AntiBVBL

Elena,

Thanks for pointing this out. The comments on this article in WaPo are quite illuminating. Anyone who emphatically denies that bigotry is at the heart of the anti-immigrant movement…or that the focus is only upon those who broke the law…is proven wrong my the bottomless pit of bile spewed out in the comments on this article.

Those who insist the anti-immigrant movement is only about the rule of law…I wonder if the bile you hear in the comments, can also be found around their dinner table when no one who would expose them is listening.

Although a Naturalization Support Center in Virginia would benefit me personally, I am strongly against spending government funds on this. If advocacy groups want to spend private donations, that’s fine.
I am very opposed to illegal immigration. I am also concerned about my country not being able to assimilate the largely uneducated Hispanic population that it has, be it legal or not. I am very opposed to the bigotry that I have seen among some Hispanics, so it should be noted that not all racists are white. (It should go without saying that I am very opposed to all bigotry).
For someone to revert to the racism card each time there is a disagreement weakens defences against true racism.

And so it goes. We’ve been hearing for months now that the issue is “Illegal Immigrants,” not those who “waited in line and followed our laws. I read this and see “Hispanic” or “Mexican” interchanged with “Illegal Immigrants.”

At the core, this entire “Illegal is Illegal” issue is about racism, and about using racism to achieve personal political power.

Legal or illegal, all human beings deserve respect and fair treatment.

Dignidad, have you read the responses to the the WaPo articles when the paper has covered immigration topics? The response section has become a cesspool of hate. I wish readers who oppose illegal immigration would address the hatred that roils over there. It would make their claims that there is no racism, xenophobia, hatred, intolerance involved in the “anti-illegal immigration, the law is the law is the law” side. If they (the reasonable faction) don’t take the spewers to task, the vocal side (the haters) will appear to be their voice as well.

If you haven’t read these types of comments, I’d suggest you search a couple articles about immigration and PWC or Manassas – or immigration in general – and read the comments that accompany the articles. I realize that the WaPo has a national readership and some of these responses are probably generated by some hate group’s email loop but there are some predictable local folks posting there as well.

That so much vitriol can be spewed at immigrants who are here legally belies the argument that following the law is the main concern of the anti-immigration forces.

You call it hate, I call it boiling anger at the way our politicians sentence many of us to compete with or live sandwhiched in between people who break our rules, lower our wages, and make our neighborhoods bad to live in.

If the “hate” you speak of really existed and was really the raw racism you claim, it wouldn’t be hard for someone to blow up a day labor spot or drive by shooting or come out of a car with pipes and beat people. None of that is happening. What you have is a rhetorically violent anger and frustration that our politicians continue to lie to us and enforce only the rules in America that protect the wealthy’s interest.

There needs to be a more aggressive and assertive grassroots strategy that will move forward to make and win the moral, practical and political arguments for undocumented immigrants to gain a path to becoming documented or to become citizens. The right-wing xenophobes have too often presented themselves as mainstream defenders of the American way of life, but they are nothing of the sort. They use lofty arguments to hide their disdain for immigrants from Latin America. Their dreadful policy goal is to drive immigrant families, most of them Latino, out of this country. They claim that by enforcing the laws on the books, immigrants will self-deport. But there is nothing humane about a deliberate strategy of repression aimed at driving 12 million undocumented immigrants and their millions of U.S. citizen children and loved ones out of the country. This is nothing less than a nonviolent form of ethnic cleansing. They also believe that over 12 million undocumented immigrants can be deported. I have read posts on bvbl where some ignorant statements have been posted like “I’ll put two or three in my car and drive them to the border”. That is the biggest bunch of nonsense I have ever heard.

