BVBL Strives for High Standard?
Greg L said on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:37 am:
Monticup, I understand your frustration and outrage, but try to refrain from characterizing all illegal aliens as nascent criminals. Some are, but it would appear that they’re a pretty small minority. With somewhere around 12 million illegal aliens in the US by conservative estimates, if they were all predisposed to criminal behavior we’d be far worse off than we are. There are about 300,000 illegal aliens in Virginia, and we certainly don’t have a crime explosion that such numbers would create.A big problem however is that of those 300,000 we have no idea who they are. Among them are certainly some of the worst folks you could imagine from both a crime and a national security perspective. In order to ensure these bad actors aren’t present, the lawful deportation of as many illegal aliens as possible is a way to ensure we remove those who pose the most significant threat as well as (perhaps more significantly) discourage other bad actors from unlawfully entering the country.
If we cannot control our borders, we are no longer a sovereign nation, and our democracy is in grave peril. As we seek to do so, we have to be certain that what we ask for is reasoned and responsible. We can’t do that very well by saying all illegal aliens are invariably rapists and murderers without undermining our arguments. There’s enough provable and unambiguous data out there to support our arguments without stretching so much, and in ways that can become counterproductive.
We have to maintain a higher standard than anyone else, and while it might not be fair, that’s just how it is. Let’s do our best to be better than those arguing the other side.
Acutally, it’s almost refreshing to see Mr. Leteicq make this kind of statement. It’s in sharp contrast to his infamous ‘Dog for Sale’ thread. Apparently he is coming to the realization that in order to be considered a rational voice in the immigration debate he can no longer permit the previously employed rhetoric and mischaracterizations of all ‘illegals’ as being rapists, murderers etc… To what extent this transformation is a result of our efforts might never be known but I feel confident that we have contributed to forming the terms of this discussion. Congratulations to everyone for their continued participation.
Campaign season is quickly approaching and unless Greg wants to be viewed as a total whackjob and a liability to the Republican party at a time when it needs Hispanics’ votes, he needs to tone it down. I’m sure he’ll be glad to oblige though when the need for a little Swift-boating or hate-mongering is deemed necesssary to put the usual last minute scare into the “Freedom Fry” voters. (I still have to laugh at that description, WHWN.) I don’t think he’s had an elemental change in personality. I don’t know many “normal” people that have said the crapola he’s said or done the sneaky manuevers and bragged about it. Nope – the local Republican Party found their low-life in GL.
Greg has completely and forever damaged any credibility that he ever had. His ‘Dog-for-Sale’ post will be a constant reminder of his character. People have a long memory and that blunder will follow him around forever. It was another example of a huge miscalculation on his part and he’s unable to blame it on some anonymous poster.
Perhaps his motivation comes from when “The Order of the Red Circle” became “The Order of the Red Spot.
LOL! Nice attempt Allana, but without its boogeyman, this blog would cease to be. Now back to business as usual.
Mando-
Does that mean the boogeyman will be moving to another jurisdication to trash it’s reputation? Please, get him out of PWC.
Mando,
I’ll give you this – without the nonsense of Mr. Letiecq and cohorts I wouldn’t have had to start this blog but I think that’s perfectly clear to everyone, right?
Interesting change in dialog from Greg. I guess I am going to have to agree with Censored. He has something to gain. I wish I could believe otherwise but at this point that would be difficult.
This is what I posted after I read Greg’s thread “Another Illegal Alien Murder” and I got beat up pretty bad over there. Still getting beat up today.
There is little if any evidence of a proclivity to crime among unauthorized immigrants. To make such a claim based on a some horrific incident, or even on the basis of multiple criminal incidents, doesn’t amount to proof of anything – other than the potential of human beings to do evil.
That doesn’t mean that our immigration system doesn’t need to be fixed. Our immigration laws should bar criminals from entering the country in the first place or deport immigrants convicted of serious offenses after admission. ICE has done little to hold up its end of the bargain i.e. ICE detainers. Let’s not confuse the two issues. Stigmatizing unauthorized immigrants, the vast majority of whom are hard-working and law-abiding, doesn’t solve urban crime problems; nor does it address the flaws in our immigration system.
When legal avenues to migrate are limited, when native birth rates are low and economies are healthy, illegal immigration will grow. The cure for the problem of illegal immigration is to establish a realistic immigration system and to bring the undocumented population out of the shadows through some type of earned legalization program. Thumping up irrational fears of criminal behavior and turning the undocumented into pariahs are not in our nation’s or community’s best interest.
I went on to say in another post that I felt like the first step to solving this problem would be to seal the borders and the ports. For some reason that did not go over too well either.
I just decided my input was not welcome there. That I was dismissed as being dumb and naive. There is no opportunity for discussion or expression of a different view. I do not know why I bother. I must be nuts to even visit that site.
Marie, you got the usual response from the usual whiners…er, posters.
Mando, I don’t think this blog would cease to be without GL. Alanna and Elena have done a good job of presenting information about different immigration issues. That’s much more informative than hearing the following ad infinitum, courtesy of the dark side’s denizens – “illegal is illegal”, “what part of illegal don’t you understand”, “when they self-deport”, or if they don’t self-deport – “deport them all”, “they’re criminals – they crossed the border illegally; once they’ve committed one crime, they’ll continue”.
Marie-
Don’t waste your “pearls of wisdom” on them. They’ll get censored, if not deleted all together. Even though I believe we all want secure borders. You are not one of the “army” and therefore you are the “enemy”. Stay away from the dark screen it’s hazardous to your mental health.
Poor Monticup, Greg has been posting these kinds of negative stories in hopes of illiciting responses from the “usuals”, and Monticup, along with others, are more than happy to oblige with racial and prejudicial comments about latino’s. Now, deciding that he must appear more rational, Greg pulls the carpet out from under them and chides them for not maintaining the “high standard” that the the immigration debate requires.
Greg states “as we seek to do so, we have to be certain that what we ask for is reasoned and responsible. ” Isn’t that language we have used consistently here, reasonable and responsible solutions that encompass the fiscal AND human impacts of any reform to our immigration policy? And for that we get labeled illegal alien apologists, fat broads, and elitists!
What was Monticup’s response to Greg?
Mando,
When people come here to debate the issue of illegal immigration, they are not villified. It is only when people come here, faceless and nameless, calling hispanics invaders, cockroaches, prone to criminality, etc etc, that they are reprimanded. I find it interesting, with all the non partisan research I have done, that I have heard very little discussion regarding the clear facts. Save the Middle Class commented briefly, and he/she was not villified or called racist or any other name. There is a war on the middle class, but it isn’t being waged by latino immigrants.
Elena, nice post.
Monticup is MUTE. Not word one.
Thanks Chris
Hmmm, interesting, Monticup must be wondering if he is still on the right site!
Mando states the obvious. When has that ever been denied?
The name should be a big hint. ANTI-bvbl.
Mixed feelings here. My initial reaction was one of relief. Perhaps the politicized hatred that has been degrading this county for so long will be less palpable if the infamous blog that has already seen its readership stolen also scales back on the rhetoric. I can only imagine the confusion of the remaining Gospel Greg Clones. One of them is signing up for speech therapy to learn how to speak of ethbic people WITHOUT the slurs and bigoted villifications. The other will soon start his own blog where hate reigns supreme now that Gospel Greg has gone soft on him.
Seriously, I am glad if Greg has a genuine change of heart. It really sounds as if he is accepting defeat and trying to prepare his flock for inevitable immigration reform complete with “amnesty.” As others have pointed out, he needs to shift to the left to fall in line with McCain. But I think it’s too soon for the most notorious right wing extremist in the region to come back to the fold and make any sort of contribution to the race this year. Plainly speaking, he hurts McCain no matter what he does. He has dicredited and disgraced himself and alienated the vast majority of voters who know who he is. The only voters he has any influence over are of the Freedom Fry variety, meaning their vote for McCain has already been assured by an email rumor or any number of propaganda outlets, many of which have more credibility than Greg.
