WP: Va. Jails to Report Foreign Inmates
July 28th, 2008
Great article in the Washington Post concerning the new Virginia requirement and its comparison to Prince William.
Under the state law, local jails probably will spend a fraction of the $10.5 million Prince Willliam has budgeted over the next five years for the ICE partnership.
ICE cannot say how many illegal immigrants from a particular jurisdiction are being deported, only that it cannot remove as many as it would like because of budget limitations. So there are no statistics about what ultimately happens to the illegal immigrants who are reported to ICE — either by way of the new state law or through the federal program, which trains local officers to identify and detain undocumented suspects charged with crimes.
Categories: ICE
If I am reading what Lucky Duck says correctly, we are getting the cadillac version. Our 287g program actually initiates the deportation process and what the state has simply tells ICE we have foreign-born criminals in our jail.
I don’t mind paying (well, yea I do really but….) for a cadillac version but I hope we get to cut in line in front of the jurisdictions who don’t have this program since we are shelling out the big bucks.
I wish these things were easier for the average person to understand. For instance, if a criminal who is also an illegal immigrant finishes out a 2 year sentence somewhere in the prison system in Va, is the criminal returned to Prince William County for exit purposes so that we KNOW that the person is going to ICE?
After reading this article, I am fully convinced that we just wasted time and money this past year in Prince William. If state law can make our county law appear to be obsolete, what’s going to happen when there is new federal law under McCain or Obama?
The only thing we accomplished during these dark days since July, 2007 is ruining our reputation, outing many of the racists in the county and exposing the poor leadership in our county government. Ah, the silver lining. We are a living lesson for others. Other localities will take a look at what’s happened in Prince William and say: whatever we do, we don’t want to go down THAT road. We need to be held up as a model for what not to do.
I think 9500liberty videos help to get that lesson across to others.
What can we do to undo the damage, the 20-year setback? How do we restore our reputation, bring Hispanic residents back, and address the poor leadership on BOCS?
My recommendations:
1) Rescind the resolution.
2) Issue a formal apology to the Hispanic and immigrant communities.
3) Pass a resolution that states that we commit to creating a welcoming environment for immigrants and new residents.
4) Create a Prince William Study Group comprised of citizens, residents and experts that can make formal recommendations to the county government for how to deal with the substantive aspects of the “illegal immigration” debate and address the host of new community problems that resulted from the ill-conceived Immigration Resolution, e.g., empty, abandoned homes, bad reputation and decline in tax revenue, etc.
5) For the long-term, create something like an Advisory Neighborhood Council to organize citizen involvement and gather citizen input on any issue in an official and productive manner before our neighbors get brainwashed by national hate groups like FAIR. It was FAIR in 2007; it could be another scary group this year or next year. We need to find ways to create a Firewall between our government’s democratic process and an organized insurgency to infiltrate our government.
What is failed to be pointed out is that other localities nearby are in the 287(g) program – not just PWC. From the same Washington Post article:
“Other local participants in the federal program are Herndon, Manassas, Manassas Park and, since early this month, Loudoun County. In Maryland, only Frederick County participates. The District has not signed on.
Fairfax County has applied to join the program, but Sheriff Stan Barry said last week that he might reconsider after he assesses the impact of the Virginia law. “
And also from that article:
Is this the total number of participants in the 287(g) program nationwide? Only sixty?
Anon, you’re an ostrich. Don’t you see the writing on the wall? We have wasted millions of dollars that we didn’t have for a program that delivered none of the officially intended consequences. It did drive out Hispanics through hatred and fear if that’s what makes you happy. Let me put it this way, without Immigration Resolution, we would have kept the Manassas Senior Daycare Center in our budget.
What a waste. Just like the Iraq War. All that money. Gone.
I like NGL’s suggestions.
The study group /circles are forming in Prince William now. To participate in the next webinar, tomorrow, July 29 at 6:30 -7:30 pm, go to http://www.cvdnva.org. The broader the participation the more effective the results.
How would you get a Neighborhood Council going? Speak to the BOCS? Neighborhood Services? How would that work in the City of Manassas?
MH:
The 287(g) program puts the power (and cost) to do the background checks with the locality. Those found to be in the country illegally are then reported to ICE. What ICE does with them at that point is a completely separate matter.
Under the new Virginia law, jurisdictions have to report those who they know are of foreign birth to ICE. ICE then is responsible for the background check, not the locality. Again, if ICE discovers through their check that the person in question is illegal, it is up to ICE to determine what to do.
In the end, Prince William’s involvement in the 287(g) program simply means that we have direct access to the same databases and systems as ICE versus turning over names (and identifying info) to ICE for them to research. The biggest boon is the ability to do a direct fingerprint search against a database of *known illegal aliens.* In other words, people ICE already knows are in the country illegally, but hasn’t done anything about. In many cases, these are people who have been deported before and have re-entered. In other cases, it’s someone who has been processed by ICE, but never faced deportation.
In general, ICE is loathe to do much of anything for those rounded up for petty crimes and misdemeanors. As a result, we can get that warm fuzzy feeling from having reported all kinds of names to ICE, but in reality a very small percentage of the group ever faces a deportation hearing much less actual deportation.
We would be just as well served to do the same evaluation Sherriff Barry is conducting in Fairfax. If we could get the same end results without having to shoulder the burden of the cost, it seems worth it to me.
Cindy B,
Take a look at the Advisory Neighborhood Council system in DC.
I haven’t had a chance to participate in the webinar. I look forward to it although Tuesday evenings are out for me. Also, as good as it sounds, I prefer to see people actually meeting and getting to know each other. I recommend starting with a full-day retreat in which people begin by getting to know each other and reflecting on what’s happened already, getting on the same page, establishing some goals and going from there.
Alanna and Elena,
Why don’t we organize a full-day retreat for those interested? I’ll bet we could find someone to donate a beautiful venue for a day and raise some money for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I do think we should get a professional moderator to guide the session. I’ve participated in some great retreats with my company that led to some revolutionary changes in company culture. The company hired HR consultants to motivate and guide us through differences in ideas and styles.
It doesn’t have to be a big group. 6-12 people would be great.
Turn PW Blue,
Who actually initiated us getting the 287g program in PW County. Do you remember the history on this? Whose brain child is it?
Now that we are participants in the program, are we better off staying in it and doing our own intial works since it starts the deportation process?
Thanks to both you and Lucky Duck on the other thread for providing some facts into this discussion. I want to know the process and end result now, not just a who to blame. It seems that the more questions I have answered, the more that surface from those answers.
So okay, they know who illgal aliens are. Does that mean they intend to deport them all, or are these just people who have been arrested for a crime?
And again I wonder, doesn’t all this reporting just put ICE more behind? Do they have to sort through those who are merely foreign born and those who could be undocumented? Where’s the people-power behind this? Can they handle it?
Oh yeah, and getting back to the awards list, Cindy B. needs to be on it!!
“Does that mean they intend to deport them all, or are these just people who have been arrested for a crime?”
Never mind that part of the question. TPWB already answered it. I was too hasty.
Moon-howler, if Lucky Duck is correct that ICE deportation proceedings begin whenever we say so, why is it that only 5 percent of the people we report receive ICE detainers? Can you ask him?
I have a feeling that the time quotient is at play here. ICE would gladly begin proceedings on anyone we way to. However, they have to proceed cautiously so as not to accidentally deport someone (that would be bad). And our jail space is limited, forcing us to prioritize on who we want to keep off the streets: violent criminals or people who are in the country illegally and rolled through a stop sign.
Because deportation proceedings take a long while, the time quotient forces our jails to release 95 percent of those who are reported to ICE before anything can be done about it.
That 5 percent rate will go down because of the new state law.
If so, our cadillac costs 10 million dollars, and it has no wheels.
PWC and now the state will keep piling names into ICE’s lists of foreign born and undocumented, but the same finite number of people will be deported.
The rest of the Commonwealth gets to add names to this 5-percent-action and 95-percent no action list, only the rest of the state hasn’t spent 10 million dollars, ruined their economy, destroyed their housing market, short-changed theirs schools, turned their backs on the seniors, or ruined their reputation on a national level.
Thanks Corey Stewart.
*** anyone we SAY to, not “way” to.
NGL: I post a quote from the Washington Post and you call me an ostrich. Well, you are a pig. So there. Stupid name calling as usual.
This new law looks like a Trojan horse to quietly lay the groundwork whereby our government can treat foreign born citizens as a group. Lets not lose sight of the fact that these are still united states citizens. We should all be treated exactly the same.
The second class treatment of foreign born citizens may begin here with this law. This law begins by targeting those who are in jail. Since they are a minority with no public support, treating them differently will not arouse anger. How long before this program is extended to keep tabs on all foreign born, period.
After september 11th we unconstitutionally rounded up and detained thousands of muslim Americans and their families! There was very little resistance from the vast majority of the american populace. They said to themselves ‘it ok,because it will never happen to me’.
Now that we’ve all lost habeus corpus, it can happen to all of us.
