AntiBVBL

I wonder how Mr. Stewart and pals will spin this?

Thank you for this very detailed thread Alanna! I love it, graphs, something I can totally understand immediately.

So, Corey, once again, shows how willing he is to undermine the truth for his own political gain. Not only has crime been steadily decreasing since 2003, thanks to the leadership of Chief Deane and his excellent police force, but there was actually a very slight increase AFTER the resolution passed. What is the most troubling to me now, with Corey’s blatent misleading comments to the news media, is that NUMBERS USA/FAIR is now propogating the lie based on Corey’s statement. Does Corey even care that a hate group is now using this untrue information to futher their cause?

It’s likely that some will still find a way to still pin this on illegal immigration, whether it has a basis in statistical data or not. They may try to focus on felony assault or rape. Who knows? Some people have a very difficult time changing their opinion even when faced with facts that show they are wrong.

Of course, maybe I’m just being cynical. I suppose I should be open-minded and wait to see what happens…

HERE’s what’s important. Of those crimes, what percentage were committed by illegal aliens?

From now on, we should know.

Diversity Gal,

I agree…I am programmed to be cynical in this day and age. You are not alone!

Rick,

Well, now we will know since everyone’s status is being checked after they are arrested.

Rick, I believe the jails would have that information, and to my knowledge, the percentage is very low (the last Chief Deane report).

Excellent stat work here, Alanna.

Here are some things to think about: crimes against Hispanics have risen. Again, the Chief has verified this.

Second: violent crimes such as we hear highlighted by the anti-immigration crowd, are not the majority of crimes. So the theory that illegal immigration is responsible for violent crime in PWC has been debunked.

Third: if there are so many fewer illegal immigrants in the county, how are the numbers up in the second half of 2007? Supposedly, the “bad people” ran away right? So we can assume the “good people” are committing the crimes, yes?

Things to think about…

We can start placing bets on the classical excuses. I have not been to BVBL yet so let’s see how my powers of perception fare. I’m guessing the #1 spin line will be something like this…

” The slight increases in crime are actually a sign that in fact the Rule of Law is working in PWC. The remaining criminal aliens are acting like trapped animals as more and more are being brought to justice. These increases in crime are a last resort before they too are taken away. We pridict that in the comming days and months, there will be a sudden major decrease in criminal activites as Help Save Manassas steps up it’s crime prevention program with the cooperation of state and local authorities. As more and more vacant properties are filled by law abiding citizens, we expect to see PWC leading other counties in Northern Virginia in having low to no crime rates. We should take the time to thank Corey Stuart and the brave members of yada yada yada….”

(now to see if BVBL follows the propaganda spin logic I studied in college, because the above is nothing but pure B.S.)

Truth be told, this is a recession, recessions break people and broken people sometimes resort to crime to get by. Failure in life (or the preception of failure) is an equal oppertunity employeer, a force that crosses the bounds of color and creed. Investing time and money in the local war on poverty in you communities provides better safeguards against rising crime rates.

Invest Local, Shop Local, Employ Local, Help Local it’s up to all of us to preserve our communities responsibly, our government will not do it for us.

but remember….

If you build a community on hate, you willl hate the community you build.

Lol, Rod2155, you’ve saved them the time of writing the script!

HERE’s what’s important. Of those crimes, what percentage were committed by illegal aliens?

From now on, we should know.

Actually, Rick, we may not know because many crimes will remain unsolved.

Hi kgottahardt, you said:

“Here are some things to think about: crimes against Hispanics have risen. Again, the Chief has verified this.”

Are there some statistics to prove this? Also, can tell how many of the crimes against Hispanics have been caused by Hispanics (Hispanic on Hispanic crime)? The Chief can say this, and I don’t dispute it, but I would like some evidence other than hearsay.

Its true that statistics can be interpreted in different ways. I personally don’t believe the resolution has had a direct impact on any crime statistic except perhaps in the area of calls for service. If your population is decreasing, in theory your calls for service should decrease too because you have a smaller population contacting the police.

It is very difficult to take ANNUAL crime statistics and divide them during the year. For example, January to June will usually have lower crime stats than July to December.
Why? First, because teenagers are out from school on June13th and most of your burglars are teenagers so that crime is higher over the summer. Also, the summer months are when most people travel, leaving houses vacant, ripe for burglaries. Next, most of your suspects in larcenies are also teenagers so that stat will be highter in the summer months (1/2 of June, July and August) than in January to June.

Also, late November to December are the holidays. Typically there is a spike in crime such as burglaries, larcenies and yes, armed robberies around the holidays because criminals need money too, and more people buy things and carry around cash for the holidays. The term “Christmas rush” has a different meaning for a police department.

The above statisical differences in Rape and Homicide are numerically the same for each period and these two crimes are difficult to quantify into 6 month periods as homicide is usually a crime of sudden passion and the criminal act of rape can be influenced by factors such as an attack by a person known to the victim or a serial rapist. I do not recall Prince William ever having a serial rapist (thankfully) which can influence statistics.

The resolution did not lower our County’s crime rate. It was in a steady decline before the concept was even broached here.

There are criminal elements in all segments of society and there are good people in all segments of society. While using statistics to show overall crime rates can be useful, any attempt to blame crime rates on one ethnic group is wrong and statistically unusable. If anything about any groups of people impact crime rates, it is the economic status of the group, not ethinicity.

Hello, I have to look up the report and/or interview. I know it is somewhere. If anyone can find it before I do, PLEASE do! Not sure how much time I have to cite this source this morning. I am not sure I have it on my own blog, but I will look.

Lucky, I suspect overall the resolution has just caused hatred more than anything else. It coud be the rest are just coorelations, not causations.

Rod, love that quote: “If you build a community on hate, you willl hate the community you build.”

Did you make that up? I might want to use it somewhere.

Great points Lucky Duck, I was only asking about Hispanic on Hispanic crime because around where I live I see more and more MS-13 graffiti which leads me to believe there are more and more gang members in my area. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like when ever I read in the paper about an MS-13 crime it’s usually against another Hispanic. If the number of gang members is increasing then it would make sense that there are more crimes against Hispanics happening.

Plus I just wanted to get some hard proof from kgotthardt about her statement instead of hearsay. If the Chief did say that there are more crimes again Hispanics happening then when and where did he say this (where are the numbers to back it up) and are they being perpetrated by other Hispanics.

Sorry KG, I didn’t see your response before I had posted my comment at 11:11.

Thank you for your excellent summation Lucky Duck! It is also clear, based on the average person’s ability to factor in logic to the crime stats, that a resolution passed IN October 2007, would have no impact on crime statistics for 2007 anyway!

