AntiBVBL

If the material isn’t there in the first place, no one can be MADE to look like a fool by another person.

I would like to hear more about the film’s role in the Sundance Film Festival. Maybe there will be a new Sundance Kid.

Kipp Hanley has written a very sloppy article. Annabel clearly said at the beginning of the program that the version that is being screened is NOT the feature version that they will be submitting to festivals. What screened on Friday is a long video about the changes to the Resolution. Don’t forget that they have over a hundred videos.

Another thing is that he completely missed the point that the filmmakers no longer saw the issue as having 2 sides. And, I see a perspective in the film, but not “bias” which suggests a distortion of reality. Instead of elaborating on what he means by bias, he just quotes people.

This is why we can’t rely on mainstream reporters to get anything right.

NGL,

I don’t see how anyone could even attempt to squeeze this issue into just 2 sides. In fact, the minute a person says they are on a ’side,’ I feel they have painted themselves into a corner. That is why it is so critical to be able to have open discussions about illegal immigration as it pertains to the nation’s law, neighborhoods, infrastructure, and yes, human beings. How could all of these components fit into a ’side?’

FAIR has a ’side,’ an answer for everything and they can be heard anywhere in the United States. Same rhetoric, as Mackie pointed out on the other thread. It will be great knowing that people will see another side to Prince William County other than what FAIR wants them to see. Thanks Eric and Annabel for documenting this snippet of Prince William history. And yes, thanks to them, we will survive.

Maureen says the film makes Corey Stewart look like a fool. I don’t see how the film can do that given Corey Stewart IS a fool and most of us already know it.

Btw, Maureen and the HSM army officers will never see eye-to-eye with anyone who disagree with the world according to HSM.

NGL, that really was a startling mistake on Hanley’s part. Even if he hadn’t heard the comment you report from Annabel, how could he imagine that what he was seeing would be submitted to Sundance? Does it mean he never looked at 9500 Liberty’s site? Could he possibly think a doc would be submitted to Sundance and leave out things of the nature of Greg’s Gospel speech, confrontations at the sign, day-laborer ruminations, the marathon BOCs meeting, etc. etc. These are experienced filmmakers and I would guess they will create a documentary with a dramatic arc that will resonate beyond PWC.

I do think the board proceedings also have drama that will grip people who have no idea who these supervisors are. There was a short documentary that won the Oscar early this year called “Freeheld” which was all about veteran police lieutenant dying of lung cancer who fought back against her town’s council when it refused to allow her to leave her pension benefits to her female partner. It was an effective example of making municipal proceedings very compelling to outsiders.

Assuming Hanley reads this blog (not necessarily a safe assumption!!!), I would love to see a comment from him on why he thought that was the gist of the upcoming film. However NGL, I wouldn’t damn mainstream reporters the blanket way you did just because this particular one must have been daydreaming or texting or worse, absent, while Annabel talked.

Leila,
You’re right. I shouldn’t condemn all mainstream reporters. It’s just that I’ve yet to read an accurate article about the changes to the Resolution. I heard someone say that these reporters do little investigation. They turn quotes and press releases into stories without investigating the facts. I’m frustrated that they quote Corey Stewart and Greg L all the time without questioning the veracity of their spin.

MH,
I always think you’re right.

Alanna,
I will think about your post and come back later to reply.

Alanna should never be in this position! Thank goodness she is out there though, to reassure families who have been victims of crime. Having to do this takes its emotional toll though and it must stop. It sounds like there needs to be an anonymous hotline for Latinos who have been victims of crimes and who now don’t trust the police. There are some smart people contributing to this blog. What can be done to realistically to regain the trust of the Latino community or to at least reassure them that they can report crimes without endangering their families?

Think about it and perhaps Alanna will put up a dedicated thread about this current situation later today or tomorrow.

NGL, Thanks. I wish I were always right. I have spent a life-time working on being able to admit it when I am not right

Moon-howler, I think it’s time Nancy and John asked Chief Deane to do another outreach program (or two or three or more) for the Hispanic community. They’re in a position to know where best to hold a meeting.

“I have been sought out for advice on whether or not individuals should contact the police to report crimes. Let me tell you, this is not something I want to continue to be involved with. I didn’t sign-up for this. I don’t want people coming to me telling me about the disgusting crimes and asking me what I think they should do.”

Illegal entry is a crime. Once we get to the point that people understand there is no future committing this crime, and go back to their home countries, you won’t be confronted with this situation Alanna. Meanwhile :

A. People aren’t being deported because they REPORTED crimes or were victimized. Nothing the people or police of PWC have enacted makes this a likely scenario. If you want to make the arguement that we need to enact or change laws and policies because a subgroup of segregated people have a misunderstanding, I don’t agree.

B. Apologists for illegal aliens do them a disservice. You should stop trying to make them feel welcome. There is not a future to be carved out in America by entering illegally. It worked in 1986, but it won’t work again.

Alanna,
I have some ideas. Please, contact me.

Good point, Censored. This issue needs to quickly move past politics and to meet the needs of real people with real problems. I have to admit, I don’t know where to begin.

Rick,

Alanna did not say an illegal alien had contacted her. Don’t assume.

You know, the people of Prince William County, some of them with advanced degrees and law degrees cant get it straight about what the immigration resolution does and doesn’t do. The chairman of the BOCS is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

It makes perfect sense that members of the immgrant community might also find the details to be incredibly confusing. Furthermore, when people speak out and say things such as you state publically, all the more reason for the confusion.

I would assume that if I reported a crime committed against a family member, I might be run out of town. And that is exactly the impression that was meant to be left. Don’t anyone deny it. I have seen hundreds of statements put out there to not only ‘roll up the red carpet’ but also to spread fear and intimidation.

Censored,
I think other Latino churches and other Latino community groups need to request outreach program too. I would really like to think the Latino have more than Nancy and John to rely on to give them information.

“I think it’s time Nancy and John asked Chief Deane to do another outreach program (or two or three or more) for the Hispanic community”

Yeah. And this time, he should spell things out. Make it clear that if they are victims of crimes, they should report it. But also spell out that if caught driving without a license they’ll probably be reported, and so on, and so if they’re ilegal PWC is probably not the best place to settle. Also the Chief should explain to them to what degree his funding is improved when he attacks the problem of illegal immigrants, and is attacked when he ignores it by an angry populace. he should conclude by displaying a map which shows the paths to Fairfax, Arlington, and Montgomery Counties.

Chris, I think you bring up a good point. I may just piss everyone off with this one but from what I have seen from their organization, it seems that they are all about politics (boycotts, demonstrations) and it is in the best interests of MWB to stir things up rather than to bring things down. A political organization gets no where if everyone is happy.

What would MWB stand to gain from trying to alleviate fears in the Latino community? I very well may have mischaracterized this organization. I know very little about them. However, if they operate like every other political activist group I am aware of, then I am right on the money.

The police department under the guidance of Chief Deane has done a very good job of community outreach. However, the mission isn’t over and the rules have changed. I think they need to continue to do what they were doing, that is IF the grand Poobah will not accuse our chief of being a traitor.

MH,
I agree with your assessment organizations & MWB. MBW should have been pushing the point all along. ANYONE AND EVERYONE need to report crimes. I don’t think they’ve done that. I found John to be more focused, and poised. Nancy sounded waaay too emotional. I’m not saying that this isn’t emotional topic.

“Is Maureen Wood of Help Save Manasas a good film critic?”

Good question. But here are ten more questions MJM could have asked itself after seeing this footage that are more interesting, more relevant, and more important to this county that:

1) Who’s idea was it to attack Chief Deane? Letiecq’s? Or Chairman Stewart’s?

2) Why didn’t Letiecq himself show up for the Citizens’ Time showdown on April 1st about whether Chief Deane was guilty of treason? Why crow like a rooster and then send three hens to do the pecking for you?

3) Is Robert Duecaster on to something in this film? Or is he just on something? It almost makes sense when he complains that the “Probable Cause” standard, which was NOT in his original draft, is what killed the Resolution. If so, was this the intention of those who introduced “Probable Cause” into the July 10th amendments to the Duecaster/F.A.I.R. version?

4) “Crackdown gets tougher???” Did the news reporters choose to get the story wrong? Or were they trying to do Corey Stewart a favor? Or, is it possible Corey Stewart told reporters he was frightened that Letiecq and Duecaster would incite vigilante mobs unless they printed his ridiculously false talking points as fact?

5) Is Marty Nohe the butler, or is he really Batman? If Nohe is Batman, then Deane is the butler and Principi is Robin. But then where does that put Mike May? Maybe Mike May is Robin. Anyway, Caddigan is most certainly Wonder Woman. Covington is the Green Lantern. Who is Aquaman? Jenkins of course. Oh, and The GregNCorey show, that should be obvious: they’re The Wonder Twins.

“Destroy Prince William County power: activate!” “Form of… a brainless partisan who has no mind nor care about the future of this county running for Chairman!” “Shape of… a sociopath cult leader who charms women into doing his dirty work and lies through his teeth with a smile!”

6) The Historic 4 to 4 Vote on April 29. Why did Wonder Woman and The Green Lantern (Caddigan and Covington) go with the tax hike Chairman Stewart so pathetically begging them for in order to “put the cameras back in” and thus save the Immigration Resolution’s bacon? Did they know that there were four Supervisors standing firm to block the move (Nohe, Principi, May, and Jenkins). Or were they just taking a chance.

7) How serious was/is John Stirrup about the Anti-Immigrant Lobby’s agenda? Back when it looked like it was THE issue for Republicans, he was all for it. Now that it looks like a wedge issue that splits Republicans, it seems he was all too happy to help the rest of the Superfriends kill the Resolution. The video even shows him blaming Corey for all this lunacy in an off-camera conversation with Caddigan!

Why does John Stirrup still belong to Help Save Manassas if he’s not willing to attack Chief Deane like a good Red Circle Soldier, and he’ll flip his vote to the Superfriends’ side 2 seconds into the marathon recess, leaving Corey Stewart to cry and whimper in the back room begging someone, anyone, to help him get out neutering the Resolution for two hours while the rest of the county waited?

9) What was in the secret packet that Condoleezza Rice gave to Lois Padistoni to help take down Chief Deane? Did Stewart and Stirrup photo copy all 600 pages for the six other Supervisors as Ms. Padistoni suggested? If so, who paid the $1000 Kinkos bill?

10) What was Corey Stewart trying to pull when, in his last ditch effort to make his humiliating defeat look like a victory, he tried to fool Frank Principi into voting against his own initiative to abolish probable cause, defund the cameras, and neuter the Immigration Resolution? Didn’t Corey know all he had to do was lie to the press and the press would get his back?????

Any of those questions would have been more interesting, Mr. Hanley, than letting Marueen Wood drive the focus of your article. But, kudos to Maureen Wood for a clever P.R. move. You pulled a Corey Stewart on the man.

WHWN,
Wow!! Those are excellent questions. Now, if we could only some answers to that “Top Ten” you just posted.

Why crow like a rooster and then send three hens to do the pecking for you?