I am reposting my initial reaction to this article before this thread was created and Moon-howler reported Lucky Duck’s explanation re. the Cadillac:
Wonderful. Prince William County is shelling out $10 million dollars so that 5% of people reported to ICE are deported. Meanwhile every other locality in Virginia will basically get the same drop in the bucket for free. Thanks Corey Stewart!
To further explain:
ICE can only handle 5 percent of the people identified to them as undocumented. The other 95 percent are let go.
Unless the person committed a violent crime, they’re let go.
There is limited jail space. Either we lock up the people who commit violent crimes or we lock up the people who failed to stop at a stop sign. Which would you rather have locked up? Which would you rather have back on the street?
If you’re upset that year Spanish when you go to the store, or upset that your neighbors are brown, then I’m sorry, this law is not going to make you any happier. In fact, 287G was never going to help you.
If you want law enforcement to continue to keep our communities safe, then this news is really not news.
They already prioritize based on risk to the community. There will be more people reported to ICE as undocumented because all the jails will be doing what PWC is doing … post arrest status checks (only they narrow this down to foreign born individuals and we check everyone post-arrest).
What does this mean? It means that undocumented immigrants will be incarcerated at the same rate, essentially, that other sub-groups are incarcerated. It all depends on the seriousness of the crime. Would you want it any other way?
The ones that committed a violent or drug-related crime get detainers. That’s fine with me and fine by most. What’s not fine by me is that we have paid out 10 MILLION DOLLARS, plus all the over-time pay for county staff and our police department having to deal with Duecaster Dissater fall-out, PLUS all the time this took away from their ACTUAL JOBS serving this community. We’ve paid all of this for the same stupid 5 percent (which will soon drop down to 2 percent) that all the other localities get for free.
Thanks Corey Stewart!
I think I can explain why Gerhart says we are getting something for our money above and beyond what other localities get.
The new state law requires jail officials to notify the Feds of all foreign born inmates (including naturalized citizens like Arnold Schrawrtzenagger and legal immigrants like Corey Stewart’s wife). This means that ICE will be contemplating deporting these people after they serve their time. Fine with me. (Would anyone object to deportation being part of the penalty for committing a crime serious enough to land you in jail? I hope not, because that would be off topic.)
ICE can only handle what they can handle, however, so they will continue to put detainers on 5 percent of those who are reported to them. In fact, that 5 percent rate will almost certainly drop because there will be more names in the cue.
What Gerhart is saying is that Prince William County will be putting MORE names into the 5-percent-or-less cue than most other juristictions.
We will be putting more names in because we are checking status at the arrest stage, as opposed to at incarceration. About half the people we arrest are released on bond (this also has to do with jail space and is decided based on risk to the community).
So, in addition to the dangerous criminals who end up in jail, we are also reporting the not-so-dangerous people who are released because they are not judged to be as much of a risk to the community.
We’ll be reporting these people to ICE, but … think about it. If they weren’t considered dangerous to even put in jail, how do you think they’ll stack up with the inmates who are incarcerated being reported to ICE from other jurisdictions? Not very well.
ICE will focus on the ones who are in jail because they are (1) easier to find and (2) a greater risk to the community by the fact that they are in jail as opposed to released on bond.
Bottom line: the tremendous costs of the Immigration Resolution, our ruined reputation and our severely damaged economy, the cuts we have been forced to make to social programs that improved our quality of life, and 10 MILLION DOLLARS of tax payer money … all of that was traded for essentially nothing. We are less safe as a result of destroying our reputation and our economy than we were before. Thanks Corey Stewart!
WHWN,
That was my initial reaction:
As you know, I have been a strong supporter of the 287g program and I am going to say I still am, at the moment. I am not going to have a knee jerk reaction but I sure want to acertain that my caddy has a set of michelins.
Question for everyone: Where did this law come from. Am I the only one who was blind-sided by it? I never really heard about it until this morning, unless it was disguised as something else. I would have thought that HSM would have trumpeted it from the rooftops. On the other hand, it sort of sounded like Albo threw HSM under the bus. I don’t know all the ins and outs of Republican politics so perhaps I am missing a big chunk of the real picture.
This new law is not a replacement or even related to the 287 g program. I don’t know why anyone would think so.
This is a program to specifically single out and track foreign born American citizens who should be accorded the full rights of any American citizen.
Single them out and track them for what purpose?
The fact that this tracking of people does not differentiate between American citizen or illegal alien should be a big red flag for all of us.
Their privacy deserves to be respected just like any of us. Just because someone is in the local county jail doesn’t mean the federal government needs or has a right to know about it. If you spent a day in jail because you didn’t pay your parking tickets or you were drunk in public, that is none of the federal government’s business unless they can show a compelling reason to acquire this information.
This is why we have states rights. To protect us and our privacy from the federal government. Virginia is failing us here. How long before they start tracking the children of foreign born who are muslim-Americans and who have spent 1 day in jail? And does this law apply to people who arrested and then subsequently beat the charges and were freed? They proved themselves innocent but now they end up on a list someplace because of a cop’s mistake? Is this the American way?
This new law is not about illegal immigration.
If you are foreign born full American Citizen and arrested by the police over a misunderstanding and taken downtown for some minor misdemeanor, does this mean you end up on a secret list somewhere for the rest of your life?
M-H, I had heard there were a lot of laws up for consideration in Richmond re. illegal immigration. I don’t know where it came from, but it sounds like yet another law that is all politics and no action. It might sound good to some people that all foreign born people are reported to the Feds, but what will the result be? A lot of talk and not a lot of action.
During the chaotic period between July 10 and October 16, 2007, the County Executive’s office was always talking about “the small end of the funnel.” ICE had told them they could only handle 40 detainers a month, meaning, no matter how many names you pour into the large end of the funnel, only 40 per month are getting deported.
Those 40 are going to be the “worst of the worst,” they kept saying. Meaning those who have committed the really violent crimes will be deported before those who committed other types of crimes (murder before shoplifting before drunk in public, etc.).
It then came as little surprise that, under the old policy (approved on Oct. 16th 2007 and in effect for only 2 months in 2008) we had absolutely zero benefit from adding people who’s only crime was a broken tail light to the large end of the funnel.
There was just no way in hell they were getting through tot the small end of the funnel.
When the Supervisors voted to neuter the policy on April 29th, they did so knowing that we were spending all this money … AND taking our officers off the street where they would otherwise be keeping us safer … to add more names to a process that ultimately results in a lot of paperwork but little else. We were forced to let the broken tail-light people go because we didn’t have jail space..
So this new law at the state level will do the same thing: add more names to the top of the funnel. Only in this case, they aren’t concerned with legal status. You just have to be foreign born, and end up jail. More paperwork. Same small end of the funnel. All talk, no action. That’s politics.
I am going to defend Corey Stewart for a moment. This might be the one and only time so here it goes. I believe most of us here on this blog were pretty satisfied and supportive of the 287g program at the ADC. The 287g program was initially budgeted long before this state legislation was signed by the governor. No one had any idea the feds state program was coming to life in the 2008 Legislative Session. I don’t blame Corey for this overlap, if it is indeed an overlap.
I think there is horrible mass confusion still about how all these programs work. I suggest that Eric and Annabel set up another gathering except this time, have a spokesperson to explain all of this and who can answer these questions rather than all of us throwing around misinformation. Suggestions for a speaker (actually, an enlightener): ADC Superintendent Pete Meletis, Chief Deane, County Executive Craig Gerhart or a knowledgeable spokesperson from any of those departments.
Let’s face it, the average person doesn’t know about how the jail and prison process work for legal residents, much less how it works for illegal aliens. I think we all want straight facts, without lies and bs.
Would other people be interested and would Eric and Annabel be willing to obtain an official speaker. I seriously don’t want to hear anyone’s opinion (other than on here) I want FACTS. I also want to ascertain that my cadillac has wheels on it.
Mackie, yes, that is one of the more disturbing things about this. The rights of legal citizens who happen to be foreign born, including Arnold Schwartzenegger and Corey Stewart’s wife, are compromised by our wonderful new state law.
NGL, the webinars are leading to face-to-face pilot study circles in the fall in PW.
I’m not a fan of retreats. I say pick a vacant, foreclosed house in the most dismal neighborhood in the county. Put all decision-makers to work cleaning it out, mowing the tall grass, painting over graffiti, working side by side with a diverse crew of citizen volunteers from all walks of life. Then, rent back room at any local restaurant, keep the food coming, and hash out your solutions to problems.
“If you’re upset that year Spanish when you go to the store”
Here’s a novel idea: increase the ESL we now offer and encourage people to learn English. You will still hear Spanish, but you will be able to engage in a conversation.
“If you are foreign born full American Citizen and arrested by the police over a misunderstanding and taken downtown for some minor misdemeanor, does this mean you end up on a secret list somewhere for the rest of your life?” Probably, Mackie. You’re now labeled as foreign born. To me, this sounds like outright discrimination. Are the armbands coming?
This is what happens when we get enforcement only.
Cindy, I would stay home. I have enough chores to do at my own house. I would say your plan would work in a perfect world.
whwn, are you suggesting that perhaps this new law is a homeland security issue that has nothing to do with illegal immigration? How ridiculous to include Arnold and Mrs. Stewart. What a waste of time.