So then what’s the purpose of this whole thread – since the resolution passed in October 2007, as Elena says it couldn’t have had any impact on the crime stats. The thread makes it sound like the resolution caused the crime stats to go UP when the first sentence of this thread reads “Crime Statistics in Prince William County INCREASED for the second-half of 2007 after the passage of the “Immigration Resolution”, numbers were higher for the July thru December timeframe for: burglary, auto theft, larceny, assault, robbery and homicides.”

Just what is the point being made?

Observer,

The thread is countering Corey’s media blitz from last week that crime had gone down in the first half of 2007 due to his “get tough” stance on immigration. Now that the second half year statistics say crime rose slightly, how does he spin that?

Thanks for that insight and explanation, Lucky Duck.

I believe what these statistics do show is that the chairman of the BOCS speaks with forked tongue when he gets on national tv for 3 minutes at 6:45 in the morning and declares that THE RESOLUTION has caused crime to decrease.

The ethical bankruptcy shown by the Honorable Mr. Stewart’s statements sicken me.

junkyard dog, I would agree that Mr. Stewart’s statement is hard to prove statistically but you would be hard up to explain how detaining and/or deporting criminals doesn’t help with lowering crime in general. Just think about it for one second, if you detain and/or deport a criminal instead of releasing them directly back into the community it’s a positive thing, right? Or would you rather have criminals who are here illegally allowed to be released right back into your neighborhood?

Hello, per the FBI requirements, all police departments track Part One crimes by the number that occur, the victims and any suspects. All police department reporting forms will inquire into the victim’s and obviously any suspect’s race or ethnicity. So those numbers are available.

It would make sense that if your Hispanic popluation soared from single digits to approximately 20% of the population you would have more victims being Hispanic. So while more people of Hispanic ethnicity are victims of crimes, I attribute that to there simply being more Hispanic people living in the County. I wouldn’t say that Hispanics or any other ethnic group is being targeted at this point in time as crime victims.

Your question regarding Hispanic gangs. Yes, MS 13 is the largest gang in the county across ethnic lines. If you’re not Hispanic, you can’t join. Do these gangs target or operate in their own neighborhoods? For the most part, yes. That would account for their victims being mainly Hispanic.

TWINAD: If the statistics were compared for a similar time period, then some conclusion could be drawn. The fact they are being compared to dissimilar time periods, no conclusion can be drawn, as Lucky Duck pointed out.

Second, the resolution wasn’t even in passed until October, and there was no enforcement of it at all in 2007.

Again, what is the purpose of this thread?

Clearly, Stewart is FOS anyway, as he has been through this entire fiasco. Even if these numbers show NOTHING, it proves HIS interpretation sows NOTHING either. Again….coorelation, not causation. Either way, the numbers disprove his spin.

“Second, the resolution wasn’t even in passed until October, and there was no enforcement of it at all in 2007. ”

The BVBL crowd claims the exodus and benefits began as soon as the resolution was passed. According to them, we didn’t even need enforcement to start seeing improvement. The numbers don’t prove a thing. Their “evidence” is anecdotal and/or contrived.

So how about we compare the second half of 2007 to the second half of 2006? Why aren’t we doing that?

kgotthardt said “The BVBL crowd claims the exodus and benefits began as soon as the resolution was passed.”

And this blog makes the counterclaim that the crime statistics went up as soon as the resolution was passed.

So what’s your point? Two wrongs make a right? I guess that’s the point you are making.

The 287(g) program was operational before the resolution was passed, was it not? I don’t think anyone wants criminals in the neighborhood. Those of you who are trying to put that kind of spin on things are simply disingenuous.

Sorry to jump back in and offer a non sequitur, but I need some help. I was posting on BVBL, and the first time it went through. When someone replied to my post and asked me to cite my sources, I tried to. The post wouldn’t go through. I tried again under another name and email address, to no avail. What’s happening?

Forgive me, I am a novice at posting. Is it possible to be blocked that quickly? Would I receive some sort of notification or not?

Thanks:)

“And this blog makes the counterclaim that the crime statistics went up as soon as the resolution was passed. So what’s your point? Two wrongs make a right? I guess that’s the point you are making.”

My point is if, as Lucky says, there is no clear way to interpret these stats, if our interpretations don’t mean anything, then CS’s don’t either.

Therefore, these stats DO say something: either way, they refute arguments and spin put out by the other side.

Fine, then the beginning of this thread should be honest instead of saying “Crime Statistics in Prince William County INCREASED for the second-half of 2007 after the passage of the “Immigration Resolution”

Apparently, on this blog, two wrongs DO make a right!

Diversity Gal,
the only way you know if you are being blocked on BVBL is to view where you comments SHOULD be from a different computer.

To all who are wondering why the thread? It is BECAUSE Corey was out there last week, espousing that the resolution caused a decrease in crime. CLEARLY, that is a disingenous statement on multiple levels.

DiversityGal,

How much time between your first post and the second?

It sound like Greg has banned your ip address or your mac address. Any dissenting opinions get that treatment. I’ve been banned a thousand times. Post your email address and I’ll see if i can provide some technical support.

“Crime Statistics in Prince William County INCREASED for the second-half of 2007 after the passage of the “Immigration Resolution”

But that part is true. Interpretation is what we are now disputing.

I would expect that the blog master blocked you because he didn’t like what you said the first time. The polite word for it is…you got put in moderation. Just a guess. It is probably nothing you have control over.

Observer, Let’s take a somewhat contrapositive outlook on the statitics. Perhaps the author of the thread meant to show that crime has not dropped as the chairman likes to proport.

Again, you can’t compare the first half of 2007 to the second half of 2007. As Lucky Duck pointed out, there are seasonal crime factors. So this comparison is meaningless. So the statement “Perhaps the author of the thread meant to show that crime has not dropped as the chairman likes to proport.” means nothing, as the comparison of statistics being made is completely meaningless. Try comparing 2nd half of 2006 to 2nd half of 2007 – and if the crime is increased, then perhaps you may have a point to make.

Let’s face it, the political support of the Immigration Resolution was centered upon the fallacious believe that there is a direct relationship between skin color and tendency to commit crimes. It was cleverly transferred to documentation status, of course, but we all know what they meant by that. They couldn’t disguise it even for 3 minutes during their Citizens’ Time speeches. The authors of the Resolution, Mike Hethmon of F.A.I.R. and Robert Duecaster of Help Save Manassas, couldn’t disguise it for a moment, in fact, Hethmon was quite open about it.

Chairman Stewart’s media campaign on behalf of F.A.I.R. and Numbers USA is designed to foment political support for the Prince William County Anti-Immigrant Experiment to spread to other jurisdictions (you do realize that is what this is, don’t you?) OF COURSE the same talking points are going to be used, regardless of the facts. The facts were never part of their talking points anyway. The truth is that immigrants, both documented and undocumented, are less likely to commit crimes than the general public.

