July 25 9500liberty Screening w/ Special Guests
July 25th, 2008
Update July 26th: The special guests were Supervisor Wally Covington and Supervisor Marty Nohe. Also in attendance were Kris Nohe, Marty Nohe’s Senior Aide Tracy Gordon, and Supervisor John Stirrup aide Karen Ulrich.
Update July 25th: Getting word that we will have special guests from the county government attending tonight’s screening. I look forward to seeing everybody there!
Friday, July 25th at 7:30pm
Trinity Episcopal Church
9325 West Street
Manassas, VA 20110
Categories: General
Elena’s quote went by fast but it is so darn true!
If you’ve seen this movie, you simply can’t talk local politics with someone who hasn’t seen it. My boyfriend and I have been going in circles for a week because he can’t understand (and I can’t explain very well) why this footage proves Corey Stewart is a puffy-faced L-I-A-R. I suppose that’s the first step toward fixing all that is wrong with this county. Facing facts. That’s why b.f. is coming with me Friday and I’ll be sitting next to him to make sure he absorbs every nuance.
It looks like some more people just might get caught telling more lies, now doesn’t it?
I bet this special screening might even blow holes in that article on the FAIR website.
I suspect that we might get to see Chief Deane shed those devil horns planted there by the Order of the Red Circle and turn into a halo once the truth comes out.
From talking to people around town, I understand that the attempt to character assassinate Chief Deane was the straw that broke the camel’s back. That’s when folks decided they wanted nothing to do with the Order of the Red Circle. Chief Deane is a well respected community leader and has been for many years.
NotGregLetiecq,
I feel your pain. My husband is the same way. He doesn’t see what has gone on behind the scenes and the dirty influence! He hasn’t taken the time learn. He thinks he is all over local news because he reads the newspapers. I bet you and I could both tell them a thing or 2!
I just like anything that comes from this documentary team because it gets a broader dialog going. Yea, Trinity Episcopal for providing a venue for the continuing dialog. The parish hall is big with two large screens for viewing.
Here’s another opportunity. Prince William Study Circles on Immigration’s next online webinar to plan this Fall’s Prince William Study Circles on immigration will be Tuesday, July 22, from 6:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. To sign up, complete the form at http://www.cvdnva.org. A wide variety of viewpoints is encouraged. Let your voice be heard.
MH,
You are right the Chief Deane “charge” was the straw that broke this camel’s back. I spoke to a woman yesterday in Giant. She too said that was the limit for her and withdrew her name from membership. She says still getting the email alert. I’ve talked to several others who said the same. I’ve even had a few people call me ask me why I left too.
Chief Deane has serve our community three times the years most of those wishing to discredit him. UFB!
Need to clarify. Those that have not even LIVED in the county a third of the years Chief Deane has served.
How about a video on the increase in MS13/SUR13 gang taggings in the Manassas/PWC area instead of useless garbage that does absolutely nothing to fix anything?
Why don’t you do it? You could start with the Flat Branch bridge on Lomond Dr.
Making youtube videos is not my calling. I thought Elena was about helping out the community? This is just finger pointing garbage we see day in and day out on the idiot tube.
Mando,
I hear ya about the youtube videos. I’ve been called “digitally challenged”. Sounds like a project for the HSM Crime Prevention Team. Just a thought.
Yes let the Order of The Red Circle make that video. They could have 2 teams: one to spraypaint the graffiti, and one to film it after it dries.
It’s worked in other areas with Latino immigrants. When fear is your only weapon, factual evidence is of no import.
Facilitating understanding about a point of confusion IS doing something positive for the community. Film is not always, but can be, a very powerful method to help get this done.
NGL: That’s a pretty ridiculous statement to make – it is obvious Latino gangs are responsible for that graffiti. That’s stooping pretty low to imply that anyone would be intentionally making graffiti to make it look like Latinos are doing it.
Having worked in a school with the highest number of immigrants in Fairfax County, I know all too well the poison of gangs to children and their community. However, law enforcement prefer to build positive alliances with the immigrant community so that they can catch the gang criminals. As Chief Deane pointed out, early in the resolution process, by making police officer into ICE officers, you put at risk that relationship.
An observer, its pretty ridiculous to say it is obvious that Latino gangs are responsible for the graffiti at flatbranch. No one knows who did it. I guess the term ‘wannabe’ escapes you? Have you ever worked with teens? You would understand immediately why I don’t hang this one on anyone.
As for useless garbage, Mando, have you seen any of the films? Why do you call them useless garbage? I think it is important for residents of Prince William County to understand the process by which they have achieved national exposure. Many people do not because there were attempts to obfuscate the facts. Example: Does anyone remember a public hearing? There wasn’t one. Big oversight.
Moon=howler,
Good point about the wannabe. Does anyone know if you have to be a Latino to join a gang? I would just assume you have to bad, real bad, worse than Michael Jackson.
kidding aside I do want to know
Red Dawn,
According to the University of Nevada Outpost…
“Aside from joining white supremacist groups, white gang members, which account for about 18 percent of Reno gang members, are often assimilated into black and Latino gangs.”
Thanks DG. I guess we are all suspect
Now where is that chunky monkey Evangelical Emma? I hear she has some topics for discussion for us at our next economy party. Does that mean she will be joining us to lead the discussion?
Moon-howler – fine, but it is beyond ridiculous to go about implying that HSM members are creating that graffiti, which is what the NGL did.
Alanna, Is this film different from the one that was held at Casablanca?
Maureen
Sorry to all HSM members for joking that they might be using tactics that other anti-immigrant groups. I know they have their own tactics. But Moon-howler is right, graffiti is not pretty but it’s not a reason to go into hysterics either. It’s not like the American people are dumb enough to take drastic action because of insufficient evidence. No, that never happened.
Mando, why do you so object to gaining information about a subject you love to pop off about from a standpoint of ignorance. This is not a insult, just the truth. This movie is thorough, factual, and irrefutable since every single person in it, including your beloved Greg and Corey Show, is saying the exact same thing. Go to the screening and see what happens when you argue this issue WITH some of the facts at your disposal as opposed to the opposite.
Maureen,
It will be somewhat different, not sure in what way, but there were some changes.
It will be different thanks to great feedback we got from the July 9th and July 10th screenings. About 75 percent will be stuff you would have seen if you were there last week.
Also, there will be some added chapters, one of which will be of particular interest to people on this blog (i.e. a chapter about this blog). Also a new chapter will touch upon the Chief Deane controversy re. his Hi Mart visit.
Adding subtitles for parts that people said were hard to hear.
How about this idea:
WORK SMART, NOT HARD… but that would involve HEART ( I guess that is the difference)
Look at the common denominator in ALL of these arguments!!!!!!!!!
AMNESTY ( no questions -a pardon) is NOT a COMPROMISE( agreement), if we ALL work together…WOW…. that would be a compromise….LOL
Eric,
I am so bummed I can’t make it! I want to see the new stuff. Any additional showings after August 1st?
Hi DiversityGal. Yes, we hope to show it again in August as the feature length documentary begins to take shape. We are still conducting interviews for the feature version, including some key players I’m excited about talking to. Scenes from the feature film will gradually replace the “special screening” scenes we put together specifically to clear up confusion about the changes made to the county’s immigration policy on April 29, 2008.
Eric,
Are you seeking national distribution? I sure hope so. You have something MAJOR to contribute to the national discussion on this issue. America should see it in theaters:)
Moon-howler, MS-13 is very prevalent in that area of the county. Everyone needs to take these tagging seriously. I’ve spoken to a few of the gang taskforce officers and they even tell you to take them seriously. Also if you all will remember, C.J. Angelos was murdered by MS-13 gang members a couple of years ago. And guess what? They were here illegally.
Many of the younger kids are wannabe’s also. They do a lot of the graffiti. Should the graffiti stay? No, of course not, it is trashy looking. The fact that younger teens look up to this crap is also disturbing.
On the other hand, over-reaction and giving any punks this much credence is feeding right in to the attention seeking behaviors we are try extinquish. I have been attending county and federal gang task force workshops for a number of years. If all grafitti is reported and cleaned up immediately without lots of ooohing and awwwwhing, all the better.
The county needs a plan to remove the graffiti immediately when it is on private property. When they start taking it seriously, and more importantly, consistently, then we will all be better off. What happens if people can’t afford to have the graffiti removed? What is the back up plan? What happens to empty houses? What will the county do?
Diversity Girl,
I hope you take your laptop with you. I will miss your posts, otherwise.
Moon-howler,
Aww, shucks! Though I do not own a laptop, I think three people amongst the fam and friends are taking theirs on the vacation. I’m so addicted to this blog, I don’t think I’ll be able to stay away:)
We look forward to hearing from you. And have a fabulous trip. You could do a travelog for us so we can pretend we are on vacation.
Have a wonderful relaxing peaceful fun trip Diversity Gal!
I head out on Friday morning, so there is still much more working and blogging to do this week:)
Maureen Wood of HSM, thanks for being brave enough to post with your own name attached. I do admire you for that. And most of your posts here are respectful and honest. So I’m curious about what you thought of the 9500 Liberty movie last week … other than the opening which you convincingly argued did not do justice to Help Save Manassas’ history.
Put the opening aside for a moment… because as soon as HSM was out of the picture (15 minutes in) it was pretty much straight down the middle, would you not agree?
I mean, you saw it, right? Doesn’t it basically prove that Chairman Stewart has been selling you and your Help Save Manassas brethren a steaming load of bull ever since April 29? How do you feel about that?
I mean, if Corey Stewart thinks you’re so easily deceived (and so unlikely to fact check), what’s to stop him from lying to you again in the future? Wouldn’t you prefer … if you could have your druthers about what sort of politician to have in your pocket … to have a guy who could actually do your bidding, rather than fail to do so and then lie to you about it?
I’m not trying to be critical of you, by the way. But I’m just wondering if the revelations in the film angered you at all. Because if all of this Immigration Resolution fever is only about the “rule of law,” and has nothing to do with ridding your neighborhoods of undesirables with darker complexions, you must be pretty upset now that you know the LAW you worked so hard to implement was essentially NEUTERED over Corey Stewart’s (and I quote) “dead body.”
whwn,
While you are being praise-person to Ms. Wood I am wondering how she looks at herself in the mirror after writing that report for FAIR. The report sounded like a small legion marched down to where Chief Deane was meeting with Pancho Villa and stood the chief down. Because of the heroic efforts of HSM the chief tucked his tail between his legs and went back to his office like a good little chief.
As I recall, 2-3 people showed up at that meeting where Chief Deane spoke to the residents of PW Co. and explained what the Resolution did and did not do (at the time) as he was directed to do by the BOCS. Business as usual.
Watch out for the wind created from the SSSSSSPPPPPIIIIINNNNNNNNN!!!!!
Notes From the Field
Virginia Activists Make Sure Local Officials Carry Out Enforcement Policies
The goal of FAIR’s national field program is to help committed citizens around the country be effective activists for immigration reform. Sharing strategies that have been successful in one place can help activists elsewhere be more effective advocates for immigration reform.
In Northern Virginia, FAIR worked closely with activists from the Help Save Manassas group in Prince William County in 2007 to institute local immigration enforcement policies. Getting local enforcement ordinances adopted was only the first hurdle.
In 2008, Help Save Manassas is making sure that these policies are carried out, reports Maureen Wood, the group’s legislative director. When Prince William County Police Chief Charlie Dean — an opponent of local enforcement policies — joined with the Mexican consul general to hold a community meeting with local illegal aliens on March 27, immigration reform activists turned out as well.
Knowing that activists who helped bring about Prince William’s enforcement ordinance were making sure that the will of the people is being implemented, Chief Dean warned illegal residents that he and his department will act when they have reason to believe someone they encounter is in the country illegally.
It is said that 90 percent of life is just showing up. In Prince William County, local activists continue to show up and make a real difference.
I just read the FAIR piece you are referring to. What spin are you talking about? I was at that meeting to observe. I made a report to FAIR and on BVBL about how well Chief Deane handled himself. I also stood up for Chief Deane. Ask Chris about the conversations we had about Chief Deane. She can tell you I defended him.
I choose to try and preserve the sovereignty of the United States and for that I will never apologize to anyone. It is very easy for me to look at myself in the mirror for I have done nothing wrong. I don’t ever recall saying nasty things about anyone on this blog, but once again, someone who disagrees with YOUR point of view is demonized. I suggest you read the article again. Most of it is about PWC in general, not Chief Deane.
And when you make comments like you just did, use your real name. To everyone else, I apologize for the long post.
1. Maureen Wood said on 27 Mar 2008 at 11:42 pm:
I attended the meeting tonight and I thought Chief Deane did a very good job. When I have some more time I will update. Going to bed.
1. Maureen Wood said on 29 Mar 2008 at 7:50 pm:
Lafayette- thought I already posted this, I must be getting old.
I attended the meeting last night. I have some concerns about the Chief having a meeting with the Mexican Consul, but Chief Deane was impressive and above board last night. He did not placate the crowd there. He was honest and told them like it was.