Jorge Pollo
Thanks. You are right. I need to say away from the dark screen.
Vacation over. I see there was a big armed robbery over in ‘hoodbridge. I guess GL will be going nuts trying to post the bad news so people can be ’sick and tired of this behavior.’ I don’t know what they will do once they find out the perp has a NON-Hispanic last name.
http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/crime/article/police_negotiating_with_man_barricaded_in_house/19940/
Marie, people calling you “dumb” and “naive” is definitely disrespectful. But I also saw that several were quite respectful, even though they disagreed with you. The same thing happens here all the time.
And if you don’t like “the dark screen,” you can click on the “switch colors” link at the top
To my knowledge none of those who influence Greg, and who Greg influences are surprised at this latest comment from him. He is right on track, as are those who advocate for this position.
I will post what I have been banned from posting over at the other blog, when posters were talking about how Anti-BVBL was attacking, disrespectful, and intolerant of opposing views:
“You should read some recent threads on the Anti blog. There are several people over there who have apologized when they have offended some regular posters over here. There are some who have made mildly inflammatory comments, and then have said they were sorry when someone expressed their concern. There are people who have admitted when they find they are wrong about a claim or piece of data. They will tell posters of obviously different opinions when they think they have made valid points.
Can the same be said of this blog [bvbl]? You will find that people on Anti will strongly disagree with your opinions, but most won’t attack you. If it does happen, recent evidence indicates that you will get a sincere apology rather than the oh-so-hilarious standard false apology you will get here [bvbl].
I have not made attacking comments on this blog [bvbl]. My opinions, while distasteful to most here, are not disrespectful; you can check the archives and see. Still, my comments have been removed several times, and I have been banned before. I am not even sure that this message will make it through…
-Diversity Gal”
…and it did not make it through. Oh well:(
I have had a few instances on both blogs where I would type a lengthy post, hit the “submit” key and it disappears, never to be seen again, and the screen scrolls to the top. I don’t know if it is a glitch in the software or whether I temporarily lost my connection or what. Nothing inflammatory, just talk, and I know it has happened to other people as well. I also know that when I thought I was censored, I found I had posted on a different thread than I had thought. It’s possible that you weren’t “censored” at all.
Actually, DiversityGal I’m surprised you lasted as long as you did. I credit this as well to the existence of Anti, no longer is he the only show in town and he has had to make some adjustments with the comments he allows to post. There have been many such instances where he has allowed comments which I guarantee would never have been allowed before.
Anybody else banned of late?
Honestly, I don’t understand why he doesn’t permit an open discussion of this issue? What does he have to lose? maybe the debate?
Emma,
He’ll readily tell you that he censors, just ask.
Well, it is his blog, just like this is your blog and you can choose to define it–and the rules–as you see fit. I’ve been reminded of that at least a couple times by posters here. What is the difference?
I have said that I give credit where credit is due. I have also explained my disappointment with HSM and BVBL and my journey to why I joined HSM and left. I have also expressed the frustration that both should have been distinguishable from the very BEGGINING and found MYSELF defending the difference.
With that said, I will play devil’s advocate or hopeful that the good that I have seen is being reflected and can admit when wrong. Do we knock a chance at someone trying to say they are sorry? Do we look at it as another political ploy? I guess the answer will be told in time.
Chris,
I am PROUD of you for taking a stand and talking about vigilantism. I have shared my concerns about the 7-11 stalk/or exercising of constitutional rights. ( the birth of the debate)
I am looking at ALL of this from a different perspective. I see the threat of losing the right of “guilty until proven innocent”.
Anyway, Mackie, I have a video for you what do you think this is all about ? To change the subject OR does it? LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reCpV1YHuYs
Correction
I knew I could post without a flub.Flub meaning a genetic disposition of a fat broad LOL!
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! I guess I hung myself…..LOL
I am left handed and sometimes get things reversed. ( go left no I mean that LEFT-ask anyone who drives/rides with me:) )
emma,
they did censor here, just not now..honestly they did in the past but recently other than a few edits to my posts they remained. I’m still testing the waters however
Emma,
I am banned. One of my comments in a thread on the other blog was posted and counted in the response number, and then the response number later was reduced by one. That told me something was awry.
When you are banned, you can still see your comment on YOUR computer, but it cannot be seen by other computers. It is also not counted in the response number. I have tried to post several times after my initial clue, to no avail.
anyone that has been or wants to debate censorship or what ever disagreement, this song comes to mind
WARNING: bad words ;(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThkzfsTyqAQ
DiversityGal,
Take this advise I left for Marie
Marie-
Don’t waste your “pearls of wisdom” on them. They’ll get censored, if not deleted all together. Even though I believe we all want secure borders. You are not one of the “army” and therefore you are the “enemy”. Stay away from the dark screen it’s hazardous to your mental health.
It does seem strange that Greg L. censors and bans people so frequently. It is like an admission of cowardice. What is he afraid of? If his position is so strong, if it represents a majority opinion, then why not allow a full run of opposing views on his site? Instead, his blog is less and less visited and his disciples can’t resist coming here. Even they get bored preaching to the choir. If I were Greg, I would man up and invite all comers to post. If he is worried about civility, his opponents tend to be more polite than his posters anyway.
People are banned on bvbl if they continue to not agree with the management. Rather than being honest with the person, some people post and do not realize they cannot be seen. This is a big joke from what I have heard.
Yes, it is his blog. He can do what he wants. And he does.
There is simply no comparison between the 2 blogs. When people are banned here, they know it. Censorship only happened twice and it dealt with personal information. Alanna has spelled it out. Some of you still chose not to listen to her.
Occassionally posts disappear. Don’t read anything into it. You will be told if you are being censored or put into moderation.
…except I think one of Gregs aliases is Monticup. Greg is a chameleon.
Elvis,
Your in moderation which is slightly different than outright censorship. In your case we have replaced expletives for a cleaner version but that’s it. If I recall correctly you have received two warnings from us because of pretty vicious personal attacks but even those we have allowed to post.
Moon-howler,
HOWLLLLLLLLLLL, I hear that it is a full moon tonight
Anyway, as far as the IP address being brought to light- I want to remind whoever was concerned about that ( in COMPARISON to BVBL) it was done over there too- last year.
I am NOT computer savvy, so I don’t know the harm BUT think it is bad practice because I like to fight with my big brother
Emma,
Of course he can do whatever he wants with his blog. I just wouldn’t waste my time & energy denying his censorship when he’ll readily admit to it, that’s all I said.
I don’t think Greg complained about the IP address, if I recall correctly it was es_la_ley. Anyways, I suppose it was bad form, I’m still learning blog etiquette.
Alanna,
You are correct as to who complained about the IP address.( MAYBE one other person? not sure) Anyway,I would be freaked out a bit from it being exposed BUT as I said I am NOT computer savvy enough to know the harm ( my PERSONAL FLAW, is kick ass and take names later
soooooooooooo kidding- just being cautious )
I miss or better term admired/semi-trusted, es_la_ley, and if they felt concern, I take note. All I wanted to do was point out that exposing someone’s IP address in the battle of anti bvbl and bvbl has already been done on bvbl. So what gives? not sure….I just tell the truth
Off to bed and I leave EVERYONE with this thought/song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFP80LCtA0
Red Dawn-still not sure why I have problems posting videos/links
Red Dawn, I did not comment on the IP address.