But… Perception Is Reality… right Greg Letiecq?

“These people” are more likely to commit crimes is the centerpiece of the Anti-Immigrant Lobby’s campaign, right next to “Mexicans kind of look like Middle Eastern people but Canadians usually don’t.”

Crime statistics CAN be spun in any way. The point of this thread is not make a case for the fact that the Immigration Resolution has made it more difficult to keep this county safe; the point of this thread is to obliterate the specious argument that it has made us more safe, propagated by our immoral and inane Chairman and the Anti-Immigrant Lobby.

The interests of our Chairman and the Anti-Immigrant Lobby are one. Their agenda has become his agenda. How did this happen?

Why would our Chairman of the Board of County Supervisors care more about the future of the Anti-Immigrant Lobby than he does about the future of this county? Why would he nurture and foster a reputation for intolerance and hateful conflict for the better part of a year? Why would he go on national television to celebrate the fact that we’ve frightened families, and caused children who speak English as a 2nd language to disappear from our schools? Why does he seem bored and irritated with the priorities that concern the other Board members, you know, our strategic plan, transportation, our public image, county services that CAN’T be denied to certain undesirables?

My only guess is that he doesn’t plan to run for office again in PWC, so his ACTUAL record on education, public safety, our economy, transportation, etc. will not be an obstacle to whatever ambitions he might retain after he watches Gerry Connolly take the Congressional seat he thought was his.

Our Constitution says you have been born in the USA to run for President. Maybe we should have a rule that you have to give a sh*t about this county to be its Chairman of the Board of County Supervisors.

kghotthardt said:
““Crime Statistics in Prince William County INCREASED for the second-half of 2007 after the passage of the “Immigration Resolution”

But that part is true. Interpretation is what we are now disputing.”

No, it isn’t the interpetation we are disputing. It is that you can’t compare the 1st half of a year to the 2nd half of the year. There can be no conclusion drawn from an invalid comparison.

Then again, statistics can be made to lie. This entire thread is proof of that, when an invalid comparison is done and then all sorts of conclusions are drawn from it.

“Catching illegal immigrants has made Prince William safer, said Corey A. Stewart (R-At-Large), chairman of the board of county supervisors said. Stewart also said the county’s policies have led to “a plummeting of the crime rate.” Police statistics show that the county’s crime rate has been declining since 2004, even as the population increased.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/09/AR2008070902173_2.html?sid=ST2008071000987&pos=

The reality is that Corey made the connection between the resolution/county policy to decrease in crime, and we are simply disputing the premise he has put out there as “fact”. Obsersever, you are missing the point. I hope this clarifies for you.

Actually, the quotes should be after the sentence “Police statistics show that the county’s crime rate has been declining since 2004, even as the population increased.” The original Washington Post article has no such quotes – but then it cleverly placed that sentence in a paragraph quoting Corey Stewart to try and make it sound to the casual reader that those words came out of his mouth. The Washington Post does this all the time when they quote people but the person doesn’t say exactly what they hoped he/she would.

Meant to say the quotes should NOT be after the sentence “Police statistics show that the county’s crime rate has been declining since 2004, even as the population increased.”

The Crime statistics do not prove the point that the BOCS Chairman was making nor do they validate the resolution as the reason that crime statistics went up after passage. The resolution didn’t pass until October 16th, 2007 and enforcement did not start until March, 2008. So the crime rates for 2007 are not valid arguments for either side.

Kgotthardt, the exodus of Hispanics did begin prior to the passage and enforcement of the resolution. It may not yet be demonstrated in hard population statistics, but ask the business owners that served primarily a Hispanic base such as Todos Market, El Portal and a host of others and they’ll tell you when business began falling off. The owner of Todos Market was quoted as saying his business fell off 20% at the end of 2007. The next school census will show us how far our Hispanic population has fallen and the drop began quickly in the fall of 2007.

Elena said “The reality is that Corey made the connection between the resolution/county policy to decrease in crime, and we are simply disputing the premise he has put out there as “fact”.”

But you are using invalid comparison of statistics to dispute it, so that means nothing. You can’t dispute something with an invalid comparision. No inference can be drawn from that comparison, one way or the other.

Actually, Lucky Duck just said what I was trying to say by saying “The Crime statistics do not prove the point that the BOCS Chairman was making nor do they validate the resolution as the reason that crime statistics went up after passage. ”

I agree.

Lucky Duck said “Kgotthardt, the exodus of Hispanics did begin prior to the passage and enforcement of the resolution.”

And that exodus may have been more due to economic factors than anything else.

Rod, love that quote: “If you build a community on hate, you willl hate the community you build.”

Did you make that up? I might want to use it somewhere.

=======================================

My father used that quote during the citizens time when there was a hearing for allowing the Day Labor site to be built in Herndon.

I’m not sure if he got it from someone else, but he gave me the impression that he came up with it.

I have to agree with An Observer and Lucky Duck on this one, both sides (Mr. Stewart and this site) are doing the same thing, using the statistics to validate a point which can’t be “proven”. Mr. Stewart used his spin to make a point and this site is using it’s own spin (I’m starting to get dizzy).

By the way, I have yet to see kgotthardt’s proof that crime against Hispanics has gone up.

An Oberserver, 14. July 2008, 12:44

Lucky Duck said “Kgotthardt, the exodus of Hispanics did begin prior to the passage and enforcement of the resolution.”

And that exodus may have been more due to economic factors than anything else.

==========================================================

If that’s the case Observer why did you ever need a 4 million dollar resolution that is basically a redundant 287g? The County should have overcrowding, noise, refuse and parking legislation already in place, The Police with 287g would have been able to pass criminal illegal immigrants to ICE ( who’s own ability to keep to their promises is questionable at best).

All these things would have been the natural course of law and order, but Corey with the help of HSM has decided to milk the tax payers of PWC for a 4 million dollar self-promotion campaign.

And in the mean time it looks like the Immigrants were leaving the area anyway…

hello – probably the only really valid comparison would be comparing a time period after the resolution went in effect to the same time period before the resolution went into effect, and also comparing the ratio of crimes by hispanics against the total crimes. Otherwise, it is a fairly useless comparison.

Anyway, as you point out this site felt the need to spin to counteract Corey Stewart’s spin!

There’s also the old saying “statistics lie”. Basically, statistics can be made by either side to work in their favor, and this is an excellent case of that. Both sides are using meaningless statistical comparisons to support their arguments.

Rod said “If that’s the case Observer why did you ever need a 4 million dollar resolution that is basically a redundant 287g?”