I wonder how historians will look back and judge the treatment of immigrants and their families. I think it could be one of the defining issues of our time. Will we be known as a generation take took action with smart policies and humane treatment or will we be known as a generation of intolerance and repression? Will we as a society rise above the hostility that drives this racially charged issue, or will we give in to coded language, politics and the deepening of racial bias? Will our national leaders fix a broken system? Will polarization widen the space currently being filled by anti-immigrant state and local measures? Will future generations look back at ours as the generation that joined the great American tradition of hard-won victories over the politics of exclusion? Will our generation be known as the generation that gave in to the forces of that were determined to drive millions of vulnerable immigrant workers and families from our midst?

It’s up to us in the caring community to defend human rights and to identify the stakes. If we do so, then maybe we will build the power and build the unity to bend the curve of history toward justice for all.

Like Scott Nolan said ” Legal or illegal, all human beings deserve respect and fair treatment.”

Rick Bentley, big business has routinely stuck it to the small guy. The textile mills in New England moved South where there were no unions in order to pay smaller wages. Then they moved out of the country. You see that happening now with IT jobs. It’s easy to scapegoat the other little guy (the Hispanic neighbor who is “taking your job”) but harder to take on large industries and your own government. Big business/government likes for you to blame your neighbor because it takes the heat off of the true controllers of your fate.

The discussions that should be taking place in this country should involve how we are going to fit into a global economy. How do our citizens maintain a certain standard of living? IOW, larger issues than have been addressed by our BOCS.

I’ll step on the third rail and ask…what do you do if jobs in your field will never pay more? What do you do if you live in one of the area’s cheapest subdivisions and prices continue to slide downwards and crime continues to increase? At some point you have to decide to accept the fact that life won’t continue on as you’ve known it or you have to address the larger issues at play and not merely the guy next door.

Adding additions to houses for use as low cost rentals is to help legal immigrants? Don’t kid yourselves, those centers would certainly be used to obtain legal citizenship for those already in the country illegally. This is a Trojan horse. Look at the organizations that are promoting this. None have come out against illegal immigration to any degree.

“All humans deserve respect and fair treatment” So what’s your view on throwing someone in jail for years for breaking a law? I guess you consider that disrespectful. I consider it fair treatment.

I didnt really see anything on the other blog about this. Walter Tejada is one of the most bigoted people in politics. You all think corey stuart is bad, this guy has been known to advocate lawlessness and he just loves the illegals. he’s the biggest advocate for open borders there is. MWB loves this guy.

I would agree with SA on this one, it’s likely a “trojan horse” issue to assist everyone, including illegals. I would not be surprised if they would help anyone regardless of documentation. I dont want my tax dollars supporting this initiative unless there are controls in place that can be monitored to ensure undocumented persons do not take advantage.

Hi–Look, I think we all have to acknowledge that the BVBL folks are simply anti-immigrant and racist, not “pro legal immigrant” as they sometimes claim. They are using this issue as a create a space where racist, anti-immigrant bashing, and hate crimes are socially acceptable.

Just look at the comments here– NO ONE from the anit-immigrant side wants to talk about the issue you’ve raised here: that this is a program for LEGAL immigrants. They want to shift the focus, pretending that anything that might help a LEGAL immigrant may actually be used to help someone who is here without authorization. The same nonsense was spewed on Leteicq’s site earlier this week when there was discussion of updating short-term work visas.

The problem here, like the comment from Elvis above, is that this group of people has no interest in knowing or understanding the laws. They whine for “controls” and “monitors” that already exist because they want to hurt immigrants in general.

Censored, I did not see the comments, but I’ve seen comments before.Some are completely unacceptable. I have to agree with Rick Bentley, there is a boiling anger in good, kind people who don’t like how their communities have changed.
You are so right about big business sticking it to the little guy! We have to start going after employers that are employing illegal labor. That doesn’t mean that we excuse the guy next door from breaking the law.
If the jobs in one field never go past a certain ceiling, that leaves an individual with the dilemma of looking for another field. How many people start out in low paying jobs and then move on?
I agree with Scott Nolan that all people should be treated respectfully and fairly. Included in respect is expecting each person to abide by the rule of law and allowing them to suffer the consequences of their own decisions. There is no need to be nasty, just firm.
Marie, the situation that illegal immigrants have put themselves in is very sad. It is heartbreaking. I’m sorry that they made the decisions they did. However, deliberately enforcing laws is not inhumane. If the laws are not enforced, illegal immigration will never stop. We must have expectations of legal behavior, not acceptance of disrespect for our culture and sovereignty.
I think History will look back on this time proudly and see that the majority of Americans stood firm and didn’t give in to a self-serving minority.

