AntiBVBL

AntiBVBL is a forum for people to exchange ideas without censorship. This was necessary because BVBL only allowed comments that praised or agreed with the GregNCorey Show.

Although AntiBVBL was made necessary by BVBL, I hope it will continue long after Corey Stewart has resigned or decided not to run for reelection, and long after Greg Letiecq has moved on to poison some other unsuspecting town or county.

It provides a great public service for citizens to communicate with government employees and elected officials, or communicate TO them in the course of hashing out issues amongst themselves.

Another great aspect of the blog is the examples of civic participation set by Alanna and Elena, as well as posters like Katherine and Chris who use their real names. These are people who don’t mind being held accountable for what they say on line, but also are known to volunteer their time in real life to make this community a better place to live.

Thanks ladies. I hope you think it’s worth the effort. We certainly do.

Well said, I couldn’t have said it better. We are the antithesis of the other blog. County politics should not be driven by bloggers and extremists. What we witnessed was a divisive policy with devastating effects both socially & economically. The most discouraging aspect of this experience was that we allowed ourselves to succumb to our worst fears and not our best hopes for the future.

And I agree with Hilda Barg that we must strive to find a method whereby we can make our County a better place to live.

‘a moderate voice in the immigration debate opposed to the vitriol anti-immigrant rhetoric that has been so prevalent’…
The world needs more Anti-BVBLs – well done to Alanna, Elena and all the others who remind everybody that decency and tolerance are the way forward; not ignorance and bigotry.

Your opening paragraph states “We are a moderate voice in the immigration debate opposed to the vitriol anti-immigrant rhetoric that has been so prevalent in our community.” so why is it that you constantly refer to ‘anti-immigrant’ when you know full well that the debate is over illegal-immigrants? Nothing in PWC policy or actions is anti-immigrant, and that is a fact that you can’t deny for the lawsuits would be in the thousands from the likes of the ACLU and other left wing groups. Prove me wrong! If you want credibility, then stay with the subject, and stop interjecting your own propaganda. This is the same tactic you accuse BVBL of.

SA, I use “anti-immigrant” because the original title of the resolution was the “immigration resolution.” The original form of that policy targeted all immigrants and encouraged racial profiling.

I contend that having the remainder of the policy on the books encourages extremists to harass ESOL and service workers who are doing their best to serve the public and protect human rights. Stewart and Stirrup don’t seem to mind that their county employees are taking the brunt of this policy. These employees are not people in charge of policy–they are workers. One on hand, the BOCS supports housing for employees (which I commend and actively encourage more of). On the other hand, they don’t mind allowing groups like HSM to chase these same people out of the county because of conflicting political beliefs and differences.

This is true of the general public as well. People of color, no matter what their origin, have been thrown into a feud they need never have been. In the meantime, other groups are being targeted as well—people of different religions, sexual preferences, and abilities. Anger begets anger when it is encouraged from the top down. Hurt begets hurt, division begets division, hatred begets hatred. How could we have allowed a small group of people perpetrate this in our communities?

I would like to see the ACLU take on PWC if for no other reason than we need a group to help promote justice here. Left wing, right wing, it doesn’t matter because we have all been denied justice and peace through this policy, the “immigration resolution.” We cannot afford to foot the bill to rectify this. I’d encourage any group with clout to take this on once again and protect us. When one member of our society is discriminated against, we all are.

WHWN, thank you for the support. And of course, thank you to all the brave people who have come out to say, “We will not put up with bullying in this county. We expect more from our government.”

You could not have possibly packed one more tidbit of misinformation in that paragraph…..congratulations!

A moderate voice? How about extreme (I’m talking belief in UFOs) left-wing extremists. Designated a “nativistgroup”. Yeah, by who? I’ve seen more hate in this blog than the other one, that’s for sure.

That’s right, extreme left-wing extremists. You’ll find them in the department of redundancy department.

the way KG and crowd put it we are living in a police state or something. Honestly I think I’ve never been more comfortable in this county than before. I would much rather have illegal immigrants running for the border than have to look over my shoulder when I leave the home.

SA, assuming you are right and the debate is only about illegal immigrants, it is still clear that the resolution as originally designed would lead people in legal status of the same background to expect harassment.

Also FAIR as an architect of the plan is explicit about its desire to put new and substantial limits on all immigration to this country. Bed, fleas, you know the expression.

BVBL isn’t a blog as much as one man’s bullhorn for inciting bigotry cloaked under ‘the rule of law’. If people could post different opinions for the sake of debate, it might be a different story.

By contrast, this blog protects freedom of speech. The blog topics look like they are meant to provoke debate. And the admins promote respect for other posters, not compliance with political dogma.

Sometimes people agree with me, sometimes they disagree. Sometimes I have lots of friends, sometimes I’m standing by myself.

The point is that we have a space to disagree here.

This issue probably more than any other is dividing Republicans, somehow we have to find a way to unite over this issuue; if we continue to squable amongst ourselves it demonstrates a weakness in the party.

I expected the usual crew to come here and mau-mau the blog owner over defining her own blog. How predictable.

Now let’s see, Chris is now a leftist, Anti is leftist, MWB is leftist. Everyone is leftist. Did I leave out anyone? Any group? Everyone who doesn’t spout the bvbl/hsm party line is leftist I think just about sums it up.

Let me out on my best ‘Patriot’ voice and start screeching: ” _______(insert a word like leftist, liberal, etc.) Illegal alien apologist” at myself.

Now, I do NOT support illegal immigration, and I’m leftist. OMG!!

AntiBVBL offered everyone a chance to counter not just HSM and Greg Letiecq but also the influence of a national lobbying firm, FAIR, which had no business dictating our county’s social and economic policy. (And, SA, FAIR is not just interested in stopping illegal immigration but legal immigration as well.) It’s unfortunate that policy was dictated by out-of-state FAIR-generated emails instead of actual support from the majority of PWC citizens but hopefully that can be rectified.

I have to say that I’m impressed with what citizens from many backgrounds, political views, and interests can do when push comes to shove. Congrats, people, on getting some needed changes made to the Immigration resolution. And thanks, Alanna and Elena, for taking the time from your busy schedules to make this commitment.

You’re in good company Chris, apparently Covington & Nohe are being vilified as well. By the way… loved you in the flick.

Covington, too? How so? I’m proud he is listening!! That’s the sign of a real leader—the willingness to listen and consider.

Elvis, when county employees are harassed because of their job demands, you probably should notice something is very wrong. It’s not just Chief Deane, either.

kgotthardt, 8. August 2008, 8:15 said: “I use “anti-immigrant” because the original title of the resolution was the “immigration resolution.”

WRONG! This is an example of revisionist history. The resolution was not called the “immigration resolution” by its founder, Supervisor Stirrup. I suggest you listen to the PWC BOCS audio archives, http://oitmedia.pwcgov.org:81/bocsmeetings/2007/ June 26,2007, @ 1:46:10 which is when Stirrup introduces the resolution. He indicates it is a “first step toward addressing the problem of ILLEGAL immigration in the county,” and “WITH THE RESOLUTION I’M GOING TO INTRODUCE, I BELIEVE WE ARE GOING TO REAFFIRM OUR COMMITTMENT TO THE RULE OF LAW,” and later “that indeed Prince William is closed to ILLEGAL immigration.” At no time does Stirrup refer to it as the “immigration resolution’.

SORRY, The FACTS don’t support your claim.

Pax to you too. Which one of the minions are you? And what was the ‘resolution’ called to the public after July 10, 2007, until the powers that be decided it needed a more politically correct name? I have a copy in my files, un-altered, where it is called the Immigration Resolution.

Revisionist history? Your red is showing. There goes another buzz word. Straight out of the far right glossary of names to call things you don’t like.

It is too late to attempt to clean up what was done in this county. It is too late to try to save reputations now.

Finally, who gives a rat’s ass what Stirrup called it. Mr. Duecaster might take issue with calling Stirrup its founder. Fess up. Stirrup was just the talking head for this bad, now neutered, resolution.

page 5 http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/006888.pdf

Here’s one reference to the original document. The original doc appears on Anti.

Junkyard dog, “Immigration Resolution” was exactly what it was called on the county’s website until the recent clean-up.

With a wink to the Bard:
“stinking hellebore by any other name would smell as foul…”

Furthermore, Stirrup openly admits to moving here to escape the “invasion” in Arlington. Perhaps someone from that county could enlighten us on Stirrup’s history there.

Here, everything is referred to as “immigration” not “illegal immigration.”

http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/briefs/2007/20070710.pdf

Anyone know if the original policy was removed from the BOCS website?

Alanna,

This issue probably more than any other is dividing Republicans, somehow we have to find a way to unite over this issuue; if we continue to squable amongst ourselves it demonstrates a weakness in the party.

I think the damage is mostly irreparable. Even if the republicans accomplish a tenuous alliance over this issue, it’s too late now. I doubt Latinos will be voting republican for at least a generation. They will probably vote democrat or not vote at all.

Every time their children come home and tell them how they were called ‘anchor baby’ and told ‘dirty Mexican go home’, it will be like a knife in the heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_csHlyPNeA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6VtbLQNR6Y

It seems that some of the original supporters of the Immigration Resolution want to produce a sanitized version.

I get called all sorts of labels that are demonized..leftist, liberal, apologist, PC, etc. I think it’s almost hilarious how some people throw the words around like barbs…like I’m going to hide and yell, “No! Not me!” Eric Alterman wrote a great book called Why We’re Liberals: A Political Handbook for Post-Bush America; I highly recommend it. In it, he discusses how studies show that while a majority of Americans agree with viewpoints that are commonly attributed to liberals (he cites said studies), a majority of people (including politicians) would rather be caught dead than to have themselves considered a liberal.