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, Rod.

Maybe Corey was talking about the 860 illegal aliens that have had detainers put on them at the ADC. I haven’t heard him talk about any of this so I really don’t know. It used to be that less than 200 hundred illegal aliens per year had ICE detainers at the jail

Observer, please go to back to the post of WHWN 14. July 2008, 12:34 , I am simply stating that what Corey espoused was based on an invalid premise. But beyond that, logic dictates that if crime were decreasing since 2004, while our population was increasing, the resolution had no bearing on crime decreasing. That is actually what Lucky Duck is pointing out. We are NOT saying the resolution is why crime is increasing. We are saying,once again, that what Corey was saying, crime decreased after the resolution, was not based on the facts.

Mackie,

I posted at 11:09 this morning, and tried again at about 11:20 (rough estimate). The email address I used for that site was imape4apes@yahoo.com . I used the same “Diversity Gal” handle, which probably quickly pegged me as a liberal on bvbl.

It is VERY frustrating, because my post was quite civil in my opinion (under MORE MAIL on bvbl). I was responding to the claim that anyone would be hard pressed to come up with technological/scientific advances made by people Latinos or Hispanics. I did a little research and listed them, as long as I could find some other sites that corroborated.

Some dude challenged my claim that Mayans invented the number zero, and I sought to respond by citing my sources and clarifying that they were the first to use it as a stand-alone number and not as a place holder. In any case, they were YEARS ahead of Europeans. I also had some great instances of more modern Mexican and Salvadoran scientists who made global contributions, but I guess I have been blocked. Oh well!

Welcome to the club Diversity Gal

Observer, that isn’t how I read the paragraph at all. I read the second sentence as a contradiction to what Corey had just stated.

An Oberserver, I can’t decide whether your name is a misspelling or a play on “waiter, waiter” since we did discuss waitstaff when we discussed whether people who were paid in cash under-reported their income.

Would it be fair to compare crime statistics for a calendar year beginning in January to the previous calendar years? If so, wouldn’t you say that crime has continued to go down for the past four years. Our illustrious chairman would therefore be correct to say that crime had fallen but spin, spin, spinning the reason for that fall as well as omitting prior years’ data. The more recent data posted in the subject line may prove him wrong if that trend continues.

Observer,
I am not using invalid data by the PWC police department. The facts, crime has been decreasing steadily since 2004, Corey says crime is deceasing since the resolution, well, that is true, but the REALITY is that is has been decreasing for several years. The reason admin pointed out the increase, was to demonstrate that crime in the latter part of 2007, even if Corey were trying to prove a connection to the resolution, had NOT decreased but slightly increased. She is not claiming to know why it increased.

Diversity Gal,

links on BVBL “several in a row”, may throw your comments into moderation, for spam checking on BVBL. Try posting you comments first, then the links. If your comments go in and the links do not, until much later, then you have exceeded the limits of the spam filter.
Greg typically only blocks people who have become obnoxious or abusive to others or himself on the blog. I have said many things calling him on bad concepts and political disagreements, but have done so honestly and without malice, he has never banned me, even thogh I oppose many of his comments especially if and when they go beyond “law enforcement” on “illegals”. If I ever get a hint that he is attacking ethnic groups rather than just law breakers, I oppose his comments strongly. It is the posters rather than greg that are the hateful ones. Most of his personal comments are simply about the need to enforce the law and protect the community. Again he has never banned these balanced and opposing views, when they are respectful of the individual and non-violent or abusive, as does Alanna here. It is the “posters” on these blogs that give the blog a “bad” reputation. Personally I would ban anyone’s comments that are advocating violence toward or hatred of any ethnic, gender, religious, racial group as an illegal “free speech” hate crime. However the constitution even protects “hateful” free speech and “hate groups” freedom to associate. It does not however give them “freedom from the law” and “freedom to operate unlawfully”, to suppress, oppress, or exclude others obased on race, gender, religion or ethnic groups. It is a fine line.

Does everyone agree that none of the present statistics bear out that crime has decreased since the resolution was enacted, on either July 10, 2007, October 16, 2007, March 3, 2007 or April 29, 2007 when a much less pungent resolution was finally funded?

The Chairman needs to stop saying that crime has decreased because of his resolution. He has no valid statitics to back up his statement.

Right, Moon-howler, he has no data to back up a causal relationship…although he is developing a caustic one with many county residents.

Crimes reported are based on the FBI’s hierarchy of most serious crime. That is called Uniform Crime Reporting. Therefore not all crimes are reported through Uniform Crime Reporting, which is what this PD uses. For example, two car jackers could assault and ultimately kill one person while stealing the car. Only the homicide is what you will see under this form of reporting.

As to the crime rate, that is based on population. Now, our population trends are slowing down and might even be lower than actually projected a few years ago which could drive a crime rate up!

Good luck those that want to pick this apart. Suggest you go to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting site on their web pages. Those numbers appear there are well. It will help.

Looking at the PWC’s fiscal documents, the number of major crimes in PWC in Fis Yr ‘05 was 8,070, 8,026 in ‘06 and 7,566 in ‘07. Now I am no analytical genius but what part of decline are we not seeing here folks???? These are the numbers reported to the FBI. Now the criminal arrests were 12,759 in FY04, 12,761, 13,374 and 13,979 in ‘05, ‘06 and ‘07.

That was even before others decided to try to run the police department. Hmmmmm….. maybe they knew what they were doing all along…………….?????

I wonder if the crime rate is not being artificially manipulated by the policy of the police department to choose what is and is not “classified” as a crime. I believe many of the “laws” on the books are not being enforced in PWC, and therefore crime rates “officially reported” have been going down, due to lack of reporting and lack of enforcement, therefore, no arrests = no crime stats, and that makes the Chief look good. I had wondered why the Chief was so opposed to enforceing the 287g law (go figure, a policemen opposed to law enforcement!), and finally realized it is in his personal best interest to “fight against” 287g law enforcement, and enforcement of other laws, as it shows he has been doing a good “job”. However when the “policy” discourages law enforcement, the crime “reporting” rates go down. When the “policy” encourages law enforcement of “ALL” laws, the crime “reporting” rate goes up initially, until it catches up with the ACTUAL number of criminals commiting crimes, that previously because of policy and lack of resources was not acted on or enforced or reported. I would EXPECT an increase initially in the crime rate, when a resolution to “enforce” law takes effect, as it increases the number of arrests made, that were previously NOT MADE and increases the number of criminals “sought”, officers deployed, people pulled over, citizens responded to, and “individuals” indentified as “criminals” rather than ignored. An unresponded and un-reported burglery or theft, and lack of arrest does not constitute a “crime” in these statistics. The people know better what is happening in their communities, in terms of crime increase or decrease, better and more “community aware” than any statistic reported by a police department.

