’s pretty well known that the last election in Mexico would have gone the other way were so many of their people not squatting over here.
From the linked article:
“At one point, when the holding-cell door was opened, Chavez bolted for freedom, according to a police report.”
LOL! So he “bolted for freedom”? How about, he tried to escape? What a load that article is.
Who is to say that his strides to be a model “citizen” wouldn’t have been taken into account? Consequences for your actions is PARAMOUNT!!! Without them, there is no deterrent for behavior.
If you come here ILLEGALLY, you have to know that you may be deported at a moments notice. If he had not been driving he would not have been stopped. If he had not been here ILLEGALLY, he would not have been stopped. My guess as to why he was in solitary is because they didn’t want to mix him with general population while they were awaiting transfer to a juvenile facility. I don’t see anything about how long he had been at the facility. This could have happened late in the day or in the evening. He may have been put in solitary for his own protection.
Consequences for your actions, whether it is ILLEGAL aliens or those who enable them. Until those who are involved are punished, this will continue.
Juturna and Ed, you are both right. We need to go after both the “illegal” aliens and the “illegal” employers. The point of all this is stopping unlawful behavior.
I too think it is a sad day when a young “adult” (not a child in my opinion at 17), decides to commit suicide for any reason. I object to the implication his death should be used as a martyr symbol, to sway people’s opinions and sympathies (a low unethical tactic) that they should condone and accept “illegal” behavior. That is a tactic a terrorist organization OR SOCIALIST PARTY would use to achieve a political OBJECTIVE. Yes, we can feel sorry for him and his family, but we can also support and defend the law and Denocracy for the reason it was created.
You say our immigration system is broken, because it does not let anyone into the country who wants to come here illegally. I say your ethics and understanding of Democracy are broken when you advocate we should not uphold law, allow un-controlled population growth and “illegal” immigration to the point it destroys our very society, simply because you alway feel sorry for the people who you politically want to support (the minority in the Democracy), and cannot muster any emotion or concern for the people you politically refuse to support (the majority in the Democracy).
This debate will never end as long as you refuse to support the law. Supporting the law means supporting only “legal” immigration and supporting control of the population growth rate consistant with the economic needs and social stability needs of the nation and the Majority of the Democracy.
If this were a young man that was “legal” it would not change my sorrow for his decision to take his life.
I pity the people affected by his “illegal” decisions as much as I pity the people affected by his “illegal” decision to take his own life. A decision I would not recommend that anyone choose.
I think all of you (pro-illegals) should re-examine your ethics, and understand what your actions are doing to destroy our democracy and our nation. You will be held accountable to the law for your actions regarding this someday.
Helloooo Medic! Glad to see you joined the debate over here. Step lightly there are snakes in the grass .
I do not always agree with medic, but very good points are often made.
Just a side note, a point of interest if anyone out there is a guitar player. This is how Roy Buchanan died. He was picked up in Herndon for public intoxication. It was 20 years ago this month. He was later found hanging in his cell in the Fairfax County jail.
Michael,
Are you suggesting I am a terrorist sympathizer, or that I use tactics akin to a terrorist? That is simply too bizarre to address. I am not “pro-illegal”, that is a word used by people who believe there is a simple answer to this issue of immigration. No one is pro-illegal Michael, I am simply pro-reasonable,responsible, and humane solution oriented. You choose to ignore the very cogent arguments and facts that others put before you, instead, you cling desperately to your belief system. I believe the immigration system is broken and has been broken for some time. This boy killed himself because he saw no hope in front of him. It all liklihood this belief was based on the fact that he was here “illegally” and he, like thousands upon thousands of other young people, have to live in the shadows, all the while working hard and striving to be productive young people in a system unable/unwilling to incorporate their very presence.
PWC has tried it your way, WASTING millions upon millions of tax payer dollars on a resolution that has served only to divide us. While the senior day care center is closed, at risk group homes threatened, and now possibly, the rainbow riding program, people like you sit happy, not a care for the “legal” citizens your misguided resolution has left in its disasterous wake.
“Yes. Social progress will never occur there if they keep being rewarded with remittances for sending their poor here.”
Something more ominous is the fact that parents are sending their kids over here and contributing money to coyotes to fascilitate it. I don’t buy that it’s for a better life. I think it’s more for that $150/week they got. Sad to say, but this poor kid appears to have been nothing more then a paycheck to his parents in Guatemala as indicated in their lawsuit:
“claim mental anguish and lost support of well over $75,000 exclusive of costs and interest against the defendent.”
I don’t buy the mental anguish crap. You can’t have much mental anguish for your 13 year old child if you pack him up and pay a coyote $3,500 to ship him illegaly to another country.
This quote from him:
“He said, ‘Tell them I love them, and I’ve always tried to be a good son. I can’t take it anymore.’ ”
Tells me his parents were the biggest contributor to his suicidal mental state.
Elena said:
“This boy killed himself because he saw no hope in front of him.”
Bah. This boy killed himself because he was nothing more then a paycheck to his parents. EVEN IN DEATH. Read the laswuit and think about his choice of words in his last call.
“Just a side note, a point of interest if anyone out there is a guitar player. This is how Roy Buchanan died. He was picked up in Herndon for public intoxication. It was 20 years ago this month. He was later found hanging in his cell in the Fairfax County jail.”
I thought Roy was picked up in Reston? INHO Greatest Guitarist who ever lived.
And what the heck happened to the board? we’ve returned to the dark colors!
Black is beautiful. I did have an identity crisis when I first arrived and thought I had typed the wrong address.
Thanks Michael, I have already been “bitten” by the snakes in the grass
Elena,
It isn’t clinging to self belief, but following the law. The system isn’t broken, the laws are not being enforced. No one should be able to come to this country ILLEGALLY and expect the same treatment as those who followed the path to citizenship. The nation is too PC to say what it really is, ILLEGAL aliens coming to America for the American dream that they do not deserve. In response to your PWC remark, ILLEGAL aliens didn’t appear overnight and it si going to take longer than overnight to solve the issue. As I have stated before, give the resolution 5 years to have a FAIR chance to work, if at that time, nothing has changed and the ILLEGAL aliens have not left PWC or the schools are no longer crowded, then I will be the first in line to say it hasn’t worked. Think of this as planting corn, you plant it and it takes time for it to mature before you can pick and eat it. We just put the seeds in the ground when it comes to the resolution. They are starting to poke through the ground, but it is going to be a while before we see the tassels and the ears of corn. Things take time and this is one of them.
Without consequences for the employers who hire these people, this will continue. Once employers are held accountable, ILLEGAL aliens will cease to cross the border because they know they do not have any enablers left.
I am for humane immigration as well, but that doesn’t include absorbing the 20+ million people into the US population. There has to be a deportation process and then re-entry LEGALLY.
This is another case like the one in Orange County where the sheriff’s department settled a case out of court with ILLEGAL aliens because the SD was doing their job by running off the ILLEGAL aliens. The SD is responsible for enabling the law breakers and have let down the citizens of Orange County by settling this case. Again, the PC police have caused more to enable the ILLEGALS!!
Rod Anti has passed over to the “DARK SIDE”
The resistance was futile.
“Black is beautiful.”
I agree. Easier on the eyes.
A post I made on the other side:
Is this a bad thing? Only if the employers are not charged as well.
It is careless to assume that this was a suicide as opposed to a possible homicide. I hope an independent investigator examines the evidence in order to preserve impartiality.
If you remember, about a month ago, Ronnie White was strangled in his cell. Nobody other than PG County police officers could have possibly committed the act. The impunity of the act is deeply troubling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GHve7o3XIA
If our elected officials can lie through their teeth about WMD’s in iraq and throw away the lives of 5,ooo+ servicemen, 100,000+ iraqis without any consequences. Who is going to care about one dead immigrant?
Medic
“ILLEGAL aliens coming to America for the American dream that they do not deserve”
What do you think of all the illegal aliens who came her from Europe in the 20s’? People think it was a minority but it wasn’t. There were some years in which illegal aliens were about half the total of the new immigrants to this country.
Who deserves the American dream?
For many years all these immigrants (both legal and illegal) were not considered real Americans because to be part of the American Dream. Read the Lost Battalions which chronicles the stories of new immigrants fighting in WWI. They were told that to be part of these country they had to sacrifice lives, salaries, culture, etc, but after the war they were still treated as foreigners.
Greetings Sr. Medic, I am a snake but I haven’t bitten you yet. Might not. Are you tasty? I have been looking for fang marks on you but see none. I get first strike.
One area where reform is needed is how many people we let in and how long it takes. Our needs as a work force are different than they were 20-25 years ago. If our laws didn’t need reform then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
I’m busy with kids Medic and Mando. I promise to respond later tonight.
Mando, you bring up an interesting view point, I will address it later.
There are a lot of different angles in this story with blame to share, however, anytime a young person dies its a loss.
I assume the 17 year old was in solitary because first, he was a juvenile and cannot be mixed with adults and second, if they had knowledge he was suicidal, such individuals are placed by themselves.
I do wonder why the parents sent the younger son at age 13 to the States. Who allows a child at such age to do this alone? Where was the older son then I wonder?
Like others, I too, want to see CEO’s held accountable for hiring illegal aliens. They are easier to target and still reach the same goal of not attracting illegal immigration.
While everyone should be treated in a fair and humane manner, to blame the system in total for this young man’s death definitely overlooks some aspect of personal as well as parental responsibility.
Clinical depression is a mental illness. Situational depression or adjustment disorder has to do with mental health, but would not be perceived by most to be a true mental illness. Agreed, though, any kind of depression requires help.
The main difference TH is that they were not expecting a handout. The ILLEGAL aliens today get welfare handouts if they happen to pop out a baby. The 14th was NOT designed to give the ILLEGAL aliens children automatic citizenship. That is not what the framers used it for when they approved it.
Immigration in the 20’s can not be compared to what it is today because there are MANY different circumstances in place today that were not in place then. Many welfare benefits that are paid by taxpayers were not in play at that time.
Yes, many were still treated as second class citizens, but those who came here as ILLEGAL aliens in the 20’s did ASSIMILATE to the new country. Those coming here today do not.
Jake I have them on my ass from TH and Elena
I made a post on another blog and have been lambasted for making a tongue in cheek remark that was sarcastic. No need to continue to rehash it here on this thread since it is not pertinent to this discussion.
Lucky Duck,
I agree, where was the parental responsibility? They should not have let their son come here ILLEGALLY. The dream is to big to be passed up. Employers need to be prosecuted for the enabling they do.
/\/\3|)iç 64
You are misinformed about welfare benefits!!!
The framers of the constitution did not design it to give children born in the US automatic citizenship????? They were illegal immigrants if I recall. Their children were all citizens. This land belonged to the Native Americans and it was taken by your ancestors. They were all ILLEGAL!!! Ask any Native American if they do not believe that to be the truth.
Even though some may not agree, being a teenager is not easy. A teen is stuck between being a kid and an adult – sometimes feeling like one or the other, depending on the day. Some teens are thrust into the role of being an adult, a role they are not ready to take on. Teens have new things to deal with socially and academically and new types of pressures. For even the happiest teenager, these years can cause anxiety and confusion. For this young teen things must have been very confusing. When teenagers have additional problems to deal with, life can feel even more frustrating and difficult. Living in the shadows and trying to support a family must have created lots of anxiety and confusion for him. Feeling like a failure can contribute to upset, angry, and depressed feelings for some teenagers. I am sure this young man felt like the ultimate failure which probably led to a mindset of hopelessness.