The question of the drunken driving road block came up and Deane told the crowd that if they are pulled over in this, and they don’t have a license, don’t speak English or they have questionable documents they WILL be asked their legal status.
The crowd tried many times to corner Chief Deane into promising them something and he wouldn’t have any of it. He told them that there might even be certain circumstances that the police would question their legal status even when they are witnesses to a crime. That went over well with the crowd. (sarcasm)
The Mexican Consul started the meeting off in Spanish when there were clearly many non-Hispanic’s in the group. The thing that disturbed me about this was, it was NEVER translated into English, so I have to wonder what he said to the crowd. This happened several times during the meeting.
As for Chief Deane being against the resolutions implementation, he has NO option but to enforce it. He might not be happy about it but after hearing him speak last night, I do believe he WILL and that he will honestly put forth a concerted effort to enforce the “Rule of Law” resolution.
I too have questions about Chief Deane’s dealings with the Mexican government but I am willing to reserve judgment until we get those answers.
1. Dolph said on 29 Mar 2008 at 8:45 pm:
Maureen,
Thank you for your report. It is good to hear an unbiased opinion from someone who was really there. There has just been enough speculation.
Again, thank you for taking your time to go across county and to report back.
I would be proud to look in the mirror every day if I was Maureen. She displays tireless devotion to the cause of improving our community, protecting the sovereignty of our great nation, making our community safer, protecting American workers and legal residents, and helping to lessen the load of taxes we have to pay for the social services of illegal aliens.
Maureen, I am honored to know you and I truly appreciate all of your efforts!
Then there’s Cat Scratch Fever a/k/a Moon Howler a/k/a Dolph, who defames, insults, and gossips about people who disagree with her, while hiding behind several monikers. So,_________ how do you look in the mirror every day?
Note: I removed an identifying name for an individual who to my knowledge has not publicly been identified. I have no desire in ‘outing’ anybody, and I’m not in the business of validating these accusations, so it’s probably best to avoid this behavior.
Maureen,
I like the post from bvbl. The “Notes from the Field” on FAIR just doesn’t leave a person with the same perception. Perception is reality!
Yes, YOU did defend him. Unfortunately, there are SOME that just want to rag on the Chief Deane, our schools, and anything else they don’t like. It goes back to the lack of respect SOME have for county officials and elected officials.
Maureen,
I would’ve posted some more of your comments defending Chief Deane. However, there was a problem. It seems as though all of the email exchanges of the weekend leading up to once again bashing Chief Deane, because he didn’t clear meetings with some in the community. However, my email account has been hacked into and ALL of those emails have been deleted. Hmm. I wonder of some self-proclaimed computer wiz has hacked in my email. I don’t know for sure, but it’s being investigated. Wow, there’s only a handful of people that was involved in those exchanges, and oddly enough there’ve many emails that have been deleted too. Would you mind sending me a copy of those exchanges before I left HSM?
Now Cat Scratch Fever a/k/a Moon Howler a/k/a Dolph which one of those skanky tramps do you think slept with THE OTHER last??? Perhaps that is the is the source of their pain?
Cat Scratch, I am trying to get Maureen to answer a question honestly, something she usually does, and I don’t see the harm in saying so. If I only said things I didn’t like about what she thinks or says, I couldn’t very well expect to get an answer could I?
Maureen, how about my answer? I did ask nicely, didn’t I?
WhyHereWhyNow, To be honest it was hard to hear and follow the film. I have had questions about the “new” resolution since it was done. I have not talked to Corey about it to see what he has to say and I truely believe he thinks he did the right thing.
Maureen
Maureen, why don’t you just quit HSM and get out from the shadows of its negative reputation?
Interesting. Does everyone feel better now. Think what you want. It matters not to me. I have no idea what you wrote about on bvbl. I sure don’t like the spin on the FAIR article. I don’t think HSM is keeping Chief Deane on a leash as the article would have us believe. Ms. Wood, if you name is on the article, you are who owns it, regardless of making nice on bvbl. 2 articles, same topic, different message.
Girls, you need to stop allowing yourselves to used and start thinking for yourselves.
So you told my first name. BFD. I will get over that much quicker than you will get over what you are doing. I also recognize a few signs.
You might want to think about why this site exists.
Anon-100,
I don’t believe Stewart wanted to vote for it. In Stewart’s mind, the only thing worse than voting for it was voting against it, if that makes sense. He could be “in” on another unanimous vote or the alternative which was to be on the losing side 6-2 with John Stirrup. It does seem to be a very political maneuver especially considering that he told Supervisor Principi that he(Stewart) would only vote for it if Principi voted against it. The only purpose for him to ask this would be so that he could create a better spin.
To Elena, WhyHereWhyNow, and others . . .
If I did not have other commitments this evening I would certainly have come to the event tonite. But in lieu of my absence, I would be grateful if you could pass on my regards to all in attendance. And I do mean ALL.
As someone who was thoroughly and quite effectively active in the “anti-illegal immigration” movement, I completely understand the thinking of folks like Corey Stewart, Greg Letiecq, et al. While I don’t know what’s in their minds and hearts, I don’t believe hatred is their motivation. At best I believe they are caught up (as I was) in the seductive maelstrom of narrow “rule of law” thinking which advances the lie that immigration causes crime. It doesn’t. Destructive values within a person, and their rejection of creative and constructive values, is at the root of crime, not where they are from nor what their statutorily defined residency status is.
Until there is full acknowledgement of the humanity of immigrating people (regardless of their “status”), as opposed to the vile “send them back with love” mentality as promoted by Greg Letiecq, and if all that continues to be done is objectifying immigrating people by making them mere pawns of policy, then our own humanity will continue to be diminished. And that, in the end, is what actually destroys a community.
Jesus once taught a lesson about “who is our neighbor”. He was teaching a gathering of fellow Jews, and taught them that Samaritans — who were utterly despised by Jews — were their neighbors (that, by the way, was the actual lesson of the “Good Samaritan” story). Jesus showed godly kindness and mercy to a Roman centurion. Let us not forget that Romans had invaded the Jewish homeland and had it under their absolute and tyrannical control. And we all certainly remember Jesus’ teaching that we should all “love our enemies”. So for the likes of Greg Letiecq and those who share his perspective (which may or may not include Corey Stewart), let them be reminded that the person we despise, the person we might see as an “invader”, and the person we may characterize as our “enemy” (for whatever reason), is our neighbor.
At that, let any “policy” be first and foremost guided by compassion, mercy, hospitality, and equity. Anything else is unworthy of our common humanity.
Everyone enjoy the event tonite.
Be well.
Will the special guests from the county government be making any speeches or taking questions?
Generally it is an informal group and you can just go up to them and talk one on one. I hope this helps.
I can’t wait to see who shows up, with my own two eyes!
You all enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Fudv9bT3I
I missed the screening, and I missed seeing you all in person. However, the beach is quite lovely, and I am pleased to be taking a break. I hope you all will update me here on how things went. I am anxious to hear about it.
Later dudes!
DiversityGal,
I hope you have good weather. Which beach? We miss you.
What? No report? Who were the mystery guests?
Robb, those are some beautiful words. I think you have a calling.
Robb Pearson said:
So who was there? Who was there? That’s not fair. Don’t keep us home bodies in suspense!
I figured here is as good a place as any to post this . . .
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20080725/Immigrant.Killing.Students/
There are those who decry the presence of “illegal aliens” because they “import crime”. Well we have our own wonderful home-grown crime to deal with as well. This time three white American teens, not very far from where I live actually, beat a Mexican teen to death this week simply because he was Mexican. And yes, the teen was here “illegally”, though came here when he was 12, and he was often derided and scolded and told to go back where he came from.
If you think the vile and far too often racially-charged “anti-illegal immigration” movement doesn’t eventually produce evil effects (i.e., cultivating and generating intolerance), and that it’s merely about “rule of law”, think again as you consider this horrific incident.
An addendum to my previous comment . . .
CORRECTION: The attack occurred two weeks ago, not this past week.
Last year, some may recall, four teens in Newark, NJ were killed by a man who was in the country illegally. The media was all over it, and even Tom Tancredo flew in from Colorado to pontificate on the “evils” of “illegal immigration”. It drew massive national attention and simply fueled the already insane fervor pervading the “anti-illegal immigration” movement.
I wonder though, will this Mexican teen who was viciously murdered be equally mourned, will his murder by three American whites be loudly protested with equal indignation, and will his murder become a righteous anecdote demonstrating the evils produced by the “anti-illegal immigration” movement?
Thank you for posting this story, no matter how tragic, Rod. This is exactly the kind of violence we want to avoid. When we teach our children to hate, they will indeed hate.
I mean Robb! Dammit!
Robb,
Thanks for posting this article. This is a horrible story. I hope these three teens get the maximum punishment allowed by law. No one wants to see such a crime committed in their community. However, there will be those that will say “if they weren’t here illegally they wouldn’t be a victim”. This train of thought is simply unacceptable in my mind. A persons status irrelevant in a case such as murder.
k-
Are you still in suspense?
That excuse has already been given by the dark hearts on the dark side.
Censored,
I’m NOT the least bit surprised.
It was nice to see you again last night.
Marie,
It was very nice meeting and talking to you. I’m still thinking of our conversation.
So who came last night?
Chris, 26. July 2008, 9:11
k-
Are you still in suspense?
YES!!!!!!!!
Oh wait. Just read another thread. Wally Covington and Marty Nohe…and Sharon Pandak? Can anyone confirm?
If Wally was there, I am very glad. He’s my Sup. and I’ve been at enough meetings that I think he might have heard me
Robb,
Thanks for posting that article. The silence of the media on this crime is deafening.
Check out this video of 2 Latinos who’s truck tipped onto its side. For whatever reason, they walked away and some vigilantes decided to hunt them down and illegally assault them. The amazing thing is they actually videotaped themselves and don’t think they did anything wrong. These Latinos had every right to resist illegal assault with force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrWqnMYifw4
Supervisor Covington and Supervisor Nohe were there. Nohe spoke during the Q/A and joked around and then praised the new policy and Chief Deane. Both stayed for a long time to mingle. Covington talked openly with people during the mingle but declined to speak during Q/A. He looks good with stubble! Is there a rule about more than two Supervisors hanging out? It would have been great to see more of them. Film leaves me wanting to learn more about Caddigan and May.
The guy who owns Dixie Bones BBQ was there. Carlos Castro of Todos Supermarket (he was also in the film) briefly. Gregg Reynolds who was in the film briefly. Chris Panelle (sp?) was there and spoke during Q/A. I counted 5 Help Save Manassas members who are still with the program. They took notes the whole time. Annabel invited Maureen to speak during Q/A but she declined. Alanna was there but not Elena.
They added new footage about the attack on Chief Deane that gave the film an emotional thread it didn’t have last time. Big improvement. Made the April 29 showdown even more dramatic! Came away loving and respecting Chief Deane even more than before. Q/A was about where do we go from here. How do we get the message out that the law is changed and we don’t deserve to be the villains in Washintonian Magazine, or at least should get some credit for reversing course after admitting a mistake.
“He looks good with stubble!” LMAO! I don’t think I have ever seen Wally Covington with stubble. I think he shaves before BOCS meetings.
Maybe he was trying to go incognito
Thanks for the great synopsis, NGL! Sorry to have missed the fun but there is only so much people like me can get done
“How do we get the message out that the law is changed and we don’t deserve to be the villains in Washintonian Magazine, or at least should get some credit for reversing course after admitting a mistake.”
We get rid of the rest of the resolution and admit it’s useless. Then POOF! The whole stupid thing is gone and we can settle down to solving the real neighborhood and intercultural issues.
Sorry I missed the screening. I’m dying to see it. Please post more clips, 9500liberty.
NGL,
We never admitted to making a mistake with the modifications. Everything was decided on a financial basis. I think we do need to apologize to the Hispanic and immigrant communities and admit that we made a mistake before we can move onto anything else.
This video is what FAIR, GregL, DueCaster, et.al. are working to make a reality. Check out the illegal detention and violation of 4th amendment rights that took place against a Latino in this video. This is a classic example of police abuse under the color of the the law.
Checkpoints like these are starting to pop up all over the country.
If you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will jump right out.
If you put him in a pot of cool water and then slowly raise the temperature until it boils, he will sit there and boil to death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrFRObbSDDo
How about just acting normally and responsibily and asking Chief to continue his community outreach program. It would be nice if he could do his job without being accused of treason.
If the Latino community sees they are being treated fairly, that counts for more than some empty government apology which is never going to happen anyway.
This is actually a pretty simple concept. Smile at people you see out in public. That sends a much better message than a government apology. It sounds trite but it works.
The order of the red circle will continue to propagate lies about crime rate, local job market, the local housing market, and soon they will start cooking the school books about the great savings from all the ESOL students ‘being on the run.’ We just have to counter with correct, verifiable information.
An outright apology might not do too much good but they can say something like they didn’t expect the negative social ramifications the policy has had and that the results weren’t what they intended.