LOL! That appears to be the MO – race to face the cameras and then leave the little women to do the dirty work. Too bad Maureen didn’t air her complaints during the open discussion session. She and cohorts jumped up and ran. Must not have had the Big Guy’s permission to speak.

I invite you and others to add some questions. Let’s try to get to 20.

Censored, one of the “cohorts” was a staffer for John T. Stirrup, Supervisor for the Gainesville District. See question number 8 that somehow turned into a smiley face by accident.

You people are paranoic. Maureen Wood is an individual who holds office in and chooses to be a member of HSM; that hardly means she is anyone’s “puppet”.

Censored bybvbl, 30. July 2008, 12:00
Sounds like “Scampering Squirrels” to me.

Rick, if Maureen Wood thinks she has what it takes to run for City Council, then she should be able to field a question or two at a meeting she voluntarily attended. Why didn’t she challenge Eric and Annabel’s assessments? I noticed that she and cohorts really bristled at Corey’s suggestion that some of his supporters might be racists.

Question 11:

What does Corey Stewart mean when he says some of my supporters might be racists but I’m glad they’re being vocal now so that I can talk to them and try to calm them down.

Rape suspect has juvenile record of child assaults
By Mike Peters,
A man arrested Sunday for raping a 12-year-old girl in west Greeley had a record of sexually assaulting girls under 15 and spent a year in juvenile prison.

Raul Jesus Mendoza, 19, was listed as a sex offender before the weekend incident, in which he is accused of taking a 12-year-old girl into his west Greeley apartment and raping her.

According to Greeley police records, Mendoza was a juvenile when he was arrested on other child sexual assaults.
He was arrested when he was 16 on a misdemeanor sexual assault charge, which was dismissed. In that case, he was accused of inappropriately touching a girl younger than 15.
When he was 17, according to police records, Mendoza was convicted of sexual assault on a child younger than 15 and sexual assault using force. He was sentenced to two years in juvenile corrections. He served a little more than a year and was released back to Greeley .

At that time, Mendoza was placed on the sex offender list, but not the Web site because of state laws prohibiting juveniles’ names from appearing on the list if they had one conviction.

In the assault last week, Weld District Court arrest warrants state that Mendoza took the girl into a bedroom and forced himself on her, even though the girl “asked him to stop repeatedly.”

The 12-year-old and her sister were at the apartment complex to visit a friend, the warrant stated, when Mendoza took the girl into a bedroom, removed her clothes and raped her. Mendoza also was visiting the apartment, but he lives in another building of the complex.
The victim’s sister went up to the bedroom, according to the warrant, and saw the rape taking place and told Mendoza to stop. The warrant stated the victim later told her sister, “Thank you for stopping him.”
Mendoza’s bond Tuesday was raised to $200,000 from $150,000.
There also is n Immigration and Customs Enforcement hold on him, as agents are checking to see if Mendoza is in the country illegally.

Another point in the film that made Maureen and cohorts bristle was the long-winded Citizens Time footage of Duecaster and the speakers against “illegals”. They scribbled, exchanged comments, and sat up a little straighter in defiance. I surmise they thought Duecaster and company looked bad and that the footage was chosen to portray them in an unflattering light. Duh. Don’t say stupid stuff in public with the cameras rolling if you’re worried about your image. I saw the marathon meeting and those speakers stood out for a reason.

Supervisor Nohe has now been accused of treason on the MJM comments page. I guess anyone who has long term ties to the county and tries to look out for our best interests is a “traitor” and the only Republicans we like in PWC are recent arrivals from out-of-state who prioritize the interests of the Anti-Immigrant Lobby over the future of this county (or the GOP for that matter, which is being torn asunder by these extremists partisans).

WHWN, you mean the comment by the person who obviously knows nothing about film editing/making? The person who must believe that a film arrives intact at the box office exactly as it was shot? “You’ve got 90 minutes of film, Mr/Ms Filmaker, no editing.” With over a hundred youtube videos and a point to explain (how we arrived at a revision of the Immigration Resolution) was there to be no editing? That bright person called Supervisor Nohe, my supervisor BTW, a traitor. How goofy!

The rope that Corey Stewart used to “hang himself” in that video was not edited at all. It was one long piece of unedited film in which he just keeps lying and lying and lying. Can’t blame editing for that.

Question #12

Why does a paid employee of a supervisor travel in a pack with the scampering squirrels? Is there something inappropriate about that? For that matter, why does a supervisor belong to a group like HSM?

Question #13

If some one were to introduce a motion to repeal the resolution, what would the vote look like? Would the same 5 that voted to amend the original resolution vote to repeal it? If not, why?

Going to take a wild stab at a couple of those questions……….

10. Corey was trying to save himself from the wrath of the Great Poobah of the Order of the Red Circle and to save face.

11. Corey couldn’t think up any way to get out of admitting he had racist supporters so he threw them under the bus and figured he could say that of course he wasn’t talking about THEM.
4. The reporters didn’t understand and still do not understand.

Do I get a good grade? huh???? huh???? huh??????

Mr Nohe a traitor?!
LOL! Sounds desperate.
Excellant questions WHWN. They should be submitted to Pot News/MJM as follow up to their article

Poobahs and Superfriends. Isn’t it a shame we are talking about our local government rather than Gilbert & Sullivan and comic books?

Whoa… insanely interesting question, that #13 of Ivan’s. Dakota’s #12 is related:

John Stirrup is still suffering from a pre-McCain hangover, I’m talking 2007 December, when it he’d just won reelection thinking it was a thank-you note from his electorate for introducing the Immigration Resolution, and, thinking that F.A.I.R. and Gospel Greg would soon be crowning Mitt Romney as the Anti-Immigrant Lobby Presidential Candidate.. That didn’t turn out to be the case. McCain stunned the world in New Hampshire.

Now that he’s no longer under the influence, Stirrup is playing it safe. He knows that HSM has a bad reputation thanks to Letiecq’s public meltdowns, but then again, Chairman Stewart is the one who is connected at the hip to Letiecq; not Stirrup. Stirrup is distancing himself from both Stewart and Letiecq right now. Smart play. But at the same time, he can’t afford to insult and enrage Gospel Greg by leaving the group all together. He still has that hangover.

Quetion #13: What would happen if they tried to repeal the Resolution just a few months after neutering it? I don’t know. But the 2007 hangover is not only affecting Stirrup. It affects the other Supervisors as well. No doubt, all of them are fed up with Letiecq, Duecaster, and the more vocal members of HSM. But they also are under the impression that the majority of the 2000 members are still faithful to Gospel Greg. I’m not sure how true that is. The Chief Deane episode seemed to prove otherwise. But the hangover is still with the other Supervisors.

How do I know?

After the April 29th neutering of the Immigration Resolution, no one was willing to stand up and assume responsibility for it, except Principi who is a Democrat. The moderate Republican in PWC still fears the extremists anti-immigrant Republican. Some hangovers take a long while to go away.

Juturna, how do you submit questions to MJM? You mean in the comments? I doubt they read them. But feel free to cut and paste them. Don’t forget 11, 12, and 13.

Chris,

ANYONE AND EVERYONE need to report crimes.

That is naive.

The last time I reported a crime, the first person the police investigated was me, you know, the victim. You see, on one side of the road lived the working class Latinos renting apartments. On the other side of the road lived the wealthy whites in million dollar homes. Guess what side I lived on.
If I had lived on the other side of the road, it would have made all the difference.
I trusted the police in those days. So I called them when I was robbed. Lucky for me, my naivete did not result in my receiving an unjustified criminal record that would have followed me around for the rest of my life.
The following example is exactly why minorities and the poor should exercise great caution when calling the police:
http://policewatch.us/system/page.php?id=339&ratings=1

Alanna said:

I have been sought out for advice on whether or not individuals should contact the police to report crimes. Let me tell you, this is not something I want to continue to be involved with. I didn’t sign-up for this. I don’t want people coming to me telling me about the disgusting crimes and asking me what I think they should do. Never before have I ever been put in this position and I want, I need for it to stop. I’m not the type of person that handles this stuff very well. And, I honestly don’t believe that HSM members would want crimes to go unreported either as it does not benefit anyone in the community.

Alanna, this is a horrible position to be put in. You must have the world on your shoulders. Unless it is a very serious crime I would never call the police under the current conditions. Anything can happen when you call the police. Unscrupulous police officers now have a huge tool to manipulate immigrants into very vulnerable positions. All they have to do is threaten to call ICE, and 90% of the immigrants will say anything the police want.

I heard that nancy lyall said the police were asking children about the status of their parents. If that’s not a crime, I don’t know what is.

WHWN
Letter to editor.

Alanna, 30. July 2008, 8:47
have been sought out for advice on whether or not individuals should contact the police to report crimes.

Alanna, if that is the case, why don’t you use this forum to set people straight? Instead, you and Elena continually perpetrate the view that PWC has a terrible reputation, that businesses don’t want to locate here, that ALL immigrants feel threatened and don’t want to live here. It almost seems as if you are deliberately trying to scare people off just to prove your point. How about setting the record straight, clearly and concisely, about the Resolution so that people WON’T be afraid to report crimes?

If you have as much influence as you say, and you are put in this position so often, I would think it would be a very effective and humane thing to do.

I am going to move these questions down the page. Bear with me. Thanks WHWN. I am just throwing you around like an old blanket now. Easier to see since the questions have scrolled way up the page.

WhyHereWhyNow, 30. July 2008, 11:01
“Is Maureen Wood of Help Save Manasas a good film critic?”

Good question. But here are ten more questions MJM could have asked itself after seeing this footage that are more interesting, more relevant, and more important to this county that:

1) Who’s idea was it to attack Chief Deane? Letiecq’s? Or Chairman Stewart’s?

2) Why didn’t Letiecq himself show up for the Citizens’ Time showdown on April 1st about whether Chief Deane was guilty of treason? Why crow like a rooster and then send three hens to do the pecking for you?

3) Is Robert Duecaster on to something in this film? Or is he just on something? It almost makes sense when he complains that the “Probable Cause” standard, which was NOT in his original draft, is what killed the Resolution. If so, was this the intention of those who introduced “Probable Cause” into the July 10th amendments to the Duecaster/F.A.I.R. version?

4) “Crackdown gets tougher???” Did the news reporters choose to get the story wrong? Or were they trying to do Corey Stewart a favor? Or, is it possible Corey Stewart told reporters he was frightened that Letiecq and Duecaster would incite vigilante mobs unless they printed his ridiculously false talking points as fact?

5) Is Marty Nohe the butler, or is he really Batman? If Nohe is Batman, then Deane is the butler and Principi is Robin. But then where does that put Mike May? Maybe Mike May is Robin. Anyway, Caddigan is most certainly Wonder Woman. Covington is the Green Lantern. Who is Aquaman? Jenkins of course. Oh, and The GregNCorey show, that should be obvious: they’re The Wonder Twins.

“Destroy Prince William County power: activate!” “Form of… a brainless partisan who has no mind nor care about the future of this county running for Chairman!” “Shape of… a sociopath cult leader who charms women into doing his dirty work and lies through his teeth with a smile!”