Those who do not like that it was done will get over it or they can not blog here. There was a reason for doing it. Actually it was a rent-a-IP. The mock outrage was for effect.
Wait.
So Greg IS Monticup???? He scolded HIMSELF for using bigotry to make his political case?
What in the heck is the point of that!?!?
Moon-howler,
NO, YOU didn’t mention the IP address. I was ADDING to your comment about other concerns.( the list) Sorry for the confusion , if it was not clear. Howlllllllll
NGL
Dark screeners are often known to talk to and answer themselves. They use several monikers to make themselves look sane.
Good post however I believe that Monitcup is one of Gregs many aliases.
I doubt he found “religion” even for an election. Unless someone told him to.
Oh how interesting…
Looking back at the “Another Illegal Alien Murder” thread on the other blog, I noticed some things. Marie was posting about her viewpoints not being tolerated on that site, and several people started dogging Anti-bvbl. Around 8:00 pm, I attempted to post (see prior comment), but was censored. Around 10:00 pm, monitcup posted his nasty generalizations, and then Greg posted his remarks.
I think it’s quite interesting how the kinder, gentler Greg appeared after these posts. I truly hope that he actually does feel those generalizations were wrong, but I have this gut feeling that he wanted to appear level-headed before anyone else pointed out the differences between his site and this one.
“Wait.
So Greg IS Monticup???? He scolded HIMSELF for using bigotry to make his political case?
What in the heck is the point of that!?!?”
GL has some “voices in his head” as he has said about me. Fortunately, my voices are pretty consistent and honest. And I don’t talk to myself like Schmiegal in Lord of the Rings as he does (”for US Precious!”)
There was Patriot and a few others that I assumed were Greg. There are some here that I also assume are Greg.
The opinion may vary, but the cadence, the focus, the dismissal of others the intolerance regardless of which side…. he is careful not to use similar phraseology, however, cadence is like handwriting.
Look around. This is his life. This is all about control with him. Control and coercion….
Re-reading this site I see where many are hoping Greg has “come to his senses” or doesn’t want anti bashing him.
Reminds me of the time my Grandmother explained to my father that Lawrence Welk had to play modern music to keep the younger audience interested in the program.
Pllluueezzzeeee….
I am with you KG. Your voices work for most thinking people. His voices are of the David Koresch, Jim Jones variety.
Having once been quite active in the territory Greg Letiecq currently occupies (i.e., the “anti-illegal immigration” territory), I can tell you that there is often a broad spectrum of temperament that is experienced as a leading “anti-illegal immigration” activist. Along with the many moments of expressing negativity and vileness, there are momentary flashes of kinder and gentler expressions. For example, at my own rally last year when I and my fellow speakers were spewing fiery rhetoric in regards to “illegal aliens”, a couple of us, myself included, would occasionaly do a 180 and change temperament and try our best to recognize certain basic realities. Such as “not all illegal aliens are criminals”. “They are human beings too.” Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
And I suppose the reason for such emotional vascilation is quite simply due to conscience, especially when observing others whose express viciousness toward immigrating people and other races which reaches excessively obscene and vile levels (this occurred at my rally, in fact). Anyone with a conscience, even on the “anti-illegal immigration” side, would be motivated to attempt creating balance and inserting reason into the mix.
But as for Greg Letiecq’s comments, they don’t even come close to reflecting even the remotest change of heart. All he did was express a truism: not all undocumented immigrants commit terrible crimes. What he had, as far as I could detect, was not a moment of conscience, but a moment of rationality. Nothing more.
And everyone should take a closer look at the second, third, and fourth paragraphs of his post to see that the standard Greg Letiecq is still on stage.
While it’s positive to be encouraged by Greg’s brief moment of rationality, I caution everyone when regarding his remarks not to invest too heavily in the sentiment of his words. It was a mere moment.
And let’s all remember, per the famous Greg Letiecq video (click here to view), that Greg Letiecq’s moments of rationality include such touching expressions as “not only do we want to send them back, but we want to send them back with love.”
I agree with Robb Pearson. Don’t be fooled into thinking there was some sort of change of heart. He probably got a memo from F.A.I.R. suggesting a kinder, gentler stance for some political motive. Has anyone ever seen Monticup? If not, perhaps Juturna is right on the money.
Robb,
I agree with you “brief moment of rationality”. This is only to keep the troops in check. It’ll be the same ole song and dance before we know it.
You can get beaten up by agreeing with someone. And don’t dare talk back to one of the boss girls. Chris, the smart troops are no longer troops. Some people just don’t stay in check well, do they?
Speaking of good old Alt-med, I see the grass has been mowed finally. Now where is that sand blaster?
dolph,
Right you are. And don’t dare speak to one about their words to one that was agreeing with the graffiti. Then the whole damn comment gets DELETED! Well, deleted from there maybe, but NOT here.
A google search of “monticup” reveals a Charlottesville magic shop – perhaps a hint there’s a sleight of hand…er, typing fingers.
Okay. So Greg created “Monticup” to make himself look “sane” at the expense of his readers and blog posters? That’s not very nice. Not very honest either. If I were one of his followers (God help me for even mentioning the idea!) I would not appreciate being “thrown under the bus” in this way.
That man’s got nerve! He makes up a character, writes something vile, and this is supposed to reflect poorly on the average BVBL poster but not on Gospel Greg himself who is quick to supply the voice of reason?????
For the first time, I feel sympathy for his followers.
There are more persona’s than Monticup. I firmly believe they are here on anti as well. The guy is an absolute lunatic. “Send them back with love” ended any thoughts I had about his credibility immediately.
Yeah, Juturna, I can think of more suspect IDs. There was the “link” king who said he lived in Independent Hill and saw loiters at Blooms, but was obsessed with every piece of trash on Sudley Manor Drive and attended church over there. There were a couple more dittoheads who could be counted on to back up GL. I think some are still there. What is funny is how there is a hiatus of posts which coincide with Gospel Greg’s absence.
Talking about people hearing voices, Elvis posted something today in the other blog that tells me that he left us for good…. A sad day for all of us.
” I’ve spent too much time over on the “anti” blog and now I’m making my permanent return. it got old speaking with those “people” and finally came to the realization that basically the blog was just a front for them filming fairies that call themselves 9500 liberty. I’m probably even going to sign up for help save Manassas as well”
I hope he feels that we sent him back with love to a more deserving blog
“I am with you KG. Your voices work for most thinking people. His voices are of the David Koresch, Jim Jones variety.”
Thanks, Jut. I prefer my own voices as well
LOL! Let’s send Elvis away with love, shall we?
I have never been a hateful spiteful person. However…… I am learning with Greg that there is real evil in the world. Like anything else, I guess it takes running smack into it to actually believe it. This is something that cannot be medicalized or attributed to a bad mother….
His agenda is so unlike anything that I was raised to deal with……. for that fact probably most of us fall into that category. Once you see it though its impact is immediate and it does not make you a bad person to say you see it. It is what it is.
“Speaking of good old Alt-med, I see the grass has been mowed finally. Now where is that sand blaster?”
LOL! Did John Stirrup get out there with his weed whacker?
Ha Ha KG…..
Remember, Elvis is our reminder of what is bad…..
Yeah, well without him we’d probably forget there is evil in the human heart that we can’t ignore. Perhaps we should thank old Elvis for that.
Exactly. He’s a reminder of the balance of order in the world. Greg wins for most evil. Elivis tries but falls short. A bit.
We still have Mando, so don’t worry about “those voices”
…and Michael.
Well, now….. looks like Elvis is a goner. I would take the “deaf ears” comment as a compliment. Also looks like HSM membership should almost double if he signs up. Also, would the fairies please stand up?