More Movies!
Unity in the Community
in collaboration with
George Mason University
Manassas Campus
University Life
http://www.unityitc.org/
703-368-5225
presents
Crossing the Line
An Immigration Film Series
at the
George Mason University
Manassas Campus, Verizon Auditorium
Sat, Aug. 2, 7:30 p.m. Da Nadie — Prepare for the journey as an unknown, a nothing, no one. Prepare to leave everything behind and travel alone. Prepare to face the same intimidation when you cross into the United States–if you live through it.
Sun, Aug. 3, 2:30 p.m. Letters From the Other Side — A much-needed examination of the collateral damage of illegal immigration, sensitive. effective and emotionally potent. John Anderson, Variety
Sat, Aug. 9, 7:30 p.m. Golden Venture — A shipload of immigrants runs aground creating a media circus and symbol of a growing national concern over undocumented immigration.
Sun, Aug. 10, 2:30 p.m. Ramchand Pakistani — A true story of the accidental crossing of the Pakistan-Indian border, two members of a Pakistani Hindu family belonging to the ‘untouchable’ (Dalit) caste, and the extraordinary consequences of this unintended action on the lives of a woman, a man, and their son.
Sat, Aug. 16, 7:30 p.m. Alienated: Undocumented Immigrant Youth –
Undocumented immigrant youth face the challenges of life after high school without options for legalized work or college.
and
Beyond the Border — Latinos seeking a better life have migrated to Kentucky, for low-paying jobs in the tobacco, manufacturing and horse racing industries. As Latino communities swell, so does the xenophobia and discrimination they face.
Sun, Aug. 17, 2:30 p.m. Under the Same Moon — The reunion of 9-year-old Carlitos and his mother, Rosario, who works as an illegal domestic in Los Angeles.
Sat, Aug. 23, 7:30 p.m. Farmingville — The shocking hate-based attempted murders of two Mexican day laborers catapult a small Long Island town into national headlines,
Sun, Aug. 24, 2:30 p.m. To Be Announced
Following the films, join discussions facilitated by students from George Mason’s Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution.
“Is there a rule about more than two Supervisors hanging out”
It only applies if they are meeting to discuss PWC business.
I truly do not understand why Nohe hangs around with Wally. I saw them having dinner at Ruby Tuesday’s in County Center one evening after a BOCS meeting. Mr. Nohe is a truly good-hearted man. Wally is a vengeful little prick.
Fontbonne, what makes you say that about Wally? Are you in his district? I am and I don’t think I would apply that term to him.
Fontbonne,
Haha. Please elaborate Fontbonne. We should know who our supervisors really are as opposed to the public face all public officials carefully craft.
Wally has a pretty good poker face. He is very careful what he says as far as I can see. Our Chair could learn a good lesson or two in this area.
I’ve railed on Wally several times because of overdevelopment in our area. And of course, I’ve ralied on the whole BOCS about the resolution.
They were only 2 supervisors there. Mr. Nohe and Mr. Covington. They were in a gathering open to the public.
Fontbonne, those are rather strong words, although probably not as unflattering as you would have us believe. I don’t believe I would apply them to Mr. Covington either.
There are certain times that being a vengeful little prick just seems like the order of the day.
Don’t get me wrong…there are OTHER people I might apply those words to. But I probably wouldn’t say them. I don’t have to because Font did.
I thought the dialog among the viewers after the screening was healthy, I thought.
As Annabel explained, people would share their views with the filmmakers but wouldn’t communicate with each other. Watching the film gives you a chance to hear all those voices and views, and prompts you, afterward to speak up.
I liked hearing Maj. Gaskill’s personal insights about Chief Deane’s integrity.
I wish someone who is a member of HSM had spoken, but I understand if they didn’t. While the parish hall was a safe, neutral place, the presence of reporters and cameras may have intimidated some.
I can’t wait to see what comes out of the dialogs at Unity’s film series at GMU in August, and the pilot study circles in the fall. Shut off the cameras, add a facilitator and I think the dialog would be a good experience.
I think Nancy was correct also — no matter how many invitations, how can Latinos feel safe to participate when they still have the resolution’s knife-in-the-back sticking in them?
Why the personal attack on Wally Covington, or for that matter, anyone involved in this? Eric & Annabel’s whole point is, don’t attack people, walk in their shoes, listen to what they have to say, see things from their viewpoint.
I don’t believe ‘recind the resolution’ is a viable ‘battle cry’ now. The resolution was neutered. That’s as good as it is going to get. Let’s not beat a dead horse. MWB could do a good turn now by helping to reassure the Latino community rather than incite their fears. I sincerely hope that is happening.
All of this needs to move beyond the ‘football game’ mentality into positive dialogue. We score /you score is just not productive. The only people who are going to be considered credible are going to be those who reject extremism and who embrace compromise.
The healing begins with people just using common courtesy and good manners.
Hey Alanna,
We are the students from Georgetown that talked to you briefly last night. We couldn’t find an email address for you, so we decided to post a comment. Please send us an email or give us a call at your earliest convenience regarding what we discussed. Thanks!
Footbone, you should be thankful that Supervisor Covington made the right choice on April 29. The Anti-Immigrant Lobby and the Republican State Party gave him a lot of reasons not to. And, when he is representing his district, he speaks on this issue responsibly and with clarity.
Why I want the rest of the Resolution Gone http://luxuriouschoices.blogspot.com/2008/07/todays-testimony-to-bocs.html
“This morning, I emailed you a copy of an article from the July edition of Washingtonian Magazine. On the bottom right-hand corner, the PWC BOCS was listed as a “villain” because of its immigration resolution.
Out in Utah, the United Way has published an article on us as an example of what NOT to do.
And the Southern Poverty Law Center, no matter what you might think of them, has declared the authors of our policy a hate group.
In 2007, thousands of residents gathered in and in front of your chambers to protest passage of the immigration resolution. They were ignored. But you listened to lobbyists and residents from outside the county emailing to inflict their agendas on us.
Currently, the provisions of the resolution offer the county police the same rights and responsibilities they had pre-resolution. What a waste of time and money to get what we already had through 287g.
I am still concerned that the other provisions remain on the books: denial of certain services to the elderly, sick and disabled. I have been told that the eight services denied illegal immigrants have not saved the county any significant money. I have heard there are quote, “only a few” elderly people being denied meals on wheels. I have heard that there are quote, “only a few” addicts not being treated. And there are only quote, “a few” people being denied assistance with home repairs.
These people do not deserve to be singled out and denied necessary services. When we neglect our elderly and sick, we put our own county in jeopardy. Not only do we propagate addiction, we continue to neglect neighborhoods already being complained about. And we appear, as the Washingtonian says, villains.
I am asking you to remove these useless, mean spirited policies from the books. This is not the right way to stop illegal immigration. We don’t need to resort to actions like these to have better communities.”
Beautiful Katherine! You and Robb should go on tour making public speeches. I agree with everything, but why not leave in the home repairs thing? Just a quibble. If I had written this letter I’d have left it out as a complaint because on the surface it seems reasonable. I could be wrong because I have not taken much interest in the public services aspect of the Immigration Resolution. I felt they had essentially neutered that in 2007 … and by neutered I mean that the Oct. 16 resolution was not going to harm the larger community and break our bank account where as the Duecaster Disaster version would have been very costly.
Maureen Wood: now that you’ve seen it twice, are you in a better to answer my previous question (can’t remember which thread). I was just asking how you feel about The GregNCorey Show lying to you about the tougher stronger crackdown resolution passed unanimously on April 29? In this movie, Corey’s own words belie the lie. How do you defend that? And doesn’t it make you mad? Because who else do you think he wanted to deceive if not Help Save Manassas?
If you could have your druthers about what sort of politician to have in your pocket, wouldn’t you prefer one who will tell you the truth, win or lose? Rather than to lose and then lie to you about it?
I don’t think that the resolution will be rescinded immediately, but I think it could be – if the university study group presents data which proves it’s in our best interest socially, financially, legally to do so. The results of that study could give the BOCS a reason to change course. For now, it’s been weakened at least.
I think the people present last night were your average concerned middle class, middle-of-the road voters. Actually, that type of voter probably represents the majority of PWC residents. It would be nice to bring the two polar opposites to the table as well – HSM which fomented the brouhaha in our community and MWB many of whose members were on the receiving end of the resolution’s enforcement. I was disappointed that the HSM members left without contributing to the dialogue. And Nancy and John, I’d like to see you get more of your members to some of these meetings so that they can add to the dialogue too.
Chris- It was nice meeting you as well. I hope that we will have other opportunities to meet and converse.
I thought last nights viewing of the video went well. I, too, wish the HSM folks would have hung around and participated in the QA time. This is not the first time I have been in a similar venue with them where they had an opportunity to participate but did not. It appears they just take notes. I am going to assume they report back to their leader or the HSM membership. Maureen Wood has never had a problem speaking in other public arenas so I do not know why she was not willing to speak last night. I can only hope that after seeing the video that maybe she and her compadres are beginning to see the light. Hopeful, aren’t I?
I do have to agree with Nancy Lyall. The Hispanic/Latino community is fearful. They have been stabbed in the back. Changing the resolution only pulled the knife out part way. It pained me once again to hear what she had to say. Many of you may or may not agree with her but what she says is usually painfully true. The Hispanic/Latino community needs to be embraced and welcomed. I speak to those living in my neighborhood and they are fearful. They no longer live in freedom because of their fear. They are hostages. Rescinding the resolution may help but I wonder. The damage has already been done. The Hispanic/Latino’s will never trust the community or its political leaders again and if they do it will take a very long time. So, it is up to us. Speak to your Hispanic/Latino neighbors, smile and say hello when you pass them on the street, in the grocery store, in the mall or where ever. The change in will have to start with each of us doing our part to help heal the wounds and to pull the knife out of their backs. I also hope that Nancy and John can get more Hispanic/Latinos to attend meetings such as last night’s and contribute to the dialog. Given the fear I wonder if they are willing.
The resolution is not needed and it should be rescinded. The 287(g) program is working and was working in the jail. Why the duplication? As Chief Deane reported in April 2008, the same number of people arrested in March 2008 under the resolution would have been arrested without it.
Censored,
I agree with your statement to John & Nancy. They also, need to reinterate to their members NOT be fearful to report a crime. I’m not sure how hard that point has been driven home to those in fear of calling the police when they are victims.
Marie,
I think it’s only fitting to point out HSM one sole spokesperson, and that’s the president. Perhaps, that’s why Maureen declined to talk. I don’t know. I really wish they’d stuck around. I think they may have seen some common ground with most there.
I hope we can get together for a “local mini-economy party” in the near future.
K-
NotGL gave a nice review. I was very pleased to see Marty & Wally there. I hope the other 6 Supervisors take the time to go to one of the screenings.
Sorry, I didn’t get back to you. I got side tracked by more important things.
NotGL-
Excellent review of the evening.
Sounds like everything was very interesting. I am bummed I missed it, but I am so glad that you guys gave me the details. Thanks!
I have never posted to this blog before but I have been following the blog since its inception.
I was at the screening last night and want to say a few things. First, it was easy to watch the feature and lose sight that the resolution wasn’t about political maneuvering, it was always about the damage it did to real, live people. Second, I disagree with Annabelle’s reference to HSM and MSF as being on opposite sides of the spectrum. I think this is a poor characterization of MSF. I don’t perceive them as being anywhere near as radical as HSM. They represent a group of people that have little power over the political process at the local, state or federal level. People that have no political power must advocate for themselves in a very different way than those that do. Remember the civil rights movement of the 1960’s? Demonstrations, marches, economic boycotts. How can MSF actions over the past year be understood as anything other than the attempt of powerless people to be heard. While MSF did not represent all members of the Hispanic community they certainly proved they had the ear of many and could turn out a crowd when needed. I was at many MSF events and saw nothing but lawful, respectful, orderly and compassionate actions. All coming from people who were bearing the brunt of a mob action that was sweeping the county.
Nancy L made some very good points last night about the Hispanic community still having a knife in their backs. Our BOCS sold a whole group of people down the river for their own political agendas and then turned a deaf ear to them. I don’t see how healing can take place in our community until the knife is removed from the victims back. MSF can bring many victims into the healing process but first the knife needs to be removed. Marty and Wally should not have been smiling at the end of last nights screening. They were the perpetrators of the crime.
Tenacious, HSM was allowed to paint MWB as extremist through the use of Letiecq’s blog ,which was the only game in town and highly censored. But anyone who watched the twelve hour BOCS Citizens Time knows that isn’t the truth for the vast majority of MWB. The press has further focused on the two groups as opposites usually inviting the same speakers as representatives. I think it’s important for those people who were far and away the majority at that BOCS meeting to come out again as much as they feel safe doing. They should join the dialogue with mainstream people who attended the screening last night. Don’t let Letiecq banish people to the shadows. Come out and let your opinion be heard. That resolution blind-sided the average person in this county. Help reestablish the ties with the residents. If HSM wants to remain a marginalized group, that’s its members’ choice. Don’t let it be yours. Take that power away from them.