Sara, if you shake BVBL from your thoughts, it might be easier to read with a more open mind.

Diginidad,
I agree that the situation with undocumented immigrants is sad. Yes, they made the decision to come while the federal government turned its head. What is inhumane is to have NO immigration policy, to want to enforce laws that have not been enforced in years, to ignore that fact that the borders are open and then to want to do horrible things to those who cross. For years undocumented immigrants were allowed to cross, work as a migrant workers in back breaking hot weather to pick our crops. After 3 months they got papers. Take a trip to the San Fernando Valley in California and you will never eat a strawberry or a salad again without the image of migrant workers picking our crops. They have terrible working conditions, live in deplorable quarters and get paid very little so we “Americans” can reap the benefit. Many of them are without papers. Our government set this all up. Now we must do something humane to deal with this and resolve issue and deportation will never work, nor do we have the money to do it.

It seemed to be a non issue while our big beautiful homes were being built, our roads were being built, our concrete poured, our houses cleaned, our lawns mowed and our yards landscaped. This issue did not occur overnight. It has been a process and there needs to be a humane and fair process to resolve this issue.

The IRS and Social Security Administration have reported that billions upon billions of dollars have been paid in federal tax, FICA and Medicare tax. In addition, state taxes have been paid, sales tax, real estate tax and on and on. The people who have paid deserve to receive documents. I do not promote amnesty but if someone has been law abiding (remember crossing the border is a civil not a criminal offense), paying taxes and being a good resident then I say let them stay. They are contributing.

Most of the immigrants I know, both legal and undocumented, love this country and they want to be citizens. They want to make contributions. Mostly they want a better life for their children. Who can fault them for that? Don’t we all want better lives for our children?

This is a complicated issue at best but no useful purpose is served by the right-wing xenophobes have too often presented themselves as mainstream defenders of the American way of life. They do all they can to divide and to polarize.

Censored bybvbl, 1. June 2008, 9:44
Good Post, Censored

It’s sad that the Anti-Immigrant haters and the political opportunists who exploit them have now merged into one.

It’s sad that some of these people feel they cannot effectively argue their position as white males, so they pretend to be immigrants when they post here anonymously.

But I’m most disappointed that the sheep and the political opportunists who believed this was “THE ISSUE THIS YEAR” have been proven wrong, and yet they still cling to the hate.

Don’t you get it people, hate is only necessary if this is your election issue. It’s not your election issue anymore. So why indulge in and apologize for hate. What good does it do you at this point?

Dignidad: I was responding to the posts here, not on BVBL. And while I know that the BVBL folks are among the worst of lot, sadly, they are not the only perpetrators promoting anti-immigrant hate.

I also have to add, that, as an expert in this field, most people who “are strongly opposed to undocumented immigration,” are also poorly informed about why the undocumented are here. The undocumented issue is one that our country has created, it benefits American citizens economically tremendously, and to turn on immigrants after we’ve reaped the benefits of their labor, most of which has been highly exploitive, is beyond comprehension.

Immigration laws have have not always been enforced at a level that was sufficient, but illegals have always known that they were sneaking in. We didn’t just start having raids, they’ve been happening all along. They have increased since the massive protests of 2006. It is the height of arrogance to sneak into another country and be indignant when you are expected to follow the laws and respect cultural norms.
As for working conditions, this is exacerbated by the presence of easy illegal labor. If the cycle of illegal immigration doesn’t end, the working conditions in the fields may never improve. I think that the only amnesty that should be granted is to illegal workers who turn in their employers,who would then be financially responsible for them until they are naturalized. If the employers start having real consequences for their greed, cheap labor will stop being so cheap.
WhyHereWhyNow, do you have special powers that allows you to see when someone is pretending to be an immigrant? Sounds like stereotyping and rejection of diversity of thought.