Now should we take bets on how long he can stay over there since there is so little action anymore?? Anyone want to find his last post and save it for posterity????? Bet they won’t call him “Tickle Me” over there!!!
elvis said on 20 Aug 2008 at 10:09 am:
Thanks for the warm welcome back!
I’ve spent too much time over on the “anti” blog and now I’m making my permanent return. it got old speaking with those “people” and finally came to the realization that basically the blog was just a front for them filming fairies that call themselves 9500 liberty. I’m probably even going to sign up for help save Manassas as well.
anon143 said on 20 Aug 2008 at 10:13 am:
Elvis! GREAT news!
I have to say that you had the patience of a saint for staying “over there” as long as you did….I hate to tell you that your comments were falling on deaf ears.
Thanks for being braving enough to visit bvbl, and report back, Juturna.
Well, I hope gets the application printed off and hand delivers it to next weeks meeting. Elvis will be one more reason to stay for rational people not to join the ranks of HSM.
Forgot the woman/man..
I hope Elvis get the application printed off…
And once again this blog celebrates driving off people who don’t agree with their agenda. Typical. Their next targets appear to be Mando and Michael. Then they can just have a boring discussion where everyone agrees on everything.
Evlis is in a different league from those two, el verdad.
El Verdad,
Apparently you missed the rudeness and vulgarity demonstrated by Elvis. I am sure you will not enjoy his insults and nastiness if he finds someone to dislike.
He was given many chances to debate the issues rather than hurl insults at people. Enjoy! We send him to you with love.
Since you are interested in the truth, know that it wasn’t the issues but his delivery system. I also don’t believe we have seen the last of Old Tickle Me. I expect he will come back in another form…a reincarnation as it were. Lets hope this next life has better manners.
If there was an agenda it would merit discussion. I don’t consider search and destroy an agenda. More a lifestlye.
Search and destroy and character assassination are the trademarks of cowardice. Those who operate in that mode are generally very good at what they do. They just don’t have many real friends and are often reviled by most of the human race.
As was seen in Lord of the Flies, there are sycophants who usually enjoy pulling the wings off of flies. These people are generally not those with whom one would like to associate.
Always great to see rationality enter this debate.
Talking about people disappearing, Do you know what happened to Patriot? Chris or Red Dawn, Do you know?
Jutura, that comment was uncalled for. Michael is FAR from evil. You have never read my posts carefully, but built up an image in your own intolerent and bigoted mind based only on what you want to believe, not on the facts of my postings.
Hi Dolph, good to see you again.
Diversity Gal, you might try checking to see if your firewall, (if you have one) causes your BVBL posts to be behaving differently on bvbl than here. My posts will sometimes do the same here (not increment a counter, go into poof land, etc), but that is because my firewall is very tight, does not like some of the paypal re-directs, and this blog even has code logic errors in it that my machine will not process due to the java script security settings.
Elena and Allanna have both been very respectful about my opposing view posts (I do not support “illegal” immigrants, support only legal immigrants, and for that “legal” view, some people (like Jutura, and WHWN) think I am evil, uneducated or uninformed. I’ll put my career and education any day against theirs and I’ll bet they would see me in a much more respectful light. I simply disagree on what is best for America, based on my experiences as an aviator and soldier seeing the rest of the world and the events I see here repeating those failures I’ve seen in the rest of the world to respect and to follow law, integrate races, religions and ethnic groups and prevent political factioning, all of which is critical for peace, prosperity and stability. I have seen first hand what happens when you do not do this, and I am simply warning all of you to avoid it before it is too late. You can call that evil if you want, I call it rational and necessary for survival of the US democracy and national ideology focused primarily on individual rights (As George Mason envisioned when he influenced the BILL of RIGHTS, and James Madison cautioned in the writing of the Constitution to beware of the power of political factions to destroy a national government and nation.
Most of you here just don’t agree with such concepts, and I think that is very sad for our countries viable financial and political future. I’m doing what I can to change your mind.
Patriot another Greg alias.
I might also add Greg L. has also been very respectful of my opposing posts on his blog, It is the radical elements on each blog that are so disrespectful, angry and intolerant. Neither blog owner can control the “negative and false images” created about a person’s character through mis-representation, twisting of facts, un-warrented and malicious character assassination and outright lies to manipulate people’s opinions. I have seen extreme behaviors of this type out of many on both blogs. I have personally not seen this extreme behavior by either Blog’s moderators, only a difference of opinion. Greg opposes “Illegal” immigration, and to my knowledge has never attacked “legal” immigration concepts, although many of the wacko poster’s on his blog have. His only mistake I’ve seen was rely too heavilty on his religious beliefs to guide his decisions to seek political advocacy and influence with his local government. That is what religious people do and that is also what “liberals” intent on destroying “conservatives” will do.
It is the people in the middle that are the only rational people on either blog or in either party. I have often said we need to get rid of the extreme left in the “Donkey” party, and get rid of the extreme right in the “Elephant” party and we will have a more justly governed nation. We lost the ability for the middle and most rational people in either party to have a poligtical voice, and impact on elections when political action committies and corporate funding of elections, AND appointment rather than ELECTION of people into government and private positions of political power became the norm 20 yeas ago.
Jutura, you should more wisely speak with facts, not your emotions. I know from factual information provided by Patriot in many previous posts on BVBL that Patriot is not Greg, and neither is Monticup to my knowledge. Dolph or Red Dawn probably can provide proof of that, as they likely (maybe not) know each of them personally.
So rare to be in the company of such perfection!
I didn’t intend to call you evil. Apologies. Just over the top.
Why on earth would you want to challenge educational backgrounds?
I visited the BVBL blog early this afternoon (around 12:45pm) and left a comment under the topic “Another Illegal Alien Murder“, where Greg Letiecq made the comments that are the subject of this particular thread here on anti-BVBL. I’m not certain if first-time posts on BVBL require authorization before publication, but my post has yet to appear. I’ll wait with patience to see if it eventually, if ever, shows up. In the mean time, here’s what I posted there . . .
My reason for making the post, and stating my remarks in “evangelical Christian” biblical parlance, was to attempt to appeal to Greg Letiecq’s conscience in a language and manner he predictably would be inclined to understand. As I thought more about it, it occurred to me that his “brief moment of rationality” was an opportunity. An opportunity to ignite more moments of rationality on his part.
All in all, my post was a desire to reach out to him and invite him to embrace a more creative, compassionate, merciful, and graceful way of engaging the “immigration issue” and the immigrating people who have been politically objectified as a result of it, and to consider being part of the incredible vision of being part of building a “State of Oneness” where common humanity is the foundation, and (as I’ve stated before) where compassion, mercy, and grace FOR ALL are the sole rule of law.
When it comes to folks like Greg Letiecq — whom many might despise or consider an enemy — we have choices: (1) villify him, or (2) love him (an “enemy”) by inviting him to more ethical alternatives to the course he has chosen where this “issue” is concerned.
The choice is ours. We’ll either be combative, or be peacemakers. We’ll either ridicule Greg Letiecq, or see him as we wish him to see others: as human. We’ll either behave toward him the way we wish he would behave toward us, or we won’t.
At the end of the day, it’s about stepping it up. Not for the sake of competition, but for the sake of setting an example and seeking the better way.
And I, for one, beleive we can do that. And successfully.
TH,
Hello! I’ve been here, and so has Red Dawn. Where have you been? I gave up on bvbl months ago. Glad you remembered my name I got called out the other night for not always posting on bvbl with Chris. I like Lafayette better than Chris for a name.
Michael,
Red Dawn and Dolph can NOT provide that proof your looking for. The Patriot said he attended Greg’s church, and Greg said this too. Yet, when The Patriot was asked about this by Loudoun. He refused to answer. Yet he always attempted to demand an answer. The Patriot is just a figment of some’s imagination.