I think getting rid of the rest of the resolution would help remove the knife.
WHWN, outside of what I listed in my little speech, I think we need to give the elderly home repair services because first, they are elderly and cannot do it themselves, and second, we need to make sure the neighborhoods are kept up. Furthermore, homes in disrepair can be dangerous and fire hazards.
Some people love to complain about their neighbors’ houses, but then they want to make sure the elderly cannot get the problem fixed. Huh??
I think another thing that would help the community as a whole. Is for the media to reach out to those more in the middle. Nancy nor Greg represent the thoughts of the majority of the residents in PWC. It’s time for the media “beat the streets” and find the thought of those with a more moderate tone, and not the same ole tired rethoric we’ve heard for the last year.
k
There are a few programs like “mend house” through the county. Well, they may have been cut this go around just like the Manassas Senior Day Care Center. Grrrr!
I will try to dig up some information and post it.
“Well, they may have been cut this go around just like the Manassas Senior Day Care Center.”
Yeah, what’s with that? The BOCS needs to remember that some day they will be old. I guess they aren’t worried though because they have enough money to do what they want in their golden years.
Censored, I agree that both Greg and the media painted MSF as an extremist group but Annabelle should not perpetuate that misperception.
The BOCS wasn’t listening during that 12 hours of pleading and I am sure you have noticed that there has been an unmistakable absence of Hispanic voices at BOCS meetings since then. The BOCS can’t even acknowledge the damage inflicted on our community. I don’t believe for one minute that “film festivals” or “discussion circles” will do anything to heal those most wounded by the BOCS’s actions. What is the point of a one-sided conversation? Rescinding the resolution would go a long way to healing what is ailing this community and bring Hispanic voices back to the discussion.
k-
Here’s a little something I found about Neighborhood Services parternering with “Project Mend-A-House”. This from the November/December 2005 edition of Neighborhood News.
They help seniors, disabled, and low income residents of PWC, City of Manassas, and City of Manassas Park.
http://www.pwcgov.org/docLibrary/PDF/004020.pdf
We can look at the glass is half empty or the glass if half full.
I am glad that Marty and Wally were smiling. Both of these gentlemen helped fix something that was horribly broken. I praise the efforts of those who managed to wrestle the resolution away from a few and into the hands of many. The teeth of the resolution have been broken and have no bite.
Small incremental steps have been taken. Be patient. We have much to recuperate from and will get no where if we continue to fight over something that really is a done deal. If you think the resolution is the big problem, then you don’t understand it.
Marie spoke some real words of wisdom. I think if we follow her advice we will go further than all the legislation in the world:
Chris, thanks for the link. The project looks good. The question is though, who is “eligible”? Do they check citizen status?
Dolph,
Responding to…“If you think the resolution is the big problem, then you don’t understand it.” My point exactly, it is not the resolution that continues to hurt our community, it is what it represents…the BOCS’s capitulation with a small group of extremist and their willingness to pray on the powerless to achieve their own political agendas. This is the reason Marty and Wally should not be smiling.
The BOCS needs to acknowledge the destructiveness of their actions and rescinding the resolution would do that plus be a healing jester. If the resolution has “no bite” then why would anyone want to preserve something that inflicted so much pain?
With all due respect…Never ask someone in pain to be patience. My husband once made that mistake when I was in labor.
Tenacious, I have noticed the lack of Hispanic voices at the BOCS meetings. I think it’s a mistake to be uninvolved in those meetings despite the resolution. (I hope there have been some voter drives.) In hindsight, I’ll make a wild-assed guess and say that fewer than two hundred people in this entire county are responsible for that resolution being foisted off on us, and I have to thank Eric and Annabel for following the trail of how it was done. Greg Letiecq doesn’t speak for me and I’d venture to say he speaks for a small minority of people in this county.
I don’t know if the damage can be repaired. Most of us who have always treated people equally will continue to do so. Do you think rescinding the resolution will bring many changes for the Hispanic community? What steps would you follow after that or in spite of that -if it isn’t rescinded?
“If the resolution has “no bite” then why would anyone want to preserve something that inflicted so much pain?”
I agree.
I will continue to ask to have it recinded since it’s useless and just causes pain. For those who wanted it pushed through, they can be happy with 287g, neighborhood services etc. And I think if we have a citizen advisory board, people who feel they are being overlooked will still have a place to come to discuss issues that have NOT been dealt with.
If HSM/FAIR/etc. want to keep pounding at this, let them do it at the federal level, not here in our home towns where their policy pushing has proven disastrous.
Right. We don’t need a hodge-podge of immigration law in this country. There should be an expected uniformity from state to state, county to county. And we don’t need the accompanying hostilites that these local laws create in our communities. Our communities are our homes, our refuges. We don’t need this crapola in our neighborhoods. Let the local zoning laws, noise ordinances, building codes, etc. take care of problems in the community – haha, as though those codes haven’t been reviled for decades themselves.
Wow, what an amazing week on Anti! I’ve been on vacation and I just finished reading through the last week’s postings and responses. I honestly think this week’s topics and threads have been amongst the best since I’ve started following the blog in late March.
The video’s were great, Turn PW Blue’s post was fantastic (as always…and I’ve missed him lately!) and it sounds like last night’s event was well attended.
Well done, Alanna and Elena!
k-
I don’t know what if any restrictions PMAH have, if any. Here’s their website. I think you will find it quite interesting. Last year the completed 225 projects serving 100 clients with various things. Here’s the link. Enjoy!
http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy-dc.org/2007/project_mendahouse_71669.htm
Censored, I will continue to push to have the resolution rescinded. If it is rescinded or even if it isn’t our BOCS need to initiate a PR campaign and do some serious outreach to the immigrants of our community. A citizens advisory board would be a great start as well as a public acknowledgement/affirmation of our county’s commitment to human rights and the work of the Human Rights Commission. Then we need a vehicle to address the problems that develop when diverse cultures must assimilate. We have all heard the complaints…noise, language, crowding, chickens, etc, etc, etc. Anytime they remain unaddressed it is fertile ground for the likes of FAIR and HSM. Wouldn’t it make sense to also share the lessons learned in this county with other jurisdictions? We were FAIR’s lab rats and we played right into their hands. Lets warn as many as we can.
Another thing…I would think about replacing some members of the BOCS if they don’t soon become better stewards of the responsibilities that have been entrusted to them.
The current BOCS is in office for the next the next 3 plus years. I would probably figure out a way to work with them or at least 5 of them. That’s what it is going to take. a 4-4 vote fails.
I believe most of them are good people who got blind-sided by what they thought, however erroneously, to be the wishes of their constituents. Let’s give them a chance to do the right thing.
Tenacious,
I agree with you. If Marty and Wally were smiling at the end, we have failed. They should have been silent in shame. Did anyone ask them any tough questions directly?
Depending on the good will and morality or our elected officials has clearly failed us. Now that the election season is over, we must look to bringing other pressures to bear.
FAIR has turned our county into an example for others to follow. We will be victorious on the day that we turn all their hard work into an example of how their policies are utter failures.
Moon-howler,
They didn’t get blind sided so much as go along with what would get them elected. They had a chance to do the right thing and broke our county in two. Let’s not leave it up to them this time around. Let’s organize and build a wave of support that will wash them along with us.
Tenacious, I agree with your ideas about community outreach, creating an advisory board, and warning other communities. We have a frightened group of citizens, a lack of knowledge within the community about the changes in the resolution, neighbors upset about problems near their homes (trash,noise,etc.), and a need for a PR campaign to negate the image our community has been given.
I think the BOCS may need the cover of the university study in order to rescind the resolution . Personally, I’d like to see it rescinded because I think the 287g program in the jail is adequate.
Mackie, I think you need to see one of the films. There were some pretty tough questions asked. Marty Nohe worked tirelessly to tweak some things that brought the immigration resolution full circle, back to the 287g program, which I have no problem with.
The political reality is, if politians make policy change and then they still get beaten up, what is going to happen the next time a group of citizens approaches them?
If Marty and Wally want to get beaten up, I am sure that the black velvets will oblige them. I don’t know. I feel like I am in bizarro land tonight. Their political demise is probably being plotted as we speak.
What would happen to any of us if we voted not just for ourselves but for other people as well?
We would be thrown in jail.
What happens to the Ruling Class when they fraudulently vote in the name of others?
Nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYiDysD_5Jo
I think we should support Marty, Wally, and Frank because they are LISTENING no matter what has happened in the past. If we don’t support them and the other side trashes them at the same time, what motivation do they have to continue to listen to us and hopefully support changes?
People make mistakes. It’s a fact of life. I have more respect for people who say, hey, I made a mistake then I do for people who pretend they are always right even when most obvioulsy, they are wrong.
The resolution CAN be undone, and ironically, it can be undone at no cost as opposed to the money that has already been wasted on trying to get it implemented. A genuine, “Hey, sorry, we just didn’t know but we want to make things better” is years above, “See? I told you so!” when nothing worthwhile has been said.
To protect and to serve…
Oh yeah, and also to tazer blind crippled old ladies…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zt9_Uve_Bc
Tenacious,
MWB needs to change its name if they want to change their image from that of an extremist group. I don’t know enough about the organization to speak to their goals. They seem to me to be a fairly voiceless, harmless organization with a name that does them no favors.
Perception is reality. If I have a name that makes you think I am going to be in your face, then it doesn’t matter about my intent. Your mind is made up. If someone comes along and make you into a villain even more, then the die is cast.
The public sees 2 sides. MWB and HSM. The moderate ‘side’ seems invisible and is not tolerated by either ‘side.’
Wow, it is late and I am tired but here goes.
“I have more respect for people who say, hey, I made a mistake then I do for people who pretend they are always right even when most obvioulsy, they are wrong.” – the point I am trying to make is that none of the BOCS are admitting they made a mistake. They are only taking credit for sly political maneuvering. This does nothing to mend a broken community.
As far as MWB/MSF’s choice of a name – As someone who has spent many years on the Mexico/US border I thought nothing of this name when I first heard it. It was not until I read the ranting on BVBL that I gave it a second thought. Does anyone know what the name means to the members of the organization? Is it indication of anarchist leanings? I doubt it. I will make it a point to investigate for sure but here is what I think. I have spent a lot of time on the Mexico/US border and I assure you that most of the US citizens and Mexican citizens living there move fluidly between the two countries on a daily basis. When I am there I am definitely a GWB (Gringo Without Borders). Moving back and forth and back and forth. On the border, borders make no sense. And walls are even more senseless. All the post- 911 security seems more of nuisance then a necessity. In some border towns they still share the same water and sewage systems,the same holidays, parades, etc. Anyway, I always took the name Mexicans Without Borders to designate a group of people that were living, for whatever reason, between two countries. Nothing more than that. After all, we live in a global society and technology is making man-made borders increasingly meaningless. Like it or not, capital and goods moves effortlessly across borders (NAFTA for example) and so do people, albeit not effortlessly.
Tenacious,
When I referred to Mexican without borders last at the screening on Friday night, it was reply to how Greg and HSM feel about our work. I was trying to explain where Eric and I were at the beginning of our project. I said that we didn’t really know much about the immigration debate, we didn’t have any opinions about how the immigration issue should be resolved, and we didn’t readily identify with the two sides that we thought were in conflict so we felt like we could be neutral.
I don’t think now that HSM and MWB represent two ends of a spectrum. In fact, I don’t see a spectrum really. I see a distinct phenomenon. This is what I said in the thread about our latest two videos in replying to Mackie’s question about whether or not we are biased.
Did I say anything else that led you to think that I was perpetuating the perspective that there is a two-sided conflict in Prince William?
Tenacious and Annabel, you are both right that MWB and HSM are not two opposing sides of a spectrum. I’m still a bit confused about MWB because (1) their name is so atrocious and (2) we allowed Gospel Greg to define them during the time that mattered most.
Strictly speaking, it is inaccurate to mention the two groups as equally radical opposites.
It is inaccurate because in truth, HSM is a lot more extreme, a lot more dangerous, and a lot more harmful to the community. HSM wanted to and still wants to impose radical changes to our way of life, a near police state in which sworn officers are charged with checking our papers each and every time we come into contact with them, whether we ran a red light or just asked them for directions. That is truly radical.
What is radical about MWB? For a long while, they were the only ones brave enough to stand up to Gospel Greg. That was radical in the sense that no one else had the courage in 2007. No one.
What else? Their main function, as I understand it, has been to support the immigrant community. Okay. So they don’t see people without papers as less human than people with papers. This is no where near as radical as storming our local government, seeking to transform our society into a quasi police state, and seriously damaging our economy, our public safety, our reputation, our tax base, and our tax rate for the foreseeable future. Radical edge goes to HSM.
But the comparison is fair in one sense: reputation.
Because MWB was the only group brave enough to stand up to HSM (even after they were called names, God forbid), they were viewed as antipodes during the peak of the conflict when most opinions were formed.
They’ve got that horrible name.
