AntiBVBL

Nice,

they give that jerk yet another stay from tearing down his wall. They need to ensure that Fernandez does a little jail time for his ignorance. He apparently has no respect for the laws of this nation and deserves anything they throw at him for that ugly monstrosity of a sign. His ignorant point has been made, if he’s trying to show the world how stupid he is he can now tear down the sign, otherwise the city will do it for him.

talking about a person who is un-american!!!!

Check out this great article by Nick Miroff about the Liberty Wall saga. This reporter always nails his stories.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/01/AR2008070102461.html

Elvis, and you’re a lawyer? Are you sure you’re not Gospel Greg? Ever hear of due process?

Who knows, this one might just end up going to the Supreme Court. Stay tuned.

2 great Civil War battles, the Bobbits, what next?

You keep forgetting diving donkeys at the fair.

Do you know why it has been postponed? I didn’t understand that.

WOW! Just read the Post article!

“The new sign, Fernandez said, would feature painted murals and captions depicting the history of American racial injustice.”

This is a great idea! What better way to depict history than through real art? Art might depict things we don’t always want to see, but it’s a medium more effective and relative to Old Town.

I hope Mr. Fernandez includes in his mural the struggles of African Americans, Asians, Italian, Middle Easterners and Irish who have had similar experiences throughout history. We are one!

If Mr. Fernandez wants to expand his wall he will have to apply for a special use permit to do so. He is in an area that is zoned as residential. It will be interesting to see if he applies for his permit or again, disregards the City government by continuing to ignore them.

Juturna, you and those diving donkeys.

That sign is just dawg ugly and has an ugly message. I don’t care who is saying it, hate speech is hate speech. It is time for the sign to come down. We all need to move on.
Ruff Woof.

Perhaps Mr. Fernandez can try out his wall concept south of the U.S. border, where they are so kind to immigrants who enter over their southeastern border. He could call it a history of Mexican racial injustice. Wonder how long before his body would be discovered?

kgotthardt, 3. July 2008, 20:29

This is a great idea! What better way to depict history than through real art? Art might depict things we don’t always want to see, but it’s a medium more effective and relative to Old Town.

I hope Mr. Fernandez includes in his mural the struggles of African Americans, Asians, Italian, Middle Easterners and Irish who have had similar experiences throughout history. We are one!

How are we “one” when the intent is separation?

“We are one” flies in the face of the argument among several here who feel it is racist to expect immigrants to assimilate, that it is a “salad bowl” and not a “melting pot.” So many contradictions.

I don’t think the intent IS separation. I think it’s a statement. We all make statements. Immigrants and minorities who have suffered in this country and county have gone through similar experiences, and the Liberty Wall pretty much has said that.

The Liberty Wall, for better or for worse, shows that history is repeating itself here and it’s not what we should be doing. The sign might be ugly right now, but it can become something even larger, a tourist attraction people will come HERE to see because it shows the human struggle, the strength we all can have, and the power of free speech.

Mr. F. has the chance to move from making an angry statement within the county to making a global statement worthy of national and international attention. Art is a powerful tool. I’d love to see him do it!

Emma, I mean though we are of different cultures, we are one human race. We struggle. We can overcome.

Bull. Mr. Fernandez doesn’t even live in the City of Manassas. He is more than welcome to bring his structure elsewhere–perhaps in your neighborhood, kg? It is a blatant zoning violation, and he is being given preferential treatment because of his race. It’s not just a sign, it’s the remaining wall of a home that suspiciously burned down. I can’t wait to see his insolent butt thrown in jail.

When the sign had a more nicely worded message and nicer lettering, no one complained. It was mostly Gandhi and Martin Luther King quotes as I recall. If indeed he ends up getting the permit to do a monument to struggles for racial equality, I can’t see how the community would object. The Civil War is an important part of our history in PWC. But history does not stop writing itself. Kgotthardt, that would be great if the mural included all peoples’ struggles, including all those you mentioned and also Caucasian Americans who stood up for civil rights. I think this would be a much needed compliment to all the roads and schools we have named after Confederate generals and the like.

WHWH, hope he finds a nice spot in your neighborhood. I’m sure it would fit right in.

I would WELCOME it in my neighborhood! And when the tourists show up, I will make a MINT selling Crystal Light by the cup.

Ok, great! Perhaps you could post the location of your neighborhood. I would be more than happy to lobby the City Council on your behalf when Mr. Fernandez applies for his zoning permit.