6) The Historic 4 to 4 Vote on April 29. Why did Wonder Woman and The Green Lantern (Caddigan and Covington) go with the tax hike Chairman Stewart so pathetically begging them for in order to “put the cameras back in” and thus save the Immigration Resolution’s bacon? Did they know that there were four Supervisors standing firm to block the move (Nohe, Principi, May, and Jenkins). Or were they just taking a chance.

7) How serious was/is John Stirrup about the Anti-Immigrant Lobby’s agenda? Back when it looked like it was THE issue for Republicans, he was all for it. Now that it looks like a wedge issue that splits Republicans, it seems he was all too happy to help the rest of the Superfriends kill the Resolution. The video even shows him blaming Corey for all this lunacy in an off-camera conversation with Caddigan!

Why does John Stirrup still belong to Help Save Manassas if he’s not willing to attack Chief Deane like a good Red Circle Soldier, and he’ll flip his vote to the Superfriends’ side 2 seconds into the marathon recess, leaving Corey Stewart to cry and whimper in the back room begging someone, anyone, to help him get out neutering the Resolution for two hours while the rest of the county waited?

9) What was in the secret packet that Condoleezza Rice gave to Lois Padistoni to help take down Chief Deane? Did Stewart and Stirrup photo copy all 600 pages for the six other Supervisors as Ms. Padistoni suggested? If so, who paid the $1000 Kinkos bill?

10) What was Corey Stewart trying to pull when, in his last ditch effort to make his humiliating defeat look like a victory, he tried to fool Frank Principi into voting against his own initiative to abolish probable cause, defund the cameras, and neuter the Immigration Resolution? Didn’t Corey know all he had to do was lie to the press and the press would get his back?????

Any of those questions would have been more interesting, Mr. Hanley, than letting Marueen Wood drive the focus of your article. But, kudos to Maureen Wood for a clever P.R. move. You pulled a Corey Stewart on the man.

I see we have a new word.

A Corey Stewart: definition-

noun:

verb:

Have at it.

Mackie _ enough already on the police until you provide a viable alternative to law enforcement. I find your comments thought provoking but this issue is being overstated. Perhaps you have a particular axe to grind with Police. PLEASE let’s get it out and move one. Although we all likely have a story, it hasn’t made us all cynics – thank goodness

Mackie,
You are niave to base your lack of faith in LEO’s on one incident. Have you just had that one experience to lead to feel the way you do? Would you ever call the police again if you were the victim? What if I saw you walking down the street then saw a gang beat the living shit out of you. Should I call 911 for the police and rescue? Or just leave on the side of the road left to your own devices? What if you saw your mother, wife, daughter or sister become a victim of a crime would you call the police? Were you a regular “ratty” neighbor calling the police department all the time. You may have made yourself a target if you were a nuisance with petty calls all of the time. Like the little boy that cried wolf.
You can’t honestly think are police are more bad than good. Remember, there a bad apples in each and every bunch.

Juturna,

If it’s true that the police are asking children about their parents’ immigration status, I hardly think it’s inappropriate for me to advise that immigrants should not call the police except for very serious crimes.

Mackie,
In what county are the children being asked of their status?
Juturna,
I missed your comments as I was posting. Glad to see you back in action.

Asking kids about the status of a parent, wouldn’t that still fall under hear say?
Also is there not a anonymous hotline to call in crime tips?

Mackie, I think that immigrants and people of color SHOULD feel safe to report crimes. But one of the ways in which Corey Stewart / F.A.I.R. / Greg Letiecq talking points hurt the county terribly is that they have succeeded in creating a climate of fear and intimidation, such that any crime statistics we look at in PWC during this period are questionable since 20 percent or more of out population is afraid of the Police.

The reason why I so often convey that the Resolution has made us LESS safe as a county is that those crimes that involve immigrant communities as either victims OR perpetrators are much harder to solve now that we have less witnesses willing to come forward and no victims willing to file charges.

This “frighten and intimidate the immigrants as much as possible in order to look tough” strategy backfires on the community in another way: if immigrants and people of color do not feel they can trust the police, they turn to the local gangs for protection and to settle disputes. This strengthens the hand of criminal gangs, because now the immigrant community has YET ANOTHER REASON not to report or bear witness to crimes.

This has happened in every community where there are poor people, every community where there are ethnic people, and every community where there are immigrants since the birth of our nation. Men and women who make it their business to study law enforcement know that community policing is a vital part of public safety whenever there is a multi-ethnic populace.

Unfortunately, our Immigration Resolution was written by Robert “Disaster” Duecaster, Gospel Greg Leteicq, and that odd-ball racist from F.A.I.R. Mike Hethmon, all of whom have not yet come to terms with the modern day reality of multi-ethnic communities, and yet to do their homework about the best practices that go with policing in such communities.

Red Dawn,

This is how it works.

The police interrogate the child about their parents’ status. The terrorized child divulges that their parents are undocumented. This means nothing in court.

Then the police corner the parents and ask them about their status. At first, the parents try not to answer, then they say yes they are documented. Then the police lower the hammer and say their child confessed otherwise. Terrified and eager to please, the immigrants admit they are undocumented even though you should never admit anything to the police under any circumstances without a lawyer present.

They are now guilty of lying to the police. Their credibility in court is now badly damaged. They might even be charged with obstructing justice. The police now have them by the short hairs.

Here’s some good advice from a lawyer about how the police interrogate people:
http://www.bobbattlelaw.com/library/games-detectives-play.cfm

This “frighten and intimidate the immigrants as much as possible in order to look tough” strategy backfires on the community in another way: if immigrants and people of color do not feel they can trust the police, they turn to the local gangs for protection and to settle disputes. This strengthens the hand of criminal gangs, because now the immigrant community has YET ANOTHER REASON not to report or bear witness to crimes.

And in the meantime, Gospel Greg and cohorts focus on the gang graffiti and get pi$$y when it’s not cleaned up lickety-split, and fail to address the cause of gang involvement in the first place. Just as the mafia settled scores for marginalized people, the local gangs may be drawn into the same role. It’s better for immigrant victims to be able to trust the police. (And Mackie, as an FBI agent’s daughter, I know there are good and bad cops but I believe most of them in PWC fall into the good category.)

Mackie,

I am going to be just plain old blunt. You aren’t convincing anyone of your agenda. I am sorry, I don’t feel the way you do. And, even if I did, I wouldn’t tell you here. I might discuss it with you on anther blog, or in email, but not here.

We are attempting to work with police and other branches of county government to fix what we see as a wrong. I believe your personal agenda here is counter-productive to that goal.

You may feel about law enforcement as you wish. But this group’s goals are not compatible with the idea that law enforcement is a bad thing. You have lots of good ideas. This one just doesn’t belong in this venue.

I say this not to quarrel but to redirect the direction of this thread.

Ok, it is easy to understand why Prince William County residents often
want to upgrade themselves by pretending to be from the City of Manassas,
but this has gone far enough.
– The Bobbitt’s were county residents and the infamous deed was done
in the county — the reattachment and the judicial process took place
in the city – but what jurisdiction got the media whack? PWC trash act up
and Manassas gets a black eye.
– A dozen years later a county resident starts a controversial group, but
does he call it Help Save Prince William? Of course not.
– Mr. Fernandez’s main focus is PWC’s resolution and problems with Corey
Stewart — where does he put up an ugly hateful sign? In Old Town Manassas and the
only person named on it is a former mayor of Manassas.
– Which leads some opportunistic “film makers” to seize this as a breakthough
to bigger things by focusing on a city address – 9500 Liberty St. Of course,
they, Fernandez and most of the folks involved with the various blog wars over
this are PWC residents.
– How about the residents of the Brentsville, Gainesville, Nebasco, and Dogpatch
Districts, etc. keep their mess AT HOME IN PRINCE WILLIAM COUNTY!

The City of Manassas is tired of being “tagged” by your BS.

Moon-howler,

I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything really. I welcome it when people disagree with me. Especially when they disagree very passionately.

I applaud your attempts to work with the police. I wish you luck.

No Mackie, you do not welcome it when people disagree. Read your last thread, you complained when I disagreed with you.

And you once again did not answer Chris’s question. Your typical behavior.

If you have an exact incident that occurred in Prince William County where the childern were asked to reveal the immigration status of their parents, then make a complaint. Call 703-792-7998 – Internal Affairs office for the PWCDP. That is not part of their policy. The Police Department Immigration policy is on the website – read it for yourself.

Put up or shut up.

Lucky Ducky,

Please calm down. Your posts have quickly taken on a shrill and accusatory tone.

Alanna,

What about the human rights lawyer, Lisa Johnson-Firth. Doesn’t she give advice for free in these cases?

if it were illegal to be stupid alanna and elena would be in prison, fluffing lucky ducks feathers and playing with moons howler.

Elvis,

Good play on monikers, I’ll give you that BUT I would debate your argument by saying perhaps Alanna and Elena are SMART because they don’t have to go to prison to play with them in freedom?
Seriously, why do you have to be mean?

Emma,

I don’t feel you are being fair to Alanna or understand her unique position. And she is under no obligation to share with us.

The purpose of this blog was to provide a voice to those who had been cut out of discussion on the dark screen. This blog has grown far more than ever expected and now seems to be a sounding board for local events as they pertain to this immigration Resolution and other related topics.

If it educates while doing what is stated in the above paragraph, good. However, this blog cannot be expected to take the place of human contact needed when families are in severe distress because of being victims of crime.

Of course I like my conspiracy theories, you don’ think…nah, couldn’t be true…..Elvis liked to rock in jail? just in fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpzV_0l5ILI

Everyone is missing an important point of “reality”. An an important point why we need our community leaders to act and take responsibility for the better protection of its citizens.

Crime occurs in Manassas City, but at what changes in the type of crimes, from those of the past? Simply go to the web site for the city and closely study what kind of crime it is, and tell me the citizens in Manassas are safe from it.

I do not know why, but a disporportionate number of the criminals reported come from very specific ethnic groups. It is my opinion it is because these “individuals” in significant numbers in our city and county “lack ethics”. We need to fight this crime and not support it, as some of you on this blog appear to be doing.

http://www.manassascity.org/Archive.asp?AMID=30

Here is a reason for why we need to fight “illegal” immigration.

The “illegal” aliens in the United States have a crime rate that’s
two and a half times that of non-illegal aliens. In particular, their
children, as they become members of gangs associated with “illegal” alien growth are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
Verify at:http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt01.html

Just a quick note friends. I just drove by the Manassas City Hall (HSM meeting tonight). There were 15 cars in the parking lot. It appears that we should change the name from “The Order of the Red Circle” to “The Order of the Red Spot.”

30 percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt01.html

Any IDIOT can see if we prevent “illegal” immigration in our communities, 30 percent less crime will be perpetrated on innocent victims of crime, if we simply remove them and prevent “illegal” immigration. 30 percent of our innocent people will be saved from the support for lawlessness and crime that many of you on this blog are supporting with anarchy and promotion of “lawless behavior” and mis-guided ETHICS.

Ivan,

Thanks for the chuckle! I wondered how many of the heralded 2,000 members would be there! Let’s see, one car for Greg, one for Maureen, and one for Rick Bentley. That means 12 other people in Manassas besides them were there! Stirrup and Stewart, you better listen up to that “majority” of your constituents!

