AntiBVBL

Why the heck are you bringing this up? What, are you stealing a page from one of Rev. White’s sermons? This doesn’t sound like a post meant to bring ‘diverse’ people together. It’s more like trying to start a race war using, as always, ancient history. So I take it you aren’t white, and I’m beginning to get the impression you just may be racist towards whites, otherwise why bring this up?

That would be Wright not White, oops.

paging Dr. Freud…..

The Tuskegee Experiment is not all that obscure a story.

The fact that someone would describe events that occured 30 years ago as ancient history is truly frightening.

My first reaction is the same as SecondAlamo’s because I think those whose advocate for illegal aliens tend to take 1950’s era prejudice and apply it to 2008. We have changed in 50 years. However I think it is important to be aware that there were educated and presumably sophisticated people capable of participating in this type of horrible, dehumanizing research in the not too distant past. It’s important to see all people as human and treat them with respect and to know when that doesn’t happen.

I agree with Dignidad, we must learn from history so as not to repeat the negatives, but we must also base opinions solely on the actions at the present. If we didn’t then the world would constantly be at war due to dwelling on the past.

I do agree that we must learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes. However, having been raised in the 50’s I can see many parallels to what has been happening with immigrants today. So, sometimes I wonder what we really learned. Maybe those of us from that generation learned something but what about those who are in their 30’s, 40’s. To them it is like reading about WWI or WWII. It is just history and they are clueless about the struggles that people had to become respected and treated with dignity, to sit in the front of the bus or eat in a restaurant. Even some from my generation still hold on to their racial predjudices, so not everyone has learned from history.

I’m with SA, why is this being brought up and Marie, the prejudices are still thriving because people can’t seem to move on from the past, now I’m not saying forget the past but I am saying take the moment to reflect and then move on from it. The problem is people are emotional and when backed in a corner in todays society the only thing left IS the race card. Its a convenient way to say “back off and leave me alone” I get a little frustrated about the race card because its a one way street, If we had WET ( White Entertainement television) thats racist, if we had UWCF ( united White college fund) that would be racist, If we had a Miss WHITE America Pageant, that would be racist yet the black community has all of these and so does the Latino’s..bottom line is we are in a racial war and will continue todo so because because the non white races will never stop dwelling in the past…

By accepting my own ignorance on a daily basis, which I was taught to do by my Classics professor, it becomes necessary to study events like this with a more rational perspective and with less feeling preventing quick judgement and elminating good analysis. This is an example of true wrong is accepted now and then by limiting the evaluation to a particular standard held by a particular group at a particular time.

The only way to truly study history and make it useful is to resist making it relative to oneself or one’s culture and current situation.

IMHO

You said yourself..” not the case today” but “today” a white girl can’t participate in the Miss Black pageant…

Not sure I see the connection between this topic and Reverend Wright and Obama….

Nevermind – I just realized you were responding to SecondAlamo’s post at the very top of this thread. I misintrepreted that discussion as the reason you posted this topic – my mistake.

Think the following pre-dates 1945

Hippocrates, the father of medicine
——————————————————————————–

Hippocratic Oath — Classical Version

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art – if they desire to learn it – without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

Elena, 6. June 2008, 10:26
I have to run out the door, but promise to share more of my thoughts later. Obviously, there is alot of talk, still, about Reverend Wright and Obama, so I wanted to get at the heart of the issue and thought this would be a good starting point. Just Cause, we don’t need white miss america, we don’t white television, most of the shows still are overwhelmingly white.
___________________________________________________________

and its statements like this is, why we still have Racism in America…

It’s my opinion that most don’t know how to think, simply project.

This is exactly what the media pulls on us–inciting racial tension when they perceive there just hasn’t been enough of it lately. Come on, this is a spurious connection to the Obama/Wright issue, brought up just to incite some sort of white guilt or something. I was just a little kid when these “experiments” were revealed. They are very well known, and anyone over the age of 15 who hasn’t learned about them has been educated in a cave. Of course we should learn from the past,but then we should move on and resolve to do better. Are you suggesting that this sort of medical outrage is still going on in the U.S.? What more do you want, reparations? If that is the case, there are legions of Americans who could collect—Japanese (who were American CITIZENS, by the way) for their internment during WWII, Italians and Irish for the slurs and the outright discrimination they endured, gays who were beatento death–need I go on?

We could beat ourselves up over all of these past injustices, spend outrageous amounts of money and resources, but we will never be able to change history. The only thing in our power is to move forward and to resolve to do better. Staying mired in the past is beyond destructive.

Emma

We could use some better thinkers.

What were those Dr. doing? You read,the Hippocratic oath? What exactly about their environment would have had to exist to justify what happened. What they did was wrong in 24BC, 24AD, 1945 in the South of the USA and 1945 in the North of the USA.

This is like medicalizing bad behaviour or justifying bad childhoods as a reason for criminal behaviour.

What is the difference?

Emma,

I think you make a good point about staying ‘mired in the past.’ It serves no purpose. On the other hand, we should be aware of the past. I just refuse to beat myself up over things that *I* had nothing to do with.