And orange Crystal Light is my personal favorite.

Kgotthardt said “I would WELCOME it in my neighborhood! And when the tourists show up, I will make a MINT selling Crystal Light by the cup.”

Take it, please, it’s yours. Just remove it from the ground, put it on a flat bed truck, have it delivered to your house and installed on your front lawn.

maybe that is why Mr. F refuses to take it down, because he is making a mint selling Crystal Light to all of the tourists showing up.

Emma, yes to orange crystal light. I like it already bottled. I have only been able to find it by the bottle at Costco. Do you know of other places? As to assimilation, I don’t think most people here think it is unreasonable to expect immigrants to assimilate. I think most people expect it to take more than a year or 2.

WHWN, I disagree that most people were willing to let the sign go when it had message 1 or message 2 on it. I think most people were angered by it. I know many people who are very sympathetic to the immigrant situtation who just see red when you mention the sign to them.

I think Mr. Fernandez is a decent man who has been very ill-advised. He stubbornly is clinging to a concept that has done a great deal to damage race relations.

Message 3 is simply unconscionable. Its is unacceptable and anything he would do in the future with that property involving a sign would not be accepted by 90% of the people of our area. You cannot spit on people and slap their faces and expect them to like it.

The city has been more than patient. What might have been cheering for David overcoming Goliath has ended up an object of loathing and scorn.

Moon-howler, you are truly one of the shining voices of common sense that keeps me coming back here. I could not have said it better. I will be in Old Town all afternoon today, and that sign will be in my face. It spits all over people who have made sacrifices that allow people like Mr. Fernandez to express himself like that without getting imprisoned or shot. He has a stunning lack of ingratitude and should find a country where he would feel less enslaved.

lack of “gratitude,” I mean. I should make some coffee…

emma,

totally agree. fernandez is animal garbage and should be sent back to the country he apparently likes better than the one he’s in. If he’s naturalized I think he should have his papers pulled and sent on his way. the guy is scum, if anything about this whole mess makes my blood burn it’s that sign and it really makes me think of hispanics in a negative way honestly whenever I look at a hispanic person I think of this sign and it’s sad that it’s so.

There goes Elvis, off on a racist tangent again. Animal garbage…Hispanics being represented by one sign? What about Native Americans? Are THEY “that sign” as well, Elvis? Am I, because I am a woman, a tampon commercial? Are you a viagra ad because you are a man? Come on. Think this through.

Elvis, you used to be so much more willing to engage in meaningful conversation. Lately, you sound like “the other.” Has someone hijacked your name? You can be angry at the sign and the choice Mr. F. has made, but please save dehumanizing, generalizing ranting for BVBL if you must have it.

I am still hoping Mr. F. will make this good. I believe he can. He has lived in the United States for a long, long time, has been a successful business person, and has raised a beautiful family. He still has time to do the right thing and bring the community together with his statement. Time will tell.

BTW, I’d put a mural on my lawn, but I live in a townhouse in Sheffield Manor. Not only is my lawn three feet by three feet, the HOA would be at my house every day because the mural wouldn’t match the cookie-cutter decor of our development. Remember, I got cited for my bird bath one year. : )

That property upon which the graffiti wall (it really is more than a “sign”) is standing happens to be in a historic district. There are far stricter rules involved for properties located in historic districts, yet Mr. Fernandez has been given a pass for nearly two years. I guarantee that if anyone else in that historic district should ignore the zoning regs as he has done, it would definitely not have taken this long for the wrath of government to descend upon them. That he now is making further demands that are actually being taken seriously is unconscionable, and further proof that, for some reason, there seems to be two sets of rules in this situation…one for him, and one for everyone else.

What would those who side with Mr. Fernandez say if the offender in this situation were, say, Greg Letiecq? Would you for one moment condone a double standard as you are doing for Mr. Fernandez? Rules are supposed to be for everyone, not selectively enforced. I believe that some of you are missing the point.

How is this a double standard? The City Council was blind-sided by the erection of the wall. It occured at a time when the DOJ was looking at the City’s definition of “family” and at a time when PWC was involved in the Immigration resolution brouhaha. The City showed judicial propriety in considering a number of issues…freedom of speech, costs to the taxpayers of any action that it would take, chances of success, requirements of the courts, etc. You need to take your complaint up with the court system since it gave Mr. F a continuance. (I guess when you have a law degree and thirty years experience in municipal law, I’ll listen to you.)