Thanks, Michael.

Your comments were helpful. I was not able to get through by citing any sources directly, so I had to just give the names of the sites. At least I got through!

I have to disagree with what you say about just the posters being hateful. In looking at bvbl, there are many topics and graphics that seem to be quite hateful on his site. Plus, I find that putting awful rumors out there about the public school system in Manassas City quite malicious.

Michael

Then it is a national scam. UCR reporting is collected by the FBI and NIBRS by the State Police. Both have auditors and both note and examine trends. That would have to be a large conspiracy, but then again, it appears the whole illegal thing is one giant conspiracy against the good folks in Manassas and only Corey and Greg have noticed.

Juturna,

That was even before others decided to try to run the police department. Hmmmmm….. maybe they knew what they were doing all along…………….?????

Good one! I think some fail to realize our county is 277 years old and got by just fine, before those wanting to “high jack” our county arrived. imho

I guess we could say “What part of decline don’t you understand”

Sorry Michael, that is just frustration talking. Is there no end to the disbelief of facts presented? It just exhausts me and I cannot participate in those discussions using any part of my intellect.

True Chris, true. Both Corey and Greg are newcomers and aren’t they both immigrants or their spouses are or something??? Now we have published and FBI accepted data that is being considered not believable. I recommend conspiracytheory.com for those interested……

They’re just a couple carpetbaggers here to dump more baggage on our already burdened economy.

I have an image from Roots of men in horrible plaid suits…….. Thanks for the laugh Censored.

Good point Jutura, that the number of criminal “arrests” is going up. It should if laws are being enforced. Also a good point that the number of crimes reported is a “rate”, based on population, if a population goes down it CAN cause a “rate” to go up or down. It simply is a reflection of how many “individual” criminals are deciding to commit more or less crime, are they feeling more angry, more desperate, freer to operate, becoming more or less bold and aggressive, are there more or less policemen deployed over a 24 hour period, has the funding increased or decreased, has the policy of enforcement been emphasised more, have the policemen themselves been more encouraged to arrest? These are the factors that most affect “crime” numbers. In general when you enforce the law, when you have not previously been, the rates will climb, until the “deterrant” effect kicks in, then they start to go down, until you get a lax in law enforcement, initially not reporting, un-reported crimes, until criminals feel they can operate more boldly, then the reported rate goes up again as more criminals feel freer to commit crime. A LOT depends on “policy” and the ethics (or fear level) of “individuals”. Increasing the fear of arrest should eventually make the long term rates go down, unless you are simply not enforcing the law, which can make the rates go down as well, until the community clamors for more committed and aggressive law enforcement. You see this cycle a lot in GANG war crime rates in inner cities and the interdepency on increased enforcement, focus and “moving/mobile” criminal “individuals” as population densities.

Observer, the Washington Post was only doing what all reporters and county officials do, anyone who is too polite to call Chairman Stewart a liar. First they either quote or acknowledge what Chairman Stewart has said. Then, without saying “but in reality” or “contrary to the Chairman’s shameless spin,” they simply convey the information that allows any intelligent person to see that the Chairman is wrong:

“Catching illegal immigrants has made Prince William safer, said Corey A. Stewart (R-At-Large), chairman of the board of county supervisors said. Stewart also said the county’s policies have led to “a plummeting of the crime rate.” [Here is where the 'Contrary to the Chairman's shameless spin' would go.]Police statistics show that the county’s crime rate has been declining since 2004, even as the population increased.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/09/AR2008070902173_2.html?sid=ST2008071000987&pos=

Michael, do you have any idea how stupid it would be to manipulate crime statistics “by policy”?? Are you aware that policies are subjected to review by the BOCS as well as being FOIA’d by citizens? Why would anyone take the chance in doing something as dumb as that?

The statistics are subjected by guidelines set up by the FBI, its either a crime or it is not. There are some differences in State Codes as the classification of specific crimes (ex. “Attempted Murder” in Virginia is actually charged as “Malicious Wounding”) but the FBI guidelines are broad enought to incorporate that but if it is reported by a citizen or responded to by the police department, its counted.

I defy you to FOIA any crime stat submitted by Chief Deane and find doctoring, misreporting or under reporting.

Under the Resolution that was enacted (both times) it would have involved the enforcemention of some aspect of immigration laws or reporting illegal aliens to ICE. Neither of these instances fit into any category of the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports. So they won’t make any difference in the crime rate.

If you are talking about arrests under the 287(G) program at the jail, that is not enforced by the police department but by ICE.

Know your facts or have your facts before you accuse anyone of anything.

Censored, I agree with you but seeing that “Carpetbagger” is an old-fashioned term, can you provide us with a historical context and compare it to the ways in which Chairman Stewart and John Stirrup have used and abused this county?

Jutura, the facts as reported are factual. I just think there are other factors that drive those “facts”, and thus dilutes any “cause and effect” fact you can derive from the statistics. In this grain I agree with others that the statistics are a bad way to “prove” crime increase or decrease as a “result” of any specific action taken, except maybe by the police themselves (”policy and resources”) or the criminals themselves (boldness, fear and level of aggressiveness).

I simply want LAW ENFORCED, no matter what. That includes 287g, which is also law enforcement. To deny law enforcement is to invite community decline into a criminal society. I know of no community where the logic “deny law enforcement and your community will become lawful” is true.

That is the ideology I oppose, sympathizing with and encouraging law breakers and criminals by not enforceing law equally on everyone the same, and in the totality of the defined law.

Lucky duck, I am not accusing anyone, simply asking a question, Why would a Chief of Police fight law enforcement of ANY law? What reason would that person have for changing “policy” which we know he has the right and duty to do, in either a direction to enforce more law or a direction to enforce less law, by giving guidance to his officers to ignore some things and focus on others. These policies are reflected in the numbers reported, but do not accurately represent ALL crime (reported and un-reported). There is a weak cause and effect argument here and I am challenging it.

WHWN, in very general terms, they descended on our county from the north (in Letiecq’s case) and the east (that’s stretching it, I know) in Stewart’s and Stirrup’s case to take polictical advantage in an area in which they had no connection. Tee hee – there’s also the Republican party element, although I’m sure there are plenty of Republicans who would like to see them pack up their bags.

WHWN, as for the abuse – there’s the assault on our tax dollars, ruining our good name, and creating havoc in our community.

If 287g is not reported in the above statistics, and only reported to ICE, then why are we making any argument as to “cause and effect” that “crime” has increased or decreased as a result of passing a resolution to ENFORCE 287g. If these crime stats don’t report the “effect” of increased emphasis on 287g, then how can the implication be that enforcing 287g has increased or decreased crime, be made as a cause and effect.