And, rightly or wrongly, the Black Velvet / HSM community seems to blame MWB for the content of Mr. Fernandez’s sign. There are some in the general public who share this assumption. Mr. Fernandez is a Mexican American who ALSO stood up to HSM when they were at their scariest, so it was not unreasonable to assume that he was working with MWB.
And finally, because of Gospel Greg’s incomparable hate-mongering, one might even venture to say that MWB’s reputation is every bit as negative as HSM’s. At one point, MWB might have had a worse reputation in fact, when Gospel Greg still had some influence and was even considered as a leader in the VA Republican party.
Now days, with the impacts of the Duecaster Economic Disaster beginning to take root, and with Gospel Greg’s string of public meltdowns, HSM has surpassed MWB in the bad reputation department. But broadly speaking, in terms of having a bad reputation, the two are roughly in the same boat because more people were paying attention in 2007 when Gospel Greg still had influence, before he dragged down the reputation of MWB with his notorious public meltdowns.
Wow! I just reread Annabel’s post and saw something brilliant.
Annabel wrote:
Help Save Manassas was a distinct phenomenon. We saw the most active members of the PWC Republican party join forces with F.A.I.R., NumbersUSA, and the rest of a tech-savvy and hate-ridden national network known as The Anti-Immigrant Lobby. Until we figured out what we were facing, our democracy was held hostage, our leaders were paralyzed, and our community was torn apart.
Perhaps to find the solutions we are seeking, we need to let go of the “two ends spectrum.” Thank you Tenacious for pointing this out, and thanks Annabel for the paradigm shift!
The murky middle needs to come out of the closet and needs to not be marginalized. Most of us fit in the middle. In the beginning, there were only 2 choices: HSM and MWB. MWB has an atrocious name that makes them difficult to support, even if you sympathize, especially after HSM finished broadbrushing them. They didn’t do much outreach to the non-latino population and I understand why. They also used tired 20th century protest tactics that just weren’t effective at all. Judging from the age of their leaders, I think that the leadership folks had the best of intentions but out of date methods of implementing change. The people had great hope and their hope didn’t come to fruition.. What happened was a bad lesson in democracy.
HSM blindsided the supervisors and the people of Prince William County. Their leader used technology to his benefit and there was support from the Republican Party. I don’t need to explain more about HSM, we are all extremely familiar with them.
Had it not been for people pushing the middle ground, I believe the resolution would have remained at it was intended on October 16, 2007. Serveral supervisors were willing to listen and work with those moderates. I commend these supervisors and thank them efforts to undo a wrong. These supervisors to not exist in a vacuum and like politics, this issue becomes a matter of give and take. This mess wasn’t made in a day and it will not be corrected in a day.
Many people have lobbied, documented, spoken and devoted a tremendous amount of time to alter the course of what appeared to be a raging river.
Eric and Annabel have been invaluable. Their work speaks for itself. Their ability to talk with people and to get doors open that previously had been closed helped turn the tide of Prince William history.
Alanna and Elena have given us a place to speak when we had none. They created a place for us to exchange ideas with many who were unable to come forward. Many people who must remain behind the scenes have given time, advice, knowledge, and informaton, to help tame the river.
We have miles to go before we sleep.
MWB has ideas that some people take to be quite radical. The idea of open borders scares most people.
I actually didn’t think MWB was aspiring to completely open borders myself, but I guess I am wrong. Most of them DO want truly open borders. Okay. They are allowed to want that.
I’m having a similar discussion on Citizen Tom about what Henryk Kowalczyk calls the “Freedom of Migration Act.” Here is my response, and it applies to open boarders as well.
Henryk asks who is the lady in the video here on Anti. Henryk also asks:
“Why our country is not ready for the freedom of migration? Are there any other freedoms that our country is not ready for? For whom it will be to decide that our country is ready for freedom?”
kgotthardt // July 26, 2008 at 8:00 pm
I think psychologically and intellectually, most people can’t handle the concept. It is too different from what we have now and people find change, especially drastic change, difficult. That’s why it took so long (and continues to take time) for certain minority groups to really be treated as equals even after all this time. Society doesn’t follow the sciences. You can’t give society an equation and say, “Here. It’s logical. Accept it.” People often are not logical because first, they are people, and second they are fearful. Change is scary.
Only we (the people) can decide when we are ready, and we do that by the vote. You have already acknowledged you hold an unpopular opinion. So you know you have an uphill battle, so to speak.
Strategically speaking, if you want FMA to become more acceptable, you have to start small–make changes that will lead you in the right direction. But trying to go from what we have right now immediately to FMA is like asking a baby to be born as soon as it is conceived.
(And no, the woman speaking in that video isn’t me. That’s Elena, one of the Admin. people on Anti-bvbl. She’s a kind of Wonder Woman.)
http://citizentom.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-debate-continues-is-there-an-immigration-problem/#comment-13777
Annabel and Eric should be given an award for their films.
Alanna and Elena should be given citizenship awards.
Frank Principi should be given “The Brave BOCS Member” award.
Anyone else want to add to the awards ceremony?
Eric & Annabel,
You both are to be commended for your efforts. I thought you really shed some light on what’s really been going on in our county. I really hope my family gets an chance to see the movie. I would also love to hear that each and EVERY Supervisor has seen this movie.
I am very serious about doing a ride along with Neighborhood Services. This department has improved drastically over the last year. They are one of the greasest tools we have to address and fix the quality of life issues which effect each and every one of living in the county.
I thought your comments were fair Friday and posted above. You did NOT do anything to perpetuate a two-sided conflict. One side refused to talked to you basically, and others were of a belief that you two were biased based on others’ opinions. I think that’s a big problem right now in the county. We as individuals need to do our own homework better, and quit relying on the same sources all the time.
After discussing the evening with my husband Friday night. I was left asking myself “would things be different today if ALL had been willing to share their story with Eric & Annabel”? I will tell you both I’m sorry I refused to talk with you all. I know early on you reached out to talk to me through others. You’ve both reached out over the last couple of months directly with me, and I still haven’t sat down with you all. You know I’ve been sitting on the fence the last couple of weeks. Well, after seeing the movie “with my own two eyes” it’s got me thinking even more about the past year. I had perception of you, and it was not reality. I will tell you this I now have MY OWN perception of you, and it is reality. Mostly because I have been doing my own homework.
We must never forget “perception is reality”, right?
Thanks for sharing your movie with the community.
Chris,
Who decides what is quality of life? The ethnic majority? If so, that’s wrong and should not be allowed.
As long as someone’s behavior isn’t damaging your property shouldn’t they be free to do whatever they want on their property?
If they are damaging your property, I think the proper course is to take them to court.
Mackie,
That’s your opinion and your entitled to it. I will tell you this when someone has huge piles of debris ranging from trash to building materials attracting rats. Those rats travel through others yards. Yes, that does effect my property when it’s a cut through. Remember people do have pets and more importantly children this is not healthy. Maybe you’d be comfortable living like that, but I think it’s safe to say most do NOT.
You seem to think that Zoning takes every person to court. Their county ordinances in place for a good reason. They can contact the owners or occupants and let them know what needs to be taken care of that’s in violation. Very few cases actually see a court room.
How dare you ask me to “who decides what is quality of life?” I clearly stated it effects ALL who reside in the county. BTW- do you even live in PWC?. If you don’t live here then our rules do not effect you.
I’m no fan of youtube. However, this is an amazing clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE
Chris,
‘Quality of life’ is a catchall phrase that can easily be abused by the cultural majority to unjustifiably impose their standards on the cultural minority. It’s not right. It’s not fair.
I feel that if you can’t take your neighbor to court for what they are doing then you have no case. If you can’t convince a judge that something is wrong, then you really haven’t been wronged. I disagree with the idea of having some annoying bureaucrats running around telling everyone how to live their lives. I don’t want my tax dollars to go towards paying to have myself harassed.
When it comes to your rat scenario, I would suggest carefully and respectfully talking to the neighbor. If that doesn’t work I would suggest acquiring proof and taking the offenders to court.
Mackie,
The problems have been resolved, and yes I did speak to these neighbors and so did many others. Again, NOT everybody gets taken to court. I am not a “sue happy” individual like so many we read about two local blogs. The courts are already overloaded with real crimes. That’s the last thing our judges need to be hearing is a bunch of “blogger cry babies”. Contacting the county is not taking your neighbor to court. Why can’t you understand that? That never mind, it’s of no real relevance to me.
You think rats in neighborhoods are ok, yet you don’t think dogs should be at the polls. That doesn’t add up. The rats DON’T belong in neighborhoods, and dogs DON’T belong at the polls. I will not rehash the negative things I was seeing. I am trying to focus on the positives.
Do you live in PWC? Or Manassas or Manassas Park? If you don’t why do you give a rat’s a$$ about the PWC Zoning laws?
Mackie you and Red Dawn love to post the youtubes. Did you look at that one I posted?
Have a nice day.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5huiVTwLLrGgRl9AkZSSKKv3sE1fAD920DRO80
Mackie,
I’ve seen this horrible article and even commented on it yesterday. No HUMAN BEING should ever be a murder vicitim.
FAIR Family Tree: New tool to help understand anti-immigrant networks in the United States
http://campaignforaunitedamerica.org/index.php?/about/updates/fair_map/
This is an amazing interview with an eye-witness of the beating murder of the immigrant in Pennsylvania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpe3ayKYwyY
True to form, the racist police cuffed and searched the Latino victims looking for something to convict them of a crime. When told the names of the white perpetrators and which direction they fled, the police refused to search for them.
This is exactly why Latinos across the country need to start exercising their right to keep and bear arms wherever they still have this freedom. Not just for their own defense, but for the defense of the millions of unarmed immigrants who have no means of protection beyond their bare hands.
Of course, we all know what the police will do when they see Latinos openly carrying arms to protect their right to live.
The racist burrough manager immediately goes on record to defend the murdering teenagers:
Mackie, I’m not sure that the average person has the skills to pursue a lawsuit, even in small claims court (or whatever it’s called in Virginia). I think most people talk to neighbors before involving the county or city police or Neighborhood Services. Some homeowners/renters don’t give a damn about how their properties affect their neighbors. Most people do care but some absolutely don’t.
The regulations/laws are on the books so why not employ them? Why should I spend my money and time in court because my neighbor has eight untagged cars in various states of repair on his front lawn and is operating a used car lot in a residential area? There are ordinances that the county will enforce against that behavior. The time to influence those regulations/laws is at the time they’re enacted…or work to get them repealed. What I don’t approve of is using any of these ordinances solely to harass neighbors – like the bigot on the dark side who bragged about continually calling the police on his Hispanic neighbor in an attempt to drive the guy out of the neighborhood. The regulations should be a way of separating the bigots’ trumped up complaints from some neighborhood problem that can be legitimately addressed.
Sometimes going to court might be more effective if your documentation is better than that of the police who are not going to be around your house 24/7. Usually a legitimate complaint will involve more than one neighbor and not be nitpicky.
“I feel that if you can’t take your neighbor to court for what they are doing then you have no case. If you can’t convince a judge that something is wrong, then you really haven’t been wronged. ”
I feel if you can’t work it out between yourselves, you should go to mediation….you know, that program that was originally supposed to be cut, the one that helps keep people out of court?
http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=04005200257
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/24/police_accused_of_coverup_in_taser
k-
Let’s not forget ODR was on the “chopping block” earlier this year. Wally and Marty each gave $10,000 each to keep it going another two months.
I don’t think zoning issue escalate to that level. I don’t think all aware of all the ordinances. I have delivered many information booklets from the county with important information and ideas for making your neighborhood even better. This booklet is in both English and Spanish. It clearly lays out the rules for the most common offenses
The problems in western Prince William County in the suburbs have been so severe that you would go broke taking all of them to court, even if you could track down the rightful owners. There are many absentee landlords and there are tenents who do not care about the property they live in.
When you live around others there have to be community standards. As Censored states, you need to challenge the ordinance and point out why it is wrong for everyone. Prince William County allows residents to apply for a variance when they have a sound reason not to comply with the community standards. Seems fair enough to me.
If I were as strongly libertarian as you are about property rights, Mackie, I would go live on top of a mountain or in the desert where no one but the rattlers would mess with you. The rest of us will just deal with PCE. I wouldn’t give some lawyer the money to go settle rat issues when there is a county vehicle in place to address the problem.
Katherine and Chris, I would like to see Marty and Wally added to the list of award recipients. Good job at remembering those contributions, Chris. That is a big bite out of their discretionary funds. Who else contributed? I seem to recall others.
Mackie, you deserve a response to the hate killing in Pennsylvania. Too often, events like this are used to create still more violence and more hate, so while I am angry, I hesistate to assign blame to anyone other than the young men who committed this crime. If we do accept the premise that all life is sacred, and that no human life is worth more or less than any other human life, we have to look at this as a tragedy for these families, this town, and for our country. We have to think in terms of how to avoid such tragedies recurring.
Certainly, charging these young men as adults and charging them for a hate crime on top of murder is a necessary step.