Every time I watch a DVD movie I see the same FBI Warning about imprisonment and fines for copying, yet I don’t know if the law has ever been enforced. Does that mean the law is null and void? How about all the other laws that are on the books which don’t get enforced on a regular basis? If you’re going to single out the non-enforcement of the immigration law, then how about starting a campaign dealing with ALL the un-enforced laws. At least this would give your lawyers something to do while they’re waiting for a profiling case.

Sara,
You hit the nail on the head. I do not understand the lack of understanding regarding this issue. You said in a few short words what I wanted to convey in my earlier post.

Dignidad
There are employers who have sponsored undocumented workers, are willing to pay them good wages, provide health care and be financially responsible but the damn system does not work. Why do people have to wait 10-15 and 20 years? This system has to be fixed and fixed soon.

Did I miss something?
To get U.S citizenship you need to have a green card first for at least five years. If you are here illegally, there is no way you can get U.S. citizenship. The lead of the story is very clear about helping “eligible area immigrants obtain U.S. citizenship”.

Second Alamo
I am sure that you have broken the law at one time or another and have gotten away with it. Ever speed? We all sin and fall short but there is a thing call FOREGIVENESS. Do you know what that word means?????? Just in case you do not this is how Websters defines sin.

sin (sin)
noun

1. an offense against God, religion, or good morals
2. the condition of being guilty of continued offense against God, religion, or good morals
3. an offense against any law, standard, code, etc.

It’s articles like this that expose the real agenda of nativists. Even them most prominent organizations are clear that they support less legal migration, too. How can you be in favor of legal migration, as the “anti-illegal” crowd often says, and not stand up against this hate. Good post.

The first paragraph in the Post article states:

Immigrant advocates and officials from Maryland and Virginia said yesterday that they will seek $15 million to help tens of thousands of eligible area immigrants obtain U.S. citizenship.

However, the respondents seem to be unable to read and understand the word “eligible” so they spew their usual vitriol. Frankly, I’d rather see the hardworking eligible immigrants become voting citizens and see the WaPo respondents go back under their rocks. IMO our society is bettered by having more of the former and fewer of the latter.

Controlling business in a republic such as ours is always a delicate balancing act. When we start controlling business, there is always someone out there hollering socialism. If you let business run unfettored, then greed, being the human condition, rears its ugly head.

The little guys, us, are the ones caught in the middle. Jobs are outsourced to pay lower wages, companies move off-shore to avoid taxes, undocumented workers are hired to save a buck or 2, Are these really areas we have much control over? Who can control it other than the government? When we say ‘let’s go after company X,’ what do we really mean?

So, tell me how a proposed “pathway to citizenship” works…how do we determine who has been here long enough to qualify? There are literally hundreds of illegal or undocumented people in Prince William that work as day laborers, so they won’t have tax returns or property tax paperwork to demonstrate their residency here so exactly, how do we determine who is qualified for the amnesty or pathway? If we can’t (as Marie says, deport 12 million people, how do we classify, research and determine the eligibility status of 12 million people? How do we seal the borders on the day we pass the legislation to prevent throngs of immigrants from rushing in to America to take advantage of any legistation? Its easy to dismiss one side and propose grandiose plans or ideas of grandeur but when the plan has to be implemented, what has anyone heard from the proponets of this side?

Hey Marie, perhaps the next time I’m stopped for speeding or driving without a license (examples only) I’ll just ask for forgiveness as you suggest. Yeah, Right! The courts must hand out some form of punishment for breaking our law. Forgiveness isn’t one of them.