Now you have me really liking my cadillac even if it doesn’t have wheels.
“whwn, are you suggesting that perhaps this new law is a homeland security issue”
Sounds like it to me.
kgotthardt,
Can I get one that’s black with red trim and a Che Guevara print on it where it looks like there’s flames around his hair? If we’re gonna be branded, the least they can do is let us pick the style to match our wardrobe. Kinda like an ipod.
Here’s another idea kgotthardt. Stop with public funding of ESOL altogether. And only let people immigrate in who can speak the national language. Makes sense to me, and probably to most people.
Rick, obviously you have never met people who are citizens who are still learning English. They might have passed the test but need more instruction.
If we want people to assimilate, we must let them do so.
And probably, you should not presume to speak for “most people.”
Where are all the usual posters who are naturalized citizens and who have spouses who are – or are trying to become – naturalized citizens? You know, the posters we routinely hear saying, “it’s not legal citizens we’re talking about” or “what part of illegal don’t you understand”. Those posters. The ones with the easily memorized sound bites from FAIR – that organization that doesn’t like immigration. How are they going to feel if they get picked up for speeding or accidently t-bone a car at an intersection? Now their names may be on some mysterious list.
Censored bybvbl,
Thank you for pointing out the silence from those who say ‘its only about illegals’!
This new law is quite scary in how it passed right under the radar. Could this new law be supported behind the scenes by the likes of FAIR?
WHWN, deportations do not begin “whenever we say” under a 287(G) program.
In the 287(G), there are specific officers in the ADC or on a local police department who are “certified” under U. S. Code with limited immigration powers that are usually the purview of ICE. Each of these ADC Officers/Police Officers can conduct all of the necessary background and paperwork on a person here illegally. They then submit the recommendation to the ICE agent – who by U. S. Code – must act as the program supervisor – and who, again by U. S. Code, must be the representative who initates the deportation proceedings. So, does this get Prince William a boost up? All of the background and paperwork is already done, so ICE is saved the most difficult tasks and its a lot easier and faster to hand over a finished file to begin deportation rather than having to put that file together yourself if you are ICE.
Things I find interesting:
* Concerned about the foreign born component regardless of immigration status, what are we looking for here? Is it only immigration status or are we collecting this information for some other purpose?
* 287(g) was authorized in 1996 under Clinton but if I’m reading the article correctly it only started 5 years ago, that would be around 2003. So, for 7 years the program was authorized but not enacted.
* Imagine 60 jurisdictions and ICE can not handle sufficiently handle the work load. What then was the possible purpose for filling out these forms on the ‘probable cause’ encounters?
“If we want people to assimilate, we must let them do so.”
Not on my tax dollars.
This bill really treats foreign-born citizens differently than those born here? Strange and disheartening. A few observations :
1. I read a claim that Fairfax is 40% immigrants? And Albo represents Fairfax? truly, we are seeing politicians do some strange dances to try to placate constituents and remove themselves from culpability the next time an illegal alien kills or rapes someone in their district.
2. Our lilly-livered Governor SIGNED such a bill? Shows you what integrity he has. Again, I think he’s extremely fearful of the anger next time a criminal illegal commits murder or rape and we find that kaine’s government let him skate last time.
3. The bill doesn’t sound constitutional on the face of it.
4. The bill actually sounds pretty ineffectual. It will just provide ICE with more scratch paper to doodle on. Thank God I live in PWC where we have 287(g).
I’m sitting here in PWC with my popcorn, watching the show start in Fairfax.
Lucky Duck,
What possible reason could Virginia have to start collecting information on United States Citizens just because they are foreign born and then turning this information over to the Federal Government?
Do you know if this information will be collected for foreign born citizens who are arrested and taken to the ADC but don’t spend the night in jail?
Do you know if this information will be collected for foreign born citizens who are arrested and brought before the magistrate and released on their own recognizance?
Do you know if this information will be collected for foreign born citizens who are arrested and taken to the ADC but later completely beat the charges?
Are there any circumstances where this information will be collected without the foreign born citizen actually having gone to jail?
Rick, sorry you don’t get a line item veto on how your tax dollars are spent. If we did, I would be abolishing all sorts of things, starting with the IRS and the war in Iraq. Most immigrants come to America with very limited English skills. Historically, this is nothing new. Furthermore, it isn’t the point of this thread.
Lucky Duck, now I am hearing from you and TPWB, I think I am going to keep my Cadillac. However, it does sound like we are still at the mercy of ICE and it is an area we have limited control over other than our end of the paperwork. Am I reading this correctly?
I think the WAPO article was very confusing and was very much like sticking a stick in a hornet’s nest.
Rick Bentley,
It is a Trojan horse laying the groundwork for rounding these people up in a national emergency just because they are foreign born.
If there is an outcry, the Feds will just say ‘Hey, we’re only rounding up those who spent time in jail’.
See how it works?
First they marginalize you in the eyes of the public. Then they take your rights.
My mother is foreign born. What happens to her if she gets into a bad accident, and the cop mistakenly blames her and takes her downtown until we can post her bail? Will she be rounded up too after a national emergency?
If they come to my door to take her to an internment camp…
This is the bill that was proposed by Del. Albo , HB 820 and signed by Gov. Kaine.
19.2-83.2. Jail officer to ascertain citizenship of inmate.
Whenever any person is taken into custody at any jail, the sheriff or other officer in charge of such facility shall inquire as to whether the person (i) was born in a country other than the United States, and (ii) is a citizen of a country other than the United States. The sheriff or other officer in charge of such facility shall make an immigration alien query to the Law Enforcement Support Center of United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement for any person who (i) was born in a country other than the United States, and (ii) is a citizen of a country other than the United States, or for whom the answers to (i) or (ii) are unknown. The sheriff or other officer in charge shall communicate the results of any immigration alien query to the Local Inmate Data System of the State Compensation Board. The State Compensation Board shall communicate monthly the findings of any immigration alien query, which results in a confirmation that the person is illegally present in the United States, to the Central Criminal Records Exchange of the Department of State Police in a format approved by the Exchange. The information received by the Central Criminal Records Exchange concerning the person’s immigration status shall be recorded in the person’s criminal history record
It SOUNDS like that trojan horse. Signed by a Governor who has fought to turn Virginia into a sanctuary state, out of fear of offending any immigrants legal or illegal. I think though that there will be no internment camp for legal residents, this is just some crazed political flailing about by the incompetant people who run our state.
Mackie, I hate to say it but your mother is better off being in America than she is in most countries. Can you suggest one that is better with human and civil rights? We aren’t perfect but I don’t think anarchy is the solution to our faults.
Not to use a tired old quote but here it goes:
Sir Winston Churchill, Hansard, November 11, 1947
British politician (1874 – 1965)
Lucky Duck,
The phrase
can you explain this phrase a little further.
Can you be ‘taken into custody at a jail’ before you have been convicted of a crime? If so, under what circumstances?
The Albo document states that the jail officer
1. Asks if that person was born in a country other than the US
2. Asks if the person is a citizen of a country other than the United States
3. The officer makes an immigration check for any person born in a country other than the US and is a citizen of another country or if that information is unknown.
Below is a link to the document
http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2008/hb820/
I’ll leave the interpretation of this document alone, but the phrase “taken into custody at a jail” means you are presented to the jail for incarceration or admitting. Yes, you can be place into a jail or detention facility BEFORE conviction if you are held without a bond by a Magistrate or if you fail to make the bond set for you by the Magistrate.
Okay, that makes sense. I support the bill. My apologies for buying into the usual Washington Post disinformation and proceeding to run with that disinformation.
The query is in regards to citizenship. The question about foreign born is information discarded, not collated, when the arrested person proves citizenship.
Looks like Governor Kaine is doing a real 180 on whether he wants sanctuary for illegal aliens in Virginia.
Doesn’t ‘taken into custody’ mean ‘arrested?’
Lucky Duck, What would you say the purpose of this legislation is? What will it do for us? (leaving politics aside)
We still have more in PWC – Rule Of Law gives officers the right to arrest someone if they’re found, say, driving without a license rather than letting them go and pretending they’ll show up in court.
It basically creates the fear that SHOULD EXIST in illegals about driving on our roads.
Rick, would you be comfortable with everyone driving without a license being arrested?
Moon-howler, yes I think that would be good.
Rick,
I don’t have a problem with that either. Unlicensed drivers cost the American public a fortune. Now, is that a law? I don’t know.
Actually, anyone driving without a license, legal or illegal, can be physically arrested and taken before a Magistrate if the officer on the scene feels they will disregard the summons or can’t positively ID the person. Example, if the person had been charged with the same offense before or if they have no valid ID on them etc.
This legislation is much weaker than the 287(G) program. It simply requires the jails throughout the State to notify ICE when they have an illegal alien in custody. In all probability ICE will run the names and see who they are, if they are even in their system or not. If they have failed to appear for a deportation hearing or have been deported before, ICE will look very very close at them and probably express an interest in them.
It’s something, it’s progress, but we need more from our government.
We need some public officials who are willing to push things hard. Willing to try to embarass the Bush Administration.