Alterman also quotes Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly, and other conservative political pundits about their view that conservatives now have control of the media, even though the term “liberal media” is widely popular. Studies by Media Matters for America back up these claims:
* 60% of US daily papers print more conservative columnists than progressive.
* In 38 states, conservative columns reach more readers than progressive columns.

According to Alterman, the success of Fox networks (based on its conservative pundits) helped to create this pattern in the media. Both standard network and cable television network execs know that conservative pundits make for awfully good TV (translation: BIG BUCKS), and have made moves that have led to firings of TV personalities because America might view them as too liberal. Self-professed conservative writer Matt Labash said this of about conservative punditry:

“We’ve created this cottage industry in which it pays to be unobjective. It pays to be subjective as much as possible. It’s a great way to have your cake and eat it, too. Criticize other people for not being objective. Be as subjective as you want. It’s a great little racket. I’m glad we found it.”

The point is, people who have sought to demonize the term liberal have been VERY successful. I am a liberal Democrat, and even though some might say my the label I embrace means I hate America, I can assure you that I very much love my country. It’s funny that I should even feel I have to say this, as not many conservatives get accused of hating America. The demonization of my label is now simply accepted as commonplace, tolerable, and true by many, and that is a shame (and unfair, might I add).

I know that there is a diverse group of conservatives posting on this blog. Some support the resolution and what is behind it, and some do not. Some have a tendency to make negative generalizations about certain ethnic or cultural groups, and some are very much the antithesis of this.

For those of us that are liberals, or have some liberal viewpoints, I think it is time we starting taking back some of these labels, and not running from them. The word apologist also comes up often. In its most traditional definition (according to Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary), it means “One who makes an apology; one who speaks or writes in defense of a faith, a cause, or an institution; especially, one who argues in defense of Christianity.” These labels are not the monsters that some would make them out to be.

Go liberals!!!

all I know is that I’m happy with the current situation. the economy sucks for sure, has nothing to do with immigrants or anything, however the illegals and many others are leaving because of it. sure they resolution and the environment is pushing them to other counties, I’m fine with this too as they can have them. when it get’s too much for them to bear they’ll pass their own resolutions and watch the people there start getting stirred up (no pun intended)

I think things are working as planned, cant make an omelett without breaking a few eggs.

Diversity Gal, I guess that is what happens when we allow others to define us. Look at the backlash Alanna is getting when she sets forth the definition of her own blog.

Go moderates! (the new left) ho ho tee hee

Moon-howler,

You are SOOOO right. I do think that there is a trend to define what is a moderate viewpoint as a leftist one (and thereby drive liberals off some sort of leftist cliff and portray them as America-hating nutbars), and this is specifically addressed in the Alterman book I referenced.

Alanna, just know that while some would seek to demonize you and this blog, I think it is a very necessary thing for it to exist. When the voice behind the other blog was so vocal and (I feel) detrimentally influential in PWC politics, Anti-BVBL came about to serve as an essential balance. I’m glad Anti-BVBL is here!

kgotthardt,
page 5 http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/006888.pdf
This is a document issued by Gerhart.

http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/briefs/2007/20070710.pdf
This brief is created by Gerhart and staff.

Other can call it whatever they want, but it was not what the Supervisor Stirrup called it. My statement still stands.

DiversityGal, the far right nutjobs like to say that liberals hate America. But they (the right wing nuts) just hate Americans. Haha.

Junkyard dog: “Your red is showing”

Hilarious!!!!! And brilliant.

I have also seen the Resolution referred to as the Immigration Resolution in official county documents. But they did change it after a while to “Illegal Immigration” and then to “Rule of Law.” The next title is going to be the “Blunder Twins Resolution.” And after that we’ll come full circle and call it the “Anti-immigrant Resolution.”

The fact is that without anti-immigrant sentiment, without the guy who gets mad at the sound of Spanish or the lady who’s afraid of dark skinned men and moved out of Arlington to avoid them, there simply wouldn’t have been a political base to move this thing forward. Hate was the fuel that powered the engine. Face it. It was.

It was a mistake to call it the “Immigration Resolution” but it was a classic case of someone typing without thinking. A classic case of “your red is showing.”

Alanna, Katherine, and Elena, don’t forget, you knew when you decided to speak out that anyone that didn’t fall in line with the Anti-immigrant Lobby march was going to be viciously attacked. You were incredibly brave then. Now that the whole community has risen to get your backs and take your lead, it should be a piece of cake.

Back in 2007, also, let’s not forget the main blog was Gospel Greg’s blog, where you couldn’t do what most of us do: post anonymously. If you posted something that made any sense, you got censored. So what was the point?

Now that The Blunder Twins have shot themselves in the foot with Gospel Greg’s outrageous outbursts and Corey Stewart’s attack on Chief Deane, no one is intimidated. No one on the Board of Supervisors. No one who uses their real name. And on one who uses a pseudonym. There is no censorship. People’s views are allowed here, even if they make sense.

There are still a few hanger-ons who rely on the old tactics of bully and attack and defame and sound like bigots while you’re at it. But they are just a residue.

They have no impact other than to remind us how vile they were. Now days, what good is it to write something hateful on a bathroom wall if no one reads it anymore, and no one is intimidated?

What NGL said: “without the guy who gets mad at the sound of Spanish or the lady who’s afraid of dark skinned men … Hate was the fuel that powered the engine.”

That is what I have experienced in myself — fear and hate — and I’m not afraid to admit it. The first time I walked in a CVS and saw a Hallmark Card area for Spanish language cards, I thought, “What is that doing here, in MY CVS?” I realize now how ridiculous that sounds, kind of like when you share a room with your sister and get pissed off when she puts one thing on your side. And when I think about it, it was just fear because I couldn’t read the words. I grew beyond it. When I saw the first of Eric and Annabel’s videos, where the white man is pointing his finger at the Latino child, the fear his anger hid was a fear I identified with. My community is changing! These newcomers don’t look like I do! Why don’t they do things the way I do? And not only that, I think they are getting away with something. I don’t know for sure, but they all look the same so they must all be getting away with something. I’ve grown past that.

If I don’t deal with the fear, it becomes hate. And the fear is just the unknown. I learned to educate myself and get more involved locally, not listen to all the junk being thrown back and forth. Talk to people. Listen to voices of people who aren’t like me. Find out what we have in common, not lash out at what makes us different.

The film series at George Mason is an excellent opportunity — two more films this weekend at 7:30 pm Saturday (Golden Venture) and 2:30 pm Sunday (Ramchand Pakistani). Open discussion facilitated by George Mason students afterward. FREE.

And the upcoming study circles. There’s a pilot one scheduled for 9 to 4 on Saturday, September 13 and on Sept 27, there will be an information meeting from 9:30 to 11:30 am to recruit people for the first series of study circles on immigration. There will be more information at the film series — GMU, Prince William campus, Verizon auditorium. What a great opportunity, no matter where you stand — left, moderate, right — to take part in face to face discussions and get past the hate and fear.

I’m not moderate, but not leftist either.

Maybe just left-handed.

Second that, Elena. Alanna is the most fearless person I know also. And you are the second most fearless person I know.
M-H

Cindy B,

Love love LOVE your personal story. It takes a brave soul to look inside herself and confront where her feelings are coming from. It’s something we should all be doing on a regular basis. Thanks for sharing that:)

So, if the majority of PWC residents don’t want illegal aliens in their community, that’s considered to be “bullying” ? I think the word you are looking for is “democracy”. Majority rules.

Elena
Your reintroduction smacks of desperation. Further, it is extremly disingenuous to build your case by cobbling together isolated incidents and extreme positions for which virtually no one agrees. This being done in conjunction with the constant need to moderate your own radical positions relevant to illegals is a pretty good indication to me that even you have doubts that your sphere of influence reaches beyond this very vocal miniority. When one has to reintroduce or reinvent their brand it usually means they are losing market share. In this case it is a matter of your message gaining little or no trackion. That of course due to the fact that the vast majority of citizens simply disagree with you and now have ample evidence that your position was wrong from day one.

In the face of all of this evidence, your case gets tougher to sell with each passing day.
I suspect this time next year you will be talking to yourself.

Johnson, when did the “majority” of PWC residents get a chance to express their opinions? Public hearings? No. We didn’t have any. Majority of emails to the BOCS? No. There were too many from outside the county – generated curtesy of FAIR. The majority of speakers and attendees at the mega BOCS meeting? No. HSM and cohorts were the minority.

You can spin it til you’re dizzy but you have no facts to back up your assertion.

Censored bybvbl,

The many hours of “Citizen Time” on July, 10; Oct 16; April 7, and on and on was the public hearings. There was more time allowed for this item than any other topic EVER in PWC history. And the majority of PWC CITIZENS did speak. You talk about emails coming from outside the county, let’s talk about the bus loads of folks brought in by MWB from outside the county on 10/16 for example.

Or, how about November 6, 2007 when Corey Stewart and John Stirrup easily won reelection despite Alanna and Elena doing everything they could to prevent it? Illegal immigration was front and center of those elections and the majority certainly spoke then too.

Dems the facts Jack!

I agreed with BVBL on immigration issues at the onset. Of course, being a Democrat, I was dismissed before we even got to immigration. Two reasons I am not still on BVBL:

1) their inability to stratgize or stratify – it’s easier and requires less intellect to generalize

2) their ethics – I have a moral standard that I live by. I also have a yen for heaven.

I don’t buy that Stewart/Stirrup won on illegal immigration. I think they won for being Republican. I think a dead person on the ballet in PWC as a Republican would win.

Neither choice Pandak/Stewart were my choice. I voted Republican for my ultra conservative pro-resolution Supervisor and Democratic for the Chair. I voted Democratic for the Chair cuz I don’t think Stewart knows what the hell he’s doing fiscally and I don’t think he give a darn for PWC. I also don’t care for fascists….. Democratic or Republican.