If I were going to take on past American sins and wear a horse-hair shirt, I would rather pick and choose the American Indian. I can get all teary eyed, and snivel and sniff over most things having to do with them. HOwever, if a Native American came up to my door and said I was on his or her lands and to please move along…well…Hell no!

Environment cannot justify bad behaviour. Bad can be defined scientifically if you make yourself think.

The people on this bulletin board that call others racists – they are even more racist as this topic proves. They are climbing all over each other with their racist remarks.This topic was posted to bring all the racists out so they could start yelling back and forth at each other to prove who can play the race card first. And the winner is…. It’s a draw! Theres too many racists on this bulletin board to count! All you racists should go jump off the nearest bridge.

“HOwever, if a Native American came up to my door and said I was on his or her lands and to please move along…well…Hell no!” )

Juturna, I agree that this ugly part of history was a reprehensible, racist violation of the Hippocratic Oath. And Elena, yes, we should not forget history, and you make some excellent points. But now we have an African American who has the Democratic nomination for President. Doesn’t that speak for itself? Why bring up all of these horrible injustices right now, when the people who fought so long and hard for this day to come should be celebrating this accomplishment? This should be a celebration, not an excuse to dig up and rehash past injustices and ignite bitterness and division.

Sometimes you have to let go of the race card and acknowledge that progress has–and right now is–being made.

Elena,

Who gets to decide when the “healing” is complete? Certainly not those who dredge up these issues again and again to suit one agenda or another. Does the ENTIRE African-American population have to concur that it’s finally over?

American citizens who even LOOKED Japanese were rounded up and deprived of their freedom during World War II while they were forced to live in internment camps. That was a horrendous assault that should never have happened. If you’re going to dredge up the Tuskegee experiments, you should also pay attention to the many other injustices that have occurred over the years to many different groups. I think you would get quite bogged down, wouldn’t you? Every generation has its victims, unfortunately.

I’m sorry, but Obama, like the rest of us, is a product of his upbringing. He was nursed on the words of Rev Wright; the man performed Obama’s marriage ceremony and baptized his kids. How could you continue to attend a church where the pastor continually preached messages that you found objectionable? Don’t most people attend the church that reflects their personal convictions? Waiting to distance himself from the good Reverend at the ripe old age of 46 is nothing more than a political ploy.

Emma,
“Waiting to distance himself from the good Reverend at the ripe old age of 46 is nothing more than a political ploy.”

I see it this way too.

I think those who are ardent Obama supporters will overlook the Reverend Wright business much quicker than those who do not support him.

Then there are those of us in the middle who have not made up our minds. Perhaps we will take a careful look also.

I was a very big Bill Clinton supporter. When he ran in to his Monica Lewinsky difficulties, I didn’t look as closely as I should have perhaps but I did downplay that which I really couldn’t justify.

I have 5 months to sort it all out. I will not dismiss Reverend Wright, however. I hope he fades away out of the political scenery.

We do cut those we ardently admire lots of slack.

Emma, 7. June 2008, 8:49, asked:
Who gets to decide when the “healing” is complete? Certainly not those who dredge up these issues again and again to suit one agenda or another. Does the ENTIRE African-American population have to concur that it’s finally over?

Answer:
Yes, THEY do.

Since white people were in charge, we don’t get to say the healing is over just because we are tired of it. Any black people here? AngryBlackman still around?

I grew up in a mixed black/white community in New Jersey, and my first job out of undergraduate school was in an office that dealt with African American issues, in which I was the only white person. It was a tremendous, eye-opening experience. I realized, in fact was astounded, that even though I grew up with black people, I really didn’t know their subculture, didn’t know what it felt like to walk in their shoes. Since then, I am very sensitive to not condemning their expressions of pain that may bug me.

I was a Hillary supporter, but Obama’s membership in that church had absolutely no bearing on that decision.

If anything, it should lead us to a more open discussion of black/white relations, but I doubt it. It’s just very hard to talk about it face to face in a mixed group.

I almost hate to bring this up – regarding Clinton – but since it was brought up here’s where I have a problem with the whole Lewinsky thing. Any other federal government employee (or employee of a public company) caught doing something like that with a subordinate – one of two possibilities would occur:
1. It would open the company or the fed. gov’t up to a sexual harrassment lawsuit.
2. The person doing this would probably be fired.

Of course for Clinton, none of that mattered. But my point is, why do people jump up and scream then when it happens elsewhere in the federal workplace, or at a private company, but when the President does it with a subordinate (an intern) they brush it aside.

It was a sign of extremely poor judgement, and goes to the whole “character” issue. If someone does that, he probably has other character problems. Many people here would jump all over another person (or their husband/wife) if they cheated. And for those of us who hold DOD Security Clearances – we would lose our clearance AND our job if we cheated. Clinton (and any other president) sees all sorts of classified information at Secret, Top Secret, and above levels. For those of us like me who hold a security clearance, if I had an affair and it was discovered, I can tell you my clearance would be revoked ASAP, and that would mean a loss of my job.