Someone who will say, hey, we’re not going to let illegal aliens in our school unless you the federal government are going to pick up the bill. And certainly no ESOL classes.
Lucky Ducky,
If the police stop you walking on the street or in a car and they can’t articulate probable cause for stopping you, do you have the right to refuse to give them your name and your ID until they can articulate probable cause?
Rick, let’s think about what you just said for a minute. Why on earth would you want to do away with ESOL classes? One the one hand there is all this grousing and complaining, not necessarily from you of course, over foreigners not assimilating and not speaking English. Others complain that there are signs in Spanish or other languages, depending on where one is.
You understand that ESOL is a crash course in English for kids, don’t you? It is only intense for like the first 2 years, then it gradually tapers off.
The federal government is famous for unfunded mandates, especially in the field of education. One of the reasons ESOL is so structured is because it supplements the federal No Child Left Behind mandate. ESOL has been around a long time and has gone through many names.
Rick, I forgot to mention to you….you don’t tell the feds what you suggest. The response comes back in the form of ‘you and whose army’ …..Supreme Court decision. Also, why would you want any children running around illiterate. That is bound to cause you problems down the road.
“Rick Bentley, 28. July 2008, 13:21
“If we want people to assimilate, we must let them do so.”
“Not on my tax dollars.”
“They” and I pay taxes as well.
And remember, ESL is just another type of English. We have ESL students who do better in English than traditional students!
But enough on ESL. I don’t want to hijack.
Mackie, if you are pulled over in a car, the police must have a reasonable suspicion or probable cause for doing so. Probable Cause is needed to issue a summons though, reasonable suspicion won’t do for that. If you are walking and asked for ID, the same standard applies. If you refuse to give your name, in Prince William, you are ok, unless the officer has reasonable suspicion or probable cause which is usually shared by the officer pretty quick to get the ID. Some Counties, Cities and Towns have a statute on the books for identification, Prince William does not.
If you are pulled over and asked for your license, you are better off giving your license and then ask the reason for the stop. The officer should, at some point, tell you why you were pulled over. If you’re walking, its not as complicated for the officer and its easier to ask the reason and refuse if there is no reasonable suspicion or Probable Cause. If you refuse when you’ve been driving, you’d better be sure everything is perfect on your car and you have committed no offenses as driving is not a right as the Supreme Court has ruled, its a privledge. Walking around is of course, is a right, in most cases (trespassing etc.). But if the officer has Reasonable suspicion or Probable Cause, they eventually can demand ID. It makes it a whole lot easier if they explain why to you and you can ask.
Lucky Ducky,
Are we within our rights to refuse to give our license UNTIL he can articulate his probable cause?
Isn’t the officer required by law to immediately tell us the reason for the stop as soon as we ask? Isn’t he in the wrong if he refuses to tell us why he stopped us when asked?
No, the officer is not required by any legal statute to tell why you were stopped but it just makes sense to do so and eliminates any argument before it starts. You cannot withhold your license if you are driving on the highways of Virginia, you are required to show your license to the officer if you are stopped. Of course, they have to have PC or reasonable suspicion to stop you. If you feel they did not have the PC or suspicions, you are entitled to ask at any time and hopefully they will and should tell you. If not, ,you are free to file a complain afterwards. But you risk escalating the stop if you are driving and refuse to show your license. You’ll wind up in front of a Magistrate with a bond hearing and having your car towed.
Most, if not all officers, will tell you why you were stopped at some point. It just eliminates the exact argument you mentioned. But there is no legal requirement for them to do so as soon as you ask. In fact, if you receive a traffic summons, it will have the offense/reason written out for you but it should not go that far without you knowing, but it legally is permitted.
Lucky Ducky,
In the following video a BP agent forcibly opens a persons car door against the individual’s will at frame 6:44 and then he forcibly pulls the person out of the car against the individual’s will at frame 9:38.
The whole time this BP agent cannot articulate a reason to conduct a search of this person even though asked repeatedly asked to do so. The whole time the individual forced out of the car clearly articulates that he does not agree to being removed from the car and searched.
The BP agent tries to get away with using force by asking the person ‘Please step out of the car’ WHILE he is simultaneously forcing the guy out of the car. As if asking this question will nullify the fact that he is physically forcing this individual to submit to an illegal search and seizure.
Isn’t the BP agent violating the 4th amendment rights of this individual?
Did not this individual have the right to resist this illegal search and seizure?
Here’s the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFRObbSDDo
Gee maybe BoS would like to process tax returns at local expense to help the FEDs as well.
I would like to second Alanna’s question:
“* Concerned about the foreign born component regardless of immigration status, what are we looking for here? Is it only immigration status or are we collecting this information for some other purpose?”
I still cannot help but to think this immigration debate is nothing but a distraction, otherwise we would NOT be where we are today. Where are we today?????? Left with a lot of questions!
Immigrants that have become citizens can be deported for various reasons namely a henious crime. They might consider it welcome as opposed to the dealth penalty.
As was stated at the beginning of PWC’s foray into federal territory immigration law is complex. Or my favourite observation- how many times have you known the feds to relinquish authority? Guess they were smart and hung a pork chop around the neck of 287(g).
How do we know that if we arr getting our moneys worth by preparing reports? Beginning to sound like The Emporer’s New Clothes to me
“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.”
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
LOL, SOOOOOOOOO who do we ask for the truth?
sorry, couldn’t RESIST
Why isn’t my vid post going through?
Red Dawn,
Good question. They like to tell us we can’t handle the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocLZ7S69QQU&feature=related
Mackie,
10 fingers and toes up to Jack…the man is talented and stands alone
This is beginning to sound like a cross between Lucky Luciano and the Xfiles.
I want to believe. The Truth is out there.
Lucky Luciano was paroled on the condition he deport.
Katherine, I don’t know. It just does that. Email Alanna.
Mackie, I am well aware of your anti checkpoint views, even though the Supreme Court has rule repeatedly that they are permissible with guidelines. Many local departments have used them for years and have set up guidelines that meet the Court requirements. They have been ruled as a legal tactic and I don’t mind a few minutes for the safety of everyone on the road.
Your statement of the BP Agent failing to articulate a reason for the subject to step out of the car I disagree with completely. I stopped counting at 8 or 9 times where the BP agent told the person that they failed to follow directions at the checkpoint and attempted to evade being waved over. You and I cannot see that point so we’ll leave it alone but the subject did say that it was a “misunderstanding” that they missed the other BP agent’s signal. So the BP agent has reasonble suspicion about the vehicle’s action.
The BP agent also informed the subject no less than a dozen times that if he didn’t step out of the vehicle, he would be removed. That is permissible as he has reasonable suspicion to check the occupants based upon the agreed upon point that they did not correctly stop at the checkpoint. The subject has refused numerous times to present identification.
The BP Agent asked/told the subject and ungodly amount of times to step out of the car and when he finally pulled him out he was still talking to him about coming out.
From reading your already stated opinion, nothing I say or write will change your opinion on the actions of the BP or vehicle checkpoints. So I will ask you, based upon the legality of the checkpoints – they are allowed and the vehicle admittedly did something suspicious at the checkpoint, what would you expect the agent to do, just walk away after having reasonable suspicion? We’ll probably wind up disagreeing, but that is my opinion for what its worth.
Mackie,
I was glad YOU asked (
I wanted to know too ) and I have to agree with Lucky Duck as his observation of the video was the same as mine.
I am satisfied that this was within reason 
I also QUESTIONED what happened at the stop-(misunderstanding,etc., NOT caught on film BUT he( camera guy) even stated it himself that there was room for misunderstanding) So what other alternative for him to take him or walk away? It works both ways
While I wait for my post of the total cost of illegal immigration to get though moderation (due to the links posted with it as data sources), I just want to remind everyone (no-one in particular) that the cost of continued illegal immigration is far larger than the total cost of deportation and law enforcement. By credible estimates as explained in my post in moderation is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
Are we THAT stupid?
As I said before the proper answer is to check EVERYONE for legal status (literally every person) at ANY encounter with the police. The concern for getting caught and deported will be high enough to cause MOST of the 12-20 million illegal immigrant community to leave of their own free will saving us BILLIONS of dollars.
Nothing else in the past has ever worked other than strict law enforcement, and nothing other than this in the future will even make a dent in the uncontrolled growth of “illegal” immigration and the uncontrollable costs to the nation as a result of it.
I too agree with lucky duck, his reasoning is sound on this, which is why I support the law enforcement solution above all others proposed (on everyone the same, and everyone the police encounter) as the only one that is effective in reducing uncontrolled growth of “illegal” immigration, and its associated costs to us and our communities in hundreds of widely documented ways.
That is not a radical hateful position it is a realistic reality position.
Michael,
I would like to ask you what your thoughts are due to the lack of border/immigration control for decades that has led us to such things as The Patriot Act, the wire tapping , etc ( not sure of the bill name) to something else that just recently passed, to THIS article and WTF?
What laws do you want to enforce, that we ALREADY had on our books to do so? What other liberties do you want to loose?