It might not be necessary to accuse the police of not doing their best to solve the crime or the D.A. to bring charges swiftly. I am rather disgusted that they cuffed and searched the witness, and wonder if they would have done so if he were not a male Hispanic.
But my feeling is that the only “bad guy” we can blame for this is the current climate in American that is breeding hate between races. I feel certain that those partisans who selected the immigration “issue” as their salvation in 2007 (in Virginia) and in 2008 nationally must have known that events like this would be the inevitable result.
The Anti-Immigrant Lobby sees Prince William County as a laboratory, one they would like to export to places all over the country. We’ve already had an apparently racially motivated murder here, as you may know. And I fear that if PWC 2007 were to be multiplied all over the country for the 2008 election, similar crimes would become commonplace.
I feel like most people take Lou Dobbs and Fox News with a grain of salt, knowing that hate-mongering is a political ploy that exaggerates reality to get a desired result. Also, I think that most people who have cable television are of an education and economic level that they are less likely to come into contact with the folks who are currently being accused of being “illegal” (Hispanic immigrants who are struggling economically).
Thus, as dangerous and deleterous as Lou Dobbs style “reporting” is to our country, I feel like the Anti-Immigrant agenda at the local level is even more dangerous. Because the hate infection hits us from all sides, not just thorugh our boob tube.
I have no idea what drove those young men to kill a man because he was Hispanic. I think it is likely that the climate of hate that has been created for this election season is partly to blame.
The proactive thing to do in this situation is to try to lessen the climate of hate. And there is something we can do in that regard, and that is not add to the flames caused by this racially motivated murder and start “hitting back” with language meant to attack certain people or certain professions.
The one profession we should look at in my opinion is that of politicians, political strategists posing as jouralists such as Dobbs, and professional lobbiests such as F.A.I.R. and its Anti-Immigrant network. We should look at them because we are the voters, and we are charged with decided whether to encourage them or discourage them at the polls.
My feeling is that everywhere the Anti-Immigrant Lobby is supporting a candidate for elected office, true Americans should stand against them. The tragedies that unfold in places infected by anti-immigrant hate should not inspire us to hate in return, but to take action against the root cause. Do more than just vote, get involved, and try to defeat the Anti-Immigrant Lobby before it spreads.
MH,
Wally & Marty were the only two. I think they were the only ones with any real money left that late in fiscal year. I can’t say it would’ve been any different if early in the year. All need to remember $400,000 is nice chunk of change for “discretionary funds”. I’ve thanked them both for their support of the ODR. I believe the Clerk of the Court is who set that up for the chopping block simply because it was not mandated. Does anyone remember? I will try to look back at BOS agendas.
At the risk of beating a dead horse I have to ask what is so atrocious about the name Mexicans Without Borders? I have read this several times on the blog and I just don’t get it? Would a group named Canadians Without Borders or Brits Without Borders or even Doctors Without Borders cause the same reaction? You see what I am getting at?
Mackie
Quality of life is determined by the financial gain or loss of property value. For some this is their largest and only investment.
For those that can afford to live on philosophy alone it is easy to be disdainful or challenge these norms. For those that are trying to make a nice life its important. For the greedy it is irrelavent.
Most are in the middle.
On a side note. Let us not forget there are many other immigrants in our community and in the country who are not documented. We should not exclude from our conversations that many ethnic groups have been effected by the actions of our local politians and the Lou Dobbs’ of the world. There are many Asian, European, Australian, Canadian, African and Middle Eastern immigrants here without papers. It is unfortunate that all the finger was pointed at any group but most of the finger pointing has been directed at the Hispanic/Latino population. I believe anyone here who is an immigrant is fearful with or without papers. Like I said before the changes will come when we begin to embrace and welcome them all.
I think MWB sounds like “rules don’t pertain to us”.
Mackie, I think the murder you reference needs to be investigated as a hate crime and if the local D.A. or police don’t view it as such, someone higher up the ladder (FBI?) should.
In my opinion, the Republican party needs to distance itself from FAIR, the anti-immigration groups, and HSM (locally). Voters are sick of this “hate” platform whether its being instructed to hate gays, Hispanics, Muslims, liberals, Commies, women who want to have abortions, people who are hopelessly ill and want to make the decision to die for themselves, Tinky Wink,welfare recipients, Disney, taxes which support our public infrastructure. Enough already!!! Find something positive that doesn’t make this country/county a worse place to live. Kick the loony right-wing nuts to the curb! The average person doesn’t want the vigilante, spy-in-the-bedroom, social dictators that have had a chokehold on your party. Do something about it. I’m an Independent and I’ve voted for a few of your candidates – locally.
Chris, your recollection of the discretionary funds is the same as mine.
Tenacious, the problem with the name is that it gives groups like HSM and scared people the ammo that they need to make more people fearful of Duecaster’s “invasion” and makes them want to become part of the repulsion. (Haha…I don’t think it dawned on Duecaster how ironic the word “repulsion” was when linked to HSM.)
Juturna, 27. July 2008, 14:42
Well said.
What Mackie fails to realize is that a neighborhood that has such issues as I’ve seen and others do effect all property values, and will drive the values down. Or maybe he’s one of the GREEDY ONES. The large number of foreclosures contribute enough, and the last thing we need is all the laws on the books thrown out the window.
Well, Mackie has answered my question does he even live in PWC? If he doesn’t I don’t see why PWC laws are so important to him. He should focus on his community, and hopefully he does. Maybe, he’s just got too much spare time on his hands, and visits us for something to fill his day.
corr: Well, Mackie has NOT answered my question does he even live in PWC?
WHWN,
Thanks for your detailed post. I wonder if the right wing media will give this murder as much attention as the drunk driving incident in Virginia Beach.
Your desire to have faith in those who wear uniforms or wear badges is admirable but misplaced. The police had an eye witness to the event. The eye witness even knew the names of all the perpetrators involved. This is more than enough for immediate arrest of the perpetrators. There is only one reason why the Police would have failed to immediately pursue and arrest the ones involved. They did not arrest them in order to give them time to destroy evidence and time to get their stories straight. It seems the perpetrators may possibly be from well connected families as well as even the Burrough Manager immediately came forth defending their families before the evidence was even gathered. This is criminal and intentional negligence on the part of the Police. They know the perpetrators are busy destroying as much evidence as they can with each minute that passes. Have you ever heard of that expression that the first 48 hours after a crime is the most crucial time period within which to catch the perpetrator. How long before these perps burn the clothes they were wearing that night? How long before they wash the damning dna evidence off their bodies and out from under their fingernails? How long before the kid who delivered the fatal kick buries those shoes in the local dump?
When the police handcuffed the hispanic guy who was trying to break up the fight and then they searched him and his car they were looking for anything to charge him with a crime. They were also trying to give the perpetrators time to get away. When the police said they had received a report of a gun in the area, they were quite simply lying. Those are the kinds of lies they use to scare you into giving up your 4th amendment rights and allowing them to search your person and vehicle. Whenever they say that ‘they received an anonymous tip’ you should assume they are lying.
If you think it can’t happen here, read this article. WHWN, if you are white you have the luxury of trusting the police. Or at least you think you do. But if these had been your children in the following article, you would never give the police the benefit of the doubt again. These are not isolated incidents:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n3_v28/ai_18116297
Another short video for your viewing pleasure, and enlightenment:
http://unfreestate.com/2008/07/27/illegal-runs-up-15m-hospital-bill-then-sues/
Off topic…Once long ago I listened to Anabel talk about how hard it was for some to deal with the changes in their neighborhood. That got me thinking about the “neighborhoods” in Manassas, and the changes they have gone thru. My father in-law’s childhood home and property at the corner of Hastings and Sudley was recently sold. The little white clapboard home was torn down to make room for development in the city of Manassas. My father in law was born in that home in 1938, and was raised in Manassas. One day I spoke with him about Manassas and what the town once meant to him. He talked about how Manassas was once “a nice town but has gone to crap”. I thought he was talking about the current development,immigration, the malls, developments etc. His response to me was “I’m talk’in about when the rich folks decided to build West Gate.” My husband remembers growing up and wishing his parents were rich enough to live in GTS. Instead they lived in the trailer park behind the Mc Donalds on Centreville Rd. When we moved into Sudley 6 years ago, his cousin declared “Now you’re in the big time! This is the rich neighborhood!” To him we made the big time. Perception is reality.
Great share, DB. And the times they are a’changing. When I first came to Manassas Grant Avenue and Pill Hill were the cat’s meow. It just didn’t get any better than that.
DB,
Great story of how long time residents look at Manassas. My aunt and uncle were original owners in GTS and they thought they’d hit the big time.
The Hyltons built the “tract housing” at both ends of the county. I never thought of myself as “rich kid” growing up in WestGate, but I certainly understood there were less desirable neighborhoods. However, I was aware there were people that lived in neighborhoods a lot better as well as a lot worse then mine.
Perception is reality, indeed.
One man’s junk is another man’s treasure.
SA,
I don’t know what to say about your video. What are the options? How would we be better off if the patients weren’t illegal aliens?
Is this plight the plight of health care in general? Medicaid? It certainly isn’t limited to illegal aliens bleeding the system (and I do not intend to imply it is intentional),
MH,
All you can say is that by halting illegal immigration there will be underlying benefits. The same holds true if you manage to prevent them entering your county, as Fairfax will soon discover.
MH,
You raise a very good point, if by accident. You’re right, it wouldn’t cost any less if the people weren’t illegal. However, and here is the catch, because they are illegal they can be deported or persuaded to return, and prevent the cost from occurring. If you give them citizenship (amnesty) they still won’t pay the bills only now they can stay and rack up even more bills in the future. So you’re right, in this case a few documents don’t make a difference. It’s the influx of low waged people that are the burden.
SA,
Your right, the other counties will now see what the problems of illegal immigration are. those broads out in hayseed land dont really have to deal with the day to day problem of illegals.
the problem with illegals eventually will bubble up to the point when even the most leftist individual is not going to tolerate their crap (look at the issues in san francisco now) now the spotlight is on illegal alien criminals. Sure, not all illegals are criminals in the felony sense but unfortuneatly they need to be lumped in with them and prevented from coming here and if necessary sent back.
SecondAlamo,
I think the work they do and its contribution to our economy far outweighs any social service cost.
Irregardless, we who vote control the social services available. Therefore, we cannot blame the immigrant for they do not vote and do not have any control over what social services are available. If you want to reduce the social services, that’s fine.
But you can reduce social services without deporting the immigrants. Focus on the social services and leave the immigrants alone.
elvis,
Real Americans believe in due process which has as it’s foundation judging people as individuals, and judging people as innocent until proven guilty.
Mackie,
Plenty of people in this country probably can’t afford to pay emergency services, and therefore don’t, but why inflamed the burden by welcoming those who obviously won’t be able to pay either? It makes no sense.
More awards:
Marty and Wally, the Bridge Makers
Wait, no.
“Bridge BUILDERS.”
I like that alliteration more.
SA,
I am not for blanket amnesty. I do think there should be a way to put one’s self in legal status. Paying a fine and having a squeaky clean record would be a place to start.
The health care system is so damaged and out of control I cannot think about it without getting a headache. It is horribly expensive to pay out of pocket. It is expensive to even pay an employee share if your company doesn’t provide a good plan.
People on medicare aren’t getting a bargain either. To have adequate coverage costs just under $300. That doesn’t include dental or eye care.
I have a very good friend who does billing for a physicians’ office. She moans and groans all the time about the breaks foreigners get. I don’t know the answer. I am throwing my hands up. I give up. I don’t even have a clever come back. I simply do not know. Pick something that doesn’t deal with health care. Health care just immobilizes me.
katherine,
I agree. Prince William County Bridge Builders Award:
Marty Nohe
Wally Covington
Frank Principi
Chief Charles T. Deane
There are probably others. I think both appointed and elected officials should be eligible.
Because we have the government too much involved creating artificially high prices for medical products. Wherever government sticks its corrupt head into things, you automatically get monopolies and artificially high prices coupled with reduction in quality.
Imagine if we passed a law saying everyone had a right to a cell phone. The only companies that would get contracts would be the ones who gave the best bribes to the legislators. Then because they had a lock on the market, they would charge the highest prices for the cheapest product. Without competition, they would never need to improve the quality or lower the price. And today we would all be walking around with cell phones that had no internet, no photographic/video capability, no text messaging, horrible reception, poor battery life, and was the size of a brick.
This is what cell phones were like at the very beginning. Look how far we’ve come because there is limited government control. In fact our cell phones could probably do a lot more nowadays if the government hadn’t maintained their regulations on radio frequencies and colluded with the big telecoms to help them establish monopolies over the radio frequencies.
Health Alert!!!! While we all sit back and debate immigration, know that there is a more insidious disease among us. My mother was bitten by a tick in VA less than 9 weeks ago. 7 days after her tick bite she went into toxic shock due to ehrlichiosis. She was intubated, suffered from kidney failure, pneumonia, low platlet count, required blood transfusions and was in ICU for many weeks, and rehab for weeks after. Keep yourselves safe, look to yourselves and your children.
elvis writes:
“Your [sic] right, the other counties will now see what the problems of illegal immigration are.”