BTW, would these centers only support Latino’s? Based on the supporting organizations I would have a hard time believing they have any other ethnic group’s interest at heart. Why do you think they need more centers? If they want to help then they should be under the control of the INS not CASA or such.

Moon-howler, the federal government may be the only means of regulating some industries and I don’t know how successful it can be since many multi-national companies can just choose to leave the US. If we look at the situation realistically, we (the US) may need to form a union with Canada and Mexico (and perhaps other countries) in order to compete internationally. That probably won’t bode well for wages here, at least initially. (We little people will just have to vote with our pocketbooks in many instances.)

I think in order to secure our borders, we’ll really have to look at what measures we would take if we were at war and be willing to fund the technology or cost that’s neccessary and that would still allow neccessary movement of goods and people. (Don’t expect much from the feds. Hurricane Katrina showed how worthless our response system was/is. And don’t expect much from the anti-immigration crowd which is generally the low tax crowd as well. They will probably be unwilling to pay more to see border control done. The pot of money – ha -that sits in the PWC treasury for their purpose is pitiful indeed.)

Lucky Duck, perhaps visas would be necessary for the day-labors until their experience/work history could be tallied. Some means of identification should be used. How would you suggest securing the borders?

Thank you Marie for your comments. Its a learning experience to read what you have to say…and the kind and loving way that you say it!!!!

Hey second Alamo……you left off those mattress tags…….watch out people who have removed the tags from their mattresses..federal offense…..you might do time, or better yet get deported..And when you do if you do, dont look under the bed………Leiecq may be under your bed!!!! listening hohoho come to think of it…….there’s some laws still on the Virginia books about bedtime activities……..even if you are married……..this would be a great thing for Stewart and Letiecq to go after!! you go guys!!!!!!!

LuckyDuck, Day laborers are the tiniest sliver of the illegal immigrant population. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have steady work and some kind of paper trail. They wouldn’t be contributing $7 billion a year to the SSA coffers if they didn’t.

So it seems a bit odd to suggest that the problems documenting the residency of day laborers should be the dealbreaker for a policy affecting the overwhelming remainder of illegal immigrants. We might also want to consider the fact that around 45 % of illegal immigrants actually entered the United States on tourist, student, worker, and other visas and then fell out of status. So there is likely to be documentation for millions that is the most official possible. All the non-border crossers seem to be invisible to the anti-illegal immigrant crowd, even though in this area they are everywhere.

Also a “path to citizenship” is just that, a path. It can start whereever one chooses it to start and doesn’t involve a move from illegal status to citizenship without some intermediate status. One approach geared to fairness might be to expedite the immigration of all the people who have been following legal channels, eg. the thousands of foreign fiancees etc. Then for the illegal population, developing a comprehensive guest worker program that is less cumbersome than the extremely limited we have now but with safeguards for both American workers and the undocumented population.

In terms of the issue of securing the border against a new flood if such a policy shift occurred, I would agree that is a valid point. Except for one thing: There is not a realistic proposal to secure the border at the moment. Even assuming that DHS is able to block lawsuits based on property rights, environmental damage, and American Indian rights, the border fence now proposed covers less than half of the near 2,000-mile boundary. The fence is a total charade. There is no money or manpower to effectively police the limited fencing that would be built and no end of the incentives to breach the barriers that would exist. So your question applies as much now as if a hypothetical “path” were implemented.

Gregg Reynolds is at it again. His hate and disdain for Greg Letique is both pathetic and shameful as it reflects on his sick and convoluted state of mind. Its true, but if G.L. were not in the picture, Reynolds would not have a life. Greg Letique is an honest and honorable man and has done a great service for PW county despite the likes of Reynolds and people like him. Mr. Letique does not deserve the constant hateful barage that is slung at him by Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds must be a miserable person who is obsessed and consumed with the poison of hate. Get over your hate, Mr. Reynolds, and get a life.

maribel, am I missing something? Is Kenneth Reynolds really Gregg Reynolds, or was that a Freudian slip or hallucination from consuming some poison yourself? Hard to tell. I note you profess a deep admiration for Greg Letiecq, yet you spell his name wrong three times. Name the substance, I’m curious.