Michael,

I get your concern with the crime rates. However, just because they have a surname does not mean that there is a a group to be chastised, which leads to racial profiling. I know in the past when I posted such instances, I was guilty myself. ( I was more focused on the id theft cases, to tell you the truth)
Sure anyone can find a pattern BUT you have to look at the common denominator and that would be a huge increase of surnames in this area? It seems to me that it is EASIER to zero in on a Hispanic ( middle eastern, Asian) name than one of a white or black?

Ivan, and it’s probably safe to assume a couple cars belong to people eating in the local restaurants or shopping instead of swearing allegiance to the red circle (er…spot).

Twinad,

There is a thing called car polling in these tough economic gas crunching times…gash….LOL

Twinad,

There is a thing called car pooling in these tough economic gas crunching times…gash….LOL

Opps…sorry for the double post..I noticed I spelled pooling wrong first time and tried to retrieve it back screw it, I would have to do that for everything I post

If you do nothing, you are just as much to blame for the collapse of the community and the increase in community problems caused by “illegal” immigration as the criminals and lawbreakers themselves.

If you fight those who fight “illegal” immigration, you will become the lowest of the low, in the hierarchy of the “golden rule”.

Crime and Corruption are the real community problems Annabel and Eric should be shooting in their films. They are actually contributing to the downfall of the community by supporting lawlessness and people who support lawlessness and anarchy.

I hope someday soon another film team attacks them for “MISSING ENTIRELY” the most relevant and crtitical issues caused by “illegal immigration”, that are the crime and corruption and rise to power of people in radical political groups, gangs, corrupt policemen and corrupt politicians, who will FAVOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION BECAUSE of the benefits to crime and corruption ILLEGAL immigration brings.

And how many really active posters are there on this blog? Not much more than 15 probably. So the numbers of really active HSM members to numbers of really active posters on this blog are roughly the same. Both of those numbers don’t mean much. There’s probably a lot more numbers on each side that aren’t being as vocal or as active on this issue.

Red Dawn, I am very careful NOT to zero in on surnames (AND I did not although you assumed I did), but most of the reports actually do zero in on race and ethnic groups, and although I specifically state very clearly that I believe that crimes are entirely the fault of the INDIVIDUALS, not their ethnic group, I can’t help but wonder why the distribution of ETHICS is so skewed? It is my position and opinion that the people who will commit “illegal” immigration, regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnicity, are also the types of people with personal ethics low enough to also significantly commit other crimes. This is why we need to be so concerned about them if we are going to solve our community crime problems effectively, and remove all “illegal” immigrants.

It is for this reason I ONLY focus on those individuals who are “illegal” immigrants and not “legal” immigrants. There is not enough data in the police report to make a legal, vs illegal, judgement call, but their is enough data to question why so many people have such low ethics. I choose to claim it is because a significant number of them are likely “illegal” immigrants, as proven by my previous post with reference from CNN.

Michael,

“If you fight those who fight “illegal” immigration, you will become the lowest of the low, in the hierarchy of the “golden rule” ”

It is not a tug of war. There are other ideas/middle ground.

“I hope someday soon another film team attacks them for “MISSING ENTIRELY” the most relevant and crtitical issues caused by “illegal immigration”, that are the crime and corruption and rise to power of people in radical political groups, gangs, corrupt policemen and corrupt politicians, who will FAVOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION BECAUSE of the benefits to crime and corruption ILLEGAL immigration brings.”

Exactly my point and feel that you contradicted yourself.
WHO decides what is RADICAL?

And thank you for short postings so I can keep up

Anon,

Speak for yourself…there are far more than 15…as far as I know, you were the one that had the multiple names and were outed for doing so!

So the Red Circle is turning into the Red Spot, but then upon closer lock, Spot might be to generous. “Order of the Red Speck.” I like the sound of that.

As always, don’t discredit my “ethics” by claiming I said something I did not say, or assuming something I did not “explicitly” convey. I am very concerned about walking and seeking the “morally just” position, that DOES NOT MAKE this issue one of race, gender, religion, or ethnic group, but one concerned entirely about “illegal” and “legal” behavior, accountable to the ETHICS of individuals. If more of you did this, you would be making the right choices before you open your mouths to support lawbreakers and anarchy over democracy and lawfulness.

All of you wuold suddenly find yourselves with a more ETHICAL position, to stop a significant community problem.

Anon, but no one on this blog is claiming a membership of 2000 people. And I don’t remember anyone actively going to fairs or Old Town festivities trying to recruit anyone.

OK Censored, you make a good point.

Radical: political orientation which favors fundamental, drastic, revolutionary changes in society, literally meaning “changes at the roots”.

Conservatives frequently used the term “radical” as a general-purpose pejorative

Words and phrases are pejorative if they imply disapproval or contempt. The adjective pejorative is synonymous with derogatory, derisive, dyslogistic, and contemptuous. When used as a noun, pejorative means “a belittling or disparaging word or expression”.

Michael,

I am TRYING hard to understand you and I do see common ground, OTHERWISE, I would not be exchanging back and forth with you.
Help me understand by YOU understanding That I did not put words in your mouth.
I RESPONDED back with my opinion of what you threw out.
I do not support lawbreaking, do I break the law, sure ( aware or unaware)…anyone that says they don’t in someway or form is full of shit.

The other night you wanted me to believe that my government has my best interest and I should trust them for everything that they do including The Patriot Act. ( no words in your mouth, MY opinion) You tried to even comfort me and I felt it BUT then you mention above:

“crime and corruption and rise to power of people in radical political groups, gangs, corrupt policemen and corrupt politicians, who will FAVOR”…fill in the blanks….( my words which lead to MY questioning of WHO decides WHO is corrupt/ radical, etc?

I much prefer ethical people over radical people, that many on this blog seem to care little about, preferring lawlessnes and anarchy over democracy and lawfullness.

Ethics is a major branch of philosophy, encompassing right conduct and good life. It is significantly broader than the common conception of analyzing right and wrong. A central aspect of ethics is “the good life”, the life worth living or life that is simply not satisfying, which is held by many philosophers to be more important than moral conduct.

Until legislation or state apparatus enforces a moral order that addresses the causes of resistance these issues will remain in the ethical realm. For example, should animal experimentation become illegal in a society, it will no longer be an ethical issue. Likewise one hundred and fifty hundred years ago, not having a black slave in America may have been an ethical choice. This later issue has been absorbed into the fabric of a more utilitarian social order and is no longer an ethical issue but does of course constitute a moral concern. Ethics are exercised by those who possess no power and those who support them, through personal resistance.

I know you are Red Dawn, it is others, not you who seem to be the most clueless about law and lawlessness, immorality and morality, ethics and lack of ethics in our society, and the effect the bad side of each has on the quality of life for all of us. It is this desire for quality of life we have formed LAW, to deal with those individuals who have no morals, no ethics and through lawbreaking would harm us all with their lawlessnes and support for lawlessness.

The LAW decides Red Dawn, to protect all of us from those who would break it. That is why support for lawlessnes and anarchy is so immoral.

Alanna,

I believe John Stirrup is very serious about the ‘Immigration Resolution’. He has made comments about moving from Arlington County because of the demographic change there and now he sees the same happening in PWC.
Apparently, John believes the Buchanan’s ‘Post America’ mentality whereby we are ceasing to be Americans because of Immigration. And, yes, it’s immigration and not just illegal immigration.
So, while Corey seems to be interested in the political possibilities of such a platform, John, on the other hand, has a true belief in the anti-immigrant platform. His silence is deafening but it’s probably best otherwise everyone would realize his radical ideology.

Thanks Alanna. I thought that was very well put. I am in complete agreement. So much attention has been focused upon Corey but people like Stirrup are heart and soul in lockstep with organizations like FAIR.

Corey just wants votes. But Stirrup wants results.

Micahel,

“For example, should animal experimentation become illegal in a society, it will no longer be an ethical issue.”

FIRST, I am such an animal lover ( STILL paying on bills for my baby:) )

WHO gets to decide what is moral and ethical?

Michael,

( I feel we are doing it again…crossing in posts…lol)

Anyway, speaking of ethic and law,what about the law that protects the patients right such as a living will? Without that signed a patient is subject to the law and the doctors JOB is to keep the patient alive OVER a piece of paper that may not have been filled out in time due to an accident……another spins, I am aware BUT who decides what is right?

Ivan, how can you tell how many cars were parked at Manassas City Hall just by “driving by?” You would have had to drive into the lot to see that. Nothing better to do?

Ivan – you thought that was the REAL meeting? That was just the public front.

The real meeting took place in an underground bunker and was attended by the power brokers of local politics. We all wore masks, “Eyes Wide Shut” style, and a secret password was required for entry past the armed guards.

If what Mackie and Alanna say about Corey and John S is true, then what we have is a man who is basically a nice guy but who would support any measure deemed popular so he can be elected.

On the other hand, we have a man who we think truly believes in his heart he is doing the right thing, even though we find his efforts morally questionable.

Are there good guys and bad guys in this scenario? And if so, who is the good guy? Who is the bad guy? If no good buy, then who is the better of the bad guys?

Rick, I believe I saw a secret hand-shake.

Was there human sacrifice, Rick?

Moon-howler,

“Are there good guys and bad guys in this scenario? And if so, who is the good guy? Who is the bad guy? If no good buy, then who is the better of the bad guys?”

LOL, there is always a market and buyer for everything. When in doubt put it on Ebay, I am sure someone will buy it, like the grilled cheese sandwich

Emma,

“Was there human sacrifice, Rick?”

Or did the new birth start with opening a casket? ( Skull & Bones )

Speaking of strange rituals, when is the next “save the economy” party?

Emma, that is still under discussion. Many people are out of town on vacation right now. Can we count on you to attend?

Rick Bentley, I’m sorry to be the one to point this out to you, but the people posting above calling Help Save Manassas “The Order of the Red Speck” were not expressing fear that the membership list might be filled with “power-brokers.” In a word, they were gloating. Gloating, and also ridiculing Help Save Manassas for lacking power, and lacking membership in the “Real And Actual People” department.

I know you want to join the fun. But since you so grossly misread the point of the sarcasm above, here is a an example on how to respond to a joke you actually get:
“Ivan, you thought that was the REAL meeting? That was just the public front. The real meeting took place in Gospel Greg’s basement, and the planning took place all in his head. I arrived an hour late but was the first name on the sign-up sheet. Gospel Greg was pacing the room, mumbling to himself, something about Chief Deane answering to no one.

I sat down and watched as his slippered feet pushed the dust in piles on either side of the room. Suddenly, he lifted his finger in the air as if an idea had struck, and raced to his computer to type down yet another post on AntiBvbl. It lasted several paragraphs. and another five minutes passed before he noticed me.

“Oh, well hello there. Thank you for coming,” he said. “Did you want to sign a membership form?”

“I’m already a member,” I said, fearing he’d forgotten that I’d often attended several meetings not held in his basement.

“That’s okay,” he laughed with a shrug. “Just put a different name and a different email address. I have to show Corey a list with lots of names or he won’t let me write his mass emails and soundbytes for the media.”