For teenagers who don’t feel that they have anywhere to turn for help, they may think their lives aren’t worthwhile. If a teenager feels unhappy and helpless and has no one to reach out to, it puts him or her at an increased risk for suicide. If he would have been incarcerated in a JUVENILE FACILITY he may have had supportive people and counselors around who could have helped him deal with the problems. Besides that he would have been supervised.
Let’s remember the reasoning part of the brain in the frontal lobe does not even mature until about the age of 24 yrs old and even longer for some. So teens are not the best at good judgment, making decisions or reasoning.
This, to say the least, is a very sad case. A young life lost. Such a tradgedy.
Soy — I just think the most EXPEDIENT way to address this is by going after the employers. We seem to focus on the outcome not the cause…. I am not endorsing illegal immigration. I am also not saying if some one is here illegally it should not be addressed.
I just don’t think it’s fair to go after ONLY them.
Medic – good to see you guy. Saw some of your posts over there and wondered if you would stop by.
Why is this screen black? I will have to backtrack…. I hit refresh and thougt I’d was in another place….
/\/\3|)iç 64 said on 26 Aug 2008 at 4:38 pm:
“Yes, many were still treated as second class citizens, but those who came here as ILLEGAL aliens in the 20’s did ASSIMILATE to the new country. Those coming here today do not.”
Not exactly a true statement. Of those who came in the 20’s, only a small % assimilated. It was usually the 2nd generation that fully assimilated.
Sr. Medic: Lucky Duck, Elena, and TH will give you a challenging debate but they are never rude. Perhaps there is something I am not seeing, but your ass ….no…I won’t go there. Begging a thousand pardons.
But I am sure you are up for spirited debate or you would not be here. I am pleased you are being careful about the snakes. There are several here. We are a hisssssssing bunch.
Hissssss, hisssss…/\/\3|)iç 64
LOL @ the snakes
OK Marie, I will give you that one, but at least the second generation assimilated or made an attempt to. Today there are no incentives to assimilate because the PC police think it is ok to print everything in Spanish and press one for English.
Jake, I am very passionate about ILLEGAL aliens and the problems that arise from them being here. It is a problem that can not be fully shouldered on the ILLEGAL aliens, but the employers must shoulder the brunt of the responsibility by employing them. Of course, many would look at it as the glass half empty and say if the ILLEGAL aliens were not here, the employers wouldn’t have a labor force to draw from.
WOW we are white again. What a blinding splash to the retinas!!!!
Howdy, M64!!
Those employers need to be held accountable for their hiring of those here illegally. They make our country very attractive for those wanting to work for the almighty dollar. These employers MUST stopping hiring those without the proper paper work. Let’s face those employers are vested in our country, and they are much easier to hold accoutable then those with no and/or false documentation.
Don’t want to be held accountable by the “grammar police”.
Corr: These employers MUST *STOP* hiring those without the proper paper work.
What a lot of the people posting here don’t understand, perhaps because you’ve never been victims of police abuse, is that the police are experts at filling your heads with terrifying thoughts of what is going to happen to you and what they are going to do to you.
And that is how they can mentally torture you when you’re NOT a prisoner but a free citizen with full rights.
Imagine the way they terrorize you if you happen to find yourself stripped of all your rights and completely at their mercy in a prison like what happened to this kid.
God only knows what the prison guards may have sadistically threatened to do to this poor kid in prison.
Maybe they told him that they would classify him as a gang member and then return him to Central American authorities. This is a terrifying thought as there are paramilitary right-wing death squads in Central America that kill known gang members on sight.
He was undocumented so he knew he had no rights. Maybe they told him he was going to stay in prison forever. Maybe they said they would classify him a terrorist and send him to guantanamo bay. They could have told him anything and under the circumstances, a 17 year old boy would believe it.
Think about it.
He had a lot going for him. Do you really think he would commit suicide just for being deported? Most immigrants don’t worry about being deported unless they have family here. They know that they can just come back. This kid was probably told that some horrific fate awaited him. They convinced him of it.
So he made his peace and won his freedom the only way he knew how.
No Elana, I’m not suggesting you are a terrorist sympathizer. Simply that the tactic of martyrdom is a very common tactic in the propoganda world of the socialist and the terrorist. They have to capture the hearts and minds of the “gullible” population in order to rise in political power and achieve their political objective. Your political objective is what you stated. I simply disagree it is the right political objective for the Majority benefit of this Democracy, and only benefits the Minority in this Democracy. I am suggesting, for all of your noble self-interst compassion, you are on the wrong side of taking care of the MAJORITY in this DEMOCRACY, and as a result of furthering sympathy for “illegals” and possiblly as an indirect result of your efforts to help them, you are contributing in a negative way to the welfare and wealth of our ENTIRE society, not just the little segment you feel sorry for.
That is the flaw in your concept of Justice and Sympathy.
What you are doing in supporting “illegal” sympathy can even be held accountable under the law at a later date, should someone wish to press legal charges in the same way “militant and subversive” groups that undermine the national security of our nation can be persecuted under the law. The comments you and others post and the evidence gathered using the recorded and preserved files and internet traffic on this site at the FBI, CIA, DIA and DHS based on the subversive elements and facts that transpire on this site can be used in a later “anti-illegal” damage and subversion lawsuit, brought by the majority of the society against the minority of society that hurts it.
Mackie yo make way too many assumptions about his conditions. I’ll bet the police were simply following the law which is what they are supposed to do. What people do to themselves is beyond their control. Have you ever watched the violence and resistance, and arrogance of people who are going to jail? Do you blame that behavior on the police too?
People are only accountable for what they do under the law, as I tried to explain to Elena. She and I are only accountable under the law. I prefer to make sure I am on the side of the LAW and not supporting people who are breaking it. Breaking the law hurts the majority of the population in a Democracy, and NO minority has a right to break the law simply because they want to, or they feel sorry for just a small segment of the population that is hurting the majority segment of the population. Every member of the “majority” (not an ethnic majority in a Democracy) is entitled to compensation for those injustices under a court of law.
Wow!
Sad story. I see empathy and all kinds of arguments of who is to blame. A life was lost. I see all kinds of reasons for why it came down to a possible suicide OR a snuff.
I most sympathize with Marie’s post at 4:54 PM and as ALWAYS Big Mack threw out the head twitch question @3:50.
I have a question that has not been covered in this thread. When talking about going after the employers ( and employees) how do we know that the employer is not operating under a different law/loophole due to outsourcing? EXAMPLE: Budweiser sold out, ( the end of America , lol jk) So now a foreign company OWNS them but are operating in the states,is there a loophole that they can hire illegals within the USA (dumb question as it maybe, I don’t know, so I ask;) )
Holy CACA! You miss coming here for like an hour and all of a sudden, you are thrown into a brand new, dazzling blog! I love it! Good work!
KG,
It’s a conspiracy!
LOL, to keep you coming back or loose your way….just kidding
I think some of you know I like my conspiracy theories
Michael,
How is this kid, feeling so helpless, helpless enough to take his own life, even remotely similar to martrydom?
It is so easy to judge people isn’t it Michael. My grandfather, as a baby, emmigrated from Russia, when the whole family arrived, my aunt sara, who was maybe 4 at the time was very ill. So terrified of being split up, my great grandfather begged a fellow passenger to hide her in his suitcase. So, I guess I am decendent of not only an illegal immigrant, but illegal immigrant aiders and abbetters.
Mando,
You bring up a perspective I had not really thought about. I guess, you are right on some level, where were the parents of this young man/child. But what are your choices when faced with such overwhelming poverty. On one hand the mom who leaves her child behind, like in the case of the boyscout in Loudon, are villifed for “abandoning” her children, then in this case, the parents are villified for staying behind while he works and strives for a better life.
Every night I sing my kids their goodnight songs, I snuggle with them, kiss them goodnight, and know that I have such a lucky life to be in this country. How can I not wonder what I would do for my family if my circumstances were different. If the future that faced my children held virtually no hope.
Michael,
You cling to the law like a drowning man.
The founding fathers never meant us to be idol worshipers of the law. They wanted us to test the law against our notions of justice. They wanted us to apply this test on a case by case basis…and if the law was found to be unjust, they wanted us to nullify the law…but only on a case by case basis.
This is our right. And more than that, it is a duty.
However, it is a right and duty that has atrophied because of our neglect.
It is a right and duty more powerful than voting. Do you know the name of this right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVZFlBJftgg
Elena, I think Mando’s theory is probably more correct than yours. Suicide does not happen overnight, People have generally experienced “months or years” of pain in their lives, before suicide is the last straw.
Here is what I think and the more I personalize it the more tragic I feel and the more sympathy I feel for this young “man” (not child).
I think economic pressure from his parents (at 13 to work!), drove this young “child” at 13 to make a hazardous journey, to compensate what his father and mother were unable or unwilling to do, provide for a family that probably included more KIDS, than they could possibly feed (the poor do that irresponsible thing better than anybody).
Imagine the pressure on a 13 year old to WORK and SEND MONEY HOME, TO BE GONE FROM PARENTS WHO LOVE MONEY MORE THAN THEY LOVE YOU. THIS IS MY ANGER AT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, IT PUTS PEOPLE INTO POVERTY AND MISERY, and CHILDREN INTO FINANCIAL SLAVERY.
I WOULD NEVER HAVE LET MY SON DO THAT! I would rather be a farmer and dirt poor than divide my family, or live in a country that I had to ILLEGALLY enter or send my kids to illegally enter. My ethics and sense of law are greater than any parent who would knowlingly subject their 13 year old child to that.
In the 1900s and today around the world many fathers and mothers (with more nad many of them ended up in squalor in WORKHOUSES. Illegal immigration is not much better than these WORKHOUSES (Read Oliver Twist). I’m am opposed to “ilegal” immigration for every moral reason I can think of. I am not opposed to “legal” immigration, it is much more HUMANE and controllable interms of damage to all concerned.
Allowing “illegals” to have a means to exist in this country only creates the MISERY of financial slavery to this family that this young man probably felt and WAS OVERWHELMING. I’ll bet it was the YEARS of expectation that he should work in such isolation and misery, driven BY GUILT, BY GUILT likely laid on him by his FATHER and MOTHER, who cared so LITTLE ABOUT HIM, that pushed him over the edge. That PAIN CAME LONG BEFORE THE POLICE ARRESTED HIM.
So I don’t support “illegals” or your view that we should sympathize with “illegals”, because we are simply creating and sustaining more misery than we can create wealth, and WE can’t bring every miserable person into the US just because they are poor in thier own country. There are BILLIONS of people just like that young man. Are you justified in destroying us (the majority of people in our Democracy), just because you feel we can or should let 5.0 Billion people in without papers and “legalize” all of them with a simple change in status?
This is why I believe your “efforts” and sympathy is misguided and actually doing far more harm than good to people just like this young man, because it encourages and enables so many “new” young 13 year old “men” to follow him and experience the same misery and potential death.