I frankly don’t care if you do listen to me, Censored, given that you seem to be so hostile. I offered my opinion for anyone to take or leave. It bothers me naught if you leave it.

Well said, Censored bybvbl!

So you have thirty years experience in municipal law? Funny how this blog attracts people from all walks of life. So many of our contributors work in fields that are directly affected by misguided government policy and destructive law enforcement policy. These are the people who saw the Duecaster Disaster coming a mile away but previously had no outlet to share their expertise, sadly for us all.

But now things are changing. And I think a lot of it is due to the people on this blog. And I’m talking about the Hate Bunnies too, who are in my view invaluable. We have just the right mix of informed and educated people vs. people who are otherwise oriented.

I suppose that’s the triumph of F.A.I.R. and Gospel Greg. Their talking points emboldened ignorant and easily swayed people who previously hadn’t known how to channel their anxiety and resentment. With a little cut and paste, Hate Bunnies and the Rick Bentley Who Has Not Thought Things Through’s of the world felt properly armed for an intellectual exchange with concerned citizens who tend to things through as a part of their job training.

It serves as a reminder that people who work in government have more responsibility in today’s world of internet technology. Bad information is easier to propagate, which means people who have good information have to join the public discourse in order to protect our democracy … even if that means learning a new trick like posting on blogs.

Kudos to all of you from the type-writer generation for learning this skill. It truly is a public service.

KGotthart, you are being unfair to Elvis. He is obviously the OPPOSITE of Viagra. Happy 4th of July everyone!

Ah, KG, so you’re an HOA nimby. That explains a lot.

AWCheney good points and welcome back! I imagine that the Manassas city government is being cautious in responding to community outcry about the sign because there is a racial element to the conflict, and no one wants to see local government offices appropriated by people with political agendas, particularly not those who have political agendas tainted by racial intolerance.

I think Gospel Greg has a lot to do with this caution. Because his blog is notorious for racist and hateful lies, and because he used the blog to stoke racial tension and the sign simply a prop for him in this regard, and because the sign was vandalized and hateful messages were left there … it really took on the feel of a racial conflict that, yes, involved free speech.

As the Washington Post article points out, the sign has been sort of like a counter-blog to Gospel Greg’s blog. As far as I know, those who were offended by Gospel Greg’s blog didn’t try to bend the law in their favor to shut the site down. Rather, they simply countered his arguments, exposed his lies, and ridiculed his tactics. Before long, they’d stolen his audience and taken away his power.

I wonder if the same could be done with regard to the sign. The message of the sign seems to be people around here behave like racists. A good way to counter that message would be NOT to behave like racists. Just a thought.

WHWN, no! I’m not a lawyer. I was refering (sp?) to the City’s attorney and any other lawyers the City has employed to examine the issues surrounding the wall (and DOJ issues). Sorry I didn’t make that clear.

WHWN, how about good people being arbitrarily accused of behaving like racists? Sweeping generalizations issuing from people, regardless which side of the debate they may reside, on a subject which tends to illicit passionate discussion anyway can, in and of itself, easily lead to passions reaching a boiling point.

It’s all reminiscient of a line from a Simpson’s episode titled “Homer: Bad Man”.
In the scene, Homer begins opening all the Krusty Klump Bar wrappers
in the Kwik-E-Mart. Apu, the store owner, responds:

“Hey, Hey, Hey! I have asked you nicely nicely not to mangle my merchandise.
You leave me no choice but to … ask you nicely again.”

Mr. Fernandez has mangled Manassas for months and the city has played the
role of Apu – that is about to change. The wheels of justice are slow to some,
but they are turning.

I wonder if the same could be done with regard to the sign. The message of the sign seems to be people around here behave like racists. A good way to counter that message would be NOT to behave like racists. Just a thought.

WHWN, I agree. The best action is to suck it up and let the issue run its legal course. Anyone who is so upset that he/she damages the sign just proves Mr. F’s point…particularly on this holiday weekend.

AWC, Some good people speak like racists and do not realize they are doing so. My opinion would not change about the sign, regardless of who owned it or erected it.

To all readers: There is an excellent explanation of what is happening with the sign over on bvbl. A former city employee has spoken up and explained how these things work and the reasoning behind some of the apparent delays. I would have snagged it but I somehow thought the person ought to have a choice about whether to post here or not…and far be from me to plant someone where they might not want to be planted.