I signed up using my best friend from 4th grade’s name and Greg immediately added it to his database. Then he switched to email and let Corey know the good news: “We’re back in double digits!”

Moon-howler,

If what Mackie and Alanna say about Corey and John S is true, then what we have is a man who is basically a nice guy but who would support any measure deemed popular so he can be elected.
On the other hand, we have a man who we think truly believes in his heart he is doing the right thing, even though we find his efforts morally questionable.
Are there good guys and bad guys in this scenario? And if so, who is the good guy? Who is the bad guy? If no good buy, then who is the better of the bad guys?

Think of Corey as like a mercenary for hire. He gets paid in votes. He’s not really a good guy, nor is he really a bad guy because to be either, you actually have to have convictions. However, he is capable of doing a lot of bad things for the sake of votes.

Think of John Stirrup as Adolph Eichmann. He is a really bad guy. Quiet, efficient, and ruthless. At least Corey can be bought and sold like a used car salesman.

Stirrup, on the other hand, is a sincere foe who will not stop after the election is over.

He will not stop. He must be stopped.

Stewart and Stirrup’s ethics, or lack there of, are less important now. They part of a dying breed. Right wing extremists who have no shame in exploiting prejudice as part of their appeal during campaign season.

Common sense will take them in the right direction on this issue. Otherwise, they will be voted out. Something tells me a flip-flop will be preferable to th at.

Any politician who wants a future in 21st Century America will have to drop the Anti-Immigrant Lobby agenda, and fast. A year from now, the Immigration Resolution in Prince William County will be looked upon with shame and regret. Stirrup will say nary a cross word about Hispanics or any other minority in the 2011 election. And I predict Stewart will have resigned by then.

I am curious about something Michael. Is there a reason you cut and paste narrative passages of someone else’s writing without quotation or attribution and thus suggest the text is your own? I am speaking, to take one example, of the entire second and third graphs of your post at 21:00 on 7/30.

It is very easy to recognize long passages from a Michael-written text. So why beyond your own penchant for repetition do you also feel it necessary to use entire sections of others’ writings without acknowledging you are doing so?

I’ve got the entire Resolution Citizen Time event on DVD. Perhaps I should make up a movie of all the stuttering and stammering that went on from the illegal supporters to show how editing can be used to form a different point of view. Instead of Mr. Duecaster I’ll loop the woman who told the BOCs “kiss my a@@” in Spanish to emphasize the ‘civility’ of the group, and maybe add the outburst from the interpreter for good measure. I’ll show some percentages of how many couldn’t speak a lick of English, and reenforce how often people demanded their ‘rights’ as illegals. It’s fairly simple really, if you gave an eloquent speech but stumbled three times and all one shows is your stumbling then you’re made to look like an idiot even though the unedited version would clearly show you are not.

On another subject. This blog always tried to counter what was on BVBL, so how come nothing on here addressing the gang issue relating to illegals? I guess that’s one huge negative you’d rather not bring up! Blog editing I guess.

Very funny, WHWN.

Segundo Alamo,

Did you speak at citizens time on October 16?

SA,
What would be the point in bringing up gang issues? I can’t see giving them the attention. I honestly don’t think I could stand hearing from yet another bvbl gang ‘expert,’ racing over to inform us of something they heard in some hour-long work shop. I think we can all agree that gangs are a bad thing, regardless of ethnicity.

Dr. Duecaster should be in any video dealing with the Immigration Resolution since he said he wrote it. I think the issue is the content of his speech. For most of us, that is the critical part of his message, not the efficacy of the delivery.

Out-bursts and Ms. Kiss my a$$? Your choice. They were part of the action also. I don’t think we know who did or didn’t know a word of English. Speaking before a crowd, I would think most people would prefer their first language. I would have used the interpreter.

Rick, I laughed. Fess up. You admire cleverness. You can be very clever as I witnessed yesterday while being that great superfriend, the Lurker.

SA, the people who spoke at Citizens Time and who ended up in Eric and Annabel’s videos stood out – through their vitriol, their ignorance, their emotionalism,their humor,their pleas. And , yes, the woman who said that the BOCS could kiss her a$$ stood out as well. Even more telling than her saying the word “ass” was Stirrup’s desire to drop her speech thereby proving he was one (an a$$) and was more interested in censoring one word that she spoke and less concerned about the costly FAIR-generated abomination he unloaded on this county.

I also was under the impression that some of the speakers who used the translator did so so that some of the crowd in the lobby and beyond could understand what they were saying, not necessarily that they all couldn’t speak English.

What has Greg and the Specks done to address the gang issue? They report grafitti and get PO’ed when it isn’t removed pronto. From what I’ve read gangs, murderers, violent criminals are the types of illegal immigrants that ICE wants to remove. By making ICE deal with mounds of paperwork related to jaywalkers or shoplifters, the process is slowed down. Now Virginia is adding to the swamp of paperwork. Do you feel more safe?

Leila- if Michaels opinions are the same, who cares how the message was delivered. Geeeesh got nothing else better todo than to try a discredit an individual you disagree with? Damn..Just how long did it take YOU to figure it out?? If you would take the energy and time that you put into trying to discredit Michael and funneled it towards something positive…you actually might be able to sleep at night..

Micahel- I read your words and don’t really care where you got them, if this is your true feeling then by all means go for it..Its better to be heard than to sit back and be silent..Plus you gave me something more to ponder now…..

Just Cause,

I believe Leila’s concern has everything to do with academic integrity. To take someone else’s work and deliver it as your own is plagiarism. Those are the types of behaviors that can get you expelled from college since it is seen as a form of cheating. Don’t you rule of law folks believe in it carrying over into academia? Cherry picking again.

Plagiarism delivered in a spiel about ethics. lol

WHWN and others, rather than speculate gleefully about what goes on at HSM meetings, why don’t you just show up and find out for yourself? Then you could actually inject some truth into your posts and educate the rest of us.

Emma, I think it was a light hearted moment. I can only speak for myself. I made a smart aleck remark also. I was kidding Rick. I feel certain he knows I was kidding him.

To take things to a more serious level: Do you think HSM people would be as courteous to Alanna or Elena if they attended a meeting as the anti group has been to some of their members who have come to anti functions? If bvbl is any example of courtesy, I would bet money that it would be a real rough evening.

Rick, I am hysterical. Starfish indeed! snicker. Howwwwwwwlllllll!

Emma-It sounds like you’ve been to some meetings. Why don’t you educate us? HSM is hardly the “hot topic” of the day. It’s more like a sparkler.

Rick, you are far better at religious satire than you are a porno writer. Stick with the talent.

Well thank you but to be fair I was holding back with the porno writing.

Moon-

Integrity??? LMAOOOO Cherry Picking??????

Hi Pot met kettle….

This isn’t College and to set the record straight, I am a fence rider on this subject. I see the good the bad and the ugly behind all this but I also see human beings and I am also struggling with “ what the future holds for my Children” yet I am also concerned for the children of illegal’s present.

Sorry to disappoint you Just Cause. I would say it took fewer than 2 minutes to notice then identify the text Michael appropriated. I read his item, saw immediately they weren’t his words, took one sentence and put it into Google, and saw the entire text he borrowed immediately. While I certainly appreciate your concern for my sleep and energy. I was awake because I chose to be, not because I couldn’t sleep. I got home very late and was catchng up with things on this blog and others. Different people keep different hours.

You say “this isn’t college.” Actually plagiarism can get one kicked out of college and also get kicked out of a job as well. I don’t know if you work JC, but I assume from what you said you would have no problem passing off someone else’s prepared work as your own. You might want to inform your co-workers of that. It’s the neighborly thing to do.

In any case, I was simply curious if Michael saw any disconnect between posting something about ethics and having that something about ethics be someone else’s words without quotation marks or attribution.

Leila said: ” any case, I was simply curious if Michael saw any disconnect between posting something about ethics and having that something about ethics be someone else’s words without quotation marks or attribution”
_______

Thats NOT what you said at all and I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill and your true INTENT was to belittle someone that you disagree with by pulling monkeys out your a$$..I am SUUUURRREEEE you didnt just find the 1st sentence and put into google…I think that you sit up late at night reading posts line by line and copy and paste them to google hoping to “score” . Either way..Michaels dialogue, requardless where he got it, set off for a good debate…that is until you sucked the conversation to a different direction……

Tell me when you sing Happy Birthday to your kids or friends or whom ever, do you FIRST provide a disclaimer???? hmmmmmm

I could go on and on but I think you “get the point”….

OOps wanted to add to Leila:

“People in GLASS HOUSES shouldn’t throw STONES!

Leila, when I read Michael’s comments about ethics, it sounded like a Cliffs Notes version of an Ethics course. Haha. I guess it’s the online version – wikipedia.

Sooo Your online “source” is wikipedia???? LMBO…Wikipedia has the option to allow anyone to “add” or “update” and even “delete” any information provided..

Just Cause, you are going to have to identify exactly what glass house I am living in. Please show me where I have done anything resembling this. Michael wasn’t listing some facts, he wasn’t quoting a population figure or somesuch, He was lifting entire paragraphs of narrative prose without attribution.

I also never said I used the first sentence. How amusing you are. I don’t do this as a matter of course for Michael or anyone else. Perhaps you are projecting. Perhaps you have the kind of time to do such things. Actually when I attempt to read Michael’s words, I normally notice his very particular style. I notice his tendency to capitalize things and, in many posts that he doesn’t spell check, his copious errors that go beyond the kind of occasional typos that all of us make. For example he much enjoys listing countries as a means of somehow adding gravitas to his arguments. Unfortunately he tends to misspell many of their names, which somewhat undermines his claim of worldly experience. That is why I have told him here recently that the greatest threat to his safety would be a mob of marauding copy editors, driven to drink by the constant provocation.

I also have challenged him frequently on the empirical content of his arguments, such as his claims that the League of Women Voters is a hate group. Perhaps you would agree with him on that too. If so, please contribute to our exchange on this matter last night.

The single reason I brought the copying up was the obvious clash between what he was writing about, which was ethics, and what I would consider the unethical behavior of plagiarism of, again, extended passages of someone else’s text, not a fact or two, not something in common parlance, but the verbatim work of others. I didn’t spell out the clash in my first post because I thought it was obvious and didn’t need stating. Apparently for you it did.

I very rarely check anyone’s text vis a vis Google. The only time I remember doing it in relation to one of the twinned blogs was on BVBL when a person named BL was found of pasting the same extremely lengthy text full of preposterous statistical claims about illegal aliens and crime statistics. In that case, I wasn’t interested if BL appropriated another’s words, but where he had gotten the text from since I knew the particular statistics he was citing were not ones kept by the FBI as he claimed. It turned out that it was something floating around the Net with obvious errors and provenance so dubious that even a conservative blogger objected to it.

So again sorry to disappoint. I tend to notice people’s style and departures from same without any effort whatsoever. It’s automatic for me, just like noticing your need to be simultaneously vulgar and euphemistic with your $$. Fun times.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programming?