So personally, that’s why I have issues with the whole Clinton/Lewinsky thing. I think a lot of people who don’t work in the federal workplace, and/or don’t hold security clearances, don’t understand how if any of us did what Clinton did, the ramifcations would be high. And how do you explain that Clinton, as the chief executive of the federal government, gets away with something that if one of his employees did it (having sexual relations in the workplace) they would be fired. And, again, a lot of his employees hold high level security clearances – and again if found out they had an affair (even not occurring on government or company property) they would lose their clearance without any question. THAT’S the problem i have with the whole thing.

I’m sure a lot of others will disagree with me but that’s why I had a hard time with the whole Clinton/Lewinsky thing – not to mention the distraction it created in our nation from being focused on much more important issues.

Emma, you sum up perfectly my feelings on the Wright/Obama issue which I’ve tried to articulate in other threads. Actually Red Dawn agreed with that particular sentence and I have to also – what you said in a single sentence really captures the way I feel about it more than what I’ve written elsewhere in another thread:

“Waiting to distance himself from the good Reverend at the ripe old age of 46 is nothing more than a political ploy.”

anon, I actually agree with you on the Clinton/Lewinsky thing. I look at Hillary and still wonder how she could put up with that.

Firedancer,

“I look at Hillary and still wonder how she could put up with that.”
I guess THAT depends on what is IS. lol, I hear ya

What I find torturous is THIS.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5013503

“Chief Daryl Roberts also expressed outrage in a news conference Wednesday, saying “we no longer have a moral compass.”

I do not think racism will ever go away.I have said before as the laws change so does racism.

We as a society have become so focused on being politically correct and that may have brought in fear for inaction.
What I am seeing is when someone wants to stand up, it becomes labeled as extremist, racist ,apologist,and whatever you would call people that look into conspiracy theories just like the Rev. Wright or even John Hagee .

I think it has been going on for so long that everyone has become complacent and NUMB. Everyone becomes fearful to say anything or do anything as a result.
This video just makes me think and I hope it makes everyone ELSE think too.

1. Elena “looks” white.

2. “The only way to truly study history and make it useful is to resist making it relative to oneself or one’s culture and current situation.”

If we do NOT relate it to current times, oneself and the present, we can’t learn from it or apply it in meaningful ways. The only history teacher who was able to get me to engage was the one who related past events to present. Connections are what help us understand the importance of our decisions, how they impact people, and how they affect the present and the future.

Firedancer – I’m a male obviously, but I always wondered how Hillary put up with that. I kind of figured it was politically expedient for her to do so – at the time she was probably looking to the future and her career in the Senate, etc. So that’s how I figured she rationalized it. Of course no one but her knows her real reasons for standing by Bill. But I have a feeling the complicated calculus of politics and the pros and cons of sticking with him or leaving him were a big factor – most likely. As a male, if my wife ever did that, I’d have a hard time sticking with her, that’s for sure. I can’t speak to the female perspective on infedelity, and obviously am only speaking from my own personal view.

Firedancer, has EVERY African-American endured discrimination? I think not. If we wait for EVERY one of them to concur, we are in for endless racial division. Of course, what would we–or anyone else in the media–talk about if white folks weren’t constantly reminded of their evils?

Firedancer & Emma,

“If anything, it should lead us to a more open discussion of black/white relations, but I doubt it. It’s just very hard to talk about it face to face in a mixed group.”

“we are in for endless racial division. Of course, what would we–or anyone else in the media–talk about if white folks weren’t constantly reminded of their evils?”

I agree with both of you but it is a tie between the 2 comments.

WE need to talk about it. Lets challenge it and go ahead.

I for one do believe that the ‘white’ person will forever be the blame just like in slavery, we are NOW seeing it with the sign on Liberty st.

When does the word SORRY count? What does it mean to FORGIVE?
I want to know if I go and do something so unbelievable, will MY CHILDREN and grandchildren pay the price?

Actually, another way of saying this is when will the demands for reparations stop? How long do future generations have to pay for the sins of past generations. There will always be racism, and there will always be groups who are impacted by it. Will every group demand reparations. Let’s just suppose amnesty is approved. Will those who gain amnesty and gain citizenship then demand a future generation make reparations for what happened to them?

It is kind of what Red Dawn says by “When does the word SORRY count? What does it mean to FORGIVE?” Some of the demands for reparations go back to things done more than 50 years ago (I’m not saying all of them, but some of them). It is an interesting question, which I don’t know the answer to, but if people continue to demand reparations or formal apologies from people who weren’t even around when the original events occurred, it will be a pattern we’ll never escape from.

anon, ( I am still waiting for you to pick a name? How about FOREVER ANON, lol )

“but if people continue to demand reparations or formal apologies from people who weren’t even around when the original events occurred, it will be a pattern we’ll never escape from”

I think that is a possible answer to my question.