Censored,
Excellent recolection of The Patriot. He dropped off bvbl too, at least as The Patriot. I have a list of those MIA from bvbl, and the funny thing is slowly but surely some are crawling out of the cave.
Apology accepted. I don’t want to challenge education backgrounds only the concept that if people oppose you, (i.e oppose “illegal” immigration), some people think maliciously justified to make intolerant comments and make irrational and bigoted comments toward those they oppose, assuming they must not as ‘educated” or “informed” as they believe themselves to be.
Disrespect, intolerance, bigotry and malice is the usual response I get from people who allow their emotions to control their brains.
Good to see you again Lafayette, thanks for providing better clarification on who Greg’s friends are and more facts to ponder. I don’t need proof, it seems others are craving it for negative reasons however. Personally I’ve seen many people refuse to answer for many reasons other than just hiding something.
I’ve almost always liked your posts on BVBL, respectful and factual. I hope you will make some good ones here that will have a positve impact on the more radical members of this site.
Michael,
I think you should prove to us The Patriot is real. What factual information do have regarding who the real he/she/it Patriot is?
Michael,
Sorry, for jumping the gun on you, there. It must have been the Lafayette in me coming out.
Yes, many don’t answer questions and understandably so. However, it’s just odd The Patriot would continue to call those out that didn’t answer his questions.
I will certainly try to remain respectful. That and name calling is a huge part of what made me decide to leave bvbl. Oh, and having a few comments delted all together. Kind of hard to believe this would happen to two of the three top posters. I mean mine and Dolph’s comments have been deleted. I have them, and have posted them here. For folks to read with their own two eyes.
DiversityGal, I also forgot to mention, too many links in your posts, like here on anti-bvbl, can cause your post to enter the spam filter, and will not come out unless the moderator allows it and reviews it, also any language used that hits a filter set to prevent unlawful or potentially slanderous language, can also be automatically fitered and will look like your posts have disappeared. They can also disappear if you type too fast (and I do). Thankfully there is no filter for poor spelling and lack of word processor usage, as I use neither on blogs.
Send a personal emial to Greg and ask him if you are banned, he will probably tell you the truth. If you have not been offensive or malicious to anyone, I doubt he willbann you, as he has not banned anyone I have read about in the past who is not massively insulting to everyone else on the blog, just like here.
I suspect the truth is in the details, not the assumptions and pre-concieved suspicions some have recommended to you. I do not know you personal case on BVBL because I rarely post there anymore because I mainly agree with the main theme I read there, except the radical and intolerat wacko’s (an most of you already know them), just like I know them here.
Personally I’m thankful both blogs exist (both BVBL and anti-bvbl) because if you read both you find the real truth in the middle. The most UNBIASED blog I know of on this “illegal” immigration issue is AWCheney’s.
Michael,
You’ve given Diversity Gal good advice regarding bvbl. I would be willing to bet it was be she had an opinion that did NOT fall in to line with the beliefs of bvbl. There wasn’t anything offensive,etc. in my posts that were deleted.
I would never get anything posted anywhere if it boiled down to my spelling or lack there of should I say.
Yes, I agree that is odd behavior for the Patriot I knew. No offense taken. I keep my cool here with almost everyone I talk to, unless they are targeting me personally without cause or justification, and I have not been offended by anything you’ve said to me now or in the past that I can remember. I only know 4 people on this blog that routinely offend and disrespect. I knew 3 on BVBL that routinely did the same. Everyone else just occasionally “lost it”, when they were angry about something. We all are entitled to rare bouts of that, and the forgiveness of others for the occassional slip into “reactionary commenting”.
Juturna did that today and much to the betterment of his character, apologized. My respect for him equally increased.
Again good to see you here.
Very good post Robb Pearson. Now we just have to deal with why we have “illegal” immiraion law and why we have “legal” immigration law and use the same rationale you stated for how we treat everyone else protected by those laws.
The greater good is the side that protects and supports the greater good (the majority harmed) and the greater impact on everyone, not just a few, who by their “illegal” immigration harm far many more, than the “legal” system harms them.
This is the only area where we appear to disagree, on who is harmed most and who deserves the greater Christian or Secular legal justice.
It is my belief and research that “illegal” immigration does far more harm than good, and that to allow it to continue, causes far more harm to the nation, financially, legally and politically, than any good it does for a few individuals. Controlled “legal” immigration is the only right and moral way to deal with this issue. I use history as a moral and ethical guide for that assessment and other events in the rest of the world to show why it hurts more humanity fair more than help it overall.
Of course that concept can be twisted anyway people want to twist it, but historical and world events don’t lie like people do.
Until people can factually show me that “illegal” immigration does far more good for the majority, than the harm it does for the MAJORITY (i.e the Democracy), then I will change that opinion.
Socialism, Facism and AUTOCRACY by the way is when the MINORITY take over your legal, social and national political system and impose their brand of HARM on the majority. That is the type of political system the worst of world history has used in the past and present (criminal political infrastructure for example) and the type of political system used by other nation’s where the MINORITY rule the land and oppress all others.
Historically I have seen evidence that “illegal” immigrants have always sided and politically manipulated the system based on their MINORITY beliefs, rather than MAJORITY beliefs, often using ethnic-centric political behavior and even criminal political behavior (fixed elections, bought off police, bought off politicians, etc) to justifiy that politcal alignment, and factional alignment for only their own ethnic, racial or religious group benefit. There is much evidence of the other side of “humanity” in the rest of the world and in history to offset what I perceive is your justification for siding with “illegal” sympathizers, I understand from your previous comments your desire and belief that only the good side of humanity exists in “illegals” and for that matter all of humanity. I would like to take that belief and “integrate” all of humanity too, by assuming a naive belief that ALL people are honest, deserving and non-harmful to others, but that is an extremely naive and is a limited view of the “real facts” about historical “humanity bahavior” in the world. I base this view of the world on my personal experience and research. The law is what separates that good from bad behavior and why there is a huge difference in the way you need to treat people who engage in “illegal” and “legal” behavior.
Robb,
I just looked to see if your post was there yet, how shocked I was to find that your comment was still unapproved by Greg.
I do agree with your premise of treating others they way we would like to be treated. But I see this undisguised disgust and villification of Latino’s and I find myself unable to reach out with love to these nameless and faceless “bloggers”. I try to ask people, what would you do if YOU were in the same situtation, children hungry with no future, would you risk everything for a better life? But there is a part of me that is frustrated and angry at the willingness of people to take the “easy” road and suggest that if we just scapegoat a particular segment of our society we will be “better” off. I post threads in hopes of sharing the history of our immigration policies ,and yet, most people are simply disinterested to learn about our own unpleasant past and how it is repeated itself today. How do we move foward Robb, I am at a loss?
Michael,
You said “I use history as a moral and ethical guide for that assessment and other events in the rest of the world to show why it hurts more humanity fair more than help it overall.
Of course that concept can be twisted anyway people want to twist it, but historical and world events don’t lie like people do.”
I posted two threads about the history of immigration and you were oddly silent. I agree, history doesn’t lie. So what are your thoughts on the KKK and the eugenics movement having such undue influence on our first quota immigration restriction in the Johnson Reed act of 1924 ? How are the arguments in 1924 any different than the arguments of 2008?
Hello MIchael. Good to see you as well. I do not know the answer to your question. I am sorry.
Michael, I don’t think you know that many of the people here on anti are people who ‘disappeared’ from bvbl. The blog owner made it happen. You don’t disagree with him in principle, therefore you have not been made to vaporize.
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Hi TH, How have you been? So good to see you.
I wish NOVA Scout would find his way over here also.