Pax, Citizens Time does not equal a public hearing. It may have been the longest CT in PWC history but you’ll have to supply me with some facts to prove that more time was devoted to it than any other subject during a legitimate public hearing in PWC history. I imagine a few zoning issues have had more time devoted to them.

You have no way of proving that the majority of citizens “spoke” about immigration based on the last election results. As Juturna said, it’s a Republican county for the most part. (We’ll see if that holds true after November.) In my area, immigration wasn’t even on the radar screen for most people. You also have no proof that the “busloads” of people were from outside of the county. The speakers had to give their addresses and county residents spoke first. Face it, HSM was outnumbered.

Censored by bvbl – they hold a separate citizens time for a public hearing but it limited to 3minutes each. Each public hearing is announced and citizens are allowed to comment on the particular item for up to three minutes.

Zoning presentations are handled differently, there is no time limit. County staff provides a recommendation and then attorneys for the citizens/businesses impacted make a presentation without time limits. Recall the recent church Public Hearings, citizens spoke but were limited to 3 minutes.

Public Hearing is a bit of misnomer – it conveys a town meeting on an issue doesn’t it?

Regarding the “busloads” comments, that has been addressed by Lucky Duck who said he was there. How many times is that going to come back up? Check snopes…..

“In my area, immigration wasn’t even on the radar screen for most people.”

This is the problem with antibvbl and the 9500Liberty crew. For the vast majority of PWC residents, illegal immigration was the problem. There was no conspiracy. People were voted in for their commitment to fixing the problem. HSM was a culmination of frustrations felt by citizens. This stuff isn’t some crazy conspiracy dreamt up by Greg L, Corey S., and John S. Citizens dealt for years with the problem only to have half hearted attempts and appathetic responses from elected officials and police.

You saying that immigration wasn’t even on the radar screen for most people in your area is very telling as to why this blog alienates a whole lot of people.

interesting…according to the people here on the blog the majority of people didnt support the resolution or anything related to the elimination of illegal aliens in our midst. I would totally disagree, everyone here can vote. Then vote for people who support your illegal immigrant agenda, dont get mad just go away when you dont get your way. as mentioned above that’s how the system works. if you dont like it, run for president or dictator whatever your preference may be.

take this test: walk into any grocery store and strike up conversations with people you meet (not your buddies, new people that you have never talked to before) I will be you my bottom dollar that the clear majority would say they dont want illegal immigrants here. In fact, in the more affluent areas you will probably find the overwhelming majority do not. Going to marumsco is cheating by the way, probably most of them ARE illegal immigrants and their votes dont count.

help save manassass and all the other groups are growing exponentially, and all you have is this blog. Start an organization with people and we’ll see how the numbers stack up. I remember the busloads of MWB people coming in during that BOCS meeting and I about puked. The guy stomping on the american flag outside really caught my attention.

it’s clear the majority people dont agree with you.

Elvis-The last thing PWC needs is another group.

Way back up there someone asked for the original resolution.

http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/agendas/2007/0710/10-E.pdf

g.stone: I sure hope you know what you are talking about because I seriously doubt anyone else does.

Pax: Citizens time is not a public hearing. You cannot redefine what a public hearing is. There was no public hearing over the Immigration Resolution. Furthermore, the majority of PWC citizens did NOT speak at Citizens’ time on October 16. Think about that statement. It simply did not nor could not have happened.

Busloads of people brought in by MWB? Another unsubstantiated statements Neutral people in attendance denied this happened.

People who have no interest in PWC emailing from FAIR is just plain wrong. Unfortunately, our supervisors did not know of this deception.

As for the Nov 6 election, I don’t recall seeing or hearing a word from Elena about candidates. Would you like to back that statement up with any proof? As for Alanna, she can oppose any candidate she choses. Are you somehow implying she was un-American by opposing Stirrup? I don’t think so.

I also object to the “anti-immigrant” characterization, as it is inflammatory and entirely false. People who have had to deal with the negative consequences of illegal immigration are not going to stand for the cry of “racism” whenever their opponents run out of substantive arguments. Many of you have said that no one is “for” illegal immigration, but you refuse to acknowledge the problems. Maybe you could show some consideration and compassion for your “legal” neighbors, immigrant or otherwise, who have had to suffer some of these issues and understand why many of them feel as they do.

I can tell you from my experience here that when folks have ganged up on me, called me names and ridiculed me, that my position against illegal immigration has only gotten more solidified. You might want to consider that your namecalling and ridicule have alienated–and continue to alienate–many people. Is that what you want?

Au contraire— Tickle me…. I have no flophouses in my neighborhood. However, last year, reading posts by Lafayette on BVBL made me realize that while I did not have an issue personally, many did. That is what got me interested. I also am of the belief that business should be punished for violating payroll tax laws and for not investigating questionable ID’s.

No one in this country will take this issue seriously until we see the Chairman of some large business in handcuffs for allowing the hiring of illegals on the front page of the Washington Times. Now there’s a quest. There’s a solution. Let’s get that to happen.

elvis,

I remember the busloads of MWB people coming in during that BOCS meeting and I about puked. The guy stomping on the american flag outside really caught my attention.

It’s people like you elvis, who are staining our flag with the excrement of your bigotry. Real Americans embrace freedom, not fascism.

Mando, Elvis, etc..
Yes, either McCain or Obama will be voted in to fix the problem as well, and then the argument that the election is over and ‘we’ should just shut up and go away will be turned on you.

Let’s see how well you all take your own advice!

What I saw that day were some HSM knuckleheads rush into the Latino crowd and get pulled out by County police.

Can we get that tape from Channel 4 news?

Not sure I understand

“Many of you have said that no one is “for” illegal immigration, but you refuse to acknowledge the problems.”

I think some may have broader interpretations of illegal immigration. My is pretty much restricted to unlawful entry.

Mando, I’ve heard that overcrowded housing in PWC and Manassas City equalled less than 5% of the housing stock. Some neighborhoods were more effected than others; some weren’t effected at all. I want you to think about what I’m going to say next….

Just as some of you complain that your tax dollars go to support immigrants who are using the hospital emergency rooms, schools, or the “blue bird” bus, some of us don’t like our tax dollars being spent on your resolution when we’d rather the money be spent on parks, libraries and bond issues that we DID vote for. We dislike seeing Senior centers closed, DCR begging for funds, or the schools being shorted. We think our bucks are underwriting the failures of the affected neighborhoods to address their legitimate problems to the BOCS without involving immigration status which is a federal problem. We wish you had organized as effectively as HSM but had addressed your problems where they could be solved – neighborhood services, zoning, the police. But maybe the passion couldn’t be whipped up without the bogeyman of immigration.

Say it isn’t so….. there are bad people on both sides of the issue????? If we all agreed on that THAT would be progress!

DId you know that the original blue bird bus was sold on E-bay?!!

Haha, Juturna, everything seems to eventually make it to an eBay listing!

Not trying to divert the conversation, just a bit of levity. At least Ebay can’t hire illegals?!!! Can they? Should we worry about buying from illegals??? O boy, I don’t want to give up ebay. All those good deals. So now I am thinking what is worse ethically, buying from illegals on ebay or shopping at WalMart and Kohls where all those clothes are made in Asian countries by 8 year olds tied to chairs.

Will have to think about this one. I hate when I make myself think.

Juturna, you can always buy from a company with Fair Trade practices – although you’ll pay dearly. They are even on eBay. I always keep an eye out for Mexican Catrinas and run across Fair Trade items frequently. But generally, it’s a cruel world out there for bargain hunters.

No one has denied that there are problems associated with illegal immigration. Please Emma. I am beginning to feel like a broken record. If I have to read about the horrible problems on a blog, then I would say I haven’t been horribly affected by illegal immigration. No, I don’t live in a ritzy, gated community.

Not being to be grouchy but if things have been said to you, it was brought about by your demeanor here. I am willing to let it go, but not if you come here and start complaining that you have been mistreated. I think what I am trying to say is, in regard to respect, give a little, get a little. And I think you have done just that recently, so let’s go forward, not backwards.

anti-immigrant vs. anti-illegal immigrant

As I said last evening the original wording said re: immigration, the organization that gave the resolution is anti-immigrant, (I’ll create a thread for more information on this subject), comments at Citizens’ Time are evidence of the anti-immigrant sentiment that exists. These comments usually started by someone stating I’m not racist, this has nothing to do with racism and then ended with something like I just don’t like it when a Hispanic can own nine homes and I can’t own one, or thank god for birth control, or it makes me uncomfortable when a Hispanic man nods his head at me.

My major objection to what I sense is the position of most of the people who FAVOR “illegal” immigration, is that they have personal reasons for doing so because they favor “immigration” for personal friends and family, regardless of the limitations of the law or the damage to others it causes.

And they do not care who else this “illegal” immigration affects, especially if it affects some other ethnic, gender, religious or racial class other than their own, and especially if that “class” structure happens to be a majority.

It is very common political correctness to “HATE” the majority. What you are doing when you do this is DISCRIMMINATE against the majority, and DISCRIMMINATE aginst the common law, designed to protect everyone the same.

Words like “status quo”, or “conservatives” or “hate bunnies” are used in ways that denigrate anyone who opposes the minority will of this country. It is a political hate tool.

I agree with others here, that your refusal to acknowledge that “illegal” immigration is unlawful, has a detrimental effect on the community, has a significant racial, and ethnic group politcal faction element in our political infrasctructure (that we got rid of in the 1960s Civil rights riots), AND that it has a significant impact on the present and future criminalization of our political infrastructure, is the MAIN reason the MAJORITY of people in this country, this state and this nation are against you and will always be against you, until you follow the law.