As long as the people who where effected feel the pain that was TURNED INTO RESENTMENT because they could not FORGIVE creates the new generation of excuses…..STILL THINKING

I guess that lesson is a HARD one to learn and that would be when is it time to forgive? NOT FORGET but FORGIVE…

I don’t think a formal apology is that out of the question….so long as it is sincere.

KG – my point was that excusing behaviour by limiting it’s relavance to specific times, envrionments and morals is wrong. Just becuase it was the US south and in 1945 doesn’t excuse what happened. Look at the act separately.

Emma – the reason to bring this up again and again is to hope that something like this never happens again.

KG – therefore I agree with your statement about bringing events forward in history to re-visit. Make sense?

KG – I was not inferring that you were excusing it. Previous posters made comments to the effect that given the times and the region….. I find that perspective unacceptable and was not inferring it was yours. Just in case…

Red Dawn, you make a good point about while it is OK never to forget, it would be a step in the right direction to forgive. It’s a lesson we all could learn at times (myself included).

As to picking a name – I do think it is kind of time for me to pick one. Given that I’ve now managed to identify myself as a resident of Point of Woods in another thread, I kind of am leaning toward something like “Soon to be ex-Point of Woods Resident’ but then again that’s an awfully long name! Maybe “Leaving Point of Woods” – that’s nice and short. It kind of sums up all my frustrations in a nutshell – nice and concisely!

By the way Red Dawn – think you are wasting time trying to engage in discussion with the poster in that other thread. Although I will admit there’s a certain comedy watching everyone who responds to that person get some crazy comeback flung in their direction. He seems to be an equal opportunity hater at least – I haven’t seen him agree with anyone who responds to his posts. I was over in that thread watching the barbs fly back and forth or I would have responded over here sooner. I just finally got tired of looking at that thread and decided to come back to this one to see if there was any more interesting (and sane) discussion, which I see there is. I think I’ll hang out here for awhile and later go back and watch the drama ensuing on the other thread!

But as to names, maybe Forever Anon is a good one, since I have been anon for what seems like forever! So that’s a good one, Red Dawn!

This is a test post with my new name. I am formerly “anon” but finally decided to get around to changing it – no thanks to Red Dawn’s persistence at bugging me about it (just kidding Red Dawn – it’s all in fun!). I suspect this post will go in moderation but hopefully at some point come out of it so I can start posting under this new name. Thanks Red Dawn – it was kind of “high time” to dump the anon thing!

anon,

I now pronounce you forever anon and as far as the other thread, I am officially PISSED OFF!

OK, you convinced me Red Dawn. I just made a post as “Leaving Point of Woods” as I kind of like that – it reminds me I’m seeing the light at the end of the tunnel in my own personal situation. Of course, as I expected based on what Emma said in one of her posts – possibly in another thread when she went to change her user name – it is in moderation, which is OK.

I guess until it comes out of moderation (which there’s no hurry but when it does I’ll start posting under that name) – you can think of me as “soon to be ex-anon”!!! So thanks for finally getting me to do something about it – I was kind of tiring of the anon thing but was more or less too lazy to try and think of something creative for a name. It finally came to me – a good name that kind of sums up my frustrations in just a few words! So thanks for somehow giving me some inspiration – my mind had been drawing a blank but all of the sudden it was a bit like a lightbulb going off. I’m not what one would consider a creative person – I’m more of a logical thinker, so coming up with something creative is always a bit of a struggle for me. That’s a big part of why I hung on to the anon handle for such a long time. Well, once I see my post under the new name come out of moderation – and there’s no hurry on that to whoever does that – I’ll switch to it and we can say goodbye to anon – that is until another anon pops up. Actually there was someone else that posted one or two posts as anon – but then they disappeared it seems – as I started to worry I would get confused with their posts – about 2 weeks ago… Maybe they’ll come back once I abandon the anon userid!

Wow that was fast (thanks!). I see I’m out of moderation. So that’s the end of me being anon!

Red Dawn – don’t let them get you down on the other thread! I know I sometimes got riled up when I perceived personal attacks on myself, but that other thread – the attacks were so far out there and so unbelievably crazy I had to laugh at them. Someone has far too much time on their hands! Then again, some might say the same thing about me – but actually I’m quite a multi-tasker and so I’m not devoting as much time to this blog as it really appears from my posts. Sorry I didn’t take up your suggestion of Forever Anon (it actually is a very good one) but Leaving Point of Woods keeps reminding me of the “light at the end of the tunnel” for my somewhat dreary existence here that was beginning to really affect my mood and quality of life!

Red Dawn: I think I’ll go back and take a peek at that other thread (I’m almost afraid to) to see what’s transpired there while I’ve been over here. I’m going to “tie my hands behind my back” and fight the urge to respond as it just appears not to be worth it – but I know I may be sorely tempted when I get over there….

Anon, regarding sexual liasons on the federal job….I have known a lot of fed workers over many years. Not all of them are fired. Not by a long shot. It goes on all the time. I am not justifying it. I am just accepting that it happens. Always has, always will.