Sara, it seems like every comment against illegals is taken as anti-immigrant and racist. That’s a very effective tactic because as a nation we’ve successfully spent the last several decades teaching and promoting racial and cultural tolerance. Nobody wants to be perceived as racist. The bad habit of making accusations of the heart rather than arguing the point is indicative of a weak argument. As an expert in the field, I would think you would have a more substantial argument.
On this issue I just don’t think my tax dollars should go towards this.

Leila, yes, day laborers are a tiny slice of the pie, I was using them as one of many examples of issues that have to addressed. Your post has some good and interesting commnets. Your comment of the vast majority of illegal immigrants being hard working brings up another issue. What paperwork are they using for employment? What do you do with all the illegal immigrants who have used someone else’s SSN or Identity? Obviously this is a cirminal event (understanding that illegal border crossing is a civil offense) and must be addressed. Are these people to be considered inelgible for any pathway because of the misery they have caused innocent American citizens? Lots of questions…too little answers.

I don’t think that any border solution can be done without the military…unless the Border Patrol is infused with millions of dollars.

Leila said:

“Also a “path to citizenship” is just that, a path. It can start whereever one chooses it to start and doesn’t involve a move from illegal status to citizenship without some intermediate status. One approach geared to fairness might be to expedite the immigration of all the people who have been following legal channels, eg. the thousands of foreign fiancees etc.”

I agree with you Leila. Now this is something that a lot of the amnesty advocates overlook. My wife came here on a fiancee visa and it took us a long time and a lot of money. I can tell you this – she and others like her resent the idea of people who didn’t wait their fair turn and want to just be granted amnesty. We would have loved it if we didn’t have to wait the 2 years for her to come here. The only amnesty I would support would be where there was a very lengthy (at least 5 years) path to citizenship. After all, that is what my wife has to endure, so why should someone else who has been here illegally get better treatment?

The downside of speeding up the process for current legal immigration (which I agree it would be nice to see it speeded up) – where is the money going to come from to do this? I don’t see it happening without a huge injection of money and a complete revamp of the whole USCIS system. I’ve said this in other threads – the current system is largely paper driven and not highly computerized and things get lost all the time (happened in my wife’s case and caused us to have to completely refile – along with paying fees all over again as well as wasted time). I do personally think they need to get their act together and get their system to the 2000’s, instead of using their current 1980’s technology. I just wonder where it will come from.

Anyway, for me personally – I wouldn’t support any amnesty unless those who are currently in line waiting get priority treatment and the “path to citizenship” is at least as long if not longer than current legal immigrants have to endure. And I’ll tell you this – my wife and friends of hers who have come legally – highly resent illegal immigrants all of the sudden wanting legal status – who did not wait their turn in line. I know others will say they endured much hardship coming to the USA by being smuggled in, etc., but it does an injustice to the many millions like my wife who came here the legal way and had to endure lengthy waits, FBI checks, interviews at the USA consulate in China, etc. etc. In FACT, for someone from China to come here on a tourist VISA, it is an unbelievable amount of work to get one, because the USA wants to be sure they won’t intentionally stay here after the tourist VISA expires. In fact, it is very very difficult to get a USA tourist VISA for a Chinese citizen. And I can guarantee that it is all because of illegal immigrants overstaying tourist VISAs. Again, many legal immigrants are mighty unhappy with the talk of amnesty, when because of all the illegal immigration – they have problems even being able to get family members over here on a tourist VISA for a short visit.

Leila,

Great post! ICAM.

LuckyDuck, the military is busy. Good luck when even members of Guard and Reserve units are mobilized for repeat tours in an unwinnable war. It just makes my point, the border is not going to be secured. The solution has to come some other way.