By supporting the conditions for his misery to exist you are esentially killing him with your misguided kindness. This the the same flaw in those Child Workhouses of the 1800s and 1900s, before LAW banished it, and the same will happen when the LAW banishes “illegal” immigration forever!
Mackie, you “flee” the law like a criminal afraid of getting caught. Which of us will win?
My “justice” is as I just explained Mackie. The LAW has been made by the Majority in this Democracy for that very real reason of “justice”.
Mackie,
RE: your post @ 18:51,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTDhgR3p12w
Michael, I think you are assuming a great deal also. Unless we have been in that situation, I don’t believe we can evaluate it in your terms and your sense of ethics. Additionally, do you believe the people who aren’t Americans feel the same sense of outrage over breaking our laws? I sure wouldn’t feel a sense of moral outrage over breaking another country’s laws.
My grandparents immigrated too, so what? That was then, they dealt with their problems then. This is now, we are dealing with our problems now. Our solution is the solution of the Majority of the people in this Democracy, whether you like it or not, indignant or not, sympathetic to lawlessness or not. Your use of this young man’s death as a political tool for “illegal” sympathy, shows the flaw in your reasoning that you are doing more good than harm. I disagree.
Moonhowler, because they have no such sense of moral outrage and are hurting our Majority (as are many of you), that is why I seek the law and the political will to punish them for what they are doing to the rest of us.
That is why I draw the line between “legal” and “illegal” and not between the good or bad of “ethnic group” behaviors. The problem is simply with “illegal”. That is the moral justice and injustice, the morality of elected and voted LAW. (mackie does not get this because he hates the LAW of the MAJORITY).
Not one of you get this, even “impoverished people” that stay intact as families can be happy. Were paleo Indians happy?, Were Incas, or Mayans, or Aztecs happy?, Were families who farmed and lived off the land happy? Did ANY one of them have more than the family of this young man has? You assume that ALL poor people, because they have no money are UNHAPPY. That’s you MORAL mistake. ONLY those who are decadent enough to value money, glamor, fame and property over family happiness are not happy, even though poor. It is how you as a family leader (Father or Mother) TREAT your family that determines happiness, and wealth.
I do hope some of you GET THAT. If I was born poor, I would create happiness for may family no matter what I had, and I don’t think you could stop me unless you made me a SLAVE or a SERF. DEMOCRACY is what prevents THAT.
Micheal,
Like I said earlier today, anyone that attempts and/or commits suicide clearly has mental issues. This “young man” had been here for 4 years illegally, and would think he’d lived in constant fear of being identified as being in our country illegally. The responsiblity that had been thrust upon him to provide for himself and his family while going to school and working must have been enormous. Hell, a lot of law abiding adults crack under such pressure.
I think it’s fitting to realize that in many other countries they allow their children to drink at younger age and have a much younger age of consent. Given that fact, I think it’s only natural that these children forced to grow up much quicker than kids here. Therefore, I think they would be far more inclined to send the children out in to the “cruel world” at younger age.
I think one thing that gets overlooked often in the immigration debate is that illegal aliens are exploited by those that hire them, those cyotes that take there money to get them accross the border(often hold them up in horrible conditions), and their parents that have sent them on such a journey to the US. It must clear to those want to come our country the legal way is the ONLY way to truly be able to live the “American Dream”.
“It is the fist responsibility of every citizen to question authority.”
Benjamin Franklin
Red Dawn,
That’s such an incredible movie!
Hi Chris, I think you make an excellent point when you said “it must be clear to those who want to come to our country the legal way is the ONLY way to truly be able to live the “American Dream”.
There are two sides to illegal immigration – those who come here illegally and those who employ them. It must be made clear that those who come illegally have no legal right to be here, it is not their nation and we are not under any obligation to permit them to enter.
It also must be made painfully clear to those who entice and employ illegal immigrants that they too are responsible for today’s problems and they too, must share the consequences of what they have participated in. They also must be shown – via the big stick if necessary – that legal entry into this Country (either by work visa or legal immigration) is the only way to operate.
Both sides are guilty for their parts in this immigration mess. It creates the desire of a family to send a 13 year old boy to another country illegally on his own and it creates the opportunity for someone to hire and exploit him, making him so dependent on his job that he kills himself because he sees it ending.
Much hubbub has been made about the fact that he was 13 when he came here. What most don’t seem to understand is that in many of these Latin American countries, the kids are on their own starting at about 12. It is a whole different world for kids living in poverty. My husband and his brothers no longer lived at home with their parents when they were 12. They went to school through 6th grade and then they either moved in with a sibling or grandparent in a city and worked various jobs such as making shoes (give a shout out to the 11 year old Guatemalan that put your $12 shoes together next time you are at Payless!), whacking sugar cane (my husband has a 5 inch scar on his hand where he almost lost a thumb while doing that at 12) or doing other kinds of farm labor. They had to start contributing to the family or to supporting themselves by then. As I’ve said before on this blog, brothers coming here prevented their youngest siblings from having to quit school and now they are either working a decent job (certainly not by our standards as far as pay wise, but enough to pay the bills) or working and attending college.
I think it is pretty silly to sit in judgement of these parents, kids and families if you haven’t walked a mile in their shoes. And I love the people that say they would never cross our border illegally simply because they have a higher “moral” standard than that. Until you have lived without adequate food or shelter I don’t think anyone is in a position to say what they would or wouldn’t do. None of us know what we are capable of until we are pushed to the breaking point.
TWINDAD,
I AM GIVING YOU THE STANDING OVATION!!!!!
I have so much to say, as you struck a cord in me tonight….damn it, I will hold back, I will hold back….LOL! Damn it, damn it……..
Michael or ANYONE,
Maybe my question is worthy???
First my question and a later comment that supports( voluntary or non) my question:
“I have a question that has not been covered in this thread. When talking about going after the employers ( and employees) how do we know that the employer is not operating under a different law/loophole due to outsourcing? EXAMPLE: Budweiser sold out, ( the end of America , lol jk) So now a foreign company OWNS them but are operating in the states,is there a loophole that they can hire illegals within the USA (dumb question as it maybe, I don’t know, so I ask;) )”
“Moon-howler, 26. August 2008, 19:12
Michael, I think you are assuming a great deal also. Unless we have been in that situation, I don’t believe we can evaluate it in your terms and your sense of ethics. Additionally, do you believe the people who aren’t Americans feel the same sense of outrage over breaking our laws? I sure wouldn’t feel a sense of moral outrage over breaking another country’s laws.”
I got to excited and want to make it CLEAR, that the above comment by Moon-howler was probably on a whole different level and topic. I just see similarities.
I guess this is just another point in how a conversation can turn in BLOGS
Twin,
Thanks for sharing your personal story here. I’ve heard many similar stories by the folks I used to work with from Central Amercia, and by the same token I know some poor whites and blacks right here in the good ole USA that were sent out to work at very young age in the fields on working on the farm. You reiterated my point of young ones doing this in their country of origin. He might have a much easier job here. However, he was living as a youngster would in his country, in our country. He was not living a life that we would want our teens to do in this country.
Twinad, I concede to you the knowledge of the cultures in which this boy grew up in. But, you must admit, being 13 years old in Central America and working there must be different than being 13 years old and living without family and working in the United States.
I still believe that it was irresponsibile of the parents to send a 13 year old to a Country illegally (which placed him in an even more percarious position) that is thousands of miles away. If they want to send him someplace else in Guatemala to work, that’s different, but to send him where you lose complete parental guidance or contact is, in my opinion, reckless.
Michael,
Just saw your post from earlier about being poor and happy. I think many studies have actually shown that the more money one has, the less likely they are to be happy. That is beside the point, though. I visited my husband’s family alone with my son a few months after he was born since there was no way for him to go and come back and he so much wanted his family to know me and meet his son.
I have to tell you I was ashamed of myself when I sat back and watched his family enjoying a meal together. I looked around at where I was, surrounded by small grass huts with dirt floors, plastic chairs, chickens running by and I couldn’t believe the happiness and sheer joy that was in front of me. I tell you, it really made me open my eyes to what it means to love and to be happy. If someone had told me that people that live in the kind of poverty they live in and still be happy, I would never have believed it unless I had seen it with my own two eyes. Now, don’t get me wrong, just because they can be happy, doesn’t mean they aren’t suffering. My husband wanted more from his life than working in a shoe factory for less than $1/day. And he knew he was capable of it, but not if he stayed there. I am proud of him and I don’t care that he broke our broken immigration law. He is a wonderful man and I don’t know where I would be without him. My son is my greatest joy…he is smart, funny, has his Dad’s curly hair and is just such a great kid. I will never think my husband made a mistake in doing what he did, even if we all move to Central America together because he can’t stay here anymore. Hell, my current retirement money will be well spent in Guatemala! Will last about 50x as long and the good ole USA won’t get any of it if it comes to that.
Lucky Duck,
I do see your pov, but in all honesty, I saw the neighborhood my husband lived in when he was 12! It scared the living daylights out of me! There is NO neighborhood in Manassas (or now that I think about it anywhere that I’ve ever been in the US!) that is even anywhere near close to being as dangerous/rundown/seedy/ downright SCARY as the place I saw where he lived away from his parents. You may think just because they are only living an hour or two from their parents that it’s not as bad, but really, in all honestly, seeing what I saw, I’d send my kid here…1,000 miles away…rather than see him there. There are armed guards outside of the Walmart type stores. My brother in law that sells fruits and vegetables to market vendors was held up at gunpoint with his wife on his weekly trip to Guatemala from El Salvador. It’s absolutely safer to be just about anywhere here than there. Just MHO.
TWINDAD,
It is clear to me that YOUR life has been BLESSED ( in SOOOO many ways) because you know the difference.
to all,
Know this, I have spent weeks taking applications for a school program. Those who could not produce documents required by the school are not the foreign born for the most part. Those who lack birth certificates for their children are US born parents with US born children and the parent “lost” the birth cert somewhere in the past 4 yrs of their child’s life. They may receive TANF, Medicaid, or even Section 8. Yet they still cannot produce a current lease, current address or, birth cert for their child etc., their license might even be years old. They are the last minute applicants. Likewise, foreign parents come to intake with passports, ITIN numbers, current leases, photo IDS, tax returns, physicals, a VA license, Famis information, and some WIC information when applicable. When it comes to paper work most immigrant parents(not all), have it going on.
Chris,
Absolutely agree that no, he was definitely NOT living the life I dream of for my son either or anyone dreams of for their child. It really is a sad story.
TWINDAD,
There are armed guards outside of the Walmart type stores. My brother in law that sells fruits and vegetables to market vendors was held up at gunpoint with his wife on his weekly trip to Guatemala from El Salvador. It’s absolutely safer to be just about anywhere here than there. Just MHO.
What are your thoughts or of your husband to what we in the US are facing now?
There is always a beginning, a market for everything. ( always MONEY to be made)
Thanks, Redawn, I do feel blessed! My “illegal” husband is the best thing that ever happened to me, and I know he feels the same about me! Life doesn’t get better than that!
I had written this statement before I read Twinad’s contribution about how some people live in Central American countries. My words suddenly seem very inadequate, but I am going to post anyway.