I simply feel better knowing that an ENFORCEMENT of 287g which was not happening before, simply will result in a INCREASE in enforcement of 287g, and that more “illegal” alien criminals will be deported, when previously they were not. That is the ONLY “statistic” I am interested in, other than we continue to ENFORCE ALL LAWS equally on everyone the same.

I did not have a favorable impression of “Carpetbaggers” before this all happened, but I have a much more negative impression now. I’ve learned that the negative impact of Carpetbaggers like Chairman Stewart is all the worse when you get down to the local level.

At the BOCS level, a Chairman has nothing BUT local issues to deal with. Yet Chairman Stewart was only too happy to take on a federal issue on behalf of F.A.I.R. and Numbers USA knowing that their expensive media team could get him on Fox “News” and the Lou Dobbs Comedy Hour. Four million dollars and a trashed reputation, hardly a fair trade for the public relations firm Corey Stewart should have hired for HIMSELF.

All this talk of crime statistics is just the mirror image of Numbers USA and the Anti-Immigrant websites spreading misinformation. Only in this case, we have an elected official who, sadly, represents us doing the bidding of the Anti-Immigrant Lobby.

If you catch a criminal “illegal” alien (even 1), using law enforcement that you previously had a “policy” to ignore, and you deport that person, you have immediately made your community “SAFER” than it was before that law enforcement was made into policy. The “individual” is no longer in the country to commit more crimes, and we all know criminals never stop at 1 crime.

Corey is right, when you deport a “criminal” your community is “SAFER”. Any dummy can see the truth in that statement and you don’t need statistics to prove it is “wrong”.

I am surrounded by people who can’t get to basic facts, because they are too busy trying to defend their own racial, gender, religious, or ethnic group, and trashing politicians for “Enforceing The LAW”. What kind of “just” lawlessness supporting community logic is that?

Corey is right, when you deport a “criminal” your community is “SAFER”. Any dummy can see the truth in that statement and you don’t need statistics to prove it is “wrong”.

Well too bad we can’t deport them all. Now we don’t have room for the prescription abuser, the peeping tom which ususally escalates to sexual offenses. We let them go so we can keep the illegal speeder keeping our fingers crossed that someday ICE will actually pick him up. Meanwhile the presecription abuser is now stealing items from your car and the peeping tom has now escalated to following little girls.

Maybe that’s why Chief’s of Police make jusdgement calls about erradication of crimes and identifying the worst of the lot as opposed to self promoting passing through politicians…..

Put that into your fact book and let me know the outcome……

WHWN, I think Stewart knew he’d never achieve any substantial political office in Fairfax so he descended on us. I think he’s in way over his head here in PWC – his might have campaigned effectively but he’s got more bluster than brains when it comes to leading in day-to-day matters, which, let’s face it, are what concern local governments…if some loony group doesn’t get us involved in federal issues. As you’ve pointed out, he’s used our money to try to maneuver into a higher office. The longer he stays here and fails, the longer the rest of Virginia is spared his machinations.

We already had 287G in the jails, Michael. Criminal aliens were already being deported.

The only reason why there is any controversy about the whole F.A.I.R. / Help Save Manasass Immigration Resolution was that either deliberately, or due to prejudice, or due to pure stupidity, people began to confuse criminal illegal aliens with the non-Caucasian people who’s papers are not in order.

They are very different things. And their impact on public safety is very different.

Furthermore, if you mandate that tremendous amounts of time and resources be siphoned away from making our community safer in order to chase down people who’s papers are not in order, you are making our county less safe! If anything, that is what these numbers seem to suggest (but as someone else pointed out, the number of unsolved crimes also rises when ethnic communities no longer feel trust in their Poilce Department, another side effect of this ill-conceived Anti-Immigrant Law).

And, there are still more fact and details that you ought to know before making such a lame argument as you have above. For instance, we we have deported criminal illegal aliens, they have often returned immediately … much faster than we would have seen them back on the streets if they’d served their sentences.

So while “deport them all” might get your rocks off, the fact is that deportation is not the end game when it comes to dealing with criminal illegal aliens. They come back.

The “Rule of Mob” Resolution, originally titled the Immigration Resolution, was not at all focused on criminal illegal aliens … even though any crime committed by a Hispanic or an undocumented person was used to justify it. The “Rule of Mob” Resolution was designed as a wide net, mandating Officers to ask any person they come into contact with to prove they are in the country legally.

If you had just an ounce of common sense, and you DIDN’T have any prejudice toward dark skinned people or even toward people who’s papers are not in order, would you really want to see our Police Officers spending 90 percent of their time shaking down every day citizens, even the ones who are obviously here legally, rather than going after people who commit actual crimes?

Take the race element out of it. Why would you want the Police to sacrifice their pursuit of violent criminals in order to focus on misdemeanors?

Michael, no policy was “encouraged not to be enforced” and Federal law prohibits a policy that prevents local or state law enforcement officers from contacting the Federal Government about ANY information on illegal aliens. That is what I am disputing with you, that any numbers are fixed or underreported or anyone was told not to enforce any law.

But the resolution was NOT the 287(G) program, we already had that when this resolution was introduced, so tell me what the logic was there Michael? If all you wanted was the 287(G) program, why the resolution? 287(G) was already in place in the jail. Except for the $4 million we spent, tell me, what is the difference for you?

Michael, I don’t think you understand the 287(g) program. Many people don’t. Why? Because our leaders and their ‘handlers’ tried to obfuscate matters as much as possible to get the political agenda they wanted pushed through.

The 287(g) program was in effect before the July 10th ‘Immigaration Resolution’ was passed. Please stop saying that people here do not support law and order. We do.

Are you intentionally insulting us or do you just not know any better?

MH,
“HANDLERS”, hahaha!! Sounds like we need a “lion tamer” too.

Jorge Pollo,

I would just settle for deporting the puppeteer. That would take care of the major ‘handler.’

Actually, I think of Censored as our resident lion tamer.

I am back to laughing at the carpetbaggers from Roots…… it’s easier and at this point, makes more sense.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/07/13/Virginia_Latinos_seen_as_swing_vote/UPI-56081215999300/

Mackie,

Would I be considered jaded if I suggested that perhaps the chairman and his handler don’t really give a rat’s ass about immigration at all? Perhaps all this has been the part of a bigger picture. Perhaps this was a way to block a democratic president. Stranger things have happened.

After all, look at various forms of marriage/anti gay amendments appearing as referrendums last presidential election. Right out of the old Karl Rove play book.

Lots and lots of perhapses out there.