Elena, I felt it was irrelevant (Bill Clinton’s daliances) and I felt that he shouldn’t have been asked. That was a witch hunt. The actions of others took the focus off running the country. but I liked Clinton very much and thought he was doing an excellent job. I understand that others do not feel as I do. I actually still don’t care. It was between him and his wife.

The world is full of people who have experienced infidelities. They either leave or they forgive. No one has mentioned the Hillary just might have forgiven Bill. I think because it was so public and therefore more humiliating, it makes us wonder how she can stand him. Who knows. The man definitely has charisma. They also have a daughter who they both adore.

Elena, i do agree with you that what happened with Clinton caused a huge distraction off of more important issues in the country happening at the time. However, it was a huge lack of judgement on his part to cause the whole fiasco in the first place. As a public figure, you have to realize you are often held to a higher standard than non-public figures. He apparently didn’t take that into account, and failed to forsee what might happen if what he did was discovered. Not only that, at first he completely denied it, rather than just come out and admit it when confronted.

As to Hillary standing by him, I do concede it is really a personal issue between her and Bill as to how they worked it out. And yes, no denying Bill has lots of charisma. And of course as they have a daughter part of the decision may have been preserving their marriage for the sake of her daughter.

As to sexual liasons on federal jobs – I’m sure there are lots of examples where it happens and they hold on to their jobs. Although not so sure if anyone who has an affair and holds a security clearance would be able to. Having an affair is pretty much a deal breaker for a high level security clearance. If you try to obtain one and you’ve had an affair in recent times before obtaining one, I don’t think it will be possible for you to get one. If you hold one and then have the affair, and it is found out, they would revoke it faster than you can blink your eye! And yet Bill Clinton thought nothing of this, as a person who regularly sees Top Secret and above information – the risk he was taking if he was found out. Then again whoever gets to be president is automatically granted the highest level clearance – obviously or else the president isn’t going to be able to do his job.

But I do say again – anyone who holds a high level Dept. of Defense Security Clearance – and has an affair and the affair is found out, would have a next to impossible chance of holding onto that clearance. For those who have never held a security clearance – once you get to Top Secret or above (the word of compartmentalized security clearances) – you have no idea the standards you are held to. Any blip on your credit record may be cause for a security downgrade or revocation. An affair or infedelity will certainly cause it to happen. Alchoholism or drug abuse goes without saying. I don’t make the rules or say they are necessarily right – but if you choose to go into a job that requires a security clearance – or in the President’s case sort of are automatically granted one – you need to be extremely careful and make sure you don’t “step out of line” as it were. The fact that Clinton didn’t seem to forsee the possible consequences – to me is a severe character flaw. And the fact that he continued to be allowed to see high level classified information and go about his job – whereas any of the rest of us with security clearances would not have, is what I find unfair. In that case, fine – then change the rules on security clearances. But again, I say, it’s a deal breaker if you have an affair and it gets found out. You would have a very hard time holding onto your clearance and your job. At the very least – your clearance would be immediately downgraded pending investigation. At that point, if that made you unable to perform your job (which if mine were downgraded then I could not perform my job as I would not have access to the system I’m working on) – your company would probably have no choice but to fire you. In fact, holding a clearance for me is a condition of my employment – and it is understood if I lose my clearance I would be terminated.

Well, I’m just trying to make the point, that from my own view, THAT is why Clinton got impeached. He was regularly exposed to classified information.

And, the whole thought process between infedelity/affairs and security clearances is that if you do something like that – you open yourself up to things like blackmail – and there are plenty of people out there who might use that to get you to reveal classified info to them – in exchange for their “silence” – if they somehow found out about your affair/infedelity – or any of the other things I mentioned (alchohol/drug abuse, financial problems, any criminal act, etc.). Again, I don’t make the rules but these are what they are and what I think (actually what we are TAUGHT) – is the thought process behind them.

It is also sort of – if you don’t like the rules regarding security clearances, then you need to find another line of work that doesn’t require them.

And believe me, I find it very onerous at times, as what makes me sleep uneasy at night is the very prevalent problem of identity theft, and there are genuine cases of honest people losing their clearances because their credit record is ruined. Is this right? Of course not. But unfortunately what again happens is, as soon as someone’s credit records is compromised, it will be a “red flag” and at the very least, their clearance will be immediately downgraded until it can be proven that it is a result of identity theft. If their daily job depends on daily access to a classified system, they won’t be able to do their job, and again, they might be almost immediately let go by their company. Most company’s aren’t going to let someone sit around on what’s called “overhead” as that just eats into the company’s profits.

Well, I think I at least said my point on where I’m coming from with the whole Bill “infidelity” issue. As a private citizen without a clearance he can do anything he wants, but as President he should at least follow the standards that those of us who are asked to hold security clearances so we can work on highly classified systems – have to follow. I felt that the leader of the US Armed Forces didn’t hold himself to the same standards as most of the armed forces (many of them also are required to hold security clearances) OR civilians who work in the defense industry and support the armed forces such as I do. Again, this is my own personal point of view, but to me it isn’t fair when the leader of our armed forces isn’t held to the same standards of conduct as members of the armed forces or civilian defense contractors are required to be held to, by the fact their security clearances demand it.