I’ve found it fascinating how elvis and a few others keep implying that other counties have yet to experience a population of illegal immigrants. On the one hand, Arlington, for example, is often condemned as a sanctuary county. It even has a county-sponsored day labor site, although most illegal immigrant workers are not day laborers. On the other hand, Arlington is supposedly yet to experience the illegal population. Which is it, pray tell?
From what I can tell, Arlington has a substantial number of undocumented people, Latino and otherwise. What it lacks is the war zone created by constitutionally questionable statutes.
DB,
Thanks for the alert. How does one avoid this? I hope your mother is on the road to recovery. Does she live around here? Deer tick or the regular kind?
Leila, great points! You are quite adept at undressing and exposing specious arguments based on a virtual reality created by the Anti-Immigrant Lobby.
Second Alamo and Elvis are stuck in 2007 Anti-Immigrant talking point land. A major thrust of the argument for the Duecaster Disaster was based on the idea that undocumented immigrants are a net cost to a county’s economy and its tax base. Woops. Now we know better. Undocumented immigrants are a net benefit to both.
Or at least they were. Now Prince William County’s economy is at a huge disadvantage to surrounding counties who will now receive the net economic benefit of their presence. Businesses will be more likely to invest money in any economy OTHER than PWC’s because (A) they are likely to find the workers they need and (B) the population and economy of those other counties will be expanding while ours contracts.
What we’ve learned is that the only reason not to want “those people” in you community is if you simply don’t want “those people” in your community. All this silliness about quality of life … just a Corey Stewart/Anti-Immigrant Lobby slogan. You can improve neighborhoods by enforcing housing codes, helping to assimilate people, and effecting a change in behavior. There is no need to expel an entire population. Who’s to say the next group of low-income workers who take their place will behave in a desirable fashion? The Anti-Immigrant Lobby recommended we chop off our hand to treat a hang-nail. Foolishly, we obliged, and now we are bleeding. Simple as that.
To point at Fairfax and Arlington and say, “Aren’t you glad we aren’t like them!” is laughably stupid.
Again, there is only one reason to prefer a contracting economy to an expanding one: in the contracting economy we’ve created in PWC, less ethnic people.
Sad.
Mackie, I am white, I do trust the police, and I don’t know enough about detective work to argue with you about this. If it is bad police work, we can call it bad police work. But there seems to be a racial element to your condemnation of the police. I may be wrong. My only point was that no one should be excluded from this tragedy. It was a tragedy for a community, a town, a nation. Race is indeed part of the motive in a hate crime. But it need not be an obstacle to the healing process that must follow. Peace.
If citizenship is given to the illegals who now are living off of cash or under the table incomes (day laborers, etc.), what would be the effects of them now having to pay deductions and taxes while being monitored by the IRS? Would they still try to work outside the system, or become a tax burdened individual as we? My guess is they wouldn’t be able to handle the added expenses and they would either skirt the law once again, or the foreclosure rates will go even higher. Will you then be advocating tax breaks for them as well along with all the other benefits they will no longer be afraid to request?
News flash:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/27/AR2008072701973.html?hpid=topnews
Here are some interesting snippets from your article, SA. I wonder how some BVBL posters who are citizens will like this one:
Censored,
And you’re excited by this? Something tells me you’re on the wrong side of the border! Sounds like you’d be thrilled if ICE was abolished.
SA, is that “kill the messenger” talk?
It sounds like we will be sharing a lot more of the ICE resources with other jurisdictions in Virginia and we get to pay for for the priviledge. What’s wrong with this picture.
I have been supportive of the 287G program. Obviously. Who wants criminals in their community? Have I been duped? Do we want to short-change our county by paying out over $1.5 million dollars, $10.5 million over five years when there is a program in place state wide now? I am mentally back to square one.
I believe the most important line in the article is:
We are paying a great deal of money into something we have absolutely no control over and at the moment, cannot even find out what has become of those who fell into the 287G detainer net.
SA, most illegal immigrants are not day laborers. Most have regular work. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be contributing around $7 billion (with a b) *annually* to the Social Security system. Citizenship is clearly not the only method of bringing illegal immigrants under legal oversight, you ignore greatly expanded guest-worker programs. But assume what you warn of happened and they were all made citizens and that tiny minority who are day laborers were still day laborers. Well I guess they would citizens in a cash economy similar to American-born citizens who live that way. You doubt it? Check out S. Venkatesh’s study “Off the Books” about the underground economy in an inner-city neighborhood of Chicago. Citizens dealing in underground cash economies are nothing new, even if those economies are marginal. They are widespread in both urban and rural settings.
SA, what is your take on this story? Were we duped?
Whose brain child was it to get the 287g program? Why should we be paying $10.5 million over 5 years and most of the state doesn’t have to? Will we be getting more bang for our buck? It sure doesn’t sound like it.
I am going to be really PO’ed if I have to eat crow on this one. I believed! I thought I was supporting a good thing. Now I am not so sure.
I want criminals off the street. I want illegal alien criminals off the street and I want them not to be in this country after they serve their sentence. When I say criminal, I mean those who commit crimes against property and person. I don’t mean jaywalkers. I can’t think of a person who wouldn’t want the same.
I’ve always wanted to know who if anybody is following how many cases actually go before a Federal Court for deportation And then how many of those cases that do go to court then get deported. Anyone know?
I feel the real numbers of deportation are there at the Federal Courts and Jails, and not at the local jail.
Chris, it doesn’t sound like the ADC knows jack. They aren’t being told. Do you think the feds even have a handle on this information? What is this manual tabulation? Why is it that this information needs to be tabulated manually?
Wars have been fought with the general sitting in Florida. There was a moon landing 40 years ago with the scientists sitting in Houston and in Florida. Haven’t these people heard of computers? Manual tabulation? Wake me up and tell me what century we are living in.
M-H, the 287(G) program enables those local officers (both in the ADC and in the Police Department) who are certified to begin the process of deportation by doing the background and paperwork on the subject. That process and the completed paperwork is reviewed and approved by the ICE agent in charge of their particular program. This is the actual process of deportation.
The new State law does nothing of the sort. What it does is demand that each local jail notify ICE of foreign born inmates – even individuals with legal status as long as they are foreign born. It does not begin any deportation process and it does not select particular inmates for deportation. It merely notifies ICE that a foreign born individual is in their ADC or jail.
So if you’re looking for what does the 287(G) program give you for your money, it can begin the deportation process for illegal aliens in your local jail, instead of just notifying ICE that they are sitting in the jail.
DB, OMG! Hope your mom is okay!
I’m a tick magnet. Yikes!
Lucky Duck,
Thank you so much. I wish YOU had written the article for the Washington Post. I feel much better now. I felt like we were paying the big bucks and everyone else was just skating.
So, in your opinion, did Albo throw PWC under the bus? His quote
was just political-speak for ’see what I have done?’
M-H, while a person without documents can be deported from any jail that contacts ICE and informs them that the subject is there and ICE begins the process, the deportation process will be much quicker and individually targeted here in Prince William (”the worst of the worst” as the saying goes) because those that can initiate and perform the deportation process are here under 287(G).
I’ll leave the political pandering to those who like their names in the papers.
Okay, but doesn’t all this reporting just put ICE more behind? Do they have to sort through those who are merely foreign born and those who could be undocumented?
Lucky Duck,
Thanks for the clarification. I still can’t understand why with all the debate here in PWC that there aren’t any “real numbers”. Isn’t what’s going on in PWC worthy of such details? I just wonder how many of the number Corey says have been deported, actually have been deported? Are they all still serving jail time? How do we know further down the road that these individuals weren’t released because ICE didn’t have room to detain them after they’d served their sentence for the crime that was committed in PWC? Can you help me out here?
WHWN,
I have to admit my knowledge concerning police procedure is limited at best. I am speculating as to what really happened in PA. In reflection, I probably have been too judgmental about the situation.
In all fairness to the police, when they show up at a crime scene, they do not know who the perps are and who are the victims. That being the case, it’s understandable that they would cuff people who were involved in the fight and search them as long as they don’t violate their 4th amendment rights. What I cannot understand at all is why the police did not immediately proceed to find and arrest the people identified as the perpetrators. This is especially troubling because the police had an eyewitness who actually knew the names of the perpetrators.
For the life of me I cannot think of a single legitimate reason that they would not have immediately gone to the homes of the perpetrators and arrest them. Physical evidence is absolutely crucial in a case such as this. DNA evidence would be priceless and that DNA evidence begins to deteriorate the second the crime is over.
Maybe the police officers were just careless. Perhaps they know the eye witness and know her to be a liar. Many things are possible but at this point nothing explains why the police didn’t arrest the perpetrators.
I believe in law and order. But I oppose with the abuse of law and order. The police do perform a valuable service in the community. For the most part, I have have found that as long as you are polite and respectful to the police, they will treat you ok. However, situations like this in PA, where it appears that they continue to allow the perpetrators to roam free even to this day, these situations make one worry about what the priorities of the police actually are.
“But I oppose with the abuse of law and order.”
I suspect that describes most of us, Mackie.
Wonderful. Prince William County is shelling out $10 million dollars so that 5% of people reported to ICE are deported. Meanwhile every other locality in Virginia will basically get the same drop in the bucket for free. Thanks Corey Stewart!
But how did I know someone like Second Alamo would be unable to see the complexities in this article? How did I guess that he would think this is another reason to celebrate? Either this guy doesn’t live in PWC, or he just doesn’t understand this policy or much of any policy to do with law enforcement.
Second Alamo, get this straight: there are two VERY BIG reasons why you and every other Prince William County tax payer should be upset about this news.
1) Remember that 12,073 to 694 ratio? Well, that 5 percent is going to go DOWN now, because ICE will be getting reports from all over the state. So if it goes down to 3 percent, we’ll get even less for our money. And other localities will be getting the same 3 percent effectiveness … FOR FREE!
2) The article explains quite plainly how little we were getting from the program before the state law came along. The 95 percent who get let go is the same 95 percent that PWC tax payers are shelling out MORE THAN TEN MILLION DOLLARS to check. That’s right. Let me say it again. We are paying more than ten million dollars in Prince William County to do immigration checks on people who DO NOT receive ICE detainers. They’re let go. We establish they are undocumented and they let them go. That’s what we are paying for. Now, we’ll be getting even less for our money.
Does everyone understand why ICE can only take 5 percent? It has to do with jail space. Their jail space and our jail space. As well as manpower and resources. Sure, we could build giant concentration camps, but that would be expensive and immoral, AND before they are operational, the immigration “crisis” will be solved a the Federal level and we’d have empty concentration camps.
If ICE is ineffective, this is all the more reason to push reform at the Federal level and stop wasting our time locally–because that’s all we are doing at this point. The 287g program is good in concept but is sounding less than effective in practice.
To further explain:
ICE can only handle 5 percent of the people identified to them as undocumented. The other 95 percent are let go.
Unless the person committed a violent crime, they’re let go.
There is limited jail space. Either we lock up the people who commit violent crimes or we lock up the people who failed to stop at a stop sign. Which would you rather have locked up? Which would you rather have back on the street?
If you’re upset that year Spanish when you go to the store, or upset that your neighbors are brown, then I’m sorry, this law is not going to make you any happier. In fact, 287G was never going to help you.
If you want law enforcement to continue to keep our communities safe, then this news is really not news.
They already prioritize based on risk to the community. There will be more people reported to ICE as undocumented because all the jails will be doing what PWC is doing … post arrest status checks (only they narrow this down to foreign born individuals and we check everyone post-arrest).
What does this mean? It means that undocumented immigrants will be incarcerated at the same rate, essentially, that other sub-groups are incarcerated. It all depends on the seriousness of the crime. Would you want it any other way?
The ones that committed a violent or drug-related crime get detainers. That’s fine with me and fine by most. What’s not fine by me is that we have paid out 10 MILLION DOLLARS, plus all the over-time pay for county staff and our police department having to deal with Duecaster Dissater fall-out, PLUS all the time this took away from their ACTUAL JOBS serving this community. We’ve paid all of this for the same stupid 5 percent (which will soon drop down to 2 percent) that all the other localities get for free.
Thanks Corey Stewart!
I think I can explain why Gerhart says we are getting something for our money above and beyond what other localities get.
The new state law requires jail officials to notify the Feds of all foreign born inmates (including naturalized citizens like Arnold Schrawrtzenagger and legal immigrants like Corey Stewart’s wife). This means that ICE will be contemplating deporting these people after they serve their time. Fine with me. (Would anyone object to deportation being part of the penalty for committing a crime serious enough to land you in jail? I hope not, because that would be off topic.)
ICE can only handle what they can handle, however, so they will continue to put detainers on 5 percent of those who are reported to them. In fact, that 5 percent rate will almost certainly drop because there will be more names in the cue.
What Gerhart is saying is that Prince William County will be putting MORE names into the 5-percent-or-less cue than most other juristictions.