Michael, up to a point, you are correct about happiness. But…and this is a big butt, people who do not have enough to eat are not happy. People who live in paper houses and shacks are not happy. When food, shelter and clothing become primary concerns, the lack of these necessities has a tremendous impact on quality of life.
Again, if some of us are assuming, so are you. We need to distinguish between a lean life and not having the essentials. Needed. We have no way of knowing if the Mayans were happy. We assume they were because they were rather culturally advanced for their time. But that is just an assumption.
I truly do not believe our discussion is really about greed and thing that material wealth provides.
Red Dawn,
I’m sorry if I’m having a “brain fart”, but I don’t understand the question! I think I’m about done for the night, but if I get what you are asking, I’ll come back to it. Thanks.
Red Dawn,
I think you mentioned that you used to work in a courthouse. Did they ever talk about the top secret right we have that’s more powerful than voting?
http://www.fija.org/docs/true_or_false_new.pdf
This is from the article on the 17-year old “suicide”:
I wonder what the “peace officers” said to this kid after the “peace officers” beat him black and blue? What thoughts was he left alone with in solitary confinement? Promises of more beatings to come…
Admin,
Could you please change the title of this post to:
Somehow I think the “severe beating” contributed more to the suicide than the arrest.
Twinad,
Thank you so much for sharing your very personal experiences with us. Your contribution really changes the tone of the discussion and hopefully allows people a moment of human connection.
Since there is no thread about Hillary’s speech, may I offer an observation:
McCain needs to choose a woman for VP. I don’t care which woman. As long as she is a genuine woman, which means Mitt Romney in a dress would not suffice.
Elena,
Thank you for the kind words. You know what else I thought about when I was there? I thought about how different their lives were at the time I visited than when my husband still lived there. Yes, they were all gathered around the table just having a wonderful time and I realized all the things they had that they hadn’t had when their kids left home at 12 and then later when they left to go to the US. Here I was, thinking about what it would be like to live in those surroundings all the time and how difficult it would be. But when I was there, they at least had finally gotten electricity. That came about a year before I visited in 2001. One of his sisters that lives nearby had an actual flushing toilet (thank God!)…don’t know how I would have survived without that! And of course, they had enough food because my husband and his brother send plenty home, but their mother still lives and buys food the same way she always has. She comes to visit and one night I came home from work and she had made rice, black beans and tortillas for dinner. That’s it! This was a few years ago before food prices began to rise, but I literally did sit there and think “Damn, she just made dinner for 6 for like $1! They don’t need to worry that they won’t have anything to eat anymore because she has it all socked away, but they definitely do not eat meat every day or probably more than 2 or 3 times a week at the very most…and not Outback steakhouse portions for sure!
WHWN,
Hillary’s speech was great! For all the whining about how neither option is a good candidate for president, I personally think we hit the mother lode this cycle. I am supporting Obama, but had he not run, I absolutely would have supported Clinton. I think it is a shame that we had to choose between the two. And as for McCain, as far as I could see, he was head and shoulders above any other Republican candidate that ran. At least America’s Republican’s got it right!
TWINAD: I agree, Hillary was AAAWWWWWW-SAAAAAAM tonight! “Were you in it just for me” was the best line, as opposed to being in it for your country.
WHWN, I am no fan of McCain but I did like him 8 years ago before the switch from “Maverick” to “Sidekick” (this was the best line of the Montana Governor guy). I notice you seem to hate Romney, and I can guess why. But keep an open mind because I think he may be your guy. Think about it.
If Mitt Romney was willing to go from pro-gay rights TO against them, from pro-choice TO anti-abortion, from pro-affirmative action to anti-immigrant….
(check this out)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IJUkYUbvI
….maybe he WOULD put on that dress you don’t want to see.
Maybe it would be better to be careful about placing hope in Obama. I don’t have any hope in Obama. However, I do have hope in his followers. He is making a lot of lofty promises and he will break them all…starting with his promise to pull out of Iraq.
My hope is that when Obama starts to break his promises…his disillusioned followers will eventually rise up, march on Washington, and create national chaos like we saw during the Vietnam war. I think this will be the only way we will leave Iraq.
My hope is that the hope so many feel today…will be united into red-hot anger tomorrow…and will lead to some kind of real change.
But I don’t think there is much chance of this happening. Democrats can be just as hypocritical as Republicans. Bill Clinton murdered 500,000 Iraqi men, women, and children and, to this day, democrats actually defend him with a straight face.
McCain, on the other hand, is crazy. Here comes world war 3.
Time to buy a nice plot of land in South America. Working remotely on a 100acre plot in South America while the USA collapses under the weight of empire, sounds like a plan.
We’re still experiencing the cultural/political inertia of 60 years of unrestrained empire. There is a massive cultural/political realignment coming for us. We must relearn our place in the world. Hopefully it will come gradually over many years with good steps like the mortgage collapse. Or Al-Queda might force it to come all at once when they simultaneously detonate multiple nuclear weapons in american cities.
Michael,
Are you threatening people on this blog with legal action ?
Michael, 26. August 2008, 18:22
“What you are doing in supporting “illegal” sympathy can even be held accountable under the law at a later date, should someone wish to press legal charges in the same way “militant and subversive” groups that undermine the national security of our nation can be persecuted under the law. The comments you and others post and the evidence gathered using the recorded and preserved files and internet traffic on this site at the FBI, CIA, DIA and DHS based on the subversive elements and facts that transpire on this site can be used in a later “anti-illegal” damage and subversion lawsuit, brought by the majority of the society against the minority of society that hurts it.”
Elena, are you frickin kidding me? Michael said that? Michael threw that ridiculous infirm, insane, and inebriated idea up on this blog? It can’t be true. I don”t have much respect for his ideas on “democracy,” but never thought him capable of approaching Greg Letiecq territory with such delusions of Thought Police grandeur.
This is a joke, right? Right???
Yes, that was precisely the intent of my satire about Romney. Personally, I feel like it plays better with a hint of subtlety, but yes, I’m quite disgusted by Romney’s insulting attitude toward the electorate, that we’re too dumb and lazy to notice that he changes his positions on core issues depending on who he wants to pander to.
My point, however, was that there is a great opportunity to peel off older women voters who supported Hillary and are resentful toward Obama for stealing the show. But it will take more than a commercial or two to do it. He needs something more substantive, like a Kay Bailey Hutchinson VP pick.
Sorry for being off topic, Elena. Maybe you could do a convention thread?
NGL,
Not a joke, unfortunately. I almost missed it, as I often only do a quick “drive by” when I read his posts. But he has actually posted this type of comment twice. Once on this thread and also on the thread about law enforcement being reluctant to get involved with immigration. Kinda creepy.
Will do tomorrow WHWN, promise
WHWN,
Of course, I HOPE I will be able to do it tomorrow, assuming the DHS hasn’t arrested me for subversive thoughts!
NotGregLetiecq,
Unfortunately, in a democracy, the will of the majority always trumps the rights of the minorities so Michael is technically correct.
Lucky for us though, we used to live in a Constitutional Republic where the rights of minorities were protected by the Constitution. In a democracy, 51% of the people can condemn 49% of the people to death. In a constitutional republic, 99% of the people cannot violate the freedom of speech of the 1% minority.
Elena,
I think Michael is making a valid point though. Our society is changing. We see sign after sign of it. All indicators are pointing towards the continued expansion of a police state.
Michael is only going along with the “official” flow. I think I remember this happening in the 1930s somewhere.
Elena,
Have you seen this impressive lecture by Naomi Wolf? Even she is saying that one day, she will be afraid to speak out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
Michael is appalling in his not-so-veiled threats, but one needs to remember the source. I know this will sound harsh, but so much of his rhetoric is so bizarre and so removed from any historical or political reality that it long ago passed ridiculous. So much of it, not all, not every word. He moves in and out of reality. I’ve noticed that Michael’s favorite phrase has become “You just dont’ get…” or some slight variation of that. Basically, only Michael truly “gets” his arguments because only Michael is living in bizarro Michael-world. Just to take a single example, recall this claim:
“There once was a time (in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s) when people believed in voting on the issues, and were blind to race, gender, religion and ethnic group. Now the liberal mind has returned to racial, and ethnic centric thinking, except the white people are not the ones doing that now because they have forgotten what race, religion and ethnic group they POLITICALLY belong to.”
Nobody paying even the slightest attention to history or politics could ever claim such a thing about those decades. It would be simple to give dozens more examples. I think the fact that Michael is now issuing these strange threats is just part of the same compulsion, the same solipsistic politics that has just turned a bit desperate, or needs more attention, or something. The posts are like political OCD. Sometimes it’s on full strength, sometimes it tapers down.
Finally, Michael appears to believe that people’s political speech here is somehow actionable. Again, only in Michael’s bizarro world, one that even goes beyond Joe McCarthy in its fantasy notions of subversion. Along with being “creepy” as Elena said, it’s also rather goofy!
I missed all the talk today, but I also must have missed Anti’s soothing black screen phrase. I’m sorry about that! Did it really happen?
I also want to thank TWINAD for doing what she’s done so many times: bringing in experiences that instantly act as a “reality check.”
Money doesn’t equal happiness for sure. But think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow’s_hierarchy_of_needs). In order of importance, they go like this:
1. Physiological needs
2. Safety
3. Love and Belonging
4. Esteem
5. Self-Actualization
Without the first two needs met, you can’t enjoy (or in some cases even HAVE) the rest of your needs met. Working for $1.00 a day doesn’t help you provide you/your family with food, clothing and shelter. It doesn’t give you a sense of safety either, especially if there is war and violence in your country. It makes sense, then, that parents might send their teenage, mature son to another country to provide for himself and hopefully, in the long run, be safer. Then perhaps he can attain the rest of the hierarchy.
Think of it this way. If you lived in the inner city in an unsafe neighborhood and couldn’t get a job, do you think you could really enjoy your family? Stress, if nothing else, gets in the way.
Yes, thank you Twin for giving your testimony. Once again, you show us your bravery and insight.
TWINAD
I, too, am giving you a standing ovation. It is so easy of us who have lived cushy lives in the US. None of us, not even the poorest, know what it is like for most of the world. Old Indian saying “Walk a mile in my shoes” would apply here. KUDO’s to you!!!
As always, thank you for shedding a different light especially to those who still walk in the dark.
LMAO!!!!!
Yeah, okay Michael.
My husband is with Dept. of Defense. They have crawled up my buttocks more than you know. If anyone was going to be arrested for speaking up, it would be ME!!!!
I’m sure I’m not the only “government wife” here who has gone through similar checks to make sure we aren’t subversive radicals and spies looking to terrorize the nation with our horrific democratic rights.
What color is the sky in your world, dear?
“KG,
It’s a conspiracy!”
LOL! Red. EVERYTHING is a conspiracy!
Let’s not forget another tragically oppressed group of people who were only seeking a better life for themselves and their families.
They,
Were nonviolent and caused no physical harm to anyone,
Sought only to make a better life for themselves and their families,
Acted in the face of U.S. laws and a system designed to deny them the right to pursue their dreams,
Suffered as their families were torn apart when many of them were sent to prison,
Believed in the American dream of achieving all that you possibly could, and
Saw the death of one their group, partly attributed to the stress caused by their harassment by U.S. authorities,
They are, of course, the former Enron executives.