Wikipedia does indeed allow all that, but none of that is plagiarism. A person who is ethical in writing would not take *large* blocks of any text and insert it as though it were his/her own without quotation or attribution.

fond not found

Leila-
Guess the quote ” The devil finds work for the idle hands todo” implys to you and your sleep deprived nights…as for the “vulagarity”, if I have offended you, you have the option to:

A: Not read and dont respond
B: Click the back buttom on top of your browser..

I have never said anything any where NEAR vulgar as some of your “friends”.

Now grow some thick skin and take a nap!

Okay, briefly about this Michael cuts and pastes discovery.

1) Doesn’t effect me because I usually hit the scroll button when I see “Michael” at the top of a post. Not only are they long and dull, but they are sophomoric and only tangentially related to the subject at hand. This explains why.

2) Why are all the other clones defending Michael? What is their relationship to him? And why isn’t Michael defending himself?

3) From no on, I suggest that Alanna and Elena treat filibuster posts from Michael similar to the filibuster post that appeared on today’s NY Times community policing thread. Just provide a link to the original source so we can give our scroll buttons a break!!!

Leila, thanks for your two seconds of detective work. And everyone, especially Rick, thanks for having a sense of humor about the Letiecq basement meeting thing. Emma, it was a joke, not speculation. Everything in that post was a joke.

Plagiarism is intellectual and academic theft. I don’t care where it happens. A simple way to avoid this charge would be to say, “according to Leila, ’such and such.’” If I just write her words down and give her no credit, I have stolen from her the same as if I lifted her wallet out of her purse.

Haha. All the clones/trolls seem to have reappeared after a short vacation and after their flouncing out of here with the announcement that they’ll never post again.

Sometimes after reading some of these long obtuse, compulsive, and rambling posts, I think that the local police department will find these after some bizarre event and go, “hmmmm”.

I don’t mind the stealing so much as the filibustering.

I won’t cut and paste a definition of filibuster. I’ll provide my own:

Lawmakers filibuster when they know they are in the minority opinion, facing an argument they cannot win. Filibustering is a stall tactic, in which essentially the goal is to never shut up. When they’ve run out of their own words to say, they read from books that are unrelated, from dictionaries even (and they always provide the source).

This is the role that people like “Info” on the NY Times Op-Ed thread, and Michael on every thread, have taken on AntiBVBL. They find themselves in an argument they cannot win, so they determine to never shut-up. And, when you are lacking in ideas in the first place, the only recourse is to quote the ideas of others. At least “Info” had the decency to let us know she filibustering. All this time I just thought Michael was ignorant and obtuse, but sincerely trying to engage with us.

Rick, thanks for holding back. I am still HOWLING over the starfish and GL and Brokeback Mountain.

Just Cause,

I am curious why you think I am sleep deprived. You think a person posting at 1:38 is sleep-deprived by definition? How quaint and how unmathematical since surely the only way to know if someone didn’t sleep enough is to know when they had to get up and how much sleep they need. Apparently if people don’t keep your hours, they by default don’t sleep enough. Just being awake at non-Just Cause time is apparently enough to have you reaching for the smelling salts. The very idea!

Again, you have proved yourself a very uncareful reader. I wasn’t offended by your words. I remarked on them as a matter of style and because of the fact that it was amusing to see you euphemize unneccesarily. Which of my friends are you talking about? And why would anything anyone else wrote have any relationship to how I use language? I am not offended by vulgar language, though I don’t tend to use it in blog postings. What drew my attention but not offense was your use of $$

Yeah, Rick, that’s some humorous writing on the dark side.

Censored, there is that tendency to travel in packs. I have noticed that. What I don’t understand about the clone trolls is why they have to get so freaking nasty to start with. This starting up something and then getting all wounded when you get stomped on is getting old. Don’t start something up.

For those who want to mother Michael, take him home with you. While I am sure Michael is a nice person, he tends to act arrogant and like he thinks he is better than the rest of us. Michael, try to engage in conversation and sell your ideas, in small bits and pieces rather than a treatise.

Why Here, I am late in saying this, but I very very much enjoyed your 10 questions and appreciated the humor used to convey valid concerns. It also reminded me I need to see Batman, but that’s another issue.

Rick’s riff on another thread about his planned immigration porn movie was also quite compelling.

Thanks Leila. I have not seen nor thought much of the Batman movies. But I do know Alfred was recently played by Michael Kaine and from what clips I’ve seen, he provides Batman with wisdom and a measure of poise if Batman is getting too impetuous. Marty was just being funny, and also modest, by saying that.

Moonhowler said: Plagiarism is intellectual and academic theft. I don’t care where it happens. A simple way to avoid this charge would be to say, “according to Leila, ’such and such.’” If I just write her words down and give her no credit, I have stolen from her the same as if I lifted her wallet out of her purse.
*****

MH- Really?? So plagerism is basically “ BREAKING THE LAW” ( stealing a wallet)
and you have never ever defended anyone that breaks the law………… right????

” take Michael home”??
Uhhh never said that and the reason I spoke up on his/her defense was because YOUR pack started on him…and I personally thought the dialogue he provided was actually up for good debate ( reguardless where it came from) but as usual..someone ( cough cough) got backed in a corner and the only defense left was to demise the conversation all together…

Censored: What are you saying?? You going to the police……. (((((yawn))))) I have heard that tactic before from you…

Leila- U still up???? And your offended by the use of the dollar sign ( $$)??

***************************************************************************************
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result

Haha.

Just Cause, are you hallucinating or something? Again, why are you assuming anyone is sleep deprived? I went to sleep last night and got up this morning. Mirabile dictu. Guess what? I’ll do it again tonight. Mirabile dictu redux.

Also, dollar signs? Are you being deliberately obtuse or you don’t know the meaning of euphemism? And exactly where did I say I was offended? I said it drew my attention but not offense. I can see you don’t proofread what you write, but can you at least read what others set down?

H E double toothpicks Just Cause. Is that better?

Leila, I think we have a contrarian troll who is ready to rumble after last night’s session of the Red Speck. She (he?) is here to teach us a lesson – though it won’t be one in grammar.

Censored, that’s just speckulation on your part.

Leila, want to fund the movie? I’m thinking of starting up several series that play up the racial and cultural exploitation factors, in addition to the “House of Meat” series :

“What Would You Do For a Green Card, the Edition”

“Give Me Amnesty or Give Me H***”

“Flophouse G*ng B*ngs”

“P*ssy a la Pollo”

and last but not least “Undocumented Sluts”.

I have no idea what people are talking about here anymore.

Is plagiarism a crime? Heard of copyright laws?

Here is a link to answer all those questions.
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html

No Rick, I’ll pass. I don’t share your view of the (ahem) target population or your penchant for porn. With you, it just makes me sad that a funny guy who can invoke the great Romero or Rez Dogs wants to waterboard illegal immigrants. It must be dark in that townhouse indeed. You bring up legitimate labor concerns about wages and rights, and then turn around and undermine them with your fixation on people who dare to speak Spanish around you.

But one thing I have been meaning to ask. Why is it you keep writing as though illegal immigrants aren’t already living in Fairfax or adjacent counties and have been, for the duration? All this just wait til Fairfax finds out stuff seems rather odd. Fairfax (and Arlington where I live) both have large existing populations of illegal immigrants.

Mackie,

Many things all at once. We are bad like that. JC defended Michael to Leila who said it was plagiarism. JC thinks plagiarism is nit-picking. Rick is giving us his resident shock jock redition of the day. I am jealous because the dark screen gets the dark religious satire, which I want. Rick is being mean by witholding the starfish comments.

Aren’t you sorry you asked?

I type fast and make errors but given the intelligence on this site, I didn’t feel the need to repost another post just to edit my spelling..

Leila- Get over yourself

Censored- Guess your now Leilas talking head and where have I heard the red circle referred to as Specs…hmmmmmm

Rick- OMG you are on a roll today!!!! LOVE IT…

Moon-howler: (((cricket)))) (((((cricket)))))))

So I guess we are to draw the logical conclusion then???

Mackie-

I dont think plagiarism is nit picking as a whole..Just HERE on this blog.. and as usual, Leila, Moon-howler and Censored ( Refer to them as the Pack Rats) went after Michael and in turn I thought it was no big deal where he got his dialogue but that it was rather good for debate and instead of staying on topic ( which was Ethics )

…YOU GUESSED IT..the pack rats changed agenda and now we are in the midst of word war and ohhhhhhh the fact that Leila can’t sleep and her obsession that I am obsessed with her apnea…

Just Cause, what are you smoking? I never went after Michael. I was discussing plagiarism. I generally do what WHWN does…scroll on down. I wouldn’tn expect much sympathy from Mackie when dismissing plagiarism. I know where he went to school and what they thought about the subject.

We are still discussing academic integrity and intellectual pilfering. I just think perhaps you aren’t grasping what we are trying to say, judging from your summary.

JC, Don’t you mean to call us the Rat Pack? Does that make us ratty?

Wrong Moonhowler- I guess I was a little anxious cause the main topic was ETHICS and Law

Michael ( or who-ever) made some very good points about ethics and morals and how they should go hand in hand with the law…and the debate was actually getting good and brought fourth much more to ponder then right in the midst of it….BAMMMMMM
Leila had to go and change agenda…I get the whole plagiarism thing just dont give 2 cents worth about it here…On this blog!!! and what does a persons schooling or academic integrity have to do with the discussions on this blog??? N-O-T-H-I-N-G!

I guess in the end of it all..some people are just plain insecure….

and No..I meant PACK RATS..cause you never ever blog alone…Where there is on persons opinion ( whom ever disagrees) there is always 3 more coming…

OOPS ONE instead of ON (jus so you will understand)

Just instead of Jus

(See how freaking annoying that is..to always re-post another post )

“You bring up legitimate labor concerns about wages and rights, and then turn around and undermine them with your fixation on people who dare to speak Spanish around you.”

I don’t have anything against Hispanic people. I don’t have anything against countries that speak Spanish. I do have something against the illegal influx going on here.

“But one thing I have been meaning to ask. Why is it you keep writing as though illegal immigrants aren’t already living in Fairfax or adjacent counties and have been, for the duration? All this just wait til Fairfax finds out stuff seems rather odd. Fairfax (and Arlington where I live) both have large existing populations of illegal immigrants.”

Yes. And the ones who immigrated in to PWC in the last few years are now moving to Fairfax, Arlington, and Montgomery Counties largely. They’ll now have a LARGER illegal population, something like what we had here circa 2006. Let’s see how they will react. An indication that this is happening is the influx of new school students in Fairfax, at least 1000 of whom come from PWC. Same amount of housing, same or less property tax revenue, more people enrolling at school – they will notice their standard of living declining and their tax burden increasing, just as I did.

Look at it this way – what goes up must come down. I am so much happier with my neighborhood since the illegal contingent left. i assume they will bring the same misery to the next neighbors they have.

You probably don’t think so. I say, wait and see.

And if and when it does happen, and Help Save Arlington and Help Save Fairfax get going hard and heavy, please keep the option open that the root problem is not just that there is culture clash, it is the particular culture clash of a people reducing wages and standard of living coming into a place and trying to make it like the lousy place they just came from. Not every illegal alien does that, and maybe not most. But a lot of them do, and when your neighborhood is beseiged to tens of thousands of new poor, you realize nothing good can come from that.