Until you can present your complaints only in support eliminating bad acts committed against “legal” immigration (and the fringe elements of any society will extend their anger to radical positions), and not acknowledge the “damage” and “harm” to the society caused by “illegal” immigration you will not get the support of the majority of people in our society. As long as you blindly and arrogantly defend your actions as abstract “immigrant” issues, you will continue to enrage those who know you are doing it intentionally to divert attention away from your own lack of ethics regarding the “damage” done by illegal immigration, and pretend to be “ethical” by focusing only on the trivial “good” benefits and collateral human suffering cause by “illegal” immigration and “illegal” immigrants who chose to put themselves in this position, willingly and without remorse, breaking the law and hurting the rest of us.

There is no “forwards”, until people start following the law. Then and only then can we rationally debate the “welfare” and “poverty” issues, with the resources and means we have left to help everyone the same, regardless of race, religion, gender or ethnoic group.

Quick question, when people made these kinds of comments, why was it that nobody from the anti-illegal immigrant side spoke out and said what a second guys that’s not what this is about. No, instead … the accusations of playing the race card are levied against us. Guess what, stop playing the damn card and we’ll stop calling you on it.

How dare we say there seems to be an underlying racial component. What? What do you expect, that it just be ignored, as if it was never uttered. NO, if you say something that I deem suspect then I’m going to call you on it. I have never said, this person or that person is racist but rather simply there appears to be a racial component to this debate. How anybody can deny that is beyond me.

What people NEED TO DO is start evaluating the impact of why some “individuals” in this community can own 9 homes while they can only own one (when the reason they can do this is because they break the law, and because of what ethnic group they belong to or discrimminate against can abuse that law without getting caught or punished, or have advantage over another because they have ethnic centric business connections that are corrupted and illegal and discrimminatory), or that birth control is a population issue affecting us all, and is a problem perpetuated and encouraged by religious beliefs and ethnic culture affecting ALL individuals equally as a result of its economic and global energy impact (one major reason why the pope is now endorsing birth control to save the planet from human misery and suffering), and that every culture has a problem with every other culture when they cant’ speak the same language and understand one another, as a cause for distrust, anger and irritation that only simmers, boils and bursts into an ethnic, racial and religious class conflict in the rest of the world, as it son will here if we do not learn to integrate and become a common national culture call a “nation”.

Most people can only explain those issues by pointing their fingers at the ethnic groups most visibly doing it, and can’t articulate the issue in terms of “individual” lawbreaking, lack of ethics, crime and corruption of the political infrastructure associaed with “illegal” immigration and lawlessness.

Those are the issues of “lawlessness” and law enforcement “gaps” and increase in corruption that really upset everyone to the point that they rose up politically to put a stop to it.

This anger that rose to the formation of HSM, started well over 10 years ago, only the majority just now, within the last 2 years, got the political nerve to stand up to wide-spread “political oppression” of the majority voice by minority (race, gender, religious and ethnic) groups in this country using “1960s style racial hate group” tactics.

I assume this comment is for me to answer?

Alanna 20:25 Quick question, when people made these kinds of comments, why was it that nobody from the anti-illegal immigrant side spoke out and said what a second guys that’s not what this is about?

Many did, especially me (you can see my many, many posts on BVBL telling those who tried to explain their anger in ethnic group outbursts of anger, that they instead don’t realize the real issue is about the lack of law-enforcement and the increase of business and political corruption caused by lack of law enforcement.) People cannot see this because we have been taught in the past 10 years to only care about our own ethnic, gender, racial or religious group. People have forgotten how to think about issues in terms of the impact on “individuals”. And the impact on the majority of “individuals” caused by a “minority” of individuals. This is the way law works, BTW. That is why it is more just than what is going on here.

It is hard to silence the radical fringe element of any political group (you yourself cannot do this with radical elements that post “anti-anti” hate bursts here).

I know that makes you angry but your anger clouds your judgment and prevents you from seeing the negative impact of “illegal” immigrant behavior on the majority community, while you direct your focus on stopping the “fringe” you neglect the needs of the “majority”. The needs of the “one” in this case do not outweigh the needs of the “many”. I love that movie…

I guess “illegal”immigration is our own “Kobiasho Maru”

I’ll come back and address more later if more discussion is desired, It is Friday night and I have a date with my lovely wife.

Is anyone else watching the opening olympics ceremony on nbc? It’s phenomenal and a nice history lesson in art.

I am, Mackie. It’s stunning, isn’t it?

Alanna said:

comments at Citizens’ Time are evidence of the anti-immigrant sentiment that exists. These comments usually started by someone stating I’m not racist, this has nothing to do with racism and then ended with something like I just don’t like it when a Hispanic can own nine homes and I can’t own one, or thank god for birth control, or it makes me uncomfortable when a Hispanic man nods his head at me.

Yes, I think this is very true.

People who engage in this type of bigotry typically stand up and berate anyone who calls them a racist without getting to know them.

Then they see nothing hypocritical with reserving for themselves the right to be judged as individuals.
However, hispanics et. al. are not human enough to merit the right to be judged as individuals.

You can find this subtle racism all over the place.

Emma,

Yes, I’m enjoying it very much. I wish they’d stop cutting to commercial though.

What is antibvbl? It is a place where anyone who in the very slightest way supports the resolution is labeled a racist, a Greg clone, a Greg minion, or any of a dozen other terms. It is a place where this person will be made to feel uncomfortable and attempts will be made to make them want to leave this blog. This person will be called anti-immigrant when instead they are anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant. anti-bvbl is a place where anyone who is in the very slightest way against completely open borders, is not really wanted here.

Why do so many people who are at least slightly against open borders feel welcome here, then? I do not think we should have open borders, but I do not see this as the job of local government. I feel perfectly welcome here! Anyone else out there feel the same way?

Welcome TheTruth,
Complaining about being called a Greg clone or bvbl poster, really what is that about?

Do you realize the character assassination that has occurred on bvbl? Should I make a list of all the people that have been villified and for what? Finally, he overstepped his boundary with the attack on Chief Deane but what about all the others before him? And your gripe is with being called a Greg clone? Did you ever stand-up against the disparaging remarks against our fellow citizens or did you just allow it to happen?

I addressed the anti-immigrant, anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant at 19:55. If you’d like to address any of those points specifically then I’d be willing to discuss this issue further.

A place where people feel uncomfortable and you’d be made to want to leave the blog – I can relate to this. Listen, this obviously isn’t a subject matter that is necessarily easy to discuss, emotions run high, it’s a polarizing issue. I recognize this. Even I have to take a break from it every once in a blue moon.

I personally am not ‘open borders’, however there might be other people who comment that might espouse that viewpoint.

DiversityGal,
Don’t get it at all, it’s not even a close comparison between the two.

DG been there for about a year and a month now.

The truth, I don’t recall seeing you around enough to really evaluate what anti blog is. I think you are listening to your friends or you are using a new moniker.

Now why do you think we support open borders? Find me one person on here who has advocated open borders. You can’t, I don’t believe. And if someone has advocated open borders, I expect that person was probably ignored.

I find it comical how many people come here complaining about how they are treated. I don’t take it seriously and I suppose the proper rely is now going to be ’stiff upper lip,. you’ll survive.’

The Truth, you aren’t one of those drive-by posters who come here occasionally to say “You’re just as bad as BVBL” and then quickly scurry away without contributing anything meanful to the conversation, are you? Why would you care if someone called you a “Greg clone”? Many Red Spots accuse me of living in a gated community. It’s so far from the truth that it merely makes me chuckle. I imagine you’re laughing if the “Greg clone” label doesn’t fit. Right?

I don’t see the similarities between the two blogs. You’re free to post here without your words being censored. You’re not being manipulated into supporting particular candidates or an extremist wing of a party. You can publically state that you liked the Manassas City Christmas parade. You can come in here and make silly statements like “You all support open borders” and not have to back those words up or have them disappear.

Alanna, 9. August 2008, 0:10
Do you realize the character assassination that has occurred on bvbl? Should I make a list of all the people that have been villified and for what?

Alanna, this is spot-on the reason why some of your readers feel alienated. You give the impression that your blog is “payback time.” You’re so obsessed with bvbl that you and many others here neatly file everyone into one side or the other, even though you yourself acknowledge that there are many sides to this issue. Some of us haven’t ever even met a single HSM member, but no matter to you.

I found it terribly offensive on SO many levels when elvis was making fun of your appearance, but mostly because that was a very personal attack. The Greg-clone stuff is not really a big deal, since most of us are pretty thick-skinned–and anonymous to each other–but it tends to shut down the dialogue a bit. I think that is where The Truth and others are coming from.

Once upon a time there was this business owner. His business was health and fitness. He owned an extremely large gym with all types of equipment. As with all gyms he charged a fee for membership and use of the equipment. After all it was a business, and how else could he provide the serves. Near his place of business was a community of shall we say ‘less fortunate’ people. These people couldn’t afford to join his gym, so several of the younger ones would sneak in periodically. Now the owner found out about this, but being compassionate and well off, decided to ignore it as they were only a few. He could have easily caught them as they didn’t wear the fine gym outfits that the members wore, but it wasn’t hurting his business and he felt sorry for them as well. Eventually over time the word spread in the ‘unfortunate’ community and more and more people began sneaking into the gym. He noticed this increase, but was still undecided as to what to do since things were still going well for him. The non-members, not knowing the rules of the gym, began to do things that were against the rules and the members started to take notice. Some of the members started to complain to the owner about the lack of enforcement of the rules that they felt they were paying to be enforced as a member. The owner, knowing the non-members were the source of the complaints, tried to quietly persuade the non-members to either join or not sneak in, but having been able to use the gym for free for so long, they weren’t willing to do that. Instead they became angry and started to cause more trouble for the owner by raising their voices, and intentionally breaking the rules. Now the owner was seeing that his business was being affected, and so he decided to take action. Unfortunately before he could come up with a solid plan the complaints by the members mounted to the point that the members themselves began to leave. This was bad enough, but then one day the word got out that most of the people causing the problems weren’t even members. This really made the paying members angry and they demanded that the non-members be ejected at once. The owner, seeing his business on the brink, did the only thing that he could to save it, and that was to hire security personnel to check the membership of all those entering his gym. Things eventually began to return to normal, and as word spread his customer base began to return to normal for as you see this was happening at other gyms also. So I ask you, does this not sound reasonable and familiar? The county is also a business made up of members (citizens) with rules (laws), so why is that so hard to accept? Makes sense to me!