I would suggest that everyone who is interested go and read it. It isn’t hard to find; it stands out as a voice of reason.

If GL had a similar sign, you can bet the anger and ranting would be twice as loud…..to say nothing of the kinds of trash that might collect on the property which seems to be part of the citation against the sign area.

Mr. F. has the chance to make part of history come alive and fit right in with Old Town.

I believe Mr. Fernandez has already made history come “alive.” There is a good chance this is no where near over.

While Mr. Fernandez is busy exercising his supposed rights, he has made untold enemies. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, people allow their feelings about that sign to bleed over into their feelings about hispanics in general. I am not so sure that was Mr. Fernandez’s intentions.

Kgotthardt, you do understand that MANY people who have friends of all races and who have not gotten embroiled in the immigration battle find that sign horribly offensive? Have you read it? Do you like what it says about YOU?

Hate speech is hate speech and regardless of why he says it, Mr. Fernandez is publishing hate speech against Eurpoean Americans. I happen to belong to that group and I don’t like the things his sign says about me.

Moon howler,
I see that the sign has an extreme message but if not for the Native Americans=Hispanics, the things he is saying are historic facts that could be attributed to European Americans(killing the real native americans, slavery,etc). We learn from that and we shouldn’t feel offended just don’t do it again.
Would the Germans feel bad because someone tells them that they were respoonsible of genocide (even if you were not a member of the nazi party)?. The sign is not telling us that “We” did it but we should own that part of history too. Now we should move on

The Native American argument is a sound one. 400 years is really not that long of a time in human history. Among many things, it must have been confusing to see Europeans come here from Spain, England, France, etc and declare they owned the land, and that there were borders that could not be seen: borders between different states, between different counties, between a Reservation and U.S. proper. During different wars and land grabs, those borders have jumped over people who were living in Mexico, or in French territories, turning them into foreigners on their own land.

Essentially, the primary difference between Native Americans from north of today’s invisible border and Native Americans from south of today’s invisible border is the nation that conquered them. Their blood is mixed with the colonials, and they have taken on the language of the colonials, on BOTH sides of that invisible fence.

Some of these people have not become “modernized” enough to understand why invisible borders are erected. I haven’t been able to find it in me to hate them for it. And I don’t have it in me to hate Mr. Fernandez for pointing it out.

While I had to come inside because of the rain too as WE all celebrate the 4th, it made me think of this song.

I declare a rain break

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWYRfsjBNQk

I don’t hate Mr. Fernandez for pointing it out….I dislike his sign and what it has done to further divide the cultures in this region.

We could take this entire argument to its limits and point out that many Native Americans killed each other, whether it was a tribal war on the Great Plains or on the steps on an ancient temple in Mexico as human sacrifice. I can’t think of a single ‘innocent’ culture. No one get to wear the ‘I didn’t kill for greed hat.’

Furthermore, the sign shows intense disregard for history and an understanding of the 287(g) program. It is fine to point a finger and say others are the bad guys but Mr. Fernandez needs to include his own culture when pointing out atrocities. To just assume victim mentality doesn’t paint the full picture.

Time to move on is right!

“Kgotthardt, you do understand that MANY people who have friends of all races and who have not gotten embroiled in the immigration battle find that sign horribly offensive? Have you read it? Do you like what it says about YOU?”

I do understand that, and they have the right to be offended just as you do. When I read that sign (which I have) I see rightful anger from people who feel oppressed. I am not saying I think the message is kind or useful (I think a mural could be a better expression of the history of that message). What I am saying is I understand from whence it comes.

And no, I guess I don’t feel like it is directed at me because I haven’t done bad things to the people who are represented on that wall. I fell BAD they had to go through that, but I know I didn’t do it.