No difference exists between corporate crooks violating U.S. laws for personal economic gain and illegal aliens doing the same. However, I have no doubt that many on this blog will respond excoriating corporate crooks but praising illegals. Such views are based on the premise that the law applies to some but not to others. If someone is a member of a group you favor (i.e. illegal aliens) they are exempt from obeying laws you personally oppose. If someone is a member of a group you dislike (i.e. corporate crooks) the full force of the U.S. legal and criminal system should fall upon their heads.
This is hypocrisy at its worst. If such views prevail, the U.S. will deteriorate into an anarchical society that serves only the interests of an elite, rather than have a legal system equally applying the law to all. We are, unfortunately, now closer to the former than the latter than we have ever been in the history of our nation.
I would hardly equate multi million dollar exec’s to oppressed people! Try again, save the middle class, with a more coherent analogy!
Hmmmm… Michael gets ganged up on for his alternative views yet the resident crackpot here gets constant free passes even though his asinine police state comments and youtube conspiracy theories pepper EVERY SINGLE THREAD?? What’s up with that?
STMC, Enron execs were hardly the suffering masses or the suffering poor. White collar criminals, in fact, should be held to a higher standard than others. Why? Becuase they have the education, the authority, the money, and the power to ruin people, more people than the average beggar.
We let coporate criminals get away with things that the average street thug couldn’t. I’m not saying being a street thug is a good thing. Nor is being illegaly here a good thing. But there’s a huge difference. Illegal aliens can pay back what they owe in taxes. Enron has no intention of paying back anything to victims.
Mando, why don’t you offer some support for Michael then? I’d be interested in reading it.
Cheers for TWINAD and her family!
There seems to be an assumption on a couple people’s part that the young man who committed suicide was sent here by his family. Often teenagers size up their family’s situation and make the decision to leave on their own. Their parents may not want them to go at all. And I agree with Mackie that a beating ,followed by solitary confinement, may have been the tipping point.
Ha ha. I find Michael’s threats amusing. He admits that his wife was here illegally and that she and her friends were involved with some shady dealings, but I bet he didn’t pack her up in the family car and drive her to the border. He expects others to live to a higher “morality” than he clings to personally. Long-winded obsessive ramblings are probably of more interest to the FBI than the regular chat here. Send the FBI, Michael, my father probably trained some of them when he was an agent at Quantico.
Mando,
I have expressed differences with Mackie as have others. However, Mackie has never threatened to sick the federal government on us!
Mackie,
I have actually watched the video of Naomi, some time ago. She definately gives you evidence that requires one to be especially vigilant in the 21st century. However, I still have faith that there are enough sane voices, speaking loud enough, that will not allow this Republic to sink to a “failed” state. Unlike you, I also have a strong belief that although no one man can be responsible for turning this country around, Obama is our best opportunity.
Rick Bentley stated (on 26. August 2008, 8:15):
Firstly, Rick Bentley, I highly doubt you are presently inclined to feel or express any sense of genuine pity considering the tenor of your comments.
I doubt we are being asked to praise the young man for the means he used, but for the ends he sought per the reasons why he sought them. Extreme circumstances often require extreme measures, as I myself have personally learned in recent months due to what I went through earlier in the year.
Perhaps to Arturo he wasn’t paying a smuggler, but investing in a savior.
Perhaps to Arturo he wasn’t leaving home but was escaping hell, a place already overrun by bandits who he, as a young boy, was powerless to defeat alone.
Perhaps to Arturo mere subsistence and acquiring sustenance would have been sharply impeded by strict abidance to driver-license and insurance law. There was also likely the problem of being able to afford paying for the documentation and insurance required to drive.
There is an old saying: You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. In other words it is a great error for those who pay arduous attention to strict legalistic details (straining the gnat) and completely ignore (swallowing the camel) the higher human causes of mercy and compassion which is what law ultimately must serve. Law is not an end unto itself, which is a point lost on so many who worship the “rule of law” ideology with an almost religious devotion.
While Arturo’s presence here was, by codified definition, “illegal”, his presence here nonetheless meant life, where his presence from whence he escaped could easily have meant death.
And yet he is now dead, and by his own hand. Perhaps for him he reached a final crushing moment in a long series of desperations that seem to have been his constant companions since childhood, and where compassion never seemed to reach him. Perhaps he simply had enough.
And even in his death there are those on this blog who would still prosecute him … no, persecute him … for his “wrongs”, to the utter failure of extending to him even the slightest human decency of that compassion which he seemed to have sought for so long.
Censored,
Great point. I know my husband’s mother was devastated when he decided he was going to come here. Yes, he was 18 and hadn’t lived with her for about 6 years, but at least she got to see him once in a while.
And another thing, if I went to visit now, 7 years after my last visit, boy would things be different! His mom and dad no longer live in the grass hut that got flooded every September during the rainy season. He built a house for his parents and younger brother to live in with 2 (2!) bathrooms with toilets and showers, electricity, tile floors instead of dirt or concrete AND an indoor kitchen! And get this, after the house was done, he had to spend 4 evenings on the phone with her (and get other siblings to call her to try to talk her into it) to convince her to move in! She had to move one mile from where she had lived for 40 years and she felt that was too far away from her daughter and children that lived next door, she felt her friends would no longer talk to her because she had hit “the big time”, she felt that the house needed to remain unoccupied in case my husband ever decided to come and live in it, I could go on, but you get the picture. Anyway, she finally moved in and about a month after they moved in, the hut they had lived in was flooded to the roof top.
Mando my boy,
It’s time we had a talk…Crackpot to Crackpot.
As a brother Crackpot, I had hoped you would have shown some more Crackpot solidarity.
Crackpots of the world UNITE!!!
Elena – the Enron analogy is not to the current economic status of either group, but to the inequitable way the laws are applied. Why should one group be prosecuted and the other given a pass, regardless of their income or wealth, however wide the spread? Since when does anyone have the right to pick and chose the laws they will obey and disobey?
On another matter that has been discussed in this thread, I found very interesting the articles about Hattiesburg. The company took economic development incentive payments (taxpayer money) to create jobs for Americans, which they then gave to cheap (illegal) immigrant workers. After the raid and the removal of the cheap labor, the company is forced to pay a living wage. Americans line up to get those jobs, which were intended for them in the first place.
This incident belies completely the argument that immigrants, legal or otherwise, take the jobs that Americans won’t do. There are no jobs that Americans won’t do. There are only jobs that Americans won’t do for poverty level wages. End the competition from cheap labor (immigration and outsourcing) and the economic status of the American middle/working class can start to improve again.
You cited the unemployment statistics elsewhere on the blog, but those numbers don’t tell the entire story. You are counted as employed in those stats even if you are working part-time or at a wage below what you would earn in the absence of competition from cheap, immigrant labor. Moreover, four million Americans are categorized as “discouraged” workers. That means that they want to work but have given up because they can’t find a job, or a job at a decent wage. Add them to the unemployment stats, adjust for the part-time workers and those working but underpaid, and the unemployment rate does not look so good. All of these numbers are on the Department of Labor’s web site, http://www.dol.gov and you can check them out for yourself.
Only George W. Bush, the Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers and other proponents of expanded immigration of cheap labor say that the employment situation in the U.S. is good for working class people.
Tying the two topics together (unequal application of the law and providing a continuous supply of cheap labor for corporate interests) we see a situation in which American working people can’t win. Of course the Enron crooks should be convicted and sent to prison. Our legal system works in most cases in favor of corporate types, but they went way too far with their corruption to get let off the hook.
Look at Hattiesburg. Enforce the law equally, reduce the supply of cheap immigrant labor, make companies accountable for creating jobs with livable wages and benefits, and we’ll see improvement in the living standards of American working/middle class people!
“Mando,
I have expressed differences with Mackie as have others. However, Mackie has never threatened to sick the federal government on us!”
Where exactly was there a threat to sick the federal govt. on anyone?
There’s another scenario. Companies move overseas.
Robb Pearson
Thank you for your post.
Mando,
See the thread on arresting illegal aliens. I just read it and I have to say that I can see some inconsistencies on what Michael proposes. He wants anti-group society that will bring peace and society. I like that but then he considers that our opinions on illegal immigration (in my case just an analysis of the numbers) will be used against us by the State. as long as you agree with the majority, then you enjoy peace and prosperity. What is next, a cultural revolution? Mao though that he was bringing peace and prosperity. Stalin purged dissenters too.
Could you address those inconsistencies Michael? You have traveled around the world with the military. Could you tell us why the controlled and anti-group philosophies didn’t work in Yugoslavia for example? Was it because the Muslim minorities didn’t accept the peace and prosperity definitions?
You talked about the 60s’ a lot, Do you think that it was OK for Blacks to accept segregation because it affected the majority?
I understand the logic of your statements Michael. It is about our social contract but all of us want to get the same benefits.
Censored – you are absolutely correct. Outsourcing and shipping U.S. jobs overseas is as big a threat to American working and middle-class people as is immigration policy controlled by corporate interests. I’m not an Obama supporter, but I agree with him completely that the U.S. must end tax breaks to corporations that export American jobs. We do not have a “free market” or “free trade.” The system is loaded to the benefit of corporate interests, and driven by K Street lobbyists and the corrupt politicians they buy.
I was disgusted by the recent, two-week “Olympics” propaganda feast designed to put a friendly face on China. We did not see anything about the detention camps set up to imprison anyone who wanted to protest. We did not see Chinese slave-labor factories (although you can see their output at your neighborhood Wal-Mart). We did not hear about the manipulation of the Chinese Yuan (their currency) to keep it low to discourage imports of American goods into China and promote export of their lead-based toys and poisonous foods to us. I could go on and on about China and many of our other “free market trading partners.”
All of these “free trade” policies that encourage the export of American jobs are brought to us by the same friendly folks who want us to have unlimited immigration of cheap foreign labor for the industries (construction, hospitality, etc.) that can’t ship American jobs abroad.
Save the Middle Class, here’s an article (a couple years old) from the WaPo that covers an industry and location with which I’m familiar. It’s interesting – and long – because it covers the issues confronted by one industry and the immigrants it employs.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/16/AR2006071600665_pf.html
Brown-Waite, Sheriff Clash Over Handling Of Rape Cases
http://southshore2.tbo.com/content/2008/aug/26/na-brown-waite-sheriff-clash-over-handling-of-rape/news/
Save the Middle Class,
I concur with your ananlysis of “free” trade, it is all smoke and mirrors to me.
However, you still have not answered my question from another thread.
Why is it that whenever there is a new migration, centered around the increased numbers of one ethnic group, the same arguments arise? Your economic argument today is no different than the argument of a century ago.
Mackie,
Interesting that you seem to interpret Michael’s “Thought Police” threats as just going with the Bush/McCain Police State at Home, War-for-Profit Abroad, Petrol-Elite-Run-The-Country Flow.
Is that a criticism of Micheal, or a criticism of the Bush/McCain Police State at Home, War-for-Profit Abroad, Petrol-Elite-Run-The-Country Flow?
Because, while there’s not much we can do about Michael, you do have a vote as to whether we have another four years of Bush/McCain Police State at Home, War-for-Profit Abroad, Petrol-Elite-Run-The-Country Flow.