Emma said

The Greg-clone stuff is not really a big deal, since most of us are pretty thick-skinned–and anonymous to each other–but it tends to shut down the dialogue a bit. I think that is where The Truth and others are coming from.

And I think that is a fair statement. My problem is, Emma, you have been around enough to be able to say that; the Truth seems to be a drive by shooter.

I disagree with the statement above criticizing Alanna of being obsessed with bvbl. WEll……look at the name. Anti-bvbl. Anti is an alternative to the dark screen. If there were no bvbl or hsm, would anti exist? Probably not. If it were not for the immigration issue in PWC, many of us would probably be having tea and crumpets while directing our gardeners to plant more azealas. <—–sarcasm alert

Is it an obsession when you can’t pulL your eyes from a train wreck?
The downward spiral of horror on BVBL began after the election when there was a feeling of supremacy and control of the BOCS. That’s when I realized BVBL was not about issues but all about influence and control. That’s when the gloves came off and anyone with a varying opinion was cut off Greg is a shooting star on the decline. Most supervisors have now dismissed him – namely Mr Nohe and you saw Gregs recent and feeble attempt to go after him.
If you realize BVBL is not about issues but about influence, control, power and self aggrandizement then you understand Anti-BVBL. INMHO

Wow! This has turned out to be one of the greatest threads ever. DiversityGal’s incredibly devestating critique of right wing media extremist and the clones who parrot it here, Elena’s humble and enlightening reminder that Alanna was the first to stand up to the hate sheep at the height of their power thereby inspiring others including Elena to do the same, Cindy B’s movingly honest admission to once having her judgement clouded by fear bordering on hate but turning herself around to participate in community healing, and a host of desperate Hate Bunnies with no argument left other than “because the hijacking of our government by a lobbying firm classified as a HATE GROUP took place in a democracy, it must have been okay to have the hate group write our county policy.”

The contrast between the two camps is striking. Here you have conservatives like Alanna and WHWN, moderates like MoonHowler and CindyB, and progressives like DiversityGirl and me ALL agreeing that the Duecaster Disaster was bad policy, however it was arrived at. And that it is inspiring to have participated in a movement of everyday citizens banding together to protect the county from hate groups from without and haters within.

In the other camp you have rightwing extremists, few of which dare say their names, and the ones who do have all, every last one of them, disgraced, humiliated, and discredited themselves during Citizens Time with racist and ignorant, not to mention hateful statements.

I thought it was a risk to start this thread. But it really has led to some wonderful honesty from both camps (even though the right wing extremist camp has been ugly and inept as usual).

Elena, thanks for this thread and everyone even Hate Bunnies thanks for participating.

See you at Mason tonight.

To say the the two blogs are same is ludicrous to me. First the opening “headlines” and/or stories are very different. Remember, in ones own words they write things on their blog to get folks “riled” up on bvbl. The topics here do NOT set out to get people riled up. They set one out to make think and then exchange debate with individuals that do not all share the same train of thought. Now, both blogs will ALWAYS have those that want to come around and make some extreme comments. However, your words will remain up for all to see with their own two eyes. This can’t be said for bvbl. I’ve had several comments taken down, simply because I was calling people out for name calling and bullying. I have the comments that were taken down. They were “male bashing” in some minds I’m sure, but none the less they are no longer there for anyone read.

there’s a lotta love floating around here! I thought for a second I reached the wrong blog, maybe you should change the top and borders with a bunch of flowers and maybe a picture of a hookah or something. I feel as everyone here just deserves a big hug, a really big hug and maybe a big wet kiss from your old pal elvis, since we’re all in the loving mood. Wow!

and my experiment for they day, I’m heading out to the grocery store to try my little experiment (just to see if it works) I’m going to shoppers (never been there) just to make sure it’s un-biased. I’ll talk to everyone I meet, even those of suspected hispanic origin. I will post my results here today for sure. I’m totally out of beer too, so I definitely need to make the trip today. Speaking of beer I hear schlitz is making a comeback with the ole recipe I may pick up a few 40’s too, a little malt liquor is always welcome on a saturday morning. and for those who think I’m racist, I’m going to pick up a 12-pack of corona just to show you i love all kinds.

`

Emma,

some of your readers feel alienated. You give the impression that your blog is “payback time.” You’re so obsessed with bvbl that you and many others here neatly file everyone into one side or the other, even though you yourself acknowledge that there are many sides to this issue. Some of us haven’t ever even met a single HSM member, but no matter to you.

I think you’re being silly and childish. People can post what they want here. That means some people will disagree with you. Many have disagreed with me.

If you can’t take people disagreeing with you, then that’s your problem.

NotGregLetiecq, aka WhyHereWhyNow:

Your characterization of “both camps” is exactly what I am talking about. You like to neatly categorize people, and it undermines your arguments.

I thought it was a risk to start this thread. But it really has led to some wonderful honesty from both camps (even though the right wing extremist camp has been ugly and inept as usual).

What “camp” do you belong to? And you keep mentioning the people who won’t dare to use their names. Were you baptized “NotGregLetiecq”?

Michael you got it right when you said “illegal immigrant behavior” with BEHAVIOR being the operative word.

Someone on this blog used a saying that goes: “So-and-so isn’t a bad person, he just did a bad thing.”. We all need to remember that when we see someone do a bad thing, especially if that person is another ethnicity, because we ALL tend to lump people into categories and judge entire groups based on the behavior of a few.

But because there are so many Caucasian people in this country, I think we all know not to stereotype them. Of course I know not to characterize all Caucasians based on the ones that spoke at Citizens Time (by the way Alanna and Mackie NAILED it above in their description).

Emma and others are upset that she is lumped in with HSM and those infamous Citizans Time speakers. It’s not because you a Caucasian, or even because you have a particular point of view, it is because of your beavior that we push back against you. Emma for instance never gets any heat for being Caucasian and for the Resolution as originally written. But she does get a spanking when she writes something that we consider rude or borderlindle prejudiced. And at no time do we say so-and-so said this, therefor all Caucasians are like that.

The problem with using your eyes and ears to determine if there are too many “illegals” around here is that you are forced to make generalizations based on behavior. You are forced to match that behavior with a particular group of people to make your point. BUT documentation status is INVISIBLE while skin color is not. You are forced to assume any behavior you do not like is done by someone who is “illegal” based on superficial qualities like skin color or language spoken. Sadly, you end up taking a stand against a race of PEOPLE, when really what initially bothered you was a behavior.

If you can accept that bad behavior does not necessarily make one a bad person, you must accept that bad behavior by a few does not make an entire community bad or deserving of anything less than humane treatment and equal protection under the law.

By

Mackie, it’s not about whether I can “take” people disagreeing with me. This blog would be way too boring if everyone agreed with everything I had to say. That’s not the point. And admit it, you yourself have pushed the envelope a few times just to make a point.

What I take exception to is Alanna is suggesting that personal attacks are OK against anyone she or anyone here disagrees with, because of whatever personal attacks bvbl might have engaged in. That comes across as “payback time,” and it doesn’t seem to matter if some of us weren’t even aware of the blogs at that point in time anyway–we’re going to get attacked, whether the attack is valid or not, because that’s what bvbl did/does. How about attacking because of what the person actually said, not because of what you have falsely decided he/she represents? Then you can rightfully pat yourselves on the back for your tolerance and open-mindedness.

Perception is everything, remember?

Come on folks, you have no comment on my story of 9:11 (how appropriate…..). Just as always, pass up what can’t be faulted!

Emma,
Have YOU been attacked personally on this blog? Have you been called a “fat broad”?
I think many’s comments do come under scrutiny. Now, if one perceives their comments as a personal attack then their reality. Debating ones comments are hardly the same as a personal attack. imho.

Elena,
You are welcome.
I’m with you on the prior thread wanting Pax to tell the diffrence between HSM and BVBL. I won’t be holding my breath. Perhaps, I will get proven wrong and we’ll get some sort of response.

Emma,
Please, allow me to clarify.
I think many’s comments do come under scrutiny. Now, if one perceives their comments AS COMING UNDER personal attack then that’s their reality.

Segundo Alamo,

Your low-brow analogy misses one crucial point.

All people in the club are members because everyone pays to use the club. The claim that some members don’t pay is a falsehood. Everyone pays.

Some members of the club may have been denied their membership cards because of the bigots who run the club. That means we have to change the leadership of the club. Problem solved.

SA, Sorry, I didn’t see your post.

I see the point you are making. The main difference in your story and reality is that the gym owner has ultimate control and the county does not. The feds have the ultimate control. Again, it isn’t that we don’t think there is a problem. The difference is how to go about finding solutions for those problems and the tone of the discussion.

The process was rotten in this county and those who were carrying the message to the people(FAIR) really had an agenda rather than having a dog in that fight.