I have had touches of “white guilt” I took on from angry people before, and I decided it is not a useful or earned emotion for me. In my heart of hearts, I know I love the differences in people and in cultures. I know I make dumb cultural mistakes all the time, but I know I am not mean. So I didn’t take any guilt from that sign. I did take away reminders of sadder parts of our histories, parts that we are again remided of because of the immigration fights. How many times do we have to be reminded before we start preventing hatred before it erupts?

if the mexican’s dont want to be oppressed why dont they go back to whence the came? I mean come on, we hear all the time about them bitching about their “rights” all the while illegally being in the country. we see them all the time waving their mexican and south american flags around while proclaiming their “rights” all the while crapping on the tenets of our country.

i dont feel one tinge of anything for these people, they really need to go back to their country. I dont want illegal people here, they serve no purpose but to be parasites and they count on people like KG and the blog owners to come to their defense. The only problem is they are taking advantage of you and you are too stupid to realize it.

kgotthardt,

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. After the first message I sort of had a David slaying Goliath moment. I do understand anger and I understand striking back. The second message had a pretty decent message. (The sign was still an eyesore) However, the third message to me, is offensive. It makes no exception for those of us who did to anything to harm anyone. It broadbrushes all of us European Americans.

I have no problem having a discussion about things my country has done wrong. However, I will not tolerate someone, anyone, broadbrushing all of us. And yes, unless exceptions are made, it does mean you and me.

There are many things to say…Mr. Fernandez chose the wrong things to say. In fact, I have read that sign about 20 times since I was last in Mr. Fernandez’s presence. I am actually rather sorry I didn’t go up to him and tell him to go F*** himself because that is exactly what he is saying to us.

I am mature enough to not blame the rest of the hispanic community, however.

Elvis, last time I checked the “mexican’s” [sic] you refer to were from North America (continent-wise), as are the Salvadorans, who are the largest single Latino group in the area. As for whether illegal immigrants have a purpose here, I guess they have a purpose for those who hire them. Most are not day laborers but have regular jobs. If you want to address what you see as the problem, the focus should be on the employers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLm3HMG8IhM

“I have no problem having a discussion about things my country has done wrong. However, I will not tolerate someone, anyone, broadbrushing all of us. And yes, unless exceptions are made, it does mean you and me.”

HOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLLLL…RIGHT ON

“and they count on people like KG and the blog owners to come to their defense.” My goodness, I HOPE they don’t count on me! I don’t have much to give anyone except my talking and that’s of dubious value.

Red Dawn, I’m not sure who you quoted above, but isn’t “broad brushing” the entire basis for the anti-immigrant lobby’s argument that certain undesirables don’t assimilate, won’t assimilate, won’t become citizens if they are offered the chance, grow corn in their yards, don’t learn English, and should therefore be disposed of ASAP?

I agree there is some “broad brushing” going on in Manassas, on walls and on blogs. But only one side is turning their prejudice into a political movement on a national scale. The guy with the wall sign is just protesting a ill-conceived and ill-fated law.

MH, I do know what you are saying. When I saw that sign again tonight, I thought, hmmmmmmm. The part about European Americans….yes, a broad brush but there has been teaching out there that yes, “we” are not nice people and have not been in the past. These teaching come from US, “Americans.” So it is not surprising someone would just repeat that teaching, no matter what ethnicity that person is. And as we know, the United States has perpetrated some incredible injustices as it has done good.

There’s a huge, never ending discussion among academics about this kind of thing. Some people claim all professors are “liberal” (whatever that means) and because of being “liberal”, they don’t teach respect for the United States. Supposedly, liberal professors only teach students how bad we are. I’ve heard some of this criticism of the U.S. while pursuing my own studies, but never to such an extent. I also know enough not to believe everything I hear or read. Some people accept anything, though, and as we know, that’s dangerous. So while this message might not be one we want to read or hear, it IS one being spread through education, the media, etc. but not nearly as much as some would claim. (Inside Higher Ed has dozens of stories and studies on this very topic if you are ever really interested.) The point is, this is a MAINSTREAM message we are reading, for better or for worse.

I’ve heard Native Americans speak the same way (and of course, the sign is partly authored by the tribes). There are many, many Native American tribes who are still ANGRY. Their anger has not been reconciled. I wouldn’t presume to know how to reconcile it or even where to begin, but I do know that festering anger is toxic to anyone and to any people.

In a way, I take this sign the same way I took Rev. Wright’s message (the one that doomed him in the Obama campaign)–as a strong statement wielded in anger and a history of oppression. Does that make the statement useful in this situation? No. Does it resolve anything? No. Does it create more tension? Yes. But it’s the same thing as people getting frustrated with “foreigners.” You know–”Those damn foreigners taking all our jobs.” We read and hear statements like those all the time. Are they racist? I don’t even know that I would call that a racist statement because it’s SO general. And I hear the anger there, the fear. That’s what that sign is about–anger and fear. But there isn’t any threat of violence (like we see from “the other”). There isn’t any “you people are dog turds” in the sign. It’s a silent yet blood curdling scream in the middle of Old Town. And people are screaming back.