Back to things that make you want to go hmmmmmmm…..

Michael, are you willing to impugn the reputation of an entire professional police department to attempt make your point? I am not even sure what your point is.

Can you document that Chief Deane was opposed to the 287(g) program at the ADC? I sure don’t recall him voicing an opinion like you have stated.

You are aware that no one on this blog, to my knowledge, is opposing the 287(g) program at the ADC? If they are, they can talk privately with you about it. Most, if not all of us regulars on anti support our local police department and Chief Deane. If you want to talk smack about either the department or the Chief, I suggest you go on over to the blog with the dark screen. You will find more support there. Here you will have none.

I would venture to say that the main reason you see the decrease in crime over the past few years is because of the professionalism of the Prince William County Police Department under the guidance and directorship of Chief Deane. He has implemented policies that curb crime in suburban areas such as Prince William County and has national recognition for his efforts. It doesn’t really get much better than that unless some busy body like the chairman of the BOCS decides he knows more than the professionals hired to do that job at hand and tries to butt in. Fortunately, the citizens of Prince William are not going to allow that to happen.

I think that immigration was to be the issue du jour for the upcoming election. It had all the juicy elements…the easy target in “the other”, an outlet for fear and hatred, someone dipping his/her hand into “our” pocketbook, national security. And then that damn John McCain had to win the party nomination and spoil it all! Now people might look at the war, the mortgage/gas/credit card/energy price fiascos. The horror!

Diversity girl got posted on the place of the black screen, but she is definitely in the belly of the beast.

MH,

Yes, the republican party started this fight ultimately to help with the elections in november. However, they made a big mistake when they thought they could keep it under control. They didn’t count on the Tom Tancredos and Lou Dobbs adding dynamite to the fire. Now this fight is spinning out of control and many latinos are feeling under siege. They worry about their kids’ futures, their family members, their safety, etc. Tom Tancredo has cut off the republican party’s nose to spite its face. Not a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6a4ZwB4NOE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIt8_r2zQ5Q

Michael,
I “double dog” dare you, to respond to Lucky Duck’s post at , 14. July 2008, 15:01 and NOT fall back to your usual discourse like this:

“I am surrounded by people who can’t get to basic facts, because they are too busy trying to defend their own racial, gender, religious, or ethnic group, and trashing politicians for “Enforceing The LAW”. What kind of “just” lawlessness supporting community logic is that?”

Cat Scratch,

Don’t worry about me:) I can find my way out. I’m a tough chick!

Censored and Mackie, I have it on good authority that your hmmmmm theory is correct … namely that the immigration “issue” was designed to distract voters from the economic and foreign policy disasters they currently associate with the Bush Administration. Once Bush took the podium and insulted anyone who opposed McCain/Kennedy as predjudiced, it gave GOP strategists the perfect “issue” to seperate the party from Bush. But to do that, they would have to come dangerously close to a Prince William County-like disaster.

But before the economic consequences of PWC’s Immigration Resolution became apparent, Immigration seemed like the silver bullet to “buck a Democratic tide” as Chairman Stewart said in his election victory speech last November 6. Stirrup meanwhile had said many times that he expected Immigration to dominate the 2008 election. He isn’t saying that now.

Far be it from me to downplay the role of John McCain in defeating the Anti-Immigrant Lobby, but all he really did was stick to the same principles that guided him to write the McCain/Kennedy Bill. You could say, “Heck, he couldn’t very well have run away from a bill that had his name on it.” But really he was just following his sense of right and wrong, and his committment to sound policy. The fact that we find ourselves celebrating when a Republican politition stays true to such principles says a lot about how far the party has fallen. If McCain loses it will be because the party crumbled to pieces under Bush; not because McCain is old or doesn’t understand the economy or whatever.
We should be thankful that a candidate with integrity was even available for us to choose in the GOP field. But we should not be surprised that, given that choice, voters in the national party opted for McCain and rejected the morally bankrupt candidates like Romney and Tancredo who bent over for the Anti-Immigrant Lobby. (Actually, Tancredo is a bigot who was always ready to be the Anti-Immigrant Lobby’s Bitch, while Romney is an empty suit who will say anything to get elected, but both disgust me.)

In sum, while we should be thankful McCain is neither a bigot nor an ideological rag doll, we should also be thankful Republican voters were able to recognize that.

On the local level, that means we should look to leaders like Marty Nohe and Mike May and reject ideological rag dolls and political opportunists who have no moral objection to pandering to the likes of F.A.I.R and Help Save Manassas.

“Kgotthardt, the exodus of Hispanics did begin prior to the passage and enforcement of the resolution.” Let me clarify: the anti-immigrant crowd would have you believe this exodus caused crime to decrease. In other words, since “these people” are considered criminals, the exodus caused criminals to leave. That has been the argument from CS and HIS minions.

“If you catch a criminal “illegal” alien (even 1), using law enforcement that you previously had a “policy” to ignore, and you deport that person, you have immediately made your community “SAFER” than it was before that law enforcement was made into policy. The “individual” is no longer in the country to commit more crimes, and we all know criminals never stop at 1 crime.”

LOL! Using that logic, we can say, “If we deport at least one politician, we have saved ourselves because that’s one less person here to lie and waste our tax dollars. Lies and misappropriation of our taxes never stop at 1.” Hell, if we deport them ALL, we might even be able to come up with solutions ourselves!

KG,

Where is Bob Wills? Sounds like something he would agree with

Team Bob

WHWN,

I think it’s time for Corey Stewart to stop being Gospel Greg’s “ideological rag doll.”

All he has to do is say, “I can’t do it anymore, Greg. I’m going to be my own man. I have to put the county’s interests first, that’s why they elected me.” HOW HARD IS THAT???

How about we start a petition to show support for our Chairman, and give him the political cover he needs fortify his own spine? I’m tired of watching as Corey Stewart plays the part of a rag doll for Gospel Greg and the clowns from FAIR to have their way with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhnjfdTDLsw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKFrovGdI8U&feature=related

Sorry, I am just having fun

Does anyone here ever worry about something like this happening to them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ2R6nGR9-g&feature=related

thats a lot of posts for 6 whole months (more or less) of crime stats. those are typically the worst parts of the year for crime anyway. want a good baseline? look at other years and those months. you’ll see they are likely all high, depending on who/what/where you get your stats from.

didnt one of the blog people post that crime is going down? then the blog owners post this saying it’s going up? I think someone needs to remember which “facts” they are posting. the resolution was a farce for sure, the 287g however has some teeth and is in fact removing undesirable criminals from our community. the crappy economy is removing people from our community, better someone elses than ours.