We will be putting more names in because we are checking status at the arrest stage, as opposed to at incarceration. About half the people we arrest are released on bond (this also has to do with jail space and is decided based on risk to the community).
So, in addition to the dangerous criminals who end up in jail, we are also reporting the not-so-dangerous people who are released because they are not judged to be as much of a risk to the community.
We’ll be reporting these people to ICE, but … think about it. If they weren’t considered dangerous to even put in jail, how do you think they’ll stack up with the inmates who are incarcerated being reported to ICE from other jurisdictions? Not very well.
ICE will focus on the ones who are in jail because they are (1) easier to find and (2) a greater risk to the community by the fact that they are in jail as opposed to released on bond.
Bottom line: the tremendous costs of the Immigration Resolution, our ruined reputation and our severely damaged economy, the cuts we have been forced to make to social programs that improved our quality of life, and 10 MILLION DOLLARS of tax payer money … all of that was traded for essentially nothing. We are less safe as a result of destroying our reputation and our economy than we were before. Thanks Corey Stewart!
My prediction:
What’s going to happen is that Supervisors including maybe even John Stirrup will blame Corey Stewart for the damages. Who knows maybe they will even pass a vote of no confidence. Corey will turn around and blame Greg Letiecq for organizing a clever insurgency manipulating public opinion by creating an illusion of consensus and also systematically toxifying the community through disinformation, intimidation and bullying. And then Greg will turn around and uh who cares what Greg will do. He’s a nobody now.
What an amazing thread this was. I’m floored by the substantive exchange of ideas. I learned so much by reading every comment. I’m honored to be the 200th comment. Speaking of awards, can we given an award to this thread? The best thread ever.
Can someone alert me if Maureen ever replies to my question regarding Corey Stewart:
If you could have your druthers about which sort of politician to have in your pocket, wouldn’t you prefer a politician who, win or lose, will always tell you the truth? As opposed to Corey Stewart, who saw his policy neutered “over my dead body” and then lied about it so he wouldn’t have to face the Help Save Manassas music?
I wrote this on the Washington Post article comments page after someone accused me of calling them a racist:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/27/AR2008072701973_Comments.html
Lucky Duck,
What is the purpose of this new law that took effect on July 1? Whether a citizen is foreign born or native born, a citizen is a citizen. We citizens should all be treated the same. This new law seems to be a trojan horse that is quietly laying the groundwork to make it possible for our government to treat foreign born citizens differently as a group.
For example, if we should suffer a massive terrorist attack, it would be pretty easy now for ICE to round up all these foreign born American citizens like they did to thousands of muslim Americans after september 11th.
Mackie, perhaps naturalized citizens are excluded. Who knows. The Post article created 100 questions for every one it answered.
I knew nothing about this new state law until today.
Alanna created a thread devoted just to the Washington Post article. We should take it over there.
I wish I had had the idea to film my own documentary a couple of years ago. I would have shown the overcrowded neighborhoods and frustrated neighborhoods, the boiling anger, the stores full of people speaking Spanish rather than English. I would have done extended sequences of trying to communicate via drive-through loudspeaker with fast food workers who can hardly speak English, of townhouses with loud Spanish music booming outside them into other neighborhood homes, of a crowded DMV issuing licenses to people who don’t speak English, of trying to park somewhere near my house, and so forth. Then I would have interviewed families victimized by illegal alien rapists and murderers. It would have been scarier to the average American than the average George Romero or John Carpenter horror film. Would have made a great companion piece to this amateur propoganda.
Maybe someone in Fairfax can make that film nowadays.
WHWN, your words of wisdom are lost on the majority of posters responding to the WaPo article. Their reading comprehension appears to be zip. They just look for the words “deportation”, “illegal aliens”, “287(g)”, “Prince William County” and the spew begins.
Haha. I wonder what it would take to get a post reported there!
Oh i thought of a great climax for the film. Michael Moore style. I would somehow lure Frank “Chicken Man” Principi to that house in his district where they have the chicken coop attachment and the outdoor fire and stove, and let him lecture me about tolerance and diversity while behind us a chicken is beheaded plucked and cooked.
Your film Rick would be called Bigot r’ Us
I’m going to model it after “Roger and Me” and I’m going to pick a head of one of the construction forms around here that hired so many illegals – maybe the one who build those new apartments near the Coverstone 7-11 – and try fruitlessly to get him to talk about his use of illegal labor and my subsidizing of it, aggressively following him around with a miscrophone and making jokes. I’ll use dramatic backyard chicken slaughter footage the way Moore showed the woman selling rabbit meat in his movie.
Or maybe I’ll call it Frank and me and it will have a simple plot – I’ll buy a house next to Franik Principi’s and start cramming illegal aliens into it. After a few months of living next to them, I’ll chronicle Principi’s political conversion into a rabid activist against illegal immigration, complete with a nervous breakdown by him at one of your parties.
or a porn named “House of Meat Gangbang” using the day laborers from the Coverstone 7-11 (they work cheap), that might be quicker to turn over and slightly profitable.
Oh I shouldn’t have said that out loud, Eric and Annabel might steal the idea.
I’ve got the opening sketched out already. A bunch of illegals are having lunch at a Mexican place, and talking crazy stuff “Reservoir Dogs” style. Conversation topics include which is the best place to wait for work at the Coverstone 7-11 (the parking lot, the adjacent hill, or the hill across the street), whether Mexican, Salvadoran, or American women are easier, how old a girl should be before you ogle her (is 12 too soon?), and how many people can fit into a townhouse. Then after about 7 minutes of raucous conversation, they’re getting ready to leave and a man comes over and hands them each a business card, the camera zooms in on a card and it says “House of Meat” … aggressive Spanish music comes in … and then on to several group sex scenes.
Bad weekend, Rick?
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. The creative Rick that I used to see is here but his spirit has gone very dark. I would be more comfortable with this is you just came out and said you dislike Latinos.
Rick, are you applying for the resident ’shock jock’ of Anti?
Rick,
You need help.
Rick,
Why did you fail to mention that they are still at the 7-11? I’ve seen several sitting right at the door practically at the 7-11 and also under the 7-11 sign itself. So much for the work of ridding the 7-11 of them. Now, they’ve only moved about 200 yards. I do NOT condsider that “ridding the 7-11 of daylaborers”. I’m sure there are those that think a shift in their position in the Coverstone area is a “win”. I don’t want to see anyone “hanging out in that area.
Eric & Annabel do films as their profession. Are you wishing you’d had chosen a different career path?
You sound like a combination of people with those last posts, Rick.
Ricardo Bentley,
Lol, I had to laugh at this in spite of myself.
Ricardo,
This ones for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXLVGarpTzc
Went to the DMV today in Manassas where presumably everyone is legal, had a feeling there was probably too much diversity there for some of the HSM folks.
Thank you Mackie. Yes, in that style.
And Moon-howler you’re on to something, Howard Stern makes my day and I listen to him every morning for about 4 hours.
I don’t think my mood is darker. I think it’s just that my argumentive, eager-to-offend self pokes at liberal types here, whereas on the other board I’m more likely to poke at conservatives.
Chris I know they’re hanging out across the street now … even if this is all that happens, there is value in making them move, letting them know they’re not welcome.
Eric and Annabel do amateur propoganda as their ostensible profession. I’m not hating. I’ll make my own major statement, after I raise some capital with the gang bang film.
For the record I have nothing against Latinos, but I am against the acceptance of mass amounts of unassimilated non-English speaking ones into our communities, for several reasons, to include lowering of American wages and standard of living, and perpetual overcrowding which is especially hard to combat when the overcrowdees are allowed to live without proof of ID and can claim they’re all related. It’s not Latino culture that I dislike, it’s the situation our corrupt elite have put us into – I won’t sit still for it, even if it means being called racist.
But I’m not.
First sex scene takes place at an Immigration Lawyer’s office – standard stuff, “what would you do for this green card”.
Next scene takes place on top of the dumpster at the Coverstone 7-11, every 5 minutes or so the cops drive by and the guys all zip up their pants and hide the woman, then the cops drive away and they get back to it, over and over. The proof so to speak is collected in a Slurpee or Big Gulp cup and then ingested.
Third scene takes place under Fernandez’ sign on Liberty Avenue, and I claim it’s a metaphor for oppression, thereby protecting the tape as free speech.
Fourth scene takes place in a Mexican restaurant and the proof is placed into the food being cooked, and then served to a Corey Stewart look-alike. So now I’m doubly protected as “satire”.
Last scene a woman walks into a Manassas Park basement and starts having relations with each of the guys who live down there – all 24 of them.
Tape finishes with a variation on an old racist joke “Unfortunately production was suspended when tragedy struck this production and an accident occurred, during which 22 people were injured, 5 fatally. Basically, the bed broke”.
From upthread, re: Mr. Covington -
I apologize for the foul and inappropriate language; I allowed emotion to get the better of me.
However, I hold a great deal of disdain for him and I believe he makes inappropriate use of his position. My opinion is based on his words and actions. Many years ago, prior to his election, he stated it was his mission to rid PWC government of a particular staff member. Evidently this person, in the lawful execution of his duties with all due diligence, did something which angered and upset Mr. Covington. Recent actions bear out his intent and his attempts to unseat this individual. Covington is not so naive as to say anything in open session, but those who read between the lines hear his message loud and clear on particular topics.
Rick,
I have a feeling they already know they are not welcome there. I really don’t think the needed some to be taking pictures to let them know they are not welcome there. So a shift in a few yards is an improvement? I don’t think so. An improvement would be for the area to be free of ALL those hanging for any and all purposes.
Did you see either of the recent “screenings’? I didn’t see anything hateful coming from their mouths, but I sure her some nasty crap said by some of our leaders. I think you should form your OWN opinion, and quit drinking that kool-aid.
Maybe you could join forces with some local yocals and make your own film. I have plenty of video and stills from the past few years of the area. You’ve looked at them I’m sure in my darker days on another blog where I was one of the most frequent posters. I shared “the honor” with “The Patriot” & “Dolph”. Dolph’s still around. What happened to the Patriot? Was SHE sent out to a greener pasture.
I’ve been called a racist many times too, Rick. There will always be those that call us that unless we agree to open borders & amnesty for all. I will NEVER think like that.
Rick,
I would suggest a new twist, what is old is new again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4SLSlSmW74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uRN4aPsKXo
Red Dawn,
You and those youtubes. How do you do it? Did you catch this from yesterday? I know you will love it. Please, keep the tears to yourself.
Chris, 27. July 2008, 10:15
I’m no fan of youtube. However, this is an amazing clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btuxO-C2IzE
Chris,
I caught that and shared it with many it was beautiful.
Tear jerking all the way!!!! xoxoxox
As far as youtubes, some love it or hate it….tought poop, what would life be if we were all the same? LOL
Cheers
( and sorry to ANYONE, if EVER I posted a youtube that offended or aggravated you
)
From the beginning it was ALL in the name of FUN and trying to lighten things up ( yes, I understand humors vary)
Red Dawn,
I’m in the middle when it comes to youtube, myself. I don’t love or hate them. But I did love that one yesterday. You need not apologize to me for expressing your thoughts/comments. I’ve never been offended in the least by any thing you’ve posted. There are MANY folks that post youtubes. I’ve always thought yours were for exactly the reasons you stated in your last sentence.
Chris
Cheers! LOL and it all started when:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvCupfpric
Rick,
You obviously have your own opinion on the issue of illegal immigration – one with which I completely agree.
This site is populated by a bunch of blow-hards who are anti-Corey, anti-John, anti-resolution, anti-Greg, and anti-HSM.
Many here may not know – or simply forget – that Alanna, the administrator of this blog, was behind removestirrup.com and removestewart.com.
I would ignore the comments about Kool Aid. The majority of posters on this site have a vendetta against one of the above persons/organization.
Loudon said: “This site is populated by a bunch of blow-hards who are anti-Corey, anti-John, anti-resolution, anti-Greg, and anti-HSM. ”
That’s why they call it the “anti” site!
The only thing they are for is illegal immigration!
Haha. Sounds like a good place to be…much better than the dark side.
Oh Greggie Oh Greggie how high shall I jump? Oh Greggie, Oh!
And this is a bad thing? We rather like it. It beats hate-mongers who refuse to discuss any other point of view.
We all know who Alanna is. She created a blog for those who had been censored. Thank you Oh Great Enlightener. Now answer this—-Who is Greg? Don’t forget who accused our police chief of treason.
The real difference, Ms. Loudoun, is that you are allowed to post your remarks here. You know darn well that wouldn’t be permitted over on the dark screen. Those words would disappear faster than greased lightning on other blog.
You should be thanking Alanna that she allows you to come here to insult her and let her know that she isn’t allowed to oppose her supervisor. You know, that American way?
I also wonder if she would be afforded the same courtesy as has been afforded to you and your friends were she to venture on your turf?
test
test2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/content/article/2008/08/01/laptops.html
test
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/content/article/2008/08/01/laptops.html