And not to belabor this – but the following are good links to see what I’m talking about in regards to security clearances:

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blsecmenu.htm – tells things that are looked at for someone obtaining or holding a clearance (actually every 5 years you undergo a complete reinvestigation – and if infedelity had been found as part of that investigation – your clearance probably wouldn’t be renewed).

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/ – this is fascinating – and we are taught to look at this page – as it is the real adjudications of people’s clearances (names redacted) and gives you a window into what was decided when a person had some things that might cause their clearance to be denied or revoked – it goes into what is called “Adjudication” when after all the negative evidence has been gathered by the investigators – a 3rd party – basically an “Adjudicator” who is like a judge – makes the decision whether or not to grant the clearance (or in the case of someone holding a clearance – whether or not to revoke it or restore it). Very interesting reading, although there are thousands of cases there.

Anyway, I submit that anyone who engaged in the REPEATED infidelity that Clinton did, would have his clearance revoked or denied. Maybe a “one time” infidelity might be overlooked, IF that was the only negative piece of information the investigators found. Also, if you own up to something bad you did right away, and admit it to the investigators as soon as they confront you with it – that is sometimes looked favorably upon. Again, Clinton did not own up to it right away but denied it vehemently – and that would sort of a be the “nail in the coffin” for someone who engaged in an affair, was confronted by investigators about it – and did not right away confess. If they did they MIGHT have some chance of holding onto their clearance.

My whole point is – why should us normal people who are asked to hold security clearances, be held to a higher standard than our President, and the leader of our military! It had to definitely be bad for military morale as a good percentage of the military hold at least Secret clearances. Most military officers hold higher clearances than Secret, but a good deal of soldiers/sailors/airmen hold at least Secret. To put your hands on much of the equipment present on a military ship, submarine, tank, aircraft or whatever, usually does require a Secret clearance, if not something higher. Any communications equipment at least requires Secret – as usually cryptographic technology is employed – and often that even means Top Secret. In fact anyone who operates or “touches” crypto equipment holds a Top Secret or higher clearance. Anyone who doesn’t – can’t go anywhere near that equipment.

Anyway, for those interested – the two links above are interesting (although lengthy) reading in the public domain about security clearances.

And right to the point I was trying to make – here’s a particular case regarding infelidelity:

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/07-03637.h1.pdf

Also one that hits home for me (and shows how onerous this process is): http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/07-05341.h1.pdf . I lose sleep over this decision due to my own personal circumstances. However my security officer assures me I won’t have any problems – I don’t know though. My clearance comes up for a 5 year review in January 2009 – so it makes me very uneasy. I think this particular case – the individual’s clearance should have been granted – I don’t see that her connections to China were such that she should be denied a clearance.

Things like this is what makes having a clearance a bit of a living hell. Unfortunately though, it gets you the most interesting and challenging work, which is what I like. At some point of time, having to deal with the worries about being married to someone who is not yet a US Citizen (and won’t be for at least 4 more years at the earliest, I think) – may cause me to have to re-evaluate whether I should find a software engineering job that doesn’t require a clearance. Or, if my case is deemed similar to the one I cited above, it could force me into doing so!

This is why I think that Clinton never was held accountable for his behavior – it was not that different than the first case I cited above. No, he didn’t pick up prostitutes, which is what that case was about. But I’ve seen other decisions like this one and it didn’t involve prostitutes – or “committing a crime’ which indeed picking up a prostitute is commiting a crime. However, I’m sure the federal workplace has rules regarding sexual relationships with subordinates and leaving the gov’t open to sexual harrassment lawsuits. What if Clinton had caused a sexual harrassment lawsuit? And I’m sure he broke a rule there, and disregard for rules or laws is a good reason to have a clearance denied/revoked. The first case I cited doesn’t exactly fit what Clinton did, but shows the potential for infidelity to be a cause for loss of clearance. Again, the prostitute thing brings into consideration the subject broke a criminal statute, which clinton admittedly did not, but I can’t yet find a case of just regular infidelity (not involving prostitutes) – although they are out there somewhere in the mountains of cases on that webpage.

Anyway, I’ve said enough on this topic, but I wanted to drive the point home that holding a security clearance is a responsibility – not a “right” – and Clinton seemed to not be thinking of that when he went down the path he did. That really sums up what I’ve been trying to say here, and why I think he wasn’t held to the same standard as the rest of us who are required to hold clearances as part of our jobs, and would lose our job if our clearance was revoked/denied.

Juturna, 7. June 2008, 20:55
Emma – the reason to bring this up again and again is to hope that something like this never happens again.

Fair enough, Juturna. But you might recall that the Nazis referred to Jews as “Christ Killers” and used that as an excuse to try to obliterate them, for something that happened 2,000 years ago. Does every Jew today bear that responsiblity? I think not. As a Christian, I prefer to think of Jewish folks as Pope John Paul II did, as our “spiritual forefathers.”