Elvis, I saw your comments on THE OTHER. Since we have the equivalent of an 8th grade education, why do you bother?

The second half of 2007 went up. Overall, trend analysis (try to grasp that) shows a decline.

KG, we could be the first local jurisdiction to sell our elected leader on Ebay?!! I am sure Stewart would love the publicity.

Juturna,

It has been attempted before, along with the half eaten grilled cheese sandwich.

forgot link

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/6330/7354/man-sells-his-life-ebay.phtml

“KG, we could be the first local jurisdiction to sell our elected leader on Ebay?!! I am sure Stewart would love the publicity.”

He would, but no one would bid.

Im totally willing to buy into these stats, however they are not stated on the source. (either that or it was taken out of the PDF?). The 2007 Crime Statistic Report does not list anything by month. Did I miss this on the document? Please help!

So based on this info, if ALL the illegals left PWC we would have a HUGE crime wave, and thereby if we had thousands more moving back in crime would plummet. Hardly make sense, and you forgot to list fraud and identity theft.

Kind of flawed logic there pal but you are correct only Major crimes (Part 1) reported have beeb discussed. However arrest data includes Part 2 which would include fraud and identity thef. Those numbers increased.

The source provided doesn’t have monthly data. Where did these stats come from?

I believe they came from PWCPD, Hello.

@anon-100, 14. July 2008, 13:14
The latest video on the new thread should clarify what Corey was referring to when he said that crime was down by 20% since the resolution passed. I believe this is a direct quote: “Our crime rate plummeted by about 20% in the past year. “

Where did he get those statistics? Perhaps he has a different source than the PWCPD.

He needs to be honest. It is that simple. He needs to separate the 287(g) program from the Resolution. It pre-dated the Immigration Resolution approved July 10, 2007.

Corey needs to stop taking claim for a resolution that has basically become toothless and expensive. He needs to come clean with the public and admit that the 287(g) at the ADC is not part of the resolution.

“Where did these stats come from?”

Alanna talked to the Police Department.

Hello

Click on the “crime statistics report” at the top of the thread. It takes you to the PD’s Crime Report located on their website.

Lucky Duck, (my response to elena’ double dog dare( IIt is my understanding that 287g was being “ignored” as an op-in program, by the Chief of Police. None of his officers were checking illegal status during traffic stops and reporting them to ICE. He had policy that he would not support the “opt-in”. The board made it official that he was to be over-ridden, and the policy mandated to cooperate with the federal 287g program as county policy set by the BOD if the police chief would not support it. The additional resolution efforts were to remove “illegal” aliens, not just criminal aliens, from our neighborhoods by our local police by reporting them to ICE (I also advocate for that), and to remove the payment of taxpayer services to people who are not legally entitled to them as a result of their “ilegal” status. (something I also support). None of these issues have anything to do with race, gender, religion or ethnic group, and only have to do with “illegal” and “legal” behavior. I do not support “illegal” behavior in any form. I simply want the existing law enforced, regardless of nationality.

I never have and never will support policy that will remove services from people who are legally entitled to them as a result of their “legal” status. I do support removing all illegal alien criminals and support removing all “illegal” lawbreakers, and support welcoming all “legal” non-lawbreakers according to the rules and laws of our nation to allow a sustainable and controlled immigration process.

Why would anyone think illegal behavior and lawnessness is GOOD for our community, unless they think only in terms of supporting their specific racial, gender, religious, or ethnic group AT ALL COST, including supporting crime and lawlessness.

There are many communities who have “elected” to not support the 287g program. If they can elect to not support it, politicians and communities can “elect” to have it enforced. That is what happened in PWC. It needs to happen at the state level next, other counties next, especially since the current “governor”, does not “elect” to have the state police support 287g, which is to require law enforcement to report criminal illegal aliends to ICE for deportation, rather that keep them in our communities where they wil commit future crimes again, and again, and again…

To not support such an ANTI-CRIME program is lunacy, inviting even more crime as a result of failure of law enforcement to enforce existing law.

Michael, 287(G) cannot be ignored by the police department because it is located at the jail. So anyone the police bring to the jail will/must be checked by jail employees for residency, the police department has no say in that – so 287(G) was not being ignored.

There simply was no “op-in” by the police, the jail runs the program so there was no choice in participating or not by the police department. They had to bring their prisoners to the jail and they were checked by mandated jail policy.

As for the resolution having the police removing illegal aliens (as opposed to “criminal” illegal aliens), what the officers do is submit a form to ICE detailing the illegal alien’s information and location. I don’t know of one illegal that has been picked up by ICE after the information has been passed on to them. The officers DO NOT take the person into physical custody for being illegal. Never have, never will. They do not have legal authority to do so.

Any action in which the officers do take an illegal alien into physical custody and hence, they are brought to the jail (such as driving without a license), they would have done that anyway before the resolution and have been doing it for the thirty eight year life of the department.

The only people in the department that have been developed as a result of the resolution are the members of the Criminal Alien Unit. They have ICE powers. However, they, by mandate, focus on the “worst of the worst” criminal illegal aliens, who would have been discovered and reported to ICE by the 287(G) program at the jail anyway. So you are back to square one – the 287(G) program at the jail.

So Michael, I once again ask you, what did you get for your $4 million that you didn’t already have?

I would say that Lucky Duck has the final word on the above question:

what did you get for your $4 million that you didn’t already have?

I am guessing the answer is nothing. Lucky Duck, you rule the day.

So the crime rate was steadily decreasing for several years and then increased in the second half of 2007.

Lucky Duck”

What we got from the resolution and the $4 Million was spent on the new officers to support 287g, was also increased capacity to expand the numbers processed of the “worst of the worst”, to the “not as bad as the worst, but deport them anyway”. In addition we got “policy” that over-rode the “mandate” to just check the “illegal” status of only the worst of the worst, to more than just the worst of the worst, and to “require officers to report “illegal” aliens to ICE. That report was not “mandated” before, and was under the “mandated” version of the resolution. Due to the political activities of those opposed to the resolution, it is now up to the “discretion of the officer based on probable cause”, which is different than the mandatory checking of “illegal” status (at all encounters or stopping of individuals with the police as a result of any suspicion of lawbreaking regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic group”.) It is the actions of those opposed to the resolution who are “wasting” $4 million”. If the resolution had passed in its “mandatory” version, we would have gotton more reporting of “illegals” to ICE and an increase in capacity to deport more “illegals” to the limit of available manpower that ICE can take them. I personally favor the police to have the authority to take any “illegal” into custody, as “illegal” is a law, like many other laws that should be enforceable at all levels of law enforcement. I will continue to support community efforts to have this done by our local police, and state police until it happens and federal capacity for ICE to take them and deport them is increased.