Elena, I’m sorry I haven’t commented on yet another tragedy caused by the Anti-immigrant Lobby. It’s not that I’m indifferent to tragedy, but there are tragedies all over the world right now. Somehow, we have to get the United States government on track again, preventing tragedies instead of causing so darn many, at home and a abroad. So I’m consumed with bringing the government back to the people and wrestling it away from the lobbyists (including the Anti-Immigrant Lobby, the War Profiteering Lobby, and of course Big Oil). That means booting out McCain and all traces of the Bush/McCain/Cheney administration.
Robb Pearson, thank you for your panoramic and incisive revelations about the tragic mindset of an anti-immigrant clone. Your post above was truly moving, I’m quoting only part:
Mando,
Since you missed this post by Michael, here the section where he threatens us with the “thought” police” :
Elena, 27. August 2008, 0:28
Michael,
Are you threatening people on this blog with legal action ?
you said : Michael, 26. August 2008, 18:22
“What you are doing in supporting “illegal” sympathy can even be held accountable under the law at a later date, should someone wish to press legal charges in the same way “militant and subversive” groups that undermine the national security of our nation can be persecuted under the law. The comments you and others post and the evidence gathered using the recorded and preserved files and internet traffic on this site at the FBI, CIA, DIA and DHS based on the subversive elements and facts that transpire on this site can be used in a later “anti-illegal” damage and subversion lawsuit, brought by the majority of the society against the minority of society that hurts it.”
Once again Robb, you have reduced “illegal” immigration to its most basic form, a common thread that binds us all, our humanity.
Thank you
Michael, Seriously man, are you saying what I think you are saying? The thought police is going to get us for our words here today? I believe my ancestors fought to make that not happen.
If that were the case, perhaps you should be more worried than most of us should be.
“Outsourcing and shipping U.S. jobs overseas is as big a threat to American working and middle-class people as is immigration policy controlled by corporate interests. I’m not an Obama supporter, but I agree with him completely that the U.S. must end tax breaks to corporations that export American jobs.”
The manufacturing and assembly line jobs of 50 years ago do not translate into a mature economy. Those jobs are for emerging economies like China, Vietnam, Singapore, etc. Remember the old “Made in Japan” hoopla from the 70’s and 80’s? They too used to be an emerging economy. Not anymore. There’s is an economy like ours that now benefit from using emerging economies like they used to be. Keeping those jobs here is a major reason we have so much illegal immigration and a major reason for even greater income disparities. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Why? Because you’re asking our govt. to subsidize these low level jobs that we have outgrown which in turn attracts cheap illegal labor. A vote for Obama is a vote for even more disparity, more illegal immigration, more subsidization, and more Govt. control.
In essence, by asking the govt. not to ship those jobs overseas you’re asking the govt. to import the labor. This falls squarley into the sites of the democrat party. Poor labor require welfare which is provided on the backs of the middle class. You and me. Democrats are masters of wealth redistribution and in order to retain and gain voters, need a healthy supply of individuals addicted to the middle classes’ hard earned money. Obama = some hard times ahead for us average Joes.
“And even in his death there are those on this blog who would still prosecute him … no, persecute him … for his “wrongs”, to the utter failure of extending to him even the slightest human decency of that compassion which he seemed to have sought for so long.”
Empty rhetoric. Problem here is Elena intentionaly mixes these tragic stories with illegal immigration like a chef would mix ingredients for a cake knowing the outcome is going to polarize both sides. Then guys like Robb Pearson latch onto it so they can point fingers and demonize. Mission accomplished Elena.
That’s why these threads are horse $hit.
KG your 9:03 post is on the money. My personal crusade are those that hold others to a standard or moral that they don’t holda themselves to.
Re Michals threats, Greg threatened a poster with legal action once to the great amusement of those watching. Consider the source
“Elena, I’m sorry I haven’t commented on yet another tragedy caused by the Anti-immigrant Lobby.”
Allana/Elena
You want dialogue with both sides like your original intention supposedly was? Omit BS like this and stop with the polarizing. Otherwise you’re just going to degrade farther and farther into another one of those 1 song blogs that only attract the same tune.
Mando,
My intent is to shed light on the human ramifications of immigration. My intent is to demand that people remember illegal immigrants describe a legal status, not a human being. My intent is to stimulate a conversation that involves credible solutions, fiscally sensible ideas, and require us all to remember that OUR ancestors came to this country looking only to improve their lives and the lives of their families.
Robb,
I used the word “praise” in reference to Elena (I think) using it.
“Perhaps to Arturo he wasn’t paying a smuggler, but investing in a savior.” A system that makes saviors of human smugglers, who blackmain many, kill some, and rape many, is a warped system.
“Perhaps to Arturo he wasn’t leaving home but was escaping hell, a place already overrun by bandits who he, as a young boy, was powerless to defeat alone.” Maybe that’s a valid viewpoint. But it doesn’t invalidate my viewpoint. Which is that our predecessors fought and died for unions and wages and a better America, and people like Arturo undercut that and make America worse to live in. And that in too many of the Central and South American nations, the populace is too lazy and stupid to take up that fight. they light candles and pray to virgins instead of fighting for what should be theirs. Then some of them come here and march in OUR streets, the climate being more liberal to them. They are abandoning their country to robber barons. there is wealth in those countries, but it is not dispersed.
Well said, Elena!
Mando,
How is this polarizing? How is this B.S.?
Is the thread about law enforcement unwilling to morph into immigration enforcement polarizing?
I don’t know what I will do in November but Mando makes an important point that Republicans and some Democrats have turned a blind eye to business pretending the trickle down theory is helping the middle class. I rcall trickle down used to be called the elitist theory. That was when we told the truth anyway.
@ Elena
Sorry, but I call BS. You know full well what these threads divulge into. I’ve yet to hear anyone from the “other side” say anything to the contrary of feeling remorse for this kid yet we’re demonized by certain posters here which is in turn applauded by others.
If your goal is to have blog full of parrots, you’re certainly doing a good job.
@ Juturna
It’s either trickle down or trickle up. Choose your poison, but in the end it’s all wealth redistribution. How ’bout we all just keep as much of OUR hard earned money as we can.
Rick,
One one hand you mention that your predecessors (the only immigrants that count) fight for their rights, but you don’t like the the “Illegal” immigrant march to in your streets to get the most basic right: be counted. Different times, different realities. When immigrant in the past were demanding decent wages they were considered “communists”. The problem I have with your revisionist perspective is that everything is changed in the narrative and those fights are embellished in an epic story.
Mando, don’t overlook that many of us had opposing views at the other blog and we were censored or banned. Perhaps that’s why there are more agreeing views here – we’re the ones who expressed an opinion that GL didn’t like.
Mando, if our economy has outgrown all these low level jobs, what do you do with all the low-skilled people who have been doing them? The town I referenced in the article above has a population similar to that of Manassas without all the government/contracting jobs. Aside from the carpet mills, there are small businesses and sales/clerical jobs. What do low-skilled people do for employment? Multiply that small town’s problem by thousands. Many people will head for the cities regardless of the mismatch in their skills with the jobs available. You’ll still subsidize them in one way or another.
Do you think we have wealth redistribution? or does the problem with illegal immigration is that we have to fight for the bones?
When we were getting some benefits from the system, we didn’t care if illegal aliens were around. The global economy has uncovered the fantasy of the middle class that we believed and now it is easier to blame a the outsiders (less than 10 percent of our total population). Again, 10 percent of all the people in the U.S. cannot be bringing our country down. When are the rest of us going to wake up? can you blame illegal aliens for the ghettos we have in our cities? I cannot believe that we will be paying our students here in Dc to motivate them to learn. Can be blamed illegal aliens for the problems that DC school system has? You can get rid of all illegal aliens and still have all these problems that the American Dream ideology is hiding.
And oddly enough, this blog is 10X more active these days….
“Different times, different realities. When immigrant in the past were demanding decent wages they were considered “communists”. The problem I have with your revisionist perspective is that everything is changed in the narrative and those fights are embellished in an epic story.”
The real problem is, times HAVE changed. The immigrants that are good for the US economy NOW are the ones here on student visa, ones with PhD’s, etc. Ship some of those jobs attracting illegal aliens to Latin America instead of China. Let Latin Americans create the Latin American dream. Economies have to start out somewhere. Japan/China should be a model. Start giving Latin Americans some consumer power in their countries and watch a healthy democracy/economy unfold.
Call me stupid TH, but sometimes I really don’t get what you’re trying to allude to.
Yes, we have wealth redistribution. Ding.
The global economy benefits us. Ding.
No, I don’t blame illegal aliens for our economic problems. They are an indicator of a far bigger problem. Ding.
“The problem I have with your revisionist perspective is that everything is changed in the narrative and those fights are embellished in an epic story.”
Goodness … the problem I have with your pollyaniaish perspective is that it contradicts everything Americans fought and died for for decades, and everything we were told by our political leaders. We were told we were building a better country for our children, and for those we collectively chose to let immigrate in – not that our land should be wide open to anyone and everyone, and that the elitists we helped to acheive and hold their power would sell our children out at the drop of a hat. I guess except for me and my parents being lied to our whole lives, I don’t have much of anything to be angry about.
“What do low-skilled people do for employment? Multiply that small town’s problem by thousands. Many people will head for the cities regardless of the mismatch in their skills with the jobs available.”
Education. Service industry. Of course there will always be a need and a supply of jobs for low skilled workers, but when you have them illegaly crossing borders by the millions, I say there is some imbalance.
Poor Rick, you believed the stories and you are not getting you money back… not even SS when you retired
I meant retire
“Mando, don’t overlook that many of us had opposing views at the other blog and we were censored or banned.”
I haven’t. I don’t consider the other blog a panacea either.
Mando according to Michael your latest statement could bring negative consequences to you too.
” TH I’m not threatening anyone. I’m simply pointing out that there are laws on the books that clearly identify as a crime, punishable with a sentence, any ACTION that aids and abets “lawlessness”, whether it be anti-harboring laws, anti-trafficing laws, anti-subversion laws and laws that describe acts of sedition and treason against the “majority” in a Democracy.
The supporters of lawless behavior (like the supporters who participate in internet crime, drivers for bank robbers, employers who hire “illegal” aliens, militants and subversives who take public action to subvert and undermine democractic law, people who aid and assist people inderictly who commit murders, steal, evade taxes, create false identity, promote, support and assist the deliquency of minors or the crimes of adults are all themselves accountable to a whole host of protective laws that prevent the criminalization of the political infrastructure and the political, mental, physical and financial harm to the “Majority” in a Democracy who follow and define the law in a Democracy.”
We are subverting the system now.
“Mando according to Michael your latest statement could bring negative consequences to you too.”
The one major problem I had with Michael’s “threat” was that we don’t live in a democracy.
Lots of theories going back and forth…TH, do we owe those here illegally a living? Do we owe those here illegally a right “to be counted” as you wrote at 14:31 hours? Certainly every person has the right to be treated in a humane manner, even when being involved with the enforcement side of the government such as ICE, but do we owe those here illegally a voice in our Nation’s policies? Why should they get a voice in a Country in which they have no legal standing? That’s the perspective I get from your statement. If I am incorrect on reading what you stated, I apologize, but that’s how I read your statement.