Agree to disagree, MH. You know I still think you’re great!

“But only one side is turning their prejudice into a political movement on a national scale.”

That’s right, NGL.

NotGregLetiecq,

Red Dawn, I’m not sure who you quoted above, but isn’t “broad brushing”

I was quoting Moon-howler and it was over a debate that is never ending and that is broad brushing. All I can say, is go back thru the thread and you will see over and over and over and over AGAIN the broad brushing. If that does not work, pick a blog ( lol) or some other source be it tv or the water cooler…broad brushing. Go back and see who and why I quoted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwW9L_qzqp8

Not GregLetiecq,

Sorry, Here is the ENTIRE commentary of what I chose to take that broad brushing statement.

Moon-howler, 4. July 2008, 21:23

kgotthardt,

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. After the first message I sort of had a David slaying Goliath moment. I do understand anger and I understand striking back. The second message had a pretty decent message. (The sign was still an eyesore) However, the third message to me, is offensive. It makes no exception for those of us who did to anything to harm anyone. It broadbrushes all of us European Americans.

I have no problem having a discussion about things my country has done wrong. However, I will not tolerate someone, anyone, broadbrushing all of us. And yes, unless exceptions are made, it does mean you and me.

There are many things to say…Mr. Fernandez chose the wrong things to say. In fact, I have read that sign about 20 times since I was last in Mr. Fernandez’s presence. I am actually rather sorry I didn’t go up to him and tell him to go F*** himself because that is exactly what he is saying to us.

I am mature enough to not blame the rest of the hispanic community, however.

To throw a little more gasoline on the fire, yes, it was I who Red Dawn quoted.
I think that Mr. Fernandez has every right to say what he says. I just don’t think he has the right to say it where he has said it. That will be for the City of Manassas and the court system to sort out. I do take extreme issue with what he has said because he broadbrushes all Eurpean Americans.

I am going to ask everyone who has taken issue with what I have said to name me any country, still operational today, that doesn’t have a little dirt under its fingernails in the human rights department.

KGotthardt, I understand what you are saying about the academic community liking to beat up on America. That will all swing the other way eventually. Political pendulums swing back and forth. This country has no worse track record than many others, and far better than most I can name. We are a country that at least tries to right its wrongs.

You mentioned American Indians. Yes, many are angry still. Do you blame them? Palestinians are also really pissed off. Lots of folks are pissed off. Being pissed off just isn’t very productive. It solves nothing and saps energy that could be used to improve the quality of life of those who are pissed off.

The sign functions as a wall. It divides people. It divides people who wouldn’t ordinarily be divided. It name calls. It broadbrushes:

…Because european americans would rather have a ghost town than live among native americans. They ignore our voices, they ignore our civil and constitutional rights…

The issue will not be decided on the merits of its speech. The issue will be decided on the basis of land use. However, Mr. Fernandez needs to beware of unintended consequences. He could have forged powerful friendships. Instead, he listened to the uninformed and the unrealistic and chose to create powerful enemies. That is too bad because I think he is basically a decent person. He obviously doesn’t think MY ILK is the least bit decent.

NotGregLetiecq, 4. July 2008, 22:57,

Yes, the little guy is just throwing a stone at the giant. I agree. But he needs to be careful that his stones aren’t peppering the very people who might be on his side. He has not been careful. I know people of moderate voice have tried discussing this with him to no avail.

I did think about planting some corn in my front yard. I chickened out and put a big tomato bush in instead. Notice the chickened out part? winkwink

The sign functions as a wall. It divides people. It divides people who wouldn’t ordinarily be divided. It name calls. It broadbrushes:

…Because european americans would rather have a ghost town than live among native americans. They ignore our voices, they ignore our civil and constitutional rights…

Moon-howler, I agree with the first paragraph which is yours although I think HSM weilded the first machete that hacked up the community. The sign has become a point of disagreement/division on several levels – whether the very presence of a “billboard” is appropriate in the historic district of Manassas, whether its content is truthful, whether it constitutes “hate speech”,whether it’s the “blog” with the largest readership in the area, whether it’s been erected or stayed erected in violation of zoning ordinances or the building code,whether some people thought that it was the only means left to have their voices heard, whether most of the furor over the first sign (which was much milder)was whipped up by HSM, whether we’re a nation of laws and its removal/stay will be decided by them or whether we’re a community of bullies who will physically destroy a sign that displays that speech of which we disapprove. It’s been an interesting year.