The endless blame game can ultimately be disastrous, if we want to learn from history.

As far as Clinton is concerned, I normally don’t care what people do in their private time. But when a President or other person in a position of leadership engages in a behavior that he/she would like to keep secret, that individual is then in a position to be “bought” in exchange for silence to protect his/her family or job. Clinton’s behavior could have compromised the nation in any number of ways, depending on how much we was will willing to protect his secret. That is why our leaders–and many other people working in government–are held to a higher standard. If they are not open about their behaviors–whether they are gay, lesbian, unfaithful to spouses and family, have an alcohol dependence–whatever—who knows what they might be willing to sacrifice to protect that secret?

Emma – actually you summed it up in a better way than I was trying to do in all my words – I was trying to address the “high standard” issue as that’s probably the most important thing in all that I was saying. Policiticans should KNOW they need to be held to a higher standard, and if they aren’t looking to be held to that, they should get out of public service. At least someone who is seeking the highest office of this nation. And, again, it wasn’t so much as the actual deed itself, but the vehement denying of it afterwards. I know everyone is going to say for example that it is a well known fact President Kennedy engaged in affairs. It was a different time, and the security clearance process may not have been what it is today (I don’t know – I’m not THAT old!). But anyway at the time Kennedy wasn’t found out, and I guess “good for him”! Also, if he was, i would hope he would have come clean right away, instead of involving us in torturous definition of the word “is” and other lawyerly double speak – trying to hide what he really did. Again, I find his denial more shameful than the act itself, and really he committed perjury in the private lawsuit between him and whatever her name is (it escapes my mind) who was suing him for alleged treatment of her while he was Governor of Arkansas. That really is what kicked off the whole scandal, as her investigators apparently found Lewinsky’s “confidant” (again I forget her name – my memory is failing me these days) and when confronted about it at the deposition, he lied/commited perjury.

But it gets back to Emma’s point – our President shoudl be held to a higher standard than most people. That is what I cannot get away from.

Monica’s friend was Linda Tripp.

Also, Emma’s point about the potential for a gov’t official being “bought” in exchange for silence on his indiscretion – that’s exactly the same kind of thinking in terms of an individual holding a security clearance, and why having an affair is considered something that opens that person up as a target for people such as the KGB (OK, they don’t exist anymore but something else like them does) – to use against that person in exchange for forcing them to give up US secrets! That is why holding a gov’t security clearance means you must not put yourself at risk for extortion – and if you have an affair and try to keep it secret, but a foreign agent finds out about it – then it opens you up to extortion. And that is why they will almost automatically revoke your security clearance if a federal investigator of the DOD’s investigative branch – finds out about an affair you are trying to hide.

Thanks Emma – indeed Linda Tripp is who i was trying to think of, but I had a mental block on her name. It has been a long time for me in terms of even thinking about Monica Lewinsky or any of the other figures associated with that mess – and I could not pull out Linda Tripp’s name – it might have come to me eventually if I thought long and hard enough….

Elena, I very much remember the controversy over Mel Gibson’s movie. Indeed, many Jewish organizations were pretty unhappy with it. Of course, it doesn’t help things that Mel Gibson himself, has done some drunken racists rants against Jews, and his father before the movie came out (even before it was made) was well known for making outrageous statements such as the holocaust was fiction – it never happened, etc. etc.!! But the movie was highly controversial, and many mainstream Jewish organizations came out against it. And that only happened 2 or 3 years ago (I forget exactly when his movie was released) so it is recent history and at least very fresh in my mind.

I think in regards to what Emma was saying about Jews – is indeed many people do really believe the Jews were responsible for killing Christ. So she was trying to make the point – SUPPOSING they really WERE responsible – should today’s Jews still be making apologies and bearing responsibility for what happened 2000 years ago? It is similar to the argument that all white people should still be making apologies and even that the US Gov’t should still be paying “reparations” for what happened to the black slaves in the years before the Civil War. I think that’s the point she was stating. And it is a fact that there are some sizeable element of people out there that DO think the Jews were responsible for killing Christ – whether or not it is a historical fact or fiction.

Elena, of course I know that. That’s the whole point. But the Nazis used the “collective guilt” concept as one of their many reasons to kill Jews–blamed the collective group for something that happened over 2000 years ago. Pontius Pilate was more concerned about his political situation than about the fate of an innocent man. The point is that ongoing collective guilt and the demand for reparations can take an evil turn, as it did during WWII.

LPOW, that is what I meant–we can go on forever apologizing for real or perceived offenses, or we can move on. The Nazis were so mired in hatred anyway that there was no moving on–they found whatever excuse they could drum up to try to exterminate innocent lives.

“Forgive and forget” is a superhuman concept. Most people are capable of forgiving, but forgetting sometimes takes an act of divinity. Withholding forgiveness when the offender has done much to try to change things can sometimes be nothing short of extortion.