If we believe as has been written here by many (including myself) that the CEO’s are guilty also and should be sanctioned, should we not continue to sanction those here illegally? We are complaining that right now only the illegal aliens are being sanctioned and I agree. But we should be dealing with both parties and both should be sanctioned on an equal basis.
I dont recall you being demonized Mando. In fact, I thought you made an interesting point regarding the responsiblity of the parents in this childs journey.
Lucky Duck,
I totally agree with you. All I was saying was that Rick said that immigrants in the past fought for their rights but the new immigrants were just lazy.
I think that we need to attack the source of the problem. We have jobs and people willing to take them. I don’t know if you noticed that the only employers that were penalized during all these raids were the factory own by Brazilians and the Pollo Rico owners in our area.
The problem that I’ve seen in the carpet industry for example is that the more education a person has, the less likely he/she is to take these low paying jobs. When I was in elementary school, many kids in my classes were three or four years older than I was. They missed a lot of school because their parents had them out in the fields picking cotton or helping with small home industries. The graduation rate at my high school was high however, and those graduates didn’t go into mill work as their parents and older siblings did. There was then a labor shortage. Without the mills, there will be high unemployment in that area. Service jobs generally won’t pay enough to support a family. Therefore, people move away. As a country, we’re exporting even our high tech jobs. But we still have a demand in some fields (literally) for unskilled labor – a demand that our home-grown work force won’t fill, regardless of the wage.
Ok. I don’t think the new immigrants (legal and illegal) are lazy, and history has proven that previous waves were not lazy either.
You’re right, the owners of the eatery in Montgomery County were penalized and I am waiting to see if the managers/CEO’s of the Industrial complex that was raided (I believe in Miss.) on Monday which was the largest raid yet will be held accountable or if they will be allowed to just walk away.
This immigration mess won’t even end no matter who is elected President because the Congress cannot agree on a solution. Bush supported the McCain/Kennedy proposal and so will McCain or Obama. But what makes anyone think they’ll get it through Congress? That’s what this mess will continue on and on.
Elena – my argument is not the same as the one used a century ago. It is based on a vastly changed global economy in which all resources are nearly perfectly mobile, including labor. While the traditional argument based on economic theory posits that this mobility is a good thing, it means that all resource prices, including labor wages, are converging to a global average. That’s fine if your income is derived from investments in companies that benefit from this trend, or you have a well-paid job in a multinational company or other job that benefits from globalization. It’s not so great if you’re stuck in a middle class job with little or no opportunity to change, aside from taking the same wage as people in developing nations.
Even if my argument were the same as people used decades ago, why would someone else’s having used it previously, even if erroneously, negate its validity today? In the 1930s many Americans, including Charles Lindberg, argued that we should be close friends with and cooperate with Germany. They were wrong. Many argue the same today. They are correct. In the first case, Germany was under Hitler’s Nazi rule. In the second case, today, Germany is a democratic nation and a responsible member of the international community. Same argument, different circumstances.
Rejecting my argument today because you equate it with something someone else said decades ago under different circumstances is a very weak position.
You wrote also, “Why is it that whenever there is a new migration, centered around the increased numbers of one ethnic group, the same arguments arise?” You are the person bringing up race and ethnicity; I didn’t. I’m arguing about global trends impacting the American working/middle class in a profoundly negative manner. Immigration is part of the problem but not the entire problem. I haven’t mentioned Latinos once. In the context of this blog I assume that Latinos are the “one ethnic group” to whom you referred. In fact, my most negative comments were directed at the policies of the Chinese government.
Let’s drop references to race and ethnicity, and debate on the basis of facts and reason. Race is the basis of the new McCarthyism. Nowadays, when someone does not have a substantive rebuttal to a sound, logical argument they resort to race as the fall back issue, just like people resorted to accusations of communism in the 1950s.
Mando as long as the rules for earning and keeping (especially the keeping) are the same. I wouldn’t mind a tax rate similar to some of these larger companies.
Lucky Duck, 27. August 2008, 16:12
If we “The People” got off our duffs and started making phone calls and sending letters to Congress maybe they would agree on and inact a comprehensive immigration reform package.
Mando
I just want the same rules about keeping what I earn. My “wealth” is being redistributed at a higher rate than say Sprint.
Non-racists of the Republican party: don’t you think it’s about time you abandon the Anti-immigrant Lobby? The stragglers that still remain faithful to your bankrupt and discredited cause, as evidenced here, only serve to make fools of themselves and what’s left of your party. We’re passing the torch to the next election whether the Anti-immigrant lobby likes it or not. If you want to live to fight another day, jettison these unmasked and unhinged losers before your moderates leave and the rest of the country writes you off for decades.
Lucky Duck, Comprehensive Immigration reform will get through Congress for the same reason McCain beat out all the bigots for the GOP nomination, for the same reason Corey Stewart and Greg Letiecq are now as neutered politically as the Immigration Resolution was neutered legislatively, for the same reason Arizona is now passing laws to BRING immigrants to their state after destroying their economy in the name of prejudice and hatred.
It will happen because the entire country is fed up with the Anti-immigrant Lobby. We don’t believe their lies any more. One paragraph or ten. Their “logic” as evidenced on this blog is no longer credible. We’re not afraid enough, and you can’t make us afraid enough, to believe lies and vote against our own interest.
If the BOCS in PWC had the courage to do the right thing last April, even in the belly of the Anti-immigrant Lobby Beast, don’t you think the United States Congress has woken up to smell the propaganda too? Just like the rest of us, it’s a smell they don’t enjoy.
The Anti-immigrant Lobby has no role in this election, and no role in future federal legislation other than to serve as a good example of ideas that didn’t work, and attitudes that don’t belong in a modern day free country.
Mando, you stated:
Ironic you feel that way considering you choose to continue shoveling here (and shovel quite a lot, I might add).
Rick Bentley, you stated:
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. However, you seem to have misunderstood the direction of my remarks. I utilized the perspective of “savior” as if it was a young boy’s (Arturo’s) innocent perspective, a young boy who, unable to yet understand the deeper implications of the situation he was caught in, may likely have seen the “smuggler” as a guide leading him out of hell and guiding him to a more life-affirming future. Hence the allusion to “savior”.
You saw my “savior” remark through a cold politicized lens. You need to see it from the perspective of a young boy’s frightened eyes. In other words, make an attempt at some empathy. Just some.
And your perspective is absolutely void of validity because you assume the ability to “fight for one’s rights” is monolithic, i.e., that everyone everywhere has the same ability and capacity to simply rise up and secure their natural rights. It isn’t so black and white as you would wish it to be.
In this century and in this moment millions of people survive in accordance with very limited “either-or” choices, which are confined within the boundaries of poverty and the realities of immediacy. Feed my family, or sacrifice my family’s needs to battle an overpowering oppressor? Farm my crops, or leave my fields fallow to march for political change? Risk certain death to confront a deadly enemy, or retreat to live another day? In this regard there is another old saying from the Bible: a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
In other words, it’s about powerlessness. It is a very real spectre that haunts the lives of many. Not everyone can simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I suspect Arturo and his family may have been in such a situation.
This nation’s political legacy of revolution and liberty cannot be the gauge by which the success of a foreign society is measured. The American Colonists in the late 1700’s weren’t fighting for survival against hunger or poverty, they were fighting for political self-determination. And they were not haunted by the spectre of powerlessness. Mexico and Central America in 2008 cannot possibly compare to America in 1776. Hence the reason why a contemporary call to Mexicans and Central Americans to “rise up and grasp your rights” the way our forefathers did is vastly unrealistic.
Well said, Robb!!
I second KG! And I really liked the “shoveling” comment…:)
Bill Clinton was great. Hope you listened Mando. Highest productivity with biggest drop in earnings. Business has been granted an ethical and moral bye.
Juturna, the Big Oil companies and the war profiteering companies like Haliburton and Blackwater wouldn’t be bankrolling the Republican party for nothing. No, no, they get something in return. They get stick their piggy faces in the trough of the American tax base and eat until they are fatter than fat.
That is the Republican philosophy, how can I turn all that productivity you mentioned, the productivity of the American people, into money in my pockets and the pockets of my super-wealthy friends?
Step one: Just do it. Rip off the American people for all we’re worth.
Step two: Re-invest a small portion of the windfall profits from the War in Iraq to pay for advertising campaigns, swift boat campaigns, and Presidential campaigns that distract us with hate, fear, and smear.
Step three: Repeat every four years.
Lucky Duck,
I share your concern, there is such a tenor of hate and fear growing about immigrants, I wonder where it will finally end up. Apparently HSM is promoting a FAIR rally in D.C. I thought HSM was only against illegal immigration? FAIR has made it crystal clear they are against all immigration and believe we need to reduce our population by half.
Save the Middle,
I am not going to pretend to be an economist, or use language that I am not familiar with, but I will speak instead to common sense. This argument you are using has been used MULTIPLE times, not only in this country, but throughout the centuries in many lands. The new faces that look and sound different are the reasons for all “our” troubles. I just simply will not fall for that propoganda or twisted facts. So yes, actually, I do believe that an argument used to instill fear, over and over again, is not a valid argument.
I recognize that we need to have a strong labor market, that we need to make sure that people are self sustainable so that we can survive as a nation, but I don’t see the impending disaster that you would have me believe exists. To deny that a racial undertone does not exist when talking about illegal immigration in this country is disingenous STMC. It is no coincidence that anti “illegal” immigrant blogs, and most comments directed at illegal immigration, speak to the latino component of immigration. I suggest you do a little research, read the comments from an immigrant news story, and you will see what I mean. Here is one of my favorites from a Wash Post story, it was about me, it went something like this:
“she isn’t hispanic, she’s a jew”
Lucky Ducky,
I don’t think the answer is to contribute to the ever expanding categories of human beings we find it acceptable to lock up in cages. I don’t think we should speak of locking up human beings in cages so flippantly. It should be something we find it hard to advocate. We should approach it reluctantly.
We’re already locking up more than a million human beings who are non violent but have broken this or that frivolous drug law.
These people ought to be free. They could be contributing to building our economy instead of being an expense. They could be contributing to our society instead of being wounded by our society with a criminal-record-for-life that they don’t deserve.
We have more than a million innocent people under bondage and forced to do slave labor.
And now you’re saying that we need to lock up even more? Because they used common sense and came here to work without papers. Or because they used common sense and hired the undocumented who were eager to work.
Well, my question is who is going to build the prisons?
The only crimes that are legitimate are those wherein someone’s person or property has been harmed. There is no crime if there is no victim.
Elena, that was a terrible comment directed towards you and I agree that there is a racial overtone in a lot of the commentary that has been presented, particularly on the local level.
Mackie, as usual, there are so many issues to address in your diatribe and you stretch legitmacy to its limits but I no longer consider you as relevant, so “no mas”.
NGL. Its time for the working class to reclaim this country.
Juturna,
That won’t happen until the ILLEGALS are removed. As long as they are here, business will continue to use them. As long as there are no consequences for business to use them, they will continue.
I have a plan:
Close the borders
Stop all immigration for 10 years (allow those already in the pipeline to continue the process)
Give all those here ILLEGALLY 90 days to get their affairs in order and leave voluntarily. (NO AMNESTY IN ANY REGARD) No one is rewarded for jumping the fence or overstaying a visa.