Michael, I guess you aren’t a rule of law kind of guy? You just can’t make up laws to suit what you think.
By the way, no disrespect with WTF? IT just seems ( as seen in the thread) every time you turn around, they tack on a NEW…wtf, that was NOT already taken care of
Michael, 28. July 2008, 21:01
While I wait for my post of the total cost of illegal immigration to get though moderation (due to the links posted with it as data sources), I just want to remind everyone (no-one in particular) that the cost of continued illegal immigration is far larger than the total cost of deportation and law enforcement. By credible estimates as explained in my post in moderation is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
Agreed – the cost to deport, according to Ted Kennedy in his testimony to Congress, would be $41 billion per year over 5 years to deport all 10 million people. Compare this to Los Angeles, which along spends $2 billion per year on welfare, education and health care for people that are here illegally. An even more conservative cost per year is $70 billion nationwide for welfare, education and health care for illegal immigrants. So – $41 billion lost but $70 billion saved – comes out to +$29 billion. And we’re LOSING money? Don’t think so -
We have had border control for decades. It just hasn’t been adequate.
“Man is not free unless government is limited. There’s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: As government expands, liberty contracts.”
Ronald W. Reagan
Moon-howler,
“We have had border control for decades. It just hasn’t been adequate.”
Yes, we have. Or not enforced?
I think some of you are missing the point of the state law. It states that any person arrested (regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic group) will be questioned about their foreign born status, and their “legal” status. EVERYONE will be questioned. If determined in this status check to be “illegal”, they will then go into a national crime center database.
Since “illegal” immigration is governed by a “federal” statute, it is a basis to create a national crime database to DEPORT these “Illegal” immigrants so identified at whatever funding resource and rate we can afford to deport them. In the future we will likely deputize, other federal, state and local law enforcement resources to assist ICE in the same way we can “deputize” with the same restrictions of “posse comitatus” military and government resources to help and assist ATF officers to do drug interdictions.
This is a serious national problem, a threat to our very democratic existance and our legal system in the future if we cannot and will not stop it now. You have only to look at the ethnic class wars in other nations to see the direction and impact “uncontrolled” illegal immigration will have on our nation.
Some of you on this blog are already involved in radical resistance to law and law enforcement, preferring lawlessness and anarchy to democracy and lawfulness.
NGL wants to invite them all back. While we’re at it lets throw a party for MS-13, and give them a couple cases of spray paint to show there’s no hard feelings. I can’t wait until the only problem in PWC is the overcrowding at the 7-11 parking lots! Ah yes, it would be heaven on earth!
“Some of you on this blog are already involved in radical resistance to law and law enforcement, preferring lawlessness and anarchy to democracy and lawfulness.”
I would like to know if you consider me on this “roll call”?
I am in NO way advocating lawlessness/anarchy. I am simply ASKING a question of WHY.
or hell- Awcheney, other people that are starting to ask QUESTIONS )while due to the inaction/enforcement of our already EXISTING laws are stuck right here, right now…asking questions 
?
Why are we now in the position that we have The patriot Act., etc ( help me out Mackie, lol
Red-Dawn, I do not believe we are losing liberties, when we enforce existing law. We have a situation where pwoplw have expected “liberties” and “freedom from the law” they have never had in the entire history of our constitution. Because law enforcement of existing law was not enforced, people assumed incorrectly this was a “liberty and right” when it has never been.
Wire-tapping has always been allowed with a warrent and under the jurisdiction of the CIA to deal with foreign espionage. 9-11 is foreign espionage, and “illegal” immigration has proven that many “illegals” are foreign espionage elements. Finding them with wire tapping and coopration from the phone companies has kept us from having more bombs exploded in our subways, our federal and commercial buildings and has prevented much “imposible to measure” future death of everyday citizens.
If you can trust our military to do what is right, to protect us overseas, then you cab trust our federal agents (HS, ATF, ICE, CIA, FBI and DIA) to do what is right and LEGAL with these laws to protect us.
You are not giving up any liberty, you are gaining individual security, THAT NO OTHER NATION involved with ethnic, and religious class wars, and with terrorist war with the United States has yet shown protection from. That is why you have significant terrorist incidents in other nations of the world and not the US.
Only CRIMINALS, gangsters, mafia bosses, and terrorists have anything to fear from these wiretapping laws.
If you can trust a soldier to carry and use a gun lawfully, and not shoot innocent civilians at ALL COST (except to protect himself using strict ROE) you can trust that same soldier to carry and use a wiretap lawfully to find and kill those same combatants.
Terrorists are legal combatants. Illegal immigrants are lawbreakers, that need to be punished by the existing law we have always had.
“Why on earth would you want to do away with ESOL classes?”
Because – they are encouraging continued illegal immigration. For now, make it clear to any child’s parents that they will be responsible for this burden, not the taxpayers. People shouldn’t be immigrating here unless they are fluent in English – never, under any circumstance. Unlike Barack Obama, I don’t think family members should be let in for reunification. Especially if they don’t speak English.
Let’s get pragmatic about use of our tax dollars and use America’s resources to help Americans. Our charity and good will have created a crisis situation and we need to dig our way out of it if we want to maintain our way of life. Hospitals are closing, schools disintegrating, wages stagnating so don’t tell me it’s not a crisis.
Rick, the CIA often gets useful info from informants who then have a target painted on their backs if they stay in their homelands. We owe them a debt. They can learn English later.
We are beginning to lose our shirt in the global economy, and adding millions of uneducated adults to the nation isn’t going to help. Soon half the people in this country will in some way be supporting the other half.
I noticed a new used car lot on Rt28 flying a big green, white, and red banner publicizing in Spanish that Spanish is spoken there. How nice that they are helping NGL bring back those industrious folks who can’t speak English.
What do you think a “war on terror” and a “war on illegal” immigrants is? In the first case it is a legal combatant war to stop terrorist and foreign militants from destroying democracy in our nation, when they CLEARLY intend to do so with internal infiltration of our society. In the second case it is a legal law enforcement campaign to stop people from “illegally” entring our country at alarming rates, and to deport those who are already here “illegally” from creating even more havoc and destruction on our socvety than they already have with their “non-remorseful” unlawful bahavior.
Our nation can only be a stable and safe DEMOCRACY, when we can enforce individual law on everyone the same, have a one person, one vote, uncorrupted legal system (now under attack by illegal immigrant subversive elements) and a “controlled and legal” influx of ONLY “legal” people into the country. Fighting either of these legal and just democratic laws and concepts is national subversion and undermining of national security by subversive and corrupt militant propoganda and lawless ideology destructive to the very concept of DEMOCRACY.
I DON’T know Michael, just asking questions….
NOTE: 2:00 ( of course watch the whole thing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOSAkX4pfY
“We owe them a debt. ”
Not citizenship. I don’t think our government should be giving that away. I particularly resent the way they pick and choose countries like El Salvador to grant bogus “protected status” to, for reasons of their own that they are not held accountable for.
Red Dawn, I think one way for you to lose your fear of “big brother” is to join the military and take a tour to one of the countries having ethnic and religious class wars (Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Korea, China, Columbia, Peru, El Salvador, Phillipines, Malaysia, Somilia, Chad, Niger, etc) and see how your military training will teach you to be one of the most ETHICAL and JUST people in the nation, and give you a heavy dose of reality regarding the UNETHICAL and Malicious nature of many of the nation’s people who are now here in our country “illegally” who came from countries who are neck deep in law enforcement corruption, political corruption, ethnic and religious class wars. See how corrupt their government, judges, and police are and then come back and tell me you are still afraid of our law US enforcement tools, designed to protect all of us from people who are like all of them.
You begin to understand what DEMOCRACY, ETHICS, LAW and CHARACTER really mean.
You will not get this from the general public, or anyone on this blog who is heavily involved in fear and ethnic radicalism with a real desrie to undermine our legal system, promote anarchy, lawlessness and undermine DEMOCRACY as they put their own criminal element people into local and state government positions. This “illegal” growth will eventually corrupt the entire legal system in the same way it has been in these ethnic and religious class warring nations.
Michael,
“Red Dawn, I think one way for you to lose your fear of “big brother” is to join the military and take a tour to one of the countries having ethnic and religious class wars”
TRUST me, I thought about it, to see it for myself BUT I am too CHICKEN SHIT.
No disrespect to the ONES that put their lives and families on hold for me to type this to you with NO disrespect. I would just question, that it all comes down to commands, do what you are told..what do THEY ( active military know, right NOW, as things are exchanged in Congress?)and IF they could speak, what would they really say?
….not so much that I am chicken shit, just have to many questions to jump that band wagon ( NO wonder, they recruit YOUNG) and NO disrespect to all that serve, served and have family serving
I watched the whole thing Red Dawn, I do not agree with or believe what the analyst claims is a “loss of freedom or liberty” or something to be afraid of. The bill is specifically targeting radical militant and subversive ideological race, gender, religious and ethnic “groups” that rise up against our Democracy guaranteed to all the “people” as “individuals” by the governemt and Consitution, with intent to destroy this democracy using politcial and physical force, as INTERNAL enemies of the nation, in the same definition as targeting radical militant and subversive ideological race, gender, religious and ethnic “groups” that rise of against Democracy with intent to destroy this nation and its democracy using political and physical force as EXTERNAL enemies of the nation.