“Until people can factually show me that “illegal” immigration does far more good for the majority, than the harm it does for the MAJORITY (i.e the Democracy), then I will change that opinion.”
Michael, ILLEGAL immigration does NOT do more good than harm, IMHO. That’s why we need to FIX THE SYSTEM. Until we do, the hurt, anger and fear will continue to grow.
Michael, you stated:
Perhaps not, though the factual accuracy of historical and world events depends greatly on the fallible people who record and report those events.
Michael, you also stated:
You obviously missed one of the core points of the post I made. Read my post once more and re-read the paragraph that starts with “It was that “kingdom of God”, or a new state . . .” There is where I advanced the point of the supremacy of “natural law” over man-made law.
Michael, you also stated:
You make a valid political point regarding the prevalence of majority rule in democratic societies. However, majority rule must not exist to the detriment of the minority. That has been a fundamental hallmark of America’s political foundations from the very beginning (in fact the Constitutional Convention debates in 1787 made the theme of minority protection against a potentially oppressive majority of prime importance, which is why the “Great Compromise” resulted in the creation of a Senate with equal representation for each State regardless of its size). Otherwise, according to your perspective, the Civil Rights movement of the 1960’s, and the equality laws that resulted, represent an oppression of the “majority”. You couldn’t be more wrong.
On this point, Thomas Jefferson, in his first Inaugural Address in 1801, imparted the following wisdom:
The point: the majority is only right (and rightful) when it does not oppress a minority.
Michael, you also stated:
Again you display a peculiar propensity for failing to understand my points.
The “good side” of humanity isn’t somehow tangibly located within any specific category of people. Human goodness is something all people have opportunity to choose to express. The Oneness that I pursue isn’t attached to any “naive belief” that all people are honest, nor is it accompanied by a “limited view” of humanity’s destructive behavior. Quite the contrary. The reason I pursue Oneness is exactly because of the very fact that people aren’t honest and that destructive behavior pervades the world. My goal in pursuing Oneness is to invite people to more creative and harmony-building alternatives to such destructive behavior.
Michael, you also stated:
You obviously missed my points about mercy, compassion, and grace. I once again refer you to my prior post where I advanced the point of the supremacy of “natural law” over man-made law.
Elena, you stated:
All you can do, Elena, is boldly and steadfastly, yet humbly, invite others to alternative paths of behavior and more creative and compassionate insights. It is up to them to accept or reject. Most of the time, at least for now, such invitation is likely to be rejected. And so in such a predicament what you and I and so many others must continue to do is (1) shake the dust off your feet in the face of discouragement, and (2) continue moving forward joyfully, leading by example as unstoppably vocal and visible advocates to what is right, to what is moral, and to what is humanly ethical. Provided, however, that we are attached to a powerful vision and a motivating human cause.
Robb,
Great words of encouragment. I honestly do try to have compassion for people on the other side. Underneath it all, these people are afraid, if I believed all the propoganda and lies, I would terrified also.
Taking a mere assumption that an individual is posting under multiple pseudonyms (such as Greg) and promoting it as fact is hardly indicative of the promotion of fact and reason. It’s rather like saying that many of the commenters on this site are interchangeable…and equally unfair. FACTS are not simply pulled out of the air.
You want facts, I’ve been putting together facts for a while now…and few people seem to be interested. For EVERY hit that I have had at my site I have slaved over a MINIMUM of one hour of research, and the majority of posts have required a straight 24 hours of intense concentration before I publish, which is the single greatest difficulty that I have had in pushing out regular posts. Most people don’t seem to be interested in facts…just their own opinion.
I apologize for my presumption here, but I have grown rather discouraged in my search for the truth about the issue which seems to have divided us all so terribly. Threads like this, which have nothing to do with fact, put me just a hair’s-breadth away from hitting that “delete blog” button at my own site. You may believe that Greg is “talking to himself,” but I most certainly am…and I just don’t feel up to it anymore.
If you let it this can almost turn into a full-time job without the full-time pay of course. There are many popular blogs out there that don’t necessarily generate the discussion but do have good traffic. I’m not sure why that happens. If your traffic is increasing monthly, and it appears as if more people are commenting on more recent threads than earlier threads then I would view that as a success.
My latest post (and one of those arduously researched ones), The Merida Initiative, has had 29 HITS, not comments, since I published it the morning of the 18th (I’ve been waiting to see if it got any traction). People just aren’t interested in how they are being sold out, I guess. I don’t care if my blog is “popular,” Alanna…I just wish that people WERE actually more interested in the facts.
But, seriously, thanks for caring.
AWCheney, you have to allow the users to generate the content as much as possible. There is room for you in the blogosphere, but in order to get others to post, you have to allow for their opinion to be part of the story you are telling. In fact, you have to encourage it and not look down on it. Otherwise, people will not participate.
On this issue, there is more opinion out there than fact because the debate is driven by people who don’t have a lot of facts to go on, and they reject any research that is done without the preordained conclusion that immigration is bad for America.
So you have the FAIR people and their many media outlets with their opinion backed by what the say are “facts,” and a lot of people with gut reactions based on human experience, and then there are the social scientists and demographers who try to get a word in edgewise but few are interested in the mainstream media. That’s why blogs have got to lead the way.
AWCheney,
Your blog is very well researched. I think though your tlow raffic is because most people want to do a drive-by rather than stick around and invest the time it takes to dive deeply into a subject. A lot also has to with interest.
I enjoyed your black water piece. I wish you would do some ‘chapters’ on the history of immigration in this county going back to the early 1800s to the present. I think much of what people think they know about it is just glamorized ‘what we think we want to know.’ I would also be interested in hearing about your memories of being an immigrant as a young child….first hand account, no facts, just childhood impressions.
Just my 2 cents–Dolph
Dolph, if I got into my memories of being “an immigrant as a young child” I’d be accused of self-aggrandizement, and very possibly lying. The problem is, my parents did EVERYTHING the right way before coming here legally (learning the language, learning a skill before coming, getting a sponsor, etc.), and they did not come from families with money, and they came here from a war-ravaged country. People really aren’t interested in hearing about THAT either.
“…but in order to get others to post, you have to allow for their opinion to be part of the story you are telling. In fact, you have to encourage it and not look down on it.”
NO comments are looked down upon, but I happen to be one of the few blogs that actually has rules of decorum. Just because I won’t allow a “flame war” to break out on my blog, or allow someone to PERPETUALLY break the rules, doesn’t mean that I look down on any comments. My husband already criticized me for allowing the ONE person that has been banned to get away with violations as long as I did.
Perhaps the problem is that our society has become a place where rules have become meaningless because they are enforced, and more often NOT enforced, arbitrarily. The attitude seems to be, “As long as you can get away with it…GO FOR IT!” Well, that’s NOT the attitude with which I grew up, and it’s not the example that I would want to set for my children, or anybody else’s!
I think that it is not about self-aggrandizement but about documenting the immigrant experience. I think the problem we have is that we just hear the “good’ stories and not what it take to immigrate successfully. Your parents came here legally but I am pretty sure that despite doing everything the right way not everything was easy. First immigrants with the right skills tend to assimilate faster. I would like to hear about your experience with language. You said you learn English quickly. How about your parents speaking German between themselves? Did they forget everything about the old country? Did they keep some traditions? Did they keep some connections? Dis they travel back? etc.
I think that most people simplify the immigration process but I am pretty sure that it was a journey for your parents. Even people like Von Braun who came from Germany with great skills had problems breaking through the business. We hear about his contributions to space engineering but for a while they couldn’t get any contracts.
No, it wasn’t easy for them…but nothing worthwhile ever is, nor is it meant to be. Perhaps THAT is why they appreciated this country more than the illegal immigrants of today! I seriously doubt that anyone is actually interested in the truth if it flies in the face of their already formulated opinion.