The second paragraph – from the sign- also contains much truth. The Hispanic community turned out in large numbers (I’d venture to say larger numbers than the Red Circles) for that marathon BOCS meeting. But, their voices – the voices of Prince William County residents( men, women, and their children) – were ignored in favor of emails from across the country generated by a group of questionable repute. The message sent at that meeting was that their voices didn’t matter, that their stake in the community didn’t matter, that non-residents of PWC were more important, that they were invisible…though not as invisible as the Red Circle would prefer.

I wish I had enough sun for corn or tomatoes.

The Red Circle. I like that. Sounds Commie to me, forboding.

We’re growing tomatoes this year in our little back yard. We accidenally spread corn via our bird seed to our neighbors, but it turned out to be some kind of weird corn. The squirrels liked it but it wasn’t really human food.

Viva los pollos!

The billboard states history, and if it wants to accuse our three generations past relatives, then there is some truth, but it accuses the present day individual and that is what is so offensive. I’ve never owned slaves, and as of late haven’t seen any offered on E-Bay either, so hold present day people responsible only for their present day actions. Anything else is just a bunch of offensive lies.

Or las pollas. I guess pollos would be male chickens which would be odd since those are usually roosters?

SA, the word slaves, I believe, refers to the businesses that takes advantage of illegal immigrants by offering small wages, no protection, and potential for blackmail.

People in general feel like slaves all the time when they feel abused by their employers or the system. Haven’t you ever felt this way, or have you always been blessed to have a kind boss and a great job?

moon howler needs to bend over and howl at his moon, maybe it would listen.

as for KG and the other crew…maybe after fernandez get’s his sign torn down for him they can erect it in their yards! that would be awesome.

I’ve been blessed with the most awesome boss in the world! Myself

“Latino immigrants have been exploited by ungrateful, racist white residents who took advantage of their labor and now want them to leave.”

To me that that statement from the Post sums up the issue. Which white residents took advantage??? Did they only need their yards mowed once or twice? Homes cleaned once or twice? They have no further need for that labor?? What labor?? Certainly not the folks in Westgate?? Local residents are being held accountable for a federal government that turns a blind eye to businesses that hire illegals?? Mr. Fernandez doesn’t blame business either. Interesting.

As I’ve said many times, intolerance is intolerance regardless of your position on an issue. It is no different than BVBL. They are the same.

Mr. Fernandez needs to learn to use words like ’some’ if he wants to make political statements. Broadbrushing is a bad thing. <—-There’s the simplistic version.

I feel certain that HSM and the Order of the Red Circle set up shop as close to THE SIGN as possible. Don’t think for a minute the fearless leader didn’t squeeze as much mileage out of that sign as possible, using it to sign up new membership. Now there will be an entirely new group of people to exploit until they see through the rose colored glasses. That sign generates business for organizations like HSM and F.A.I.R.

Elvis, moon-howlers NEVER, EVER bend over. Check out the posture of this critter before checking out the music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uchkNaytsbM

“The Order of the Red Circle”

LMAO! I love it! All the mystery of Masons but with more than a touch of evil.

“Mr. Fernandez needs to learn to use words like ’some’ if he wants to make political statements.” TOTALLY agree! Amazing how that word can change the entire tone of a statement.

kgotthardt,

How can you feel like a slave at work when you receive pay and benefits? You may feel that you are in a bad job, but hardly like a slave. Show me one example of a slave in this day and time, and I’ll show you an illegal enterprise! The word slave has lost it’s meaning just as the word racist, because people misapply it constantly to the wrong situation. Racism may still exist, but hardly slavery as defined in colonial days.

The sign is simply an eyesore. I wouldn’t like it if it were a menu or a list of books.

Or a sign that says ‘Juturna is one fine specimen of a woman?’

2Al, You apparently have never taught or you wouldn’t make such a preposterous statement.