Because most of you have NEVER seen these types of people operate in a foreign war on foreign soil, you refuse to believe and can’t believe they have now infiltrated our nation “internally” with no change in their goal to destroy democracy. Some of these people may actually be commenting on this blog and you have no idea of their true intent, hatred of democracy, or foreign loyalty. Many of these radical ideology people who are now an INTERNAL threat to our security rather than in the past just an EXTERNAL threat to our security are now prepared to fight on our own soil to harm us, politically and physically, just like Germany, Russia, China, Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Afganistan, Iran and Iraq did and still are in many cases still trying to harm us now.
This resolution is a tool rooted in the concept of democracy and the constitution to protect democracy from all enimies foreign and DOMESTIC that will be needed by our MILITARY, CIA and FBI to shift the war effort internally if we cannot contain it externally.
If you are not planning to subvert democracy and promote anarchy and lawlessness, you have no need to fear this tool the US military must use to fight an internal war with terrorism and find those terrorist elements in our “illegal” immigrant population.
Local law enforcement will do it first and preserve the peace by peaceful enforcement of the existing law, but if it fails, and the military is needed, it will be an internal war as well as an external war, you are going to have to accept, if you do nothing to stop it, or continue to promote race, gender, religious and ethnic political groups that will hasten its arrival. You have only to look at the events of the rest of the world in dealing with these groups to see it coming and know it has already arrived here, shopping at your local walmart until called to action by radical military leaders.
Michael,
ONE more thing
I am going to bed BUT with this last thought- I am comfortable with “Big Brother” as I am aware that it has been around and continues to grow. ( for YEARS,nothing new )
Big Brother is not really the issue of concern, as I have been saying ( jokingly ) for years that you cannot get away with anything…hence the street cameras, to the store surveillances,satellites, cell phones….
With that said, it just magnifies my reason of WHY do we NEED modify our already existing laws?
Red Dawn it it helps, one of the cornerstones of military training is a deep awareness of political corruption, by political leaders and a “command right” held by EVERY soldier by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, is the right to REFUSE an illegal order on MORAL grounds. You might get court martialed if no-one else agrees with you, but every soldier has that basic right and duty to make that call ON the SPOT, before executing any given order. Every soldier is also legally accountable to the law under the UCMJ, which is much more strict on the soldier’s moral behavior, than CIVILIAN LAW.
I believe our troops are some of the best trained to rely on, than any country in the world to preserve and protect YOUR freedoms and the freedoms of their OWN families.
I think yours and others fear of “Big Brother” is not justified when you look at the reality of law enforcement professionalism and military professionalism (unless you are a lawbreaker or criminal yourself), when you are afraid of the military and our law enforcement, and our democracy, which has professionals far more astute to individual and civil liberty than any “political loudmouth” hate group with a radical, racial, gender, religious, ethnic group political advocacy position.
Michael,
Note the times of OUR exchange in comments….I asked when you were answering a prior question.
Thank you, I am going to bed BUT you gave me something else to ponder.
Peace
We only modify existing law, when the current law does not ensure our safety from criminals, terrorists, and lawbreakers. It’s that simple.
Good nite Red Dawn, I hope you trust my opinion as a result of years of military service against people whose goal it is to hurt us. I can recognize them quite easily now, they are typically the ones against the law, and against democracy, promoting anarchy, rebellion, socialism and lawlessness.
Lucky Duck,
Your style of analysis is interesting. Could you please try to analyze this interesting video and tell me if the BP agents were acting responsibly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRk3awO1Jq0
Michael,
“Red Dawn it it helps, one of the cornerstones of military training is a deep awareness of political corruption, by political leaders and a “command right” held by EVERY soldier by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, is the right to REFUSE an illegal order on MORAL grounds”
YES IT DOES HELP AS MUCH AS I WOULD HOPE!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!
“I think yours and others fear of “Big Brother” is not justified when you look at the reality of law enforcement professionalism and military professionalism (unless you are a lawbreaker or criminal yourself)”
NO, just a rebel..hell yeah
for the umpteenth time…LOL Sorry, good song. WOLVERINES 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30V5vnYHzk
By Rick Bentley’s standards of never ever allowing anyone in without fluency in English, this country would never have welcomed the vast majority of its Ellis Island era immigrants. But maybe that is exactly his point.
“You will not get this from the general public, or anyone on this blog who is heavily involved in fear and ethnic radicalism with a real desrie to undermine our legal system, promote anarchy, lawlessness and undermine DEMOCRACY as they put their own criminal element people into local and state government positions. This “illegal” growth will eventually corrupt the entire legal system in the same way it has been in these ethnic and religious class warring nations.”
Are you for real? Your suggestion that the Country would cease to exist if the illegals become legalized is the epitomy of fear-mongering.
I am the QUEEN of ONE more THOUGHT.
When I said this:
YES IT DOES HELP AS MUCH AS I WOULD HOPE!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!
I had in the back of my mind: trust them as far as you can throw them
Okay, I am going to bed and this does give me much comfort! Thank you Michael
Alanna,
oh shit, what did I miss? Going to bed,will find out tomorrow…and I thought I was going to sleep tight……Mackie, keep the coffee pot fresh, LOL
One has to remember with Michael that in the past he has declared the League of Women Voters to be a radical, subversive organization. It is useful to keep this in mind.
In truth Michael, the most immediate threat you face is a pack of marauding copy editors.
Rick, I can’t think of any Large immigrant group who has ever come to this country speaking proficient English except the English and the Irish, several hundred years later. The English was sort of the default, if you think about it. (and they all had accents, damn it)
Certainly the huddled masses romanticized by images of Ellis Island didn’t speak fluent English. ESOL has been around a long time. Plus, how are you going to get Mr. Bush’s test scores up to snuff by 2014?
Michael, I think you do a good service reminding us that there are those out there who would harm us, and harm us for many different reasons. Our past conflicts as well as the lesser known incidents bear this out. However, I don’t think we ever acquire blind faith towards the military.
As I look around the world I see countries where the military has not always served the people well. The best thing about a republic such as ours is that we have checks and balances. No one gets all the marbles all of the time.
That is one reason I am so leery of people who refuse to compromise. They are also usually the bullies, the would-be dictators, and those for whom it is always about power and control.
Mackie, ¿Qué piensa usted? Quiero oír lo que usted tiene que decir.
We could go on and on about individual circumstances about any group(s).
Lucky Ducky,
I posted the following post above. You must have missed it. Let me report it for your viewing pleasure and for your unique analysis that I find so entertaining.
“Lucky Duck,
Your style of analysis is interesting. Could you please try to analyze this interesting video and tell me if the BP agents were acting responsibly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRk3awO1Jq0
“
No Mackie, I saw it and I asked you what you thought.
You seem to ask a lot of questions but answer none. You didn’t answer mine in another thread, nor answer mine above in this thread and avoided answering Chris’s question in this thread too. You get what you give…
7 attendees, 5 panalists at the foreclosure seminar. What’s up with that? Perhaps Chris or Red Dawn will explain why people aren’t racing over to buy the foreclosures?
On another housing note, it looks like sales are up from a year ago but….the bad news is the houses are a lot cheaper and a lot less expensive that houses in other areas outside of Prince William County according to todays Journal Messenger. I am not so sure this is good news. Houses might sell real fast if you slapped a $50k for sale sign on them.
http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/news_archive/
Sales are up, Moon-howler, because speculators have swooped in to take advantage of our misfortune. For those who will actually live in the homes they buy, PWC is not a first option for the DC Metro area for obvious reasons. If you are the type of person who prefers a homogeneous white environment, you probably don’t move to the area period. All others know our reputation and would sooner live elsewhere even if they have to pay more.
The result of having speculators buy up all our homes is that these neighborhoods that were so eager to have less brown faces waiting for the school bus will gradually go from a glut of vacant and foreclosed upon homes to a vast array of rental units with occupants who are less well-off than they are, and less interested in taking care of the homes than they are, because everyone knows home-owners take better care of homes than renters.
Soon, they’ll be complaining all over again about their neighbors. It is likely there will be no recourse for F.A.I.R. to offer, however, because they will most likely be documented, and the only objection will be that their poor.
Hopefully, these neighborhoods will not go back to the days when they were filled with drugs and crime. I don’t know about the average HSM member, but drug-dealers are drug-dealers, whether they are brown skinned or not. The brown skinned neighbors they used to have may have grown corn and kept chickens, but they were hard working, law abiding family type folks.
WHWN,
I can’t generalize about my neighborhood. Some of my neighbors were not hard working, law abiding family types. How about ‘cops there once a week’ family types. They moved after selling off all the appliances and leaving all sorts of debris in the back yard. They were Latino and I have no idea what their status was.
That house sits vacant now but there is a rental unit near me where the family is just driving everyone insane. They cause disturbances, take up all the parking, and tell the neighors what they can do to themselves if anyone tries to talk to them. These folks are white. The black gentleman across the street told my husband they were trailer trash. These aren’t so law abiding from what I can tell.