Von Braun’s difficulties largely stemmed from his history as a NAZI who had a great deal to do with the German rocket program that successfully decimated large areas in England, particularly London. Given that some German industrialists wound up on trial for war crimes after the war for doing exactly what Von Braun (and other scientists who had been expatriated to the U.S. after the war) had done, is it really surprising that he (and they) had problems?
Both my parents spoke German at home unless we had English-speaking guests, which was often, and I have remained bi-lingual to this day. Also, if my parents had less difficulty assimilating than the illegal immigrants, and their children, of today it has far more to do with the fact that they didn’t come to this country with the idea that it owed them anything (despite the fact that their city, Bremen, was primarily destroyed by American, daylight bombing raids)…and they prepared accordingly. In general, the attitudes and expectations exhibited by those who come to this country legally v. those who enter illegally (regardless if they eventually receive dispensations, such as amnesty) are as different as night and day. THAT is not something which is never considered in the “immigration” debate, and THAT is why so many actual immigrants resent the use of the word “immigrant” to describe anyone who comes to this country illegally. They are not immigrants…they are illegal aliens.
Correction: …which is EVER considered…
AWCheney,
As much as I hate to post on this blog, I will have to agree with you. I just cruised over today for the first time since I can remember when. I saw your post about your blog. I do not blog as much as I use to. I have a couple I post to frequently, but i have cut way back.
I believe that when we put consequences for one’s actions back into play, we will solve a great deal of problems that we face. I know this is not a popular point to make here, but ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. When one rule is overlooked, how easy is it to allow another to be overlooked. Before you know it, you have the entire law overlooked.
One of the most important things we can do as a nation is stand up for America and remove the ILLEGAL aliens that are not helping the progress of America. Sure they pick a few crops, but this will be done by Americans once they are cut off of welfare.
We have to take away the incentives to be here and people will self deport. Have consequences for their actions come into play IMMEDIATELY and you will see a different America.
I am all for LEGAL immigration. Amnesty is rewarding bad behavior and will not solve the problem we have. This was done in the 80’s and look what it got us.
____________________________
I have purused a couple of threads here and it seems to me that many here are more worried about what the dark screen and Greg are doing. This is one of the reasons I left this blog. I encourged others to move on past what he is doing and look for solid solutions to the problems we all face with ILLEGAL aliens. I see that has not changed one bit. Someone types they believe monticup is Greg and next thing you know, Greg has many “voices” in his head. I do not personally know Greg. I can say this, many of you look to call people out instaed of trying to provide solutions. I appreciated what Robb Pearson had to say:
That is the type of person I would hope folks on this blog and the other would strive to be.
____________________________________________
LOL I am in moderation
Thanks AWCheney for sharing that story with us!
I would imagine that the immigrants coming from East Germany would have had a far different experience than those coming from West Germany. The family I knew had escaped from East Germany with a year old infant in their arms. They had to dodge a few bullets and swim in a river to escape. I doubt they were very prepared. They were lucky to be alive.
I don’t know how they eventually got to America. I guess they hit an emabassy somewhere in Europe and applied for political assylum.
AWC, How long did your parents plan in advance? I remember some stories from my parents about the war. My father served as a military interpreter during part of the war. They said many of the young German POWs held at Newport News tried to stay in the United States. I don’t know what the outcome of that was. I believe they were sent back after the war.
I think different immigrant experiences happen at different times. Not everyone has the same opportunities. I try to judge based on behavior.
AW Cheney, it was very interesting hearing about your parents. But it worried me when you said your parents did “EVERYTHING right” before coming, and gave your list, because it would seem to imply that the country’s greatest wave of immigrants (in the 19th century and early 20th century) must have done something wrong if millions came without any knowledge of English or as very basic laborers without special skills. I am not disputing for a second your pride in your parents, it’s laudable, but I don’t believe that the vast majority of immigrants to this country were any less honorable despite the fact they did nothing like what your parents did in advance preparation. I also don’t think other post-World War II immigrants, such as those who came straight from the camps, were any less honorable if they arrived without English skills. I guess I don’t see how there is only one “right way.” I really do believe in Emma Lazarus.
In addition, you seem to define illegal aliens in terms of entering illegally. But nearly 45 percent (Pew) of people who are not currently in legal immigration status did enter legally. What they haven’t done is stayed legally once their work, student, or visitor’s visa expired or their applications for asylum or similar status were turned down, etc. etc.
Finally, about your blog. I think it is great how you do lots of research on your posts. Citation is something I always appreciate. However I am kind of old-fashioned about the Net. Ever since I started being in Net communities (originally Usenet) in 1993, I have really supported having the freest communication possible. Your blog doesn’t just have a general rule of civility, an honor system for adults, you have very elaborate rules, as if for children. You also appear to require the language of children. That is 100 percent your right, it’s your blog, but it is also very much a schoolmarm-with-ruler-in-hand approach. I think a slightly looser approach, ala Anti, may be more welcoming, but I may be totally wrong. I would also always put your URL out there more!
I hope you continue the blog and continue to post here as well.
Welcome Back Medic.
I’m not sure why you ended up in moderation. I did a little research and noticed that you had not posted since April 29th but neither your screen name or ipaddress had changed so I don’t have an explanation. Just know that it was not intentional.
Well, Leila, from what I’ve seen it is generally children who are unable to refrain from using profanity or attacking each other just because they happen to think differently. Oh, that’s right…it happens on the blogs all the time. Well, it’s not going to happen on any blog that I have. I’ll delete the blog first!
I’m surprised that you believe that an intelligent adult is incapable of rising above that juvenile behavior. If I remember correctly, you never indulged in it yourself, even when you got passionate and angered others who often DID engage in juvenile behavior. I’m rather surprised that you support that.
I am not surprised that Medic is in moderation. I think he/she should be. I have read his/her sexist comments in the other blog(women on horses for example) but the worst one was about not feeling bad about hurting Hispanic kids in the supermarket just because they were not careful for his standards. It is not the Medic we knew here, It seems that once he/she went to the other side, he. she showed her/his right colors (very dark colors)
Here is what Medic wrote about the police officers in the other blog:
“2 of these officers found their way through the townhouse section of Westgate a few months ago. Good looking horses and the animals weren’t bad either.”
He/she even admitted that what he/she wrote was OK:
“HMMMMM I typed that out didn’t I. Sometimes my fingers get a mind of their own, maybe I can get special assistance because of it, oh wait I am not ILLEGAL so I can’t qualify for any help what so ever.”
AW Cheney, I guess I didn’t express myself clearly enough. It is interesting, though, that that was the only part of the comment you chose to respond to.
Sorry if the following is long.
In the comment above I stated my support for *encouraging* civility on blogs ala Anti’s provisions. That is absolutely true.
I try to keep things on an adult level myself, as you noted. I would find it annoying and distracting if people’s posts were riddled with profanity. I also object to profanity and vulgar insults directed at an individual, as in you *&^%ing so and so. However if someone wanted to call an argument BS, for example, or say WTF, I wouldn’t care. If I recall correctly you even ban abbreviations or euphemisms for adult language. (Yes adult. Juveniles didn’t invent the profanities in English, almost all of which date back to Anglo-Saxon times and are some of our oldest words, before English was transformed by Norman French). I really love English by the way. In truth, I wince a lot more about other common butcherings of the language than about profanity. If Anti were MY blog, I would put people in moderation for, among other things, adding apostrophes to plurals like “illegal’s” or “Latino’s” until they stopped the madness!!! Ok…kidding…..sort of.
To go further, I would not have a problem if someone used a profanity (or an obvious disguised one) for select emphasis from time to time.