Aren’t you sorry you asked us to go back and look? Your story reminds of the bird feeder story a friend sent me.

just got back from the store people, I talked to exactly 16 people inside the store (including the clerks). Each one (three of them were hispanic looking) said they would prefer that illegal aliens were deported. believe what you will, that’s the facts jack. sure it’s a small sampling, but I think it shows what we already know. People in this county do not want illegal aliens in their neighborhood.

elena and alanna do launch some attacks against folks, but then they are deleted. Then they silently support attacks through their buddies moon-howler and KG. They are the stormtroopers of this blog, when they get nasty their posts mysteriously disappear into the woodwork. When they get too nasty they put the dogs in the cage for awhile until things cool down then they are let back out again.

TME, bull. Elena and Alanna do not launch attacks against folks nor do I. My posts have never been removed. And I will be here each and every day, out of my so called cage, to nip you where it counts when you lie.

I have attacked you, if that is what you want to think, when you have been crude and nasty and when you have attempted to incite others by making prejudicial remarks.

If I am a stormtrooper in your eyes, then I take a bow. Someone needs to be when people such as yourself come here to simply piss the regulars off and to insult others.

Actually Elvis, we don’t owe you any explanations.

Does this seem like the Backyardigans or what? Here we have Tickle Me Elvis and Stormtrooper Moon-howler. Where are Uniqua, Austin, Tasha, Tyrone, and Pablo?

Elena, pick out your new name.

Stormtrooper MH

I thought maybe it was Madame MoFo, the antibvbl pit bull and alter-ego of someone who clearly has admin rights to this blog. Or I guess you could keep going by “Elena”

TME,
Yes, let’s see your proof. I’m sure there are plenty here that could start throwing up there comments that have been deleted from BVBL.
Emma,
Very funny and dead wrong about MM being Elena.

elvis,

just got back from the store people, I talked to exactly 16 people inside the store (including the clerks). Each one (three of them were hispanic looking) said they would prefer that illegal aliens were deported.

Did you talk to the hundreds of people who spoke out against the resolution on October 16. I think they outnumbered the HSM people by about 4 to 1. Don’t you think that is a more accurate guage?

SA @ 9:11,
Ever hear of ’squatters’ rights’? They came in they stayed, you did nothing, now they have a stake in the property.

Thanks for schooling Elvis once again ladies.

Lying is Elvis’ good side. Bigotry is his bad side. And he has no other. He is our prize example of how the Anti-immigrant Lobby only manages to convince Freedom Fry Voters.

Oh well, that’s how I see this whole illegal immigration affair, and I don’t think I’ll ever change my mind. That’s how I perceive the nation and community to operate, and so when people do what they aren’t allowed then actions must be taken. It keeps life very simple and reduces anxiety, not to mention tons of wasted discussions, to a minimum. Make the rules, obey the rules, and everything is fine. Don’t like the rules, then work for change, but then obey whatever is the result. Pretty simple, unless of course you have a problem with rules.

SA, here’s a scenario for you. What happens when I go to your gym and ask about membership. You say, “Sure – fill out the application form and give me your deposit. Your membership card will arrive in the mail shortly.” But it doesn’t arrive. I go back to the gym. You say you remember me but that the paperwork must be misplaced or the membership card is in the mail. Wait and it’ll arrive – if not, come back in and fill out the application form again. But this time the terms of membership have changed. I’ve paid. I’ve played by your rules but now you’re changing them.

Chris, I may be wrong about Mofo being Elena, but I’m dead on that she has admin privileges and goes by another moniker, too. Prove me wrong.

Emma, why do you care who anyone is? Let’s talk about who you are. It doesn’t matter who I am. I could be many different people, or I could be myself. Let’s me let you in on a little secret. I know why you want to know. It is very obvious. ssssshhhh.

And you don’t think I went through appropriate channels? You’re pretty smug, aren’t you? I will count this as yet another threat. Congrats for proving my point on this thread.

I missed the threat…and any threat ever posted. Where is it?

And kindly don’t insult my intelligence, MoFo, by removing your threat to me from the other thread. I made screen shots of that long ago.

Segundo Alamo,

Check out all the stories linked to on the left side of this web page:

http://www.hispanictips.com/

That is why all your efforts are fruitless.

Twinad, MoFo is making a very foolish and misguided attempt at blackmail, plain and simple. But “illegal” is only a relative concept here, isn’t it?

Second Alamo

Your gym story is interesting. Alternate ending….

The gym owners notice some less fortunate kids are sneaking in and using the equipment. Being a compassionate AND REALISTIC guy, he pulls them aside. He explains to them that this is a business that he is running and has obligations to his family and the bank to make it work. He recognizes their plight, realizes they live close by and decides to barter with them for the privilige of using the gym. Those kids that are willing to do some work around the place are granted use of the gym. Those that don’t want to do it are simply dismissed and kicked out. Word gets out. Lessons learned by all.

Emma let’s not get into the “I accuse you of being X” business. Whatever has made you so frustrated that you resorted to this, it really isn’t your job to start down that path. Alanna and Elena have the info on ALL of us due to I.P. addresses but the only person who even got a whif of being called out was one who had broken a cardinal rule. I’m thankful that I am able to post anonymously. Otherwise I might never have been able to say how I feel. We are in the same boat I assume. Don’t rock it please.

Speaking of grocery stores, I went to five today looking for Carnaroli Rice. Thought we were diverse here. Couldn’t find it. I did find about 38 people I thought needed to self deport. This is really an economic thing you know – the lack of good education and opportunities to learn manners….. A grown woman chomping on some chemically ridden powdered doughnut thing sucking noisily on a container of something green (neither paid for yet) while glaring around at folk who are staring at her in line. She offers her half chewed item to the clerk to scan. Lovely experience. Why wouldn’t she expect people to stare at her with “eeeuuuwww” on their faces??

Anyone know where I can find Carnaroli Rice? Want to make risotto and STAY AT HOME. You folks in Fairfax have any nice Italian grocers?

Wegmans has it listed on their website…don’t know if the local store has it in stock though.

Thanks Censored. One of the five I visited. I asked a few people we couldn’t find it. They were pretty nice there.

Juturna, I know you said Fairfax, but there is an Italian store in Arlington, called (drum roll) The Italian Store. It’s on Lee Highway. I know it has some grocery products (along with the sandwiches and other prepared food it sells. You might call and ask. 703-528-6266. Also what about Whole Foods?

Will call the Italian Store – my husband is in the area during the week. Might never see him again if they sell prepared food. Didn’t think of whole foods. I cringe to think how much gas I spent looking for rice.

Thanks!!

Emma,
I don’t need to prove jack to YOU or ANYONE else for that matter. You are the one that made the accusation. The burden of proof is on you. If you don’t like here, why bother?

Mackie,

Where are you?
Another article, I found for you

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_wa_unwarranted_arrest.html

Mackie,

More to the story…

http://www.thenewstribune.com/331/story/436614.html

Emma,
I don’t recall reading any threats or blackmail? Can you please provide details?

Hi Red Dawn,

I’m checking out the articles you linked to. I actually just finished watching this masterpiece of a movie I highly recommend. It’s a 1969 french film about the French Resistance during world war two. It’s truly gripping. Unlike many films nowadays, the characters of the film are not invincible action heros. They’re just people struggling to make a difference under dangerous conditions. Their greatest weapon is their courage.

It’s called Army of Shadows or in french, l’armee des ombres. The opening quote set the tone for the movie:

mauvais souvenirs,
soyez pourtant les bienvenus…
vous etes ma jeunesse lointaine…

Unhappy memories,
Yet I welcome you…
You are my long-lost youth…

Here’s the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on38oTESbHU

Red Dawn,

I read the articles. I hope Lagrand Jones is successful in clearing his name from these false charges. In a just world, filing false charges against a US Citizen would be a crime. Unfortunately, we’re not living in a very just state of affairs. patriots like Lagrand Jones have to create the justice, at great risk to themselves.

I don’t expect much justice from the police. They are hired guns who mostly see the constitution as an obstacle, as is evidenced by the articles you cited. Judges, on the other hand, are removed from the situation on the street. They are the protectors of our rights and freedom. They are an essential branch of our government that should be acting as a check on the others. I wish this judge had thrown the case out. It’s unfortunate that he’s allowing it to go to trial.

Mackie,

Here’s to our MISUNDERSTOOD ( all in HUMOR) Youtube clips….LOL, I knew you would like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYgXxIgrXMs

Mackie,

If you feel the police are hired guns, what is your opinion of the military?

Chris,

I am one of those people who has had stuff removed from BVBL, and most was for some pretty innocuous stuff. I never got why Greg removed it, but I didn’t want to engage in an email battle with him. I think I am now banned since none of my posts are counted in the response count anymore. It occurred after his posted topic, in which he called both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama narcissists. I posted something like, “Narcissists, huh? Methinks one shouldn’t throw stones…”, and it was promptly removed.

DG,

The common denominator that brought us all together was, in one way form/shape we were banned/censored. The FLAW was some of us had a cometary, compared concerns, stories and notes.

The rest is history…and I will ONCE again PLUG AWCHENEY and the birth of her blog for the reasons why….

Go shake rattle and roll……

http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/06/24/onefortheroads-duplicitous-nature/

http://scheney.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/entering-the-fraywith-trepidation/

I think we’ve done a good job on “What is AntiBVBL?”. Now it’s time for a new topic: “What was BVBL?”

I say “was” because it clearly has lost its mojo in recent months.

I would compare it to a poor man’s Fox News. The relationship between Republican leadership and Fox News is very much like that of Corey Stewart and Greg Letiecq, who keeps tight control on the content of BVBL, while pretending it is a forum for the exchange of ideas. Now that the censorship has been exposed, the blog has no power, because we all know it repreents the deranged views of the least respected person in Prince William County, intended to boon the political ambitions of the second least respected person in Prince William County.