There is another house down the street that has lots of folks living in it and they are motorcycle enthusiasts. There is always something roaring down the street. Lots of cars are there all the time. I haven’t gotten them figured out yet either. They, too, are white. They seem loud and law abidding.
All these folks are unconventional to the neighborhood. The neighborhood was never drug infested. Pretty middle class actually.
Except for the ones like the guy in Annandale who picked up someone else’s 1-year old baby and molested it on the spot. The story is at http://www.wtop.com/?sid=1448482&nid=25 You know, we have laws to track sex offenders and perverts among our own people, but we can’t track those who are here illegally. But hey i guess for the omelet of cheap wages you’re willing to break a few eggs.
Now, I don’t know yet that Juan Miguel Sejas Castellon is illegal or not. The fact that he is in Fairfax and has a Hispanic surname indicates he might be, the odds favor it in today’s Fairfax. But the big evidence that he is is that he is so twisted sexually, and walking the streets free. That is what makes me think he is in all likelihood illegal. The fact that he skated right through our social safety net.
Rick,
This is a heinous crime against a child. The perpetrator, if found guilty, should be locked up for the rest of his life. To me, it is irrelevant if he is an illegal immigrant or if the victim is an illegal immigrant. This behavior should never never happen with human beings. I don’t care where they are.
Sexual perversion and agression knows no color or race or immigration status. Those who commit these acts should be put away. I wouldn’t care if they were killed but the Supreme Court does so I won’t beat the drum there.
Rick, our home-grown child abusers won’t be on the list either until they’re caught. If I’m not mistaken, any abuser (legal resident/citizen or illegally here) will make the list once caught.
So, our home sales are up. They should be – the prices have nose-dived. Are sales outpacing foreclosures in PWC? Anyone know?
“To me, it is irrelevant if he is an illegal immigrant or if the victim is an illegal immigrant.”
If the guy were a citizen, we would have a record of his previous transgressions. As it is, we have nothing and his neighbors – or anyone who invites him to tag along to a party – cannot obtain a record of previous sex offenses.
Assuming he’s an illegal alien. Which, again, I invite anyone to bet against. A US citizen capable of such an act would have ended up in jail a long time ago.
That is a lofty conjecture. Using that logic, there would never be sex crimes if we removed all illegal aliens because all the citizens would have already been locked up. I don’t know where this leaves foreign nationals.
We don’t have records of people’s transgressions! If we did, if things are working they way the are supposed to work, the person would be in prison. First time offender means first time caught.
The only arguement I will even entertain on this subject might be that you don’t know who is living in flop houses from day to day. I do think that is a danger.
Moon-howler,
“7 attendees, 5 panalists at the foreclosure seminar. What’s up with that? Perhaps Chris or Red Dawn will explain why people aren’t racing over to buy the foreclosures”
The sales are up in PWC however,I would question how many of them are a short sale.
See link and reason why short sales are more attractive over foreclosures
http://activerain.com/blogsview/362813/Why-Buy-a-Short
“When buyers are looking for real estate, either a home or investment, and come across a short sale they should be aware of a few things. The price of a short sale will usually be at or just below market and higher then REO’s and Foreclosed homes. This is the case for two reasons. First short sales usually can sell higher then REO’s because of the condition of the home. Normally with short sales the owners live in the home because they still own it. With REO’s the home has foreclosed and the previous owners miss treat the home on the way out because they were being forced out. My usual disclaimer is this is not always the case and will depend on the individual home.”
Pardon me, I don’t like using the word flop house. I mean the single family homes in neighborhoods that are being used as motels and apartments. Some are handled very well. Others are a total nuisance. I just like knowing who is living around me. When home functions as a motel, then I don’t.
Lucky Duck,
Are you invoking Quid Pro Quo? Like some kind of Hannibal ‘The Cannibal’ Lecter in blue? Buried alive in a stone tomb…waiting…until it’s time to feed again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_MQnD_UnY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVlkZVAw8Gc&feature=related
Thank you Red Dawn,
What is your take on the first thread and the article? I do not see this as a good thing for PW Co like the MJM does. The only people I see it might be good for is realtors.
The only one really benefitwould be for the sellers, a bail out of sorts to save thier credit and avoid foreclosure. It helps the bank in a way that they will have a buyer but at a huge loss vs forclosing on the home.
This is why I question how MANYof the new sales are actual short sales? It would be nice to have a breakdown as it can be very misleading.
The only one who would really benefit would be the sellers…sorry
How come realtors wouldn’t benefit from rapid sales?
Sorry they would benefit as well. I am just looking at it more from the angle that it is a bail out for lack of a better term-Sure it is better than having the home foreclosed on and sitting vacant in the neighborhood BUT I sure would like to renegotiate my sales price…
Sorry Mackie…I hate to disappoint you but I don’t wear blue, try white. And you purpose is to shift, avoid and evade?
Why do you wear white?
Why do you evade and avoid?
Stop stalking me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMvNwP_n-mY
No way Mackie, I simply stopped answering your questions until you answer. I have posted the Virginia State Code Section for Stalking for your review and you can clearly read that no part of this code applies in this situation.
§ 18.2-60.3. Stalking; penalty.
A. Any person, except a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101, and acting in the performance of his official duties, and a registered private investigator, as defined in § 9.1-138, who is regulated in accordance with § 9.1-139 and acting in the course of his legitimate business, who on more than one occasion engages in conduct directed at another person with the intent to place, or when he knows or reasonably should know that the conduct places that other person in reasonable fear of death, criminal sexual assault, or bodily injury to that other person or to that other person’s family or household member is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.
B. A third or subsequent conviction occurring within five years of a conviction for an offense under this section or for a similar offense under the law of any other jurisdiction shall be a Class 6 felony.
C. A person may be convicted under this section irrespective of the jurisdiction or jurisdictions within the Commonwealth wherein the conduct described in subsection A occurred, if the person engaged in that conduct on at least one occasion in the jurisdiction where the person is tried. Evidence of any such conduct that occurred outside the Commonwealth may be admissible, if relevant, in any prosecution under this section provided that the prosecution is based upon conduct occurring within the Commonwealth
This is false.
Stop.
alanna and elena wouldnt know what democracy is. They apparently believe in third world vagrants and vandals who care nothing about our society. They also probably believe in sanctuary cities. You all need to pull your heads out of your self-righteous fat asses and get a clue. You all are feeding in the same pig trough as lucky duck and it shows, I guess that’s how they roll in hayseed or oops…haymarket where they probably dont have illegal alien one (unless they are picking the crops)
Elvis, I declare. It sounds for all the world like you are jealous.
Where a person lives is no reason for such derision. Where do you feel is the best place to live?
Please attack ideas, not people on this blog.
Elvis,
The reality is that you don’t care about illegal immigration.
You just hate working class immigrants from latin america.
Immigration law is just your tool. Your goal is to exile working class immigrants from latin america.
Come on Elvis, I don’t mind replacing Elena as your foil.
Anyone else here old enough to remember Chatty Cathy dolls in the 60s? Has anyone checked the back of elvis’s neck for a pull string because the messages are rote. Alanna, Elena, Haymarket, (insert ethnic and/or misogynist insult). Over and over.
The women who run this blog have been nothing but evenhanded.
I thought Elvis left weeks ago…at least he claimed he was done here…but I see he hasn’t been able to stay away…I wonder why? He must find something interesting here.
Twinad,
Well, someone did suggest he had a slight crush. Do you think that is the case?
MH,
Perhaps!
Alanna 23:13
Alanna, et al. I can’t always get to this post everyday to answer or provide a continuous debate, but I can assure you, if something needs to be said or challenged as truthful, I will return to it.
I have an answer to your question Alanna, referencing my comment below.
“You will not get this from the general public, or anyone on this blog who is heavily involved in fear and ethnic radicalism with a real desrie to undermine our legal system, promote anarchy, lawlessness and undermine DEMOCRACY as they put their own criminal element people into local and state government positions. This “illegal” growth will eventually corrupt the entire legal system in the same way it has been in these ethnic and religious class warring nations.
Are you for real? Your suggestion that the Country would cease to exist if the illegals become legalized is the epitomy of fear-mongering.”
My answer is YES, I am for real and NO your suggestion that I said “the Country would cease to exist if the illegals became legalized” is not true, but are your own words, which I take as a political character assasination and attempt to discredit my ethics, by putting words in my mouth that are actually yours.
I stand by the words I said, but I do not endorse your “analysis” or interpretation, or restatement of my words as truthful.
I am still trying to figure out what most of the people on this blog are fighting FOR, and what they are against. I believe some of you think you are fighting on the side of “good”, when in fact many of the actions taken and words indicate many of you are supporting lawlessness and in doing so ARE UNDERMINING democracy. Let me explain why.
I clearly know what I am fighting for and its very simple and time tested. I am fighting for a standard of ETHICS. I am fighting against crime and corruption. I am fighting against deceit and political manipulation of the truth for ethnic, gender, religious and racial group political and personal gain. I am fighting to maintain democracy and prevent others from undermining it and destroying it AS THEY RISE TO POLITICAL POWER INSIDE radical political parties using a variety of POWER and CORRUPTION models, propoganda and media tools to further their own political survival.