Rick, with all due respect, the Help Save groups rely on a foundation of prejudice and intolerance that will never again be seen in Arlington and Fairfax. In fact, it will soon be extinct in PWC.

Ironically, it seems one of our most ubiquitous Hate Bunnies has accused someone of being insecure. I think perhaps another symptom of insecurity is fretting and freaking over the fact that the public opinion pulse of Prince William County is no longer a carefully censored propaganda post that like BVBL.

Here, where there is free competition of ideas, the Hate Bunnies try to rally. But they expose the bankruptcy of their ideas by resorting to filibuster (cutting and pasting the ideas of others in order to clog up the flow of information here) and 2007-style hysteria about graffiti and excesses use of the Spanish language.

You expose your own insecurity just by posting here, Just Cause, again and again and again. This is the place where you are not insulated by misinformation, fake statistics, and a general attitude of racial scapegoating. You have to fend for yourself here. So come up with some ideas of your own and stop attacking people.

Or, at least come up with some ideas of your own in addition to attacking people.

JC,

You do realize that censored and Leila are not at my house and I have no control over whether they are blogging or not? Because 3 people are independently disagreeing with you might be a signal of something. Think about it.

Leila didn’t change the agenda. There was no agenda. Michael was also not responding. Leila left him a message about him plagiarizing. This is not a live chat room. Michael is free to come back and respond to you or Leila or both of you. If I were Michael, I would chose you. You and Michel are free to discuss whatever you want, independent of what Leila says.

I will not allow academic integrity to be dismissed any more than I would allow you to say you wrote War and Peace or take my wallet. I don’t know how else to put it. It is stealing. If you are lecturing on ethics, then doesn’t stealing academic material, however poorly written, come into play? I believe Leila was pointing out the irony of a diatribe on ethics by a person who doesn’t give an author credit for his work. Perhaps this is an insignificant topic in your world, JC, but it isn’t in mine. It can be a real career breaker.

Red Dawn, 21:23

I tried to explain who decides what is right and wrong, with three concepts cut and pasted from Wikipedia. I had to leave, so could not continue the discussion sorry. My father was in the hospital with a heart attack, but he is better now.

I really think that regardless of all the debates and hateful language thown around on this blog, the real issue about “illegal” immigration is centered on law, morality and ethnics and the determination of who is the greater wronged, the “majority” of the population, affected by “illegal” immigration or the “illegal” immigrants themselves. While I have sympathy for the conditions under which illegal immigrants live, and I know if we enforce the law those conditions will not exist, I feel the greater wrong is done to the “majority” population affected by “illegal” immigration in hundreds of widely documented ways. I know this because my wife was an “illegal” immigrant.

First “Law” decides what is right and wrong. That is voted on by our representatives and enforced by our police. It has consequences if we break it, so essentially a “judge” decides what is right and wrong by deciding who has broken the law and what the punishment will be, based on strict legal interpretation of the law and legal precedence.

Those things not covered by law are covered by morality. People and societies, and the pressure that people put on each other to conform with the majority opinion determine morality, and in the case of beliefs and religions, morality is determined for those individuals by religious doctrine and how they interpret it.

Then there is ethics, which covers whether a person should be a “radical” or not and demand that a law that is not working for the benefit of the entire society or the benefit of everyone the same regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic group be “changed”. Ethics is the ability to make decisions about right and wrong when considering the needs of everyone, not just a few, deciding good or bad and determining the best course for a life worth living for everyone, not just a few people. Ethica and morality determine right from wrong, when you have no power under the law to enforce law on others or force others to not harm you, when they lack “ethics” for the good of all, not just a small percentage of the population they personally favor, privilege or discrimminate against.

I believe it is the only “ethical” thing to do, to prevent more people living under the misery of “illegal” immigration, to stop it, and permanently prevent new people from having incentives to come here illegally. I think not allowing amnesty of any kind (to avoid the flood of 40 million others to do the same in the future), and sending the current “illegal” people home, to discourage any furthur lawlessness and reverse the damage “illegal” immigration has already done, is still doing, and will do to the majority of people the law was designed to protect is the only moral and ethical thing to do, when you consider everyones’ rights the same, AND EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW.

I feel anyone who does not support democracy and lawfullness, and instead supports lawlessness and anarchy is comitting a moral and unethical act toward the “majority” of the people. Those who do not do this are being immoral, by being concerned only about their own racial,gender, religious or ethnic groups welfare, EXCLUDING all others. Because of this I believe groups that organize to do this are hate groups, even if they think, radicalism is a noble and just cause, but they fail because they do it only for minority group reasons and concern for just a small group, not everyone the SAME. THough they think they are being “moral” to the small group, they are being “immoral” to the large group. This very concept undermines DEMOCRACY.

Alanna, 23:56 you have a good point.

However you cannot make such a decision in isolation of all the other people affected by Cubans who make it to land and Cubans who do not. It is not that simple. Of course their ethics do not change, based on that simple of an example, but neither have they broken any law, which requires an assessment of the effect of the broken law on everyone affected by it. That is why we have law.

Leila 1:38

Point taken, I assume you are one of the “plagerism police”. Yes there was a reason, several actually.

1. I did not have time to write my own version, linking several points from several locations together to create a “different” concept.
2. I did a collage, I cut a magazine, a newspaper, and book page together to create a different form of “new art” or textual .
3. I borrowed text from a widely acknowledge “open source” (you do know there are things called “open source” that are not copy-writed don’t you?
4. I borrowed only portions of that text for personal and academic discussion (not a homework assignment) and not commercial reasons, I did not make any money from it or receive a grade for it.
5. I’m on a “blog”, not an academic institution that has plagerism rules posted with a threat to kick out their students if they are caught as punishment. I doubt Alanna or Elena is going to kick me off this blog for borrowing words from an open internet source, written by unknown and a multitude of contributing authors. Most if not all if I remember came from a wikipedia site.
6. I don’t care if you think it is some un-ethical offense, I and most others would not agree with you, I am not writing a research paper or a book for sale, or a grade.
7. Go read the laws on copy-write, if you think I have committed plagerism.
8. As you said, you could easily tell they were not my words, because I do not right like that.
9. When you copy someone else’s comments and insert them in your posts, make sure you always give them credit for those exact words.
10. I was too lazy to post a reference, sorry if I offended anyone for being in a rush.

Since my last post did not go in:

Leila, just so people don’t think you are as smart as you think you are, Wikipedia comes under the GNU Free Document license. Google that. You can “copy” it as much as you wish.

But just for you: I do not give you permission to copy any of my text and reuse it without my permission. Is that a legal copywite?

Leila, 12:12, I could care less about copy editors. I’m an Engineer, and cojuld caqre less about “syntax”, except when I’m writing software for a spacecraft. I simply type fast, and don’t want to take the time to edit it, unles I feel like it.

You get the content anfd the concept, that is all that matters as far as I’m concerned. I prefer to think of it as art, broad brush strokes, impressionism, doesn’t have to be “realistic” to help some people to “get the message”. Art and science are like that, full of approximations, heck we sent a spacecraft to the moon with that 0.000001 decimal imprecision.

O’ and some of the software on the Lunar Lander was “copied”, it came from the AV-8, and a lab of academic developers. Darn that pesky thing called LAW, it has a specific definition of Copywrite, and usually is covered by this symbol called a @. (can’t make a c )

WHWY, 13:07

I am neither ignorant nor obtuse, I simply am engaging with people who have a personal agenda and are extremely difficult to debate with or reason with, who simply do not like what I have to say. I think you will find however that my comments follow the “neutrality and justice of law” far more accurately and of “majority” opinion that the beliefs of those more “radical” rebels who propose lawlessness and anarchy as the next society they want to create and live in.

I am sincerely trying to engage with all of you on this very serious topic.

Here are my beliefs in a nutshell.

1. Democracy is the most important concept we need to support in our nation and society.
2. We have a constitution written by people far smarter than anyone on this blog and we should follow its principals, the most significant of which are
a. Freedom
b. Right to self governmemt by the people, for the people and government by a majority vote, enforced by majority law equally on everyone the same.
c. Right to bear arms should the government become legally and morally corrupt.
d. Right to treat all men equally, right to “indivdual” rights, not group rights, without discrimmination or privilege based on race, gender, religion or ethnic group.
e. Right to pursuit of happiness, liberty and justice FOR ALL, not just a small segment of the population.
f. Right to defend those rights from all enemies foreign and domestic, and from any person, group or nation who would undermine them.

None of what I have said here on this blog, goes outside those basic principals.

If some of you disagree with me and prefer anarchy and lawlesness to democracy and lawfulness, that is your problem, to figure out when the radical and socialists concepts that many profess here, begin to destroy our nation’s peace, prosperity, and stability.

I won’t horse trade IQs or “careers” with anyone, my past and present is coveted by many of my friends, but I can assure you my “peers” do not hold your belief that I am ignorant and obtuse. That is only the opinion of people who disagree with me on this blog. Call it political character assasination and political hate-mongering. I would call that comment sophmoric as well.

None of your words, or the words of others hurt me, only the ignorance of hearing it said, knowing my country and legal system will suffer for it.

Michael, you assume that if some of us don’t agree totally with you, that we are anarchists. I find that very offensive. That sort of shuts down all dialogue.

Moonhowler, 17:02

THERE is no author to CREDIT. See how quickly people make assumptions about what someone is saying and quickly twist it into something that is “gasp” “way beyond something they actually said” or conveyed.

That is the problem with politicians and people who are political animals more than the are serious thinkers.

JC was recognizing, the debate might actually lead somewhere worthwhile, instead it spiraled into “character assasination”, the lowest of political snoberies and meanness (unless you are attacked first, then it might justify a nasty snarl back”.

Was it TEDDY or FDR that said speak softly, but carry a big stick?

Would I not be labeled “unethical” if I made someone up to credit my “cut and paste” with? IT’s WIKI for freakin sake!

I’m inclined to believe JC’s initial instincts were right, there was a different agenda here, lower than plagerism.

I don’t agree Moonhowler,

I do not assume that because some of you disagree with me you are anarchists. I don’t object to disagreement and then immediately attack individuals, I only “challenge” people personally when they have said something bad about me, or attacked my character or “ethics” first. I am actually a very fair and ethical person, so you will rarely see me step outside the bounds of lawful and honorable debate. I prefer to let my brain rule my emotions, think first and then talk. It is the sign of a good leader, and I have led many in my lifetime. I said their words lead me to believe they prefer anarchy and lawlessness, over democracy and lawfulness.

Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχία anarchía, “without ruler”) may refer to any of the following:

A state, free from coercive authority of any kind, is the goal of proponents of the political philosophy of anarchism (anarchists).

“Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder.”[1]
“A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder).”[2]
“Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere.”[3]
It should be noted that “ruler,” if used in the context of the third bullet point, has no explicit connection to the term “rules.” In an anarchy, as defined by the last bullet point, it is possible to have rules (laws), however, these must be agreed upon by the participants in the system, and not imposed from above, by a ruler (leader, authority). Some languages, such as Norwegian[4] have two separate words for the two meanings.