You can be a slave to your job meaning you are in and endless cycle of working for unethical people, doing your best, sarcrificing for the sake of KEEPING a job, endure discrimination and hatred while on the job, but you are still poor. You can be denied benefits, safety, respect, job security and good management yet still be poor….yes, this is just another kind of slavery, SA. Child labor was a kind of slavery. Slavery had nothing to do with whether or not laborors are being paid. Note the other definitions of slavery:

–a state of subjection like that of a slave: He was kept in slavery by drugs.
–severe toil; drudgery.

dictionary.com

Yikes! That post needed some severe editing. Sorry, folks, for the tense problems and typos.

Reference WHWN 4 Jul 16:46

Obviously some facts from paleo indian history are missing from the concept of “native” american, some of you so fervently believe was only recent hsitory. Native Americans are actually of Celtic and Asian descent (12,000 years ago), not hispanic descent as so many of you claim and believe that started with Cortez’s invasion (1519) and conquering of the Aztecs. The facts are in paleo indian history and archeology records, you should read some of them before you believe in a “hispanic” or “native” American myth about “turtle island” as an argument to “owning” the country.

I’m too tired to re-write it, and to promote AWCheney’s great and much needed new site on “illegal” immigration (a much better, responsible journalism, with better facts, better judgment, and less political bias than either bvbl or antibvbl) and I predict will replace both of your sites in balanced and intellectual immigration debate.

Read for yourself some factual information about the concept of just who is “native” in America. The facts will suprise you and make you angry if you are not Celtic (12,000 years ago) or Asian (10,000 years ago), or Australian aborigines (13-15,000 years ago). They are the original “native” Americans, not the people you claim are “native” in this eyesore of a biased racial bigot’s hate board.

http://scheney.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/thomas-jefferson-and-the-immigration-debate/#comment-75

AW’s site is really the first blog I’ve seen on the “illegal” immigration debate that will not leave you with a headache and worry for your health resulting from the stress of dealing with ignorance and malicious malice, as a cover for emotional hatred for gender, recial, ethnic and religious groups not like yourselves. Both sites (antibvbl and bvbl) are sites for racial “bigots” to each spew their hatred for the other and spin misinformation about the other to influence political groups and rebellious groups to action. Personally in looking at the debate I simply side with the “group” that favors lawfulness and law enforcement to protect the entire community equally. AW has that mental ability to rise above the hatred and address the “facts” and enforce the law fairly and equitably for all. She gets my vote for good leadership and wise counsel.

When his property burned down, was he renting to illegals? How many were crammed in to the dilapidated property?

Seems to me this guy is basically throwing a fit because the city won’t let him build chicken coops and shacks on his property.

Yawn…

Michael, if I am giving you a headache you have more than gotten even with me.

No one here has EVER said that Native Americans are the offspring of hispanics on this blog. I seriously doubt if you have a clue what any of us think. You come over here and assume the entire blog things something and start that finger a wagging.

I agree. Mrs. Cheney has a very nice blog. It is attractive and any information that goes up will be very well researched, albeit usually from conservative sources which is fine. I would expect Mrs. Cheney, who is a conservative, to research using conservative sources. Since she is new to the game, it is great that you are giving her such good advertisement. Have you told her lately how great her blog is?

Rick, the city of Manassas will work it all out, eventually. I trust you have read the postings about this subject over on bvbl? Several city employees have written several very intelligent, informative posts about how this all works.

Moonhowler, you have not given me a headache, most of your comments are well though out. I only disagree with some of them, specifically those that hint at or directly advocate we need try to “fix” the system by creating a conceptual argument that we are obligated to give amnesty to those “illegals” who have broken the law. Amnesty was a disaster the first time and will be an even larger disaster the next time. I stand by those “majority” of citizens who want the existing law enforced in it’s entirety. The views of most of those on this blog are in the “minority” on the issue of law enforcement. That is why ultimately those who believe this way will lose. The fight is not about racism, or ethnic “evils” it is simply about enforceing or not enforcing a gender, racial, religious, ethnic group neutral law. That is as simple a problem as you can define and not give people “headaches”.

I am with ALL of you that racism and ethnic wars or anger is “ilegal” and irresponsible, I am just pointing out to ALL of you that significant numbers of “minority” groups are ALSO guilty of modern racism, and ethnic hatred by their current “exclusion” practices and “ethnic focused behaviors and political alignments”, ALL expressing bigotry toward the “vast majority”, for simply desiring law enforcement and “I don’t agree with any one who is demaning any “more” than that, specifically ethnic “wars”. I join you in the attack on a few racists on EITHER SIDE.