I am studying you and this blog and realizing that though some of what you do here is good, some is also very bad, and contributes to the problems I just identified above, whether you are doing it on purpose or not.
Every political animal has an almost fanatical driving personal agenda, most of which is fueled by anger, and often hatred. I am trying to determine what is driving each of you on this blog in order to determine if your actions are a threat to our society or a help to it.
In general the good things done here are an attempt as “Elena” says to “follow the golden rule”. That is a very good thing you do here, but sometimes it is applied in ignorance of evil and lawlessness, which you ignore at your own peril. The golden rule has one little flaw in it. If the people you apply it against are “good” people, then it has a good outcome. If the people you apply it to are “criminals” then they will destroy your society as they use your golden rule against you, because it strengthens them and allows them to operate without challenge or defeat by a force that is capable of defending good people from bad people.
Do you know how the world’s most heineous people rise to power? I do. They circumvent law, and corrupt everyone around them. Rather than make this a lengthy single post, I’ll tell you what you need to be fighting, instead of supporting in the next few posts.
It all starts with ETHICS.
Can anyone here tell me what is ethical about “illegal” immigration?
I will not argue agaist mis-guided answers or beliefs that hide “illegal”
immigration concepts, inside of “legal immigration” concepts, because “legal immigration” is ethical, and you may be surprised that I ALSO believe it is ethical and support it. “legal” immigration follows law, and that law was designed to protect the majority of the people from the minority of the people that would hurt them in hundreds of widely documented ways if they do not follow that law. That law IS ETHICAL when you consider ALL people’s needs the same, not just some small segment of a minority population that demands some other “right” to harm others by breaking that law.
“illegal” immigrants are not innocents, they have broken law that hurts millions of other people in widely documented ways. If you apply the golden rule, to non-innocent people, you will support and endorse the destruction and suffering of millions of others who are harmed by that “illegal” action and you have not correctly applied the golden rule to the people who deserve it most, the “innocent” ones, and good ones, who are affected by the lawbreakers. You are not doing unto them as you would do unto yourself, you are hurting them, by supporting lawlessness.
And here is another even more insidious problem you create when you support “illegal” immigration, corruption and crime, which I”ll discuss in the next post.
I llok at the history of the world a LOT, to gain insight into HOW small groups of individuals, inside political parties, bring down nations.
The political mechansim most often used, is “crime and corruption”. They break laws. They rise to power when those laws are not enforced, that prevent them from using “crime and corruption” to gain political power inside of “radical” political parties.
They FOOL the rest of you into voting for them, because you think they are good people, based on the WORDS they say, not on the dark and secret “DEEDS” they do, which you cannot see, or prove.
Do you know how they start on this road to ultimate power to overthrow a nation?
It only takes a FEW of them to pull it off. Do you know why you do not believe this can happen in the US? Because you have never seen how law enforcement stops it, before it gets too powerful, and so far none of them have been able to do it yet in the US. BUT they have done it in “Republics” and “Democracies” in other nations in history.
It starts with a simple but powerful concept that they LACK ETHICS, the ability to determine right from wrong, good from bad. They play politics, use deceit and propaganda to create a personality facade around them that makes all their friends “involved” in their ideological vision, think they are GOOD people who deserve your political vote or party vote as they rise to power.
The most heineous political dictators, kings and “socialist leaders” are almost always incredibly smart people, TOP leaders in their class in high school or college. BUT they lack ETHICS, are usually driven by anger, and LOVE lawlessness, corruption and crime’s ability to help them gain even more political power.
At first they simply corrupt businesses, cause business leaders to break the law, circumvent the law, and PAY them to provide “protection” from their political enemies, and law enforcement. They funnel this money into the “political party” they belong to, IN ALMOST EVERY CASE IN HISTORY ALIGNED ALONG RACIAL, GENDER, RELIGIOUS, OR ETHNIC group political lines of POWER.
When they get a large enough network, they take charge of local news media, putting out their own form of ideology for public consumption and recruiting. It only takes 3-5 of them as leaders of this party to keep these radical movements going for years, avoiding the police, avoiding detection of their “supporting” crimes that fund their political party efforts.
Many of these groups today, now use the internet, rather than the newsletter to support their rise to political power, while they fund this effort with crime and corruption.
At some point in their growth, they corrupt the local police and local government leaders, usually by payoff funded from other sources of crime and extortion. You can see the rise of this in your community, but you won’t know who the leaders doing the string pulling are, as they are secretly hidden behind many “layers” of personal friends, all committed to the party ideology. As they rise in power, at some point the most ruthless of them, take their political opponents out, first inside their own party, then in opposing parties, until only the most ruthless of them is left in central control of the radical party ideology and the direction it takes in society. Some of the most heineous of these individuals, pay others to kill and assassinate their political opponents, turning their opponents against each other, and selectively “ganging up on them politically”, until eliminated, then they change loyalties and attack the next most powerful opponent, with slander, character assassination, public lies, political alliances and ultimately death threats and execution, that rarely identifies them as the “instigator”.
IF conditions are right, they can create a local coup, putting their own radical leaders into local, statre and evenfederal government positions. As soon as they are in a position to appoint people into government positions, they bring in their own loyal “friends”, in large enough numbers to sway the political balance of power in those governments or agencies, to furthur their own political group radical position in society. If they can take advantage of pople who are fighting poverty, they will. If they can take advantage of other militant groups they will. If the society is already politically “unstable and divided”, the “people” will rise up with the leadership of these ruthless people in a radical party, and take over a nation. They will do this with a corrupted political system, a corrupted vote, and even the “popular” vote, if they can hide enough of their crime and corruption, behind political propoganda, that elevates them to the status of “good” in the eyes of the people. All along they have undermined “democracy, by gathering votes using party loyalty, crime and corruption, to convince HUGE voting blocks of Racial GROUPS, Religious GROUPS, Gender GROUPS, and ETHNIC GROUPS, to vote in HUGE voting blocks, based on their race, gender, religioun or ethnicity loyalties, rather than a loyalty to the “issues” of GOOD or BAD politcal policy or LAW. Everyone in the voting community thinks they are GOOD leaders as long as they support their racial, gender, religious, or ethnic political group agendas. Once in power at this level they use a “secret police” to further eliminate all political opponents in the party, even using execution, as a means to purge the ranks.
This is how nations are overthrown, and democracy is defeated, in socialist political ideology rooted in crime and corruption.
If you are not fighting this with me, you simply are supporting your own ethnic, racial, religious, or ethnic group anger, or supporting lawlessness from the position of a fool.
Leila: 23:24
You too are using words I did not say, that are your own, not mine to discredit my ethics.
I have very specifically stated that the LWV uses and supports politcal policy that is significantly only concerned with women’s issues, rather than men’s issues equally.
DEcause they refuse to condier all people equally, I define them as a political hate group, specifically hating men and men’s needs for equal treatment under the law. I can find legal position after legal position they support that harms men.
I know you do not like this view, which brings me to question your own sense of fairness and equality under the law, as “selective” and “exclusive”.
This is something Leila, I have never said to my knowledge, it is what YOU say. Is is not what I believe, it is what the evidence of their politcial positions support regarding my description of the LWV above. I do not agree with yours.
“One has to remember with Michael that in the past he has declared the League of Women Voters to be a radical, subversive organization. It is useful to keep this in mind.”
Michael. You have literally posted a book’s worth of words on this blog.
Michael, I did not put quote marks around my phrases. However nothing you have said contradicts my characterization. You define the League as a hate group and you say they are only concerned with women’s issues. Could you offer any evidence at all to support that accusation? Because if you actually go to their website and read about all their activities and their positions, it doesn’t in the least resemble a group that focuses on women’s issues. None of their projects specify women’s issues. You appear to be focused on a name. It’s almost comical how literal and myopic you are based on a historical name.
The organization came out of the suffrage movement in 1920 and it retained its original name. But apparently you never bothered to check what they actually do in American public life and what they have been known for for decades, which is things like voter registration drives and encouraging political participation.
Please cite from the *current* LWV evidence that supports your contention that they focus nearly exclusively on women’s issues as you say and are a hate group. Evidence. From the present. Not that I think for one minute that they were a hate group in 1920 either. If you do, then apparently you think it was wrong for women to mobilize to obtain the right to vote, which was something denied them by force of law.
Here’s a hint Michael. This is the list of what the League defines as its current priority issues:
Campaign Finance Reform
Civil Liberties
DC Voting Rights
Election Administration
Ethics and Lobbying Reform
Michael, you are aware that women were disenfranchised from 1608 until 1921 in this country? Knowing this irrefutable fact, how can you possibly define LWV as a hate group?
Why don’t we just say that the Declaration of Independence is a hate document since it say ‘all men are created equal?’ That certainly is identifying by gender.
I honestly just believe that you are pissed off because white men no longer own all the marbles. I can’t think of another reason for your attitude.
hello
Rick,
There should be a mechanism to catch somebody who attempts to use an alias regardless of status.