I especially see this in some of Mackies comments (not to single you out Mackie, some of what you say I agree with, but I rarely if ever desire to “attack” him personally, I prefer to challenge his “beliefs”. That is called “debate”

Michael, perhaps I mischaracterized what you thought about anarchists or I might have misread.

Actually, I don’t care whether you credit or don’t credit. Leila did ask a reasonable question of you. What JC doesn’t seem to understand is that you can talk to her and talk to Leila and that is your choice. Leila was being accused of changing the agenda. This isn’t a chat room.

i do have a problem with blowing off academic integrity. You didn’t do this and I am not accusing you of doing it.

Michael, it is very difficult to discuss an entire philosophy with someone. Why don’t you pick one of those and dangle it out there. I believe most bloggers want a quick exchange. I think you have some interesting ideas. If you presented them in smaller doses I believe things would go better. It is human nature to avoid that which is too much work.

Most people are tired, it is the end of the day….a paragraph or 2 would be a good starting point. Just a suggestion. No one will throw you off if you don’t agree to this.

Michael, sorry, just seeing your comments now. I never brought up the word copyright or mentioned any issue of law. I personally think it is unethical to reproduce a large block of text as if it were your own. It is very simple to attribute. You could just say, per a Wikipedia entry on Ethics, etc. etc. or similar. It’s amusing that you think the only form of a citation is an actual person’s name.

Also, it wasn’t a question for me whether Wiki cares if you copy from them. I am familiar with GNU, Stallman, open source, etc. However I think many people would argue that it lacks integrity to pretend that large blocks of narrative text are your own words if they are not. It takes a second of your time to attribute. It also makes your prose seem less schizophrenic since what you cut and paste and what you write are so radically different in terms of attention to error. But that’s a minor point. The only reason I brought this up at all is because you were talking about ethics.

And about your words here, no, it isn’t a legal copyright. People can quote you without permission. It is a public forum and people are free obviously to quote one another or the blog post itself just the same way as if they were standing on a street corner. Copyright (which I never brought up in relation to your cut and paste from Wikipedia) is a formal process.

I brought up copyright in making a point to JC. I never said it about you Michael and Leila didn’t use it at all. I would find the quote…but it is not important now.

Moon Howler, I think I might actually attend this time, as long as there is no human or animal sacrifice going on. It’s against my religion.

WHWN, I realize you were joking. That’s why I brought up the human-sacrifice question to Rick.

Information Only, I have no idea what goes on at their meetings, so I can’t educate you.

Contentious bunch tonight. I was out enjoying “The Lion King.”

Hakuna Matata!

Gesundheit

Emma,

I asked about the next economy sacrifice and it hasn’t been determined. Lots of vacations are going on. It was just too hard to pull off at the last film event. So stay tuned. When I find out, I will let you know.

Well said Michael…

Moon-howler- OMG GIVE ME A BREAK… you brought up copyright and all the other “laws” of academic integrity and went on a rant about plagiarism AFTER Leila hijacked the ethics debate and then you both questioned my work ethic not to mention making jokes about spelling and grammar and now I am being labeled a hate bunny. ALL this transpired because of debate derailing and disagreements…now seems you are back tracking and not defending your true intent which in reality was Character assassination.

I’m done beating this dead horse

Peace out!

Just Cause- Please re-read. I said *I* brought up the issue of copyright, not Leila.

Yes, I did speak to academic integrity. I will always think it is important. I do not like having it dismissed as something we just don’t worry about this time. Do I care if Michael dotted all his i’s and crossed all his t’s? Not particularly. However I will not have issues involving intellectual property blown off without a countercomment either.

If it isn’t something that has been important in your world, well, then it just isn’t. However, Intellectual Property has been something important in my world since I was a young child. Please do not trivialize other people’s values. Academic integrity is just one small component of Intellectual property. Don’t just take my word for this. Check out ‘intellectual property’ on any web source.

Leila did not hi jack the ethics debate. Actually there was no debate going on. She posted a comment that is very relevant to ethics.

I never questioned your work ethic. Again, reading comprehension skills. I never joked about grammar or spelling. Cut the hysteria. If I get my red pen out, you will know it. I don’t do that on a blog. It would be too much like work without pay.

Very seriously now, JC, when you come to a blog and start shrieking at people, you probably are not going to get the kind of response you want. Abrasiveness is just not going to win you friends. Secondly, this blog is not a chat room. You are treating it as such. That can be verified by observing some of your other not-so-stellar posts on other blogs.

One more thing, JC, my arguement isn’t with Michael. I don’t recall even reading his post in question. My argument was with YOU, tearing in to Leila. You seem to think some debate was going on. There wasn’t.

Leila may make any comment she wants regarding another post. She is a trusted blogger with a good reputation for accuracy and fine-tuned research. I might not always agree with her but I would NEVER challenger her research or her knowledge about such topics. She could mop the floor with me if she chose to.

and with your politically correct way to continue the character assassination, I rest my case..

does it really matter who could mop who here?? Is that what this site is really all about?
I thought this was a blog about a topic we are all passionate about and could voice opinions and concerns back and fourth but perception is that if someone makes a valid point and you or your peers disagree, then discrediting them at any cost is how the game is played and that’s where I took issue. If you cannot see the forest for the trees than continue your rant , I just hope you practice what you preach.

I think it might just be manners rather than political correctness. Why would I need to use political correctness here?

JC asked ‘does it really matter who could mop who here??’

No, this isn’t a roller derby queen contest. I was acknowledging that Leila knew a great deal more about the topic at hand than I do and if she chose to exibit her knowledge, she could surely do that. I have never known Leila to behave that way towards her friends. I hope this clarifies my statement about the mopping

For the record, my passion, if I have one, is more about HOW a political agenda was snuck into the county in a very underhanded way. I don’t think anyone supports illegal immigration, including those who aren’t documented.

Are you two done yet?

JP, You will know when.

I am outraged that the law was not enforced to protect the citizens from the begining stages but I also have sense enough to know that millions and millions of people cannot be deported. I personally had the perception that PWC was becoming a 3rd world arm pit and that’s why I moved to another county and rather that was the result of illegal or Hispanics in general, I cannot directly say but I can tell you that my Community was becoming more and more diverse over the years and less attractive to its residence and then the HOA was becoming more relaxed on their policies and then over a course of time, it became an undesirable place to live. Then After meeting and talking to people (Twinad) in particular, I felt terrible about her situation and then you hear other stories and situations from both sides of the fence and again…Emotions run high and once again the mind changes. I do not know exactly where I stand in all this except that I am angry that my Government has even put me in a situation to where I have to choose.

I really do not want to give the impression that I am a hate bunny but rather a confused bunny at this point, I am sure politically you yourself could mop me but…I still am willing to give my opinions anyway…There are days I can strictly understand where Rick and Emma are coming from and then there are days when I see your point as well as Alannas..so I would assume it makes me a fence riding bunny foo foo..

JC,

I think that is a fair assessment of how many people feel about this issue. I sure don’t see any easy answers. I thank you for bringing this mixed feeling to the forefront of the conversation. Perhaps it is the most important topic we can be discussing.

People should not have to feel totally aligned with HSM or MWB. There is a huge central ground out there and I think you and I probably are sitting right in the middle of it. Again, thank you for finding that common ground, at least between us.

JC,

Nothing wrong with riding a fence in my eyes. There are legal issues, security issues, and there are human issues. Put me on that fence with you.

and thanks Moon-howler for your patience and understanding and yes, the media helps play into people that they must Choose a side…I often wondered how people could choose a side so quickly but I guess that is a mystery all in its own and through time I am sure people will switch again and again…thats the frustration.

Whew..I feel much better and I will have to admit, I thought when I came here, that I too had to choose a side…

Just Cause-no not at all. We toss ideas around here. In fairness, people who live where bad things have happened are going to be more passionate than those who don’t have to deal with daily issues that impact their quality of life.

I don’t think anyone here dismisses those things. In the first place, we certainly don’t all feel the same way. Lots of difference of opinion…I think though most of us want bad criminals off the street and we want to put much more of our resources into neighborhood services…where we do have some control.

Stick around. It sounds like you have some good ideas. If you see both sides then it sounds like you are probably where you should be.

Just Cause,

You’ve made a lot sense in your last posts. The biggest problem I see over the last year is the extremists were two colliding tidal waves and we in the middle got drowned out. I live in a hard hit neighborhood, and it does look better than this time last year. Over the past year I wrote about most of the things in my neighbohood that were bad. I try and not talk about the negative things, and try to accentuate the positive.

I was under the impression you still lived in PWC. Is that not true? Wasn’t your neighborhood in PWC that the HOA didn’t allow any lawn furniture at all in the front yard or on the stoop? That still fires me up and it’s not my neighborhood.

I’ve said this many times before when your “in the middle” or “on the fence” means you will have to take crap from both sides.

Moonhowler 23:12

I will try, it is difficult to make complex and deeply dependant concepts short.

Leila 23:26,

I believe we understand each other and agree on this now.

Good points JC.

Michael,

I read your response and agree in concept. However, the concept was thrown out the window due to the inaction of our Federal Government which leads to mistrust. I would say that our government has morally and ethically failed “we the people” and by doing so we may see a rise in RADICAL behavior or groups. I also see law/acts that have been recently passed that will also keep “we the people” silent and fearful of speaking out and used against US. This is why I ask, who is in control and what would the government have to do to gain the respect and confidence back?

I am sorry to hear about your father and glad to hear he is doing better.

Yes Michael, I hope your father is better also. How old is he and does he live locally so you don’t have to travel far to be at his side?

Red Dawn, don’t forget, there was a bipartisan deal on the table to fix the immigration system and avoid all this misery. But the same “RADICALS” that invaded our county with their hate and their email blasts used the same tricks to stop the bipartisan solution from going forward. The Fed’s basically did the same thing our local BOCS did. They caved to a frenzy of hate and hysteria propelled by automated emails, automated faxes, and people with loud voices and chemical imbalances making a lot of noise.

I think the BOCS has learned its lesson. I think that Congress has too. Both Dems and Repubs are waiting for a new President though because Bush is too weak to support them and would probably help the other side rally up their hate juice.

Chris, you know, another way of looking at the two sides is that there is only one group of extremists, the Anti-immigrant Lobby. And it’s really a case of the interests of the Anti-immigrant Lobby vs. the interests of the general public AND the best intentions of our legislatures on the local and the federal level.

You probably realized by now that the extremists on the other side are not organized, not effective, and are really only reacting indignantly as is their right to the fingers being pointed, the hate being foisted, and the police being told to “crack down” on their families and friends. Anyone would react that way. And Gospel Greg and the Anti-immigrant Lobby exploited this reaction to create a “them vs. us” scenario, and make it feel like a war was on. It was a trick to motivate an apathetic base of people who only get involved if they feel attacked.

So both sides feel attacked. But only one side is really attacking. That’s my point.

And they are not just attacking immigrants. These bad policies are hurting us all.

It’s the Anti-immigrant Lobby vs. America as far as I’m concerned.