But back in the day, BVBL was considered a mirror of public opinion, not one man’s warped and myopic hate implosion. We thought that the majority of voters in the county were for clones de Greg.

This is why I think of Freedom Fries, and why I so love the term Freedom Fry Voter.

What BVBL did was motivate the Freedom Fry Voter.

NotGregLetiecq,

“I think we’ve done a good job on “What is AntiBVBL?”. Now it’s time for a new topic: “What was BVBL?””

With NO disrespect BUT are you serious? If a good job was done of WHY Antibvbl was established…

I will admit I forgot about the french fry crap…BUT how many times can you re-hash the brown?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_yDWQsrajA

???????????????????????????????????????????

I give up…Mackie, you know how to get in touch with me

NotGregLetiecq, I first stumbled across BVBL during its Steve Chapman phase. One of my husband’s coworkers told him about it. I read it for a couple days, thought the site too looney, and filed it under the “far rightwing nut” category. At some point I started reading again before Nick Miroff’s article appeared in the WaPo. The thought that this lunatic site could be driving PWC’s policy was appalling and I decided to voice an opposing opinion. A censored opinion but an opinion non the less.

The downfall is merely classic ego-driven overreaching.

Censored, can you provide a link to the Nick Miroff article? I love it! “The downfall is merely classic ego-driven overreaching.” Priceless!

elena,

this is bull. you post peoples information online then delete it after they have enough time to pull it down, then go on a tirade telling people not to do it. too many of the lies and/or false-truths here. I used to think KG was a detestable individual but you are far worse. at least she’s up front with her attitude, you go in the back door like a snake in the grass.

alanna, dont know what to think about her. honestly I think she’s just another hanger-on like moon howler.

Elvis, get a life and be thankful you never showed your face at any party or screening.

We’ve known since the beginning that you had no argument, no knowledge of the subject, and no rhetorical skills. “No credibility” came soon after with your outrageously bigoted remarks one after another.

It’s obvious you can’t win by talking about the issue because people here are too well informed. Go back to the smelly bathroom if the best you can do for misinformation is “I went shopping.” That is HILARIOUS.

I would have laughed at you quietly li’l Elvis, but you’re being such a poor loser. Sorry!

I really cannot say what BVBL is because I’ve been on it like twice. Apparently, I am one of their favorite people to hate but since hatred runs rampant, I’m in solid, hated company. Apparently, too, some people love to rant and rave about me personally when they know nothing about me. I suppose I could claim defamation of character, but what’s the point? They defame many people and you can’t prove any substantial loss from it (unless the prevent you from getting a job, I suppose). Besides, who has money or time for lawyers?

I don’t see HSM as being separate from BVBL. The blog and the group have the same leader. If I ran my own community group, I would be damn careful what I published on my blog. But then, I am not running my own group nor am I anything other than a citizen. The same can be said for the rest of us here—Alanna and Elena run a blog, not a group. They do a fine job of it, too, I might add.

What does Freedom Fry mean exactly?

It is time to start ignoring the trouble makers. Elvis was warned. He is once again starting to just be offensive because he has run out of things to say.

Shunning time.

The Nick Miroff article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/21/AR2007072101355.html

Moon-howler,

If you feel the police are hired guns, what is your opinion of the military?

Hopefully, we won’t have to suffer martial law in the future but all the indicators are pointing in the wrong direction. We came close in New Orleans but thankfully, martial law was never pronounced.

On the police front, most people express indignation over what happened to Luis Ramirez who was beaten to death in Shenandoah, PA. However, most people fail to recognize that when the police arrived on scene, they had an eye witness to the crime who personally knew the perpetrators and knew in which direction they fled. Yet, the police did nothing for days. The immediate response would be to arrest the suspects in order to preserve the DNA evidence (Luis’s hairs/skin embedded in their clothes, shoes, fingernails). The police would also want to separate them before they had a chance to come up with story. When people are interrogated separately, they are much more likely to make mistakes.

Now that these murderers have eliminated the DNA evidence, they are actually going to plead not guilty. And they will get away with it. Without the help of the police, that would not have been possible.

Moon-howler, why do you think the police refused to arrest them until after they had enough time to destroy the DNA evidence and meet together to get their story worked out? They had an eye witness who personally knew the perps didn’t they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0vsbWjFlSo

I don’t know, Mackie. I was growing up in the days when Frank Serpico had been a national hero. I had hoped that things had gotten much better. I feel that law enforcement officers are far more professional than they were back then. No profession is without a bad apple or 2.

I suppose my original question extended beyond the borders of the USA.

I have worked with many retired military people. I get the feeling that my jaundiced eye is there, rather than cops.

Moon-howler,

I don’t know, Mackie.

You don’t know huh? Are you sure that’s not a ‘cop-out’? Did you ever see the movie mississippi burning? What do you think motivated the small-town police in that true-story? Could it have been racism? I guess we should try your way and wait until the police come forward with a full confession. Just like the south got rid of Jim Crow laws all by themselves because they had a change of heart, huh?

The murder happened on july 12 and the murderers weren’t arrested until july 25. The following article should help illuminate why the police were willfully negligent here. It is and excellent article by someone who lives right next to shenandoah.

http://needcowbell.blogspot.com/2008/07/hate-murder-and-football.html

Here’s an quote from the article about the mentality of minorities. A mentality and fear white people usually don’t care to understand if understanding means they have to start challenging the institutions around them.

You see, it’s much more comforting to say to yourself ‘It’s only one or two bad apples after all.’. It’s much more comforting until someone you love is dying in the street like an animal.

I bet a lot of people in Shenandoah truly do not understand how this possibly could’ve happened in their community. They’re good hearted, well intentioned people who have never had to see things any other way, because life has always gone along according to their way, and they don’t even know it. I can well imagine how this has torn through this little town.

I also know there are plenty of people there who know exactly why this happened. People of color who have to be hyper aware of their white neighbors’ approval and comfort level every day of their lives. You can bet they’re under no illusions.

Moon-howler, do you think latinos in Shenandoah are as confident as whites that they can expect justice from the police?

And if they can’t expect the police to protect them, what should they do to survive?

Mackie,

Frankly, I prefer to keep my mouth shut on issues I don’t have time to read, digest, and give some thought to. Frankly, the best advice I can give you is to discuss it with someone who doesn’t mind being insulted if they disagree with you or don’t immediately jump on yur bandwagon. I really don’t have time for cop bashing. This is your cause, not mine. You didn’t appear to have any interest in my question about the military, our National ‘Cop,’ so I guess any attempt to have a dialogue with you was really a waste of time. I won’t repeat the mistake.

I don’t bash cops. I bash people who violate the rights of others.

Mackie, if you don’t bash, what about these quotes below of yours made without any supporting proof or documentation? If one makes such careless statements, others may call it “bashing”. Imagine the careless statements one could make about illegal aliens without supporting documentation…oh wait, that’s called BVBL….isn’t it?

“I have no problem with cops who have the morals to do their job and respect our rights at the same time. Unfortunately that’s about 2percent of the force. Even the so-called good ones aren’t so good when they cover up the crimes of the bad ones.”

Where is the supporting documentation showing the 2 % good and 98% bad? I must have missed that article in my legal defense quarterly.

or this one

Mackie, 20. July 2008, 0:51
I wasn’t going to bring this up but I had a long conversation today with a constitutional lawyer who has presented cases before the Supreme Court. He told me that in his opinion, police officers perjure themselves 90% of the time on the witness stand.

Again, where is the proof? Some nameless lawyer saying something? Now there’s something to base your statment on…

I have more if you’d like…

Okay. looks like we have some folks that can’t or won’t follow through on their comments, questions or accusations. Here we are not afraid to face things head on. (Now there’s an attribute of the souls on Anti). It’s not the end of the world to be wrong about something guys. In fact its pretty liberating and actually makes you look smarter for it.

Man up. I heard that once and thought it was terribly macho and it seems appropriate here.

Mackie, those stastics are obviously figures of speech without any basis. They express how you feel when you read about a poorly investigated hate crime. Am I right? You feel pain because of the Shenandoah murder. So do I as a person of color and as a human being. I wish there was something I could do, but if I did it wouldn’t be to lash out at all police officers because of the actions of a few. I know you are upset, but think about it. Thinking ill of a whole class of people because of the actions of a few? Isn’t that the definition of the very prejudice we seek to overcome?

This is a PWC blog and in PWC we respect the police profession as The Blunder Twins (Stewart and Letiecq) and their remaining clones found out a few months ago.

Statements like the ones Lucky Duck quoted back above make me wonder if you are a double agent from the dark screen trying to create rifts in the broad coalition we have formed here, across party and ethnic lines.

Not going to work if that’s your aim. If you are truly one of us, I humbly request you retract those remarks.

Mackie, look. I’ve had minor run-ins with cops as well as ex-cops and even those haven’t ruined my overall perception of them. Yeah, there are jerks out there. There are jerks EVERYWHERE! But the fact remains, if you call a cop in this county, you probably are going to get a professional who wants to do his/her job the best s/he can.

The public sees cops when the bad stuff is going on—and that’s bad because it makes us believe cops are bad, that they are “out to get us” or are under the influence of criminals. We see television shows that glorify or vilify cops so some of us end up expecting cops to be super-sleuths, Barney Fife, or “good cop gone bad.” (I won’t even bother sharing with you some of my past, fantastic notions of what I thought cops were and were not. Suffice to say, none of them were based in reality.)

I’m not sure why you are on this cop topic, Mackie, unless you are some kind of anarchist. And if you are, well, okay. Most of us are not. When we are discussing the police in this forum, we are doing so within a context, and it seems you have lost that context along the way because you simply don’t like cops. Again, that’s fine if that is your opinion. But it’s not really relevant.