OK Emma – I definitely agree. Indeed, at one point are all the apologies enough. And you are correct about the Nazis using that as one of their excuses in wanting to exterminate the Jews. Why should the Jews in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s have been held accountable for PERCEIVED events of nearly 2000 years before? They were, and unfortunately they paid an unbelievable price for it, in terms of the 6 million that were killed, not to mention countless families torn apart, and countless more imprisoned in concentration camps but fortunately managing to escape in one way or the other. It was a terrible toll to pay – only because again they were being held responsible for something that their very distant ancestors weren’t even really guilty of in the first place.

And indeed your point about forgive and forget is very valid, and after 2000 years, or even 150 years (which is still several generations) – how much more does someone have to do until the “forgive and forget” rule takes over.

I meant to say: at WHAT point are all the apologies enough. I don’t know how I managed to type: at one point are all the apologies enough! I read it back and it made absolutely no sense so I wanted to clarify what i said in the 2nd sentence of my post!

So what,then, should be the ultimate “apology?” What are you, Elena, willing to give up to make it right?

The number of black men in jail or on death row are there because they committed crimes. They have not been summarily rounded up, charged and imprisoned for no reason.
Again,I ask you, what are you willing to give up yourself? I presume you were paid for what sounds like a very honorable job–that you weren’t a volunteer. I can relate as a nurse. My job is highly technical, I have to keep current with technology and pharmacology, and I get to make a big difference in people’s lives, even having the privilege of saving them a few times. But it is a grossly undervalued job, and there are secretaries in my organization who are paid more than I am paid. So, agreed, we all make sacrifices to do things that make a difference.
Without discounting the nobility of all you propose, I would like to know how much more in taxes you are willing to pay for what you propose above. The “government” doesn’t run on air, it runs on the backs of middle-class citizens like me and, I presume, you.

And I am not discounting the need to help those in need. It just seems to me that you are suggesting that there are no resources in place already, when there are many. Just by checking a box indicating race, you can benefit from many educational opportunities. Unfortunately, in some inner-city areas, taking advantage of these opportunities can get someone targeted as “acting white.” I’m not sure what a white person can do to counteract that sort of culture, but the opportunities are there, and plenty of your tax dollars are spent on welfare, food stamps, esol, medicaid,etc.

Businesses who reside in communities, use up water and air resources, and don’t bother to hire locally (or legally) and benefit from a number of tax breaks should be bearing some of the costs you are proposing. How many CEO’s are making money in the BILLIONS, and then outsourcing labor so that a woman in Bangladesh is making $1.25 a day to feed, clothe and house her family? Or who hire local–illegal–labor and then pay slave-labor wages to circumvent the system and depress wages for everyone else? These are the true bloodsuckers of society.

So before people start demanding that “the government” step up to the plate, look who is actually doing the funding of said “government”, and who is merely profiting, and THEN decide what more “the government” should be doing.

Already noted. I will do that.

Ah, back to the affairs. The press knew about the daliances of Kennedy, Johnson, FDR, etc. That was back in the day when the office of the presidency commanded a respect within the press where those types of things just were not discussed. It was sort of along the same lines as FDR never having his picture taken with braces or infirmitites showing. As late the vice-presidency of George Bush Sr, there was an unspoken agreement to keep daliances under wraps.

Now we have to know every single detail of everyone’s life, down to Jimmy Carter’s hemmroids. What is it about Bill Clinton’s ‘indiscretions’ that bother people? What if he were single? Would he be allowed to date, in the eyes of the American people?

I am not defending his behavior. I am simply saying life goes on and the bottom line is, and in my opinion, he should not have been asked while in office. He did what most people do when accusations are made. He equivocated.

I understand what you are saying Moon-howler, and you do make some very valid points. Hoewever, it kind of goes back to being held to a higher standard, and again the issue of security clearances and access to classified information – and leaving yourself open to external influence if a foreign agent discovered your “dalliances” or “indescretions” and used them against you, in exchange for their silence on something you were trying to avoid other people knowing (an affair, drug use, etc.).

If it were a single person dating, there’s nothing wrong with that obviously – and it wouldn’t set off any “red flags”. The whole thing about holding a security clearance is taking care to not engage in any behavior that leads you open to being the subject of extortion. I feel like a President who engages in an affair, runs the risk of other people finding it out, and agreeing to keep it a secret, in exchange for something (who knows what) from the President. Actually, more broadly, this would apply to any high level gov’t official. I think it was a character flaw of Clinton’s that he did not forsee that as a possibility (I’m not saying it happened) when he engaged in his affair.

As to Kennedy – he too took the same risk – fortunately it seems his daliances did not become known until well after his presidency. And as you point out, it was sort of a different time back then. And I know about the rumors regarding Bush Sr., which it is hard to say if they were true or not (that he ever did engage in some sort of affair). If he did, it is just as bad as what Clinton did, in my eyes. Especially given that he was the Director of the CIA at one time, and should have known the risks in engaging in that behavior, while holding a high level security clearance!

Umm. Can we please get back to the Tuskogee syphilis study?