It just doesn’t trouble me. Occasional use to punctuate something or to be ribaldly colloquial doesn’t worry me. I had a boss who liked on occasion to use the military obscenity “clusterf*&^.” It’s a very expressive, very cogent term for particular situations. It is cousin to another military profanity, SNAFU, which is equally vulgar although clusterf*&^ has some really intriguing allusions to officer insignia going for it. It didn’t bother me when he used it. We were all adults at work and nobody’s grandmother or kid was present.
The issue of language that disturbs me the most (and frankly I can’t remember if on BVBL you bothered to call anyone out on this or not) is language that dehumanizes people. The frequent references to illegal immigrants “breeding,” that kind of thing. Every reference to human beings as cockroaches, etc. etc. is where I draw the line. But, like the blog mistresses here, I wouldn’t censor them, I would call them out and allow the comment to remain so that people could see the naked bigotry.
All this only came up because you addressed the issue of traffic on your blog. I visited your blog virtually the day it started, very curious to see what you were going to do. I noted your very elaborate rules section, complete with footnotes. I thought it spoke volumes about other of your intentions as blog mistress and gave an impression, perhaps unfairly, that you would be quite the policeman for everything, not just profanity. At the same time that your rules were so detailed as to be footnoted, in other ways they were also unusually sweeping and open-ended. However, I kept my opinions to myself and only brought them up now because you mentioned your frustrations with your lack of traffic.
You know I still say you should get your URL out there more. Unfortunately not everyone knows that when a blog commenter’s name is underlined, the way yours is, that it means it is a link to a Web site.
Leila, I told everyone from the outset precisely what kind of environment I was going to provide, and I’ve kept my word. What I see in your comment is very much like the prevalent attitude in society today…enforce the rules arbitrarily and/or selectively. People are treating the law the same way. Yes, I have rules…but nothing that a person of remote intelligence could not follow. People break the rules (and laws) because nobody seems to care…it so happens that I do.
AWC, You are a little confusing here. Where exactly have I said anything about your not warning people? I remember you warning people on BVBL when you first hatched the idea of a blog. You were absolutely explicit and like I said, I visited early and saw your rules. I have also already said it was absolutely your right. It’s your blog. Please show where I have suggested otherwise.
Secondly, where have I advocated any selective or arbitrary enforcement on your part of your rules? It’s your blog, your rules. Trust me, I don’t expect you to do anything but enforce them nor have I advocated that. The rules are something you devised. I was only disagreeing with the nature of them, not whether or not you had the right to devise them, enforce them, gold plate them, or anything else. I find it highly doubtful that I could not follow your rules, should I have chosen to do so. Although I would disagree that intelligence, remote or otherwise, comes into play much in rule following. Some of the most intelligent people I know of aren’t much when it comes to rule following, while some of the dullest people are stand outs. Go figure.
I don’t know what to make of the fact that you appear to need to tie a discussion of rules on a bleedin’ Net blog to laws in society. I think it’s both a stretch and a cheap shot considering how polite my discourse has been with you, but that’s fine. In truth though, selective enforcement of rules/laws is at the soul of the American legal system. It’s called prosecutorial discretion among other things. It’s also enshrined in our system of plea bargaining, in day to day police work, etc. In addition, American states and local jurisdictions have a mass of laws on their books that would be either unenforceable in any practical sense or are just plain out of step with reality. However since your blog is entirely your own baby, you can model yourself on legal reality or be strict in some kind of ideal form. Your choice, and I never said otherwise. Show me where I did.
It’s good that you care so deeply about your own rules since why go to all the trouble to devise rules (with footnotes!) if you wouldn’t care? That would be kind of silly.
I have already complimented you on the careful work you do on your blog. We just have a disagreement about Net fora, but not ONCE have I suggested that it wasn’t your party to invite or tolerate whom you wish. It’s a blog for pity’s sake. If I started a blog, I might have other sorts of rules. For example, I might claim the right to correct all typos and all the inveterate typo-making people out there could bitch about me all they wanted, but in the end they would fall victim to my virtual red pencil. So exciting.
As they used to say in a decade you may or may not remember, “different strokes…”
I just published another post which might be of interest…”The City of Lost Girls: Femicide in Latin America.” Everything in it is highly researched and the facts are properly attributed. What I found was an overwhelming number of examples of to what a culture based upon the arbitrary enforcement of law can lead us.
Medic,
I find it interesting that you believe Robb Pearson is one we should all emulate. I would agree with you. What are your thoughts on his complete turn around regarding illegal immigration and the villification of hispanics?
TH,
First off, you can not OBVIOUSLY recognize sarcasm. Without placing a tongue in cheek next to it, I guess it can be misunderstood. No one else saw it for anymore than it was, sarcasm.
Elena,
You shouldn’t find it interesting at all Elena. If you were to meet me in person, as a few on this and the other blog have, you would realize I am not a mean spirited person. I am passionate about the ILLEGAL alien issue, because it had directly affected my life when my family was overseas and I was here. We were trying to do it the right way and it took time. I just feel that EVERYONE should do it the right way and no one gets a free pass. The free pass will only encourage more to try the same. This includes all that overstay visas and such. I do not see any difference in ILLEGAL whether it is overstaying a visa or sneaking across the border. Either way, we can not absorb all of these people into our society. This is why we have quotas on visas. We do not have the infrastructure in place to take all of the ILLEGAL aliens at once.
I am not sure what to think of Greg. Maybe he has seen something that we may never know about. Just the same, I do not think anyone should be run down because of their beliefs or what they post as freedom of speech.
TH,
BTW, I am male so he/she won’t be needed. (c:
I am a male too and I consider your comments charged with a lot of sexism and not sarcasm. The other side allow you to be part of that “old boy group” that can make jokes about women without thinking. I won’t use the the he/she with you that would be terribly bad for a man so secure of himself that needs to put women down to affirm his opinions.
I also have to say Medic that your comments were extremely offensive. I would expect more from someone who espouses that you are not a mean spririted person.
On another note Medic,
I agree that we should have a system of fairness, and it isn’t fair. People are waiting decades to come into this country and this is just plain crazy.
TH,
Get over yourself. It was a joke, and it was in bad taste. I am sure you have NEVER said anything at ANY moment that was in bad taste. Get off your high horse and get over it.
Elena,
I am not mean spirited, but like I am sure you have in the past, said some things that I am not particularly proud of. This could be one of those moments. SHHEESSHH!!
I do not think waiting decades if you have nothing to offer the country is too long at all. If you can offer something that enhances the country, then you should be here right away. If you are coming here to pick lettuce, then we do not need you. We have enough people on welfare that can do that job. Once people get hungry enough, they will do ANYTHING to be able to eat. As long as we have a welfare state in place, there are no consequences for you to stay on it. The consequence should be, you are entitled to this assistance for a period of 5 years max. After your 5 years have been used up, you no longer qualify for assistance. IMHO, it would be a good idea to “bank” that five years in case you need it in an emergency. There would be consequences for your actions of trying to stay on welfare and you will be forced to look for a way to support yourself instead of me doing it through taxes. taxes that are being raised continuously by the democrats.
Medic,
Foot in mouth explanation accepted
What make a person worthwhile to a society Medic? When my greatgrandparents came here, through Ellis Island, all they had was their desire to work hard and make a life for their family. My great grandfather was a beer brewer, not necessarily a “skilled” man by most standards.
So, are you suggesting that we require single moms, which I believe are the majority of welfare recipients, to pick lettuce? We have a welfare to work program, but what is suppose to be happening is job training and education, so that people can GAIN skills to be in the workforce and out of welfare. Oh, and as far as I can tell, our taxes were raised by REPUBLICANS in PWC, and to pay for what, an almost 7 MILLION dollar program that is a complete waste of my money.