If they do not decide to leave on their own and they are encountered, they are deported immediately with ALL family members. Property seized and auctioned off to help pay for the enforcement of the law
FIX the 14th amendment. It was not designed to give babies born here to ILLEGAL parents automatic citizenship.
Fix the immigration laws (this is the reason to put a 10 year hold on immigration)
Set a reasonable quota for ALL skill levels of workers
Thoroughly test the e-verify system
Develop a tracking program for guest workers
If this takes less than 10 years, then so be it. This will ensure we get a comprehensive immigration reform solution to the problems the country faces today.
Juturna,
That won’t happen until the ILLEGALS are removed. As long as they are here, business will continue to use them. As long as there are no consequences for business to use them, they will continue.
I have a plan:
Close the borders
Stop all immigration for 10 years (allow those already in the pipeline to continue the process)
Give all those here ILLEGALLY 90 days to get their affairs in order and leave voluntarily. (NO AMNESTY IN ANY REGARD) No one is rewarded for jumping the fence or overstaying a visa.
If they do not decide to leave on their own and they are encountered, they are deported immediately with ALL family members. Property seized and auctioned off to help pay for the enforcement of the law
FIX the 14th amendment. It was not designed to give babies born here to ILLEGAL parents automatic citizenship.
Fix the immigration laws (this is the reason to put a 10 year hold on immigration)
Set a reasonable quota for ALL skill levels of workers
Thoroughly test the e-verify system
Develop a tracking program for guest workers
If this takes less than 10 years, then so be it. This will ensure we get a comprehensive immigration reform solution to the problems the country faces today. We have to make sure that all portions are enforced or this will not work.
Robb said:
“Mando, you stated:
“That’s why these threads are horse $hit.
“Ironic you feel that way considering you choose to continue shoveling here (and shovel quite a lot, I might add).”
Well yeah… the more horse $hit you drop here the more that needs to be shoveled.
Censored said:
“The problem that I’ve seen in the carpet industry for example is that the more education a person has, the less likely he/she is to take these low paying jobs. ”
How is that a problem? Manufacturing industries are being exported to countries with scads of unskilled and uneducated labor (similar to what we were at the turn of the century). Our labor force has advanced beyond this segment which is a good thing. Why keep those jobs here?
Robb said:
“The American Colonists in the late 1700’s weren’t fighting for survival against hunger or poverty, they were fighting for political self-determination. And they were not haunted by the spectre of powerlessness. Mexico and Central America in 2008 cannot possibly compare to America in 1776. Hence the reason why a contemporary call to Mexicans and Central Americans to “rise up and grasp your rights” the way our forefathers did is vastly unrealistic.”
Re-write history much? It’s nothing less then a miracle that a bunch of poor and untrained peasents fought off the largest organized military in the know world. All at the expense of their families which went without while their husbands/fathers fought for a great cause against insane odds.
You really make me laugh.
I was looking for a blog that offered an opportunity to participate in rational debate of issues based on facts and reason. Antibvbl has not offered that. In fact, I’ve found the regular posters here no less polemical than you accuse the bvbl crowd of being. Antibvbl has neither deleted nor censored any of my posts, and for that I applaud you. However, you have been unwilling to engage on the issues. I research my comments thoroughly, document the sources of the information I cite, and am willing to open myself to fair criticism that might prove my positions wrong.
The responses here have all fallen into one of two categories. First, stating that immigration should be controlled based on the interests of middle and working class Americans, or that all potential immigrants (legal or illegal) do not have an automatic right to come here, is said by the regulars on this blog to be an argument used for decades to exclude some people on the basis of race or ethnicity. You claim this is “common sense” and refuse to deal with the economic impacts of immigration on middle and working class Americans.
Posters will occasionally state boilerplate arguments about immigration being needed to grow the economy, without citing any verifiable data or research. This is a straw man argument anyway. Of course, we need immigration to fill gaps in the economy. My own views on immigration are probably more similar to Elena’s to the Greg Letiecq’s. However, emigration to the U.S. is neither a right that all foreigners hold to exercise at their discretion, nor a policy matter for corporate interests, lobbyists, and their “bought” politicians to determine in the service of their own interests.
The second category of responses from antibvbl regulars to differing opinions is to resort to the old stand-by of attacking the person making the argument rather than dealing with the argument’s merits. These attacks take the form of the new McCarthyism of allegations of racism. In response to two of my posts focusing on the economic dimensions of immigration, Elena responded, “Why is it that whenever there is a new migration, centered around the increased numbers of one ethnic group, the same arguments arise? Your economic argument today is no different than the argument of a century ago,” and “This argument you are using has been used MULTIPLE times, not only in this country, but throughout the centuries in many lands. The new faces that look and sound different are the reasons for all ‘our’ troubles.” Why can’t any of the antibvbl regulars actually address the economic issues with verifiable data and research?
I tried using a historical analogy that had as its premise that cooperating with Nazi Germany was BAD. Two responses implied that I was attacking Elena because she is Jewish.
I’m not falling for this mud-slinging. You have stated that many of the arguments for restricting immigration have been around for decades. Also, the tactic of avoiding substantive debate by attacking, or casting aspersions on the motivations of, the person making the argument has been around for decades. Implying, or accusing outright, that the person holding the other opinion is racist, motivated by ethnic considerations, or even anti-Semitic, is nothing more than a tactic to take attention off the substantive issues of the debate.
Regulars on antibvbl are no more interested in open debate than you accuse the bvbl regulars of being. You want others who hold the same views as yours to participate and support each other. Post a different opinion here and replies avoid substantive discussion. They devolve into allegations and innuendo of nefarious ethnic motivations. I’ve been looking for a blog to participate in intelligent debate and discussion of issues. Antibvbl is not it. I may post again but really think that the only thing the regulars here want is people who agree with them.
SMC,
So what? We like it here.
Save the Middle Class – you may have come to the wrong place if you were looking for a blog that offered an opportunity to participate in rational debate of issues based on facts and reason.
I think that the more vocal posters here comment based on emotion instead of facts and reason. The reason I think that is because some of them have family and/or friends here illegally. I could be wrong about that but that’s what it seems to me. Is there anything wrong with that, I don’t think so but it does hinder the ability to separate emotion from facts and reason.
Mando stated (at 28. August 2008, 14:31):
Once again, Mando, you completely leap over and entirely miss the point I clearly made. MANY of the Colonists in Washington’s army may have been poor, but not all of them were. MANY of the Colonists in Washington’s army may have been untrained, but not all of them were. As for “peasants”, you’ll really have to explain what in the world a “peasant” was in 1770’s America.
HOWEVER — and I hope you catch this point (though I have my doubts) — the poorness of some and the militarily untrained status of some does not at all translate into a war that was a fight for survival against hunger or poverty. The Revolutionary War was the military expression of the Colonists’ fight for political self-determination.
And just to punctuate this fact, nowhere in the Declaration of Independence, which made the case for revolution, is “hunger and poverty” mentioned as something which the Colonies were suffering and which they needed to fight against. Read for yourself by clicking here.
Today, Mexico (as just one example) is a democratic country. Yet millions live in hunger and poverty. Hunger and poverty are their main oppressors. Hunger and poverty are what they battle against. The fight for sustenance and livable wages that can provide it is what defines their central war.
And if many of them who suffer would come to this country for the sake of their survival, it is our human obligation to render compassionate aid and assist them in their battle, their “legal” status being completely and utterly irrelevant.
There’s more to the story:
GALVESTON — An autopsy report released Thursday is unlikely to resolve a dispute over whether a 17-year-old illegal immigrant was beaten by League City police before hanging himself in the Galveston County Jail.
The report said Arturo Chavez had a half-inch wound on the right side of his head, black eyes and marks on his back, but reached no conclusion as to how the wounds were inflicted.
“There is blunt trauma,” said Stephen Pustilnik, Galveston County chief medical examiner. “Whether you would call that a beating, I don’t know. He could have hit his head on something or something could have hit him in the head.”………………
Unsure about the cause of his black eyes, jail nurses placed Chavez in a special cell for prisoners with communicable diseases that prevents air from circulating to other parts of the lockup, according to sheriff’s reports.
Reports said he complained that his eyes hurt and that he seemed to be tolerating his cell even though he felt claustrophobic.
The cell is next to the padded suicide cells that are supposed to be under constant observation and checked every 15 minutes.
The reports show Chavez was screened, and his answers gave no indication of suicidal tendencies.
A guard reported that Chavez, referred to as Batentzun in the reports, and another inmate were watching Apollo 13 on television from their cells about 6:40 p.m.
Chavez asked the guard several times for permission to make a phone call, but was denied because he already had made a call that day, the report says.
About 10:19 p.m. the inmate across the hall from Chavez’s cell reported seeing him hanging in his cell.
Chavez had tied a blanket to a shower head, pulled it across a partition and tied the other end around his neck.
Guards and nurses cut him down, administered CPR and used a defibrillator in a failed attempt to restart the heart with an electrical jolt, all to no avail, the reports say.
A log sheet shows that he was taken to the University of Texas Medical Center at Galveston, where he was pronounced dead about 11:11 p.m.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5972950.html
Hi El Guapo, am I missing something? Didn’t this kid try to escape from the police when they tried to detain him? Maybe that is where some of the other injuries occured.
He was where he was because he already had injuries when he was arrived. There’s no question about that. Unfortunately the autopsy report doesn’t answer all our questions.
Robb,
Great response to Mando! I wonder if it will penetrate.
On a seperate note, how do you respond to the argument, “well, we just can’t save them all” , “we have to have control over the health and well being of our own country”, “opening our borders will contribute to the economic instability of the United States.”
I struggle with my own position regarding the best immigration policy and these are questions I have difficulty answering, even for myself.
Hi Hello,
I do not have friends or family who are here undocumented or “illegal” (my great aunt Sara is long gone and so are her “illegal” alien “aiders and abetters” ). I simply believe that the immigration debate has been seen in this country before, on more than one occasion throughout our history, and that the arguments are always the same, it’s just the target that changes. I have given facts to support my position, both economically and historically. I have posted several threads with factual information. At the heart of my concern is that this debate has reduced our fellow human beings to a non person status, I find that extremely offensive and unacceptable. I was raised to believe, that when one group of people is villified and scapegoated for a nations ills, you better watch out, you could be next. That the KKK and Neo-Nazi’s have seen a tremendous surge in membership due to the rhetoric surrounding immigration and should concern any reasonable thinking person.
I don’t pretend to be an expert on immigration or econmics, I simply do my own research on come to my own conclusions. I have debated Save The MC fairly and respectfully.
Save the Middle Class,
Maybe I am missing something. When and who attacked you for making your arguments? Who said you were referencing anything about my being Jewish? I believe that many people, like yourself, are simply being misled. And I have found that we have our own facts to support our positions. It’s our own personal world view that dictates what “facts” we believe are credible and which “facts” are not.
Here is a great review of a book that exemplifies where stand on immigration. I do have a life other than this blog so I really don’t have the time to create the summary right now. Much of what is in this review has been debated on anti, very fairly and openly, with facts to support the suppositions. How about this, I will try to put this book up for debate on a thread next week and I hope you come back to debate.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/26115979.html