Oh and one more thing. In this county, since Anti and the general public have openly appreciated the police department and Chief, it would be very odd if the police suddenly turned overtly racist since they have earned a good reputation. If anyone is to be blamed for the Hispanic and immigrant communities distrusting police, it is the BOCS who began the fear mongering through the resolution.

Yes, KG and my point to Mackie is that the generally accepted outcome of racial profiling is the number of lawsuits. PWCPD has had none, nada, zip, zed filed. If his percentange of 2% were even close to the truth, we’d have 550 officer running amouk abusing the good folks of PWC. Absolutely not true. And ZERO lawsuits……..

There are good and bad people everywhere. Are we just getting up to speed on this? I agree that those that hold public trust are and should be held to a higher standard. However, once again, we seem to hold those we are willing to pay the least to a higher standard than those we pay more. Do I think that politician x should be paid higher than a detective or a teacher??? And we wonder why…….

Get what you pay for. I’ve been saying that for 13 months. Wake up everyone. Wake up.

Lucky Ducky,

When people don’t like the message, they always attack the messenger. Some even gone so far as to keep a running log of everything said.

However, I noticed your silence about the willful criminal negligence of the police in Shenandoah that I raised above. They allowed murderers to get away, destroy DNA evidence, and prepare their stories for the police.

Instead of chasing the murderers, they roughed up and handcuffed the latino friend who tried to break up the fight and even searched his car for a ‘gun’…but we all know they were looking for anything to nail him on.

Even though they had an eyewitness who personally knew the perpetrators, knew their names, knew their addresses, and could easily pick them out of a lineup…the police refused to arrest the perpetrators for over a week.

I wonder if the police would have refused to arrest the perpetrators if the guy lying on the sidewalk dying had been a police officer?

When the message includes statistics that can’t be verified, the messenger should be attacked. That’s called a lie.

Back to being a victim, eh? Stay there, it works better for you.

Mackie, unlike you, I do not report on what I do not know and I don’t make things up and classify them as “facts”. I don’t even tangle with your screen name as you do mine.

I commented several threads ago that I felt what happened in Pennsylvania was a shame and unforgiveable. That is my opinion. I don’t have any facts about the investigation so I what can I say that is “true”?

Was DNA collected? I don’t know, but you seem to know it wasn’t. How is that so?
Were interviews conducted of all suspects and witnesses? I don’t know, do you?
Were items of clothing collected, perhaps with trace evidence (hair/fibers)? I don’t know, do you?

So what else can I comment on that I know is true? Some times “no comment” is best until the facts are all known.

I wil say that initial actions by the police are done out of not yet knowing many facts. Have you ever been on a a scene where there is total chaos? Where people are injured or dead or bleeding? Where others are screaming and you are not quite sure what has happened? Where you, arriving in the midst of chaos are not yet sure who is right or wrong? Not quite sure who is friend or who is foe? I imagine instinct takes over and some times instincts are correct and some times they are not. Split second judgments that we all get to sit here and analyze several weeks after those few minutes.

Your statements and “facts” are outlandish and unsupportable. I notice you still have not produced support or admitted your error. I have not attacked the messenger, I have simply asked him/her to prove what what said. Once again, you have failed.

Your true colors are obvious to me.

Mackie just say you’re sorry so we can go back to our usual conversation.

Lucky Ducky,

I wil say that initial actions by the police are done out of not yet knowing many facts. Have you ever been on a a scene where there is total chaos? Where people are injured or dead or bleeding? Where others are screaming and you are not quite sure what has happened? Where you, arriving in the midst of chaos are not yet sure who is right or wrong? Not quite sure who is friend or who is foe? I imagine instinct takes over and some times instincts are correct and some times they are not. Split second judgments that we all get to sit here and analyze several weeks after those few minutes.

Amazing.

If the guy convulsing, foaming at the mouth, and dying in the street had been a police officer…a little birdie tells me that the perpetrators would have been hunted down and arrested that very night.

No doubt.

Elena,

I think Lucky Ducks point in the “broad brush”tactic, is that it can be turned around and “mis”used against undocumneted workers, that has been Gregs tactic, and very successful one I might add.

Lucky Ducky’s intention here is to look for ways to discredit the messenger in order to shift attention away from the message. Nobody here needs to agree with me on any issue, but for some (perhaps official) reason, Lucky Ducky has assigned themselves the task of smearing my name. From comparing me to a dancing 12 year old girl (a quite strange choice of comparisons) to trying to associate me with certain tactics, his goal is to focus on me so that focus is drawn away from what I’m saying. Only she/he can answer why.

And you keep trying to interpret my words in some way to make them look like an attack on Chief Deane. That is quite odd considering I’ve barely said anything about him except to say that he is a decent man who would have sent a much stronger signal if he had resigned in protest. I don’t think my statement is inaccurate.

My perspective may make some people uncomfortable, but a little discomfort oftentimes accompanies a new perspective. Discomfort does not equal injustice. However, complacency in the face of injustice can hurt people…as you pointed out in your first speech before the BOCS on this issue. Luckily we still have a media that believes in holding officials accountable for their actions. Tellingly, the local paper in Shenandoah met with official resistance when trying to cover the story:

When a reporter initially asked to gain access to the incident log in the locked police station Thursday, borough Manager Joseph Palubinsky questioned why The REPUBLICAN & Herald wanted to see it.

“I think The REPUBLICAN has done enough damage already,” Palubinsky said. Palubinsky did not clarify his concern regarding reporter access to the log or how specifically the newspaper’s coverage of the high-profile homicide on a public street had been damaging.

Police departments like the Shenandoah, PA police are sending a strong positive signal to the Robert Duecaster’s out there. If not for the national spotlight, actions indicate that the Luis Ramirez case would have been swept under the rug. Our complacency about injustice also emboldens people like Robert Duecaster. He continually posts on BVBL that people should be stocking up on ‘guns and ammo’. And he has publicly stated that he intends to ‘repel this invasion one way or another’. The number of people who feel the same way that he does is growing and growing. After the next massive terrorist attack inside the US, does anyone doubt that the minutemen on the border will begin to shoot immigrants on sight?

The antidote is accountability.

Police departments like the Shenandoah, PA police are sending a strong positive signal to the Robert Duecaster’s out there. If not for the national spotlight, actions indicate that the Luis Ramirez case would have been swept under the rug. Our complacency about injustice also emboldens people like Robert Duecaster. He continually posts on BVBL that people should be stocking up on ‘guns and ammo’. And he has publicly stated that he intends to ‘repel this invasion one way or another’. The number of people who feel the same way that he does is growing and growing. After the next massive terrorist attack inside the US, does anyone doubt that the minutemen on the border will begin to shoot immigrants on sight?

Mackie, that’s precisely why I feel that Chief Deane should NOT have resigned in protest. His resignation is what many of the Black Velvets wanted because he stood in the way of their agenda. I don’t want a county police chief who thinks along the line of Robert Duecaster. Perhaps Shenandoah, PA has one that thinks that way – that will remain to be seen as I feel confident that that situation will be looked into more deeply.

Again Mackie you hold others to a standard you won’t hold your self to – accountability.

Censored,

Mackie, that’s precisely why I feel that Chief Deane should NOT have resigned in protest. His resignation is what many of the Black Velvets wanted because he stood in the way of their agenda.

They did not want him to resign, they wanted to fire him. There’s a big difference.

If he had resigned it would have sent a very powerful signal to the whole county and the BOCS There is a chance it would have killed the resolution right there.

They did not want him to resign, they wanted to fire him. There’s a big difference.

I think the result would have been the same. They, the Black Velvets, would have claimed that he’d been forced out regardless of what he had said. At that point you would have had to rely on the BOCS to stand up against Letiecq and I don’t think they, the BOCS, were there yet.

Mackie

Not everyone runs.

Juturna,

Not everyone runs.

I suppose Lt. Ehren Watada ‘ran away’ too…

Mackie

Just what are you attempting to accomplish? You have some very thought provoking ideas, but on this topic you are not making any headway or making people think. Do you want to convince everyone that Lucky Duck is a cop? The what, beat him up for it? Do you think Chief Deane is part of the 2% or the 98%?

What is your goal??? We all agree that there are good and bad everywhere.

Guess I am spitting into the wind – you don’t answer questions.

Juturna,

I’m not trying to accomplish anything or establish anything. I’m only sharing my point of view. And I don’t know why people keep recasting my ideas as an attack on Chief Deane when I’ve barely said a word about him. I only brought the subject up because Elena above sounded like she thought I was attacking Chief Deane and I wanted to clarify that I wasn’t.

Not if you’re Luiz Ramirez.

Mackie, I’m curious. Have you had negative experiences with the police personally? I’m asking because sometimes those experiences compel us to really research a topic and dive head-first into it. I hear a lot of people asking what your motives are. I guess I’m kind of asking that as well, but it’s more like, “why do you hold the perspective you do?”

KG,

What happened to me is too difficult to write about. I’ll never forget it. Luckily I had a video camera at the time and it can tell the story…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkc2KinHWiM&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxODBppps18

Cont:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MWSGbh-bi4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4wUwk7-7Vc

Katherine asked a serious question and got a distasteful answer. Not funny and not appropriate on so very many levels, IMHO.

Sorry to offend your sensibilities but this series is hilarious. These are comedy skits.

Mackie,

I will be the LONE person that gets and will defend you as I see the HUMOR and you have not shown ME otherwise to doubt. I found it funny but then again humor comes in different forms it IS up to the PERSON to receive and ANALYZE it
Lucky Duck, etc, I would do this for you as I do with the same eyes I do for Mackie, UNTIL PROVEN WRONG Cheers!

Should even include that I have