Some of the fake SSNs are made up, some are stolen, some are from dead people. In all cases, there can be damage. I would guess that such identity theft is as rampant among other groups, from organized crime to your basic American teenager. Try googling around a bit regarding fake IDs. In any case, I agree with you that using a fake SS# is an abuse, although personally I understand the crime more when it is done to gain employment for survival and not because you can’t wait a couple of years to indulge in the Jello shot promo down the street. But again, this is one reason to try to offer a legal alternative, ie. a guest worker program that would involve specially created ID numbers that would intentionally not duplicate current SS numbers. I don’t think it would be pragmatic to make this a reason (absent other sorts of criminal activity) to deny people a path. Every form of forgiveness has its costs, eg. the amnesty for Vietnam-era draft evaders. Should we not have reconciled with those Americans because it was unfair to vets? Also, for the sake of argument, what draconian punishment would you advise for mommy and daddy’s little darlings when they do the precise same thing for the sake of a buzz? Identity theft is no joke. I am not minimizing it. But one way out of the mass abuse of SS numbers is to create an alternative.

LuckyDuck, the military is busy.

Regarding illegal immigrants, some of the fake SSNs are made up, some are stolen, some are from dead people. In all cases, there can be damage. I would guess that such identity theft is as rampant among other groups, from organized crime to your basic American teenager. Try googling around a bit regarding fake IDs. In any case, I agree with you that using a fake SS# is an abuse, although personally I understand the crime more when it is done to gain employment for survival and not because you can’t wait a couple of years to indulge in the Jello shot promo down the street. But again, this is one reason to try to offer a legal alternative, ie. a guest worker program that would involve specially created ID numbers that would intentionally not duplicate current SS numbers. I don’t think it would be pragmatic to make this a reason (absent other sorts of criminal activity) to deny people a path. Every form of forgiveness has its costs, eg. the amnesty for Vietnam-era draft evaders. Should we not have reconciled with those Americans because it was unfair to vets? Also, for the sake of argument, what draconian punishment would you advise for mommy and daddy’s little darlings when they do the precise same thing for the sake of a buzz? Identity theft is no joke. I am not minimizing it. But one way out of the mass abuse of SS numbers is to create an alternative.

My apologies for the double post. Was having connection problems.

Admin, I tried to post regarding a series on the new sanctuary movement published by the Washington Times, but it doesn’t seem that my comment will show up. If it is being held because of my duplicating hiccup above, I petition for its release because I think people would really be interested in the articles. Or I can try altering the comment and reposting if you prefer.

My own view is that I am aligned with Anon@19:34 in that I feel it is an injustice to grant amnesty to those currently here illegally over those who are waiting out the immigration system to come here the legal way. If we need the labor (and we do) then we should make it as easy as possible for those to come here to work, but not necessarily for a pathway to citizenship WITHOUT consideration for those waiting for the process to complete their applications, not to mention those in other countries that do not share a common land border with us and wait for a lottery visa. That is how my family came here. No special consideration for those who came here illegally over those currently in the process.

We disagree on the use of ID theft by illegal immigrants. If YOU were a victim and had to go through the misery of straightening out your credit or life after someone used your identity, I am confident you would not minimize the act for any reason. I think this act should preclude an illegal immigrant from any work visa and pathway to citizenship.

By the way, regarding the military, do we really need all of those troops in Germany and Japan? The cold war is well over and those nations are our staunch allies.

I am all for assimilation of folks who are here legally. The Catholic Church in particular has been a staunch advocate for assisting all immigrants–I know the Benedictine Sisters here are heavily involved in teaching English to Spanish-speaking folks. My family gives a good deal of money to the Church, and I have no problem with that sort of outreach. But I do not see how it should be put on the backs of taxpayers to pay for such an “assimilation” program. I don’t trust it, I don’t trust Tejada at all, and I don’t think our tax dollars are well spent in this way. This should be the job of local outreach organizations–churches and the like–and I willingly donate for such programs already.

“Federal money” doesn’ t just fall from the sky. It won’t come from big business, it won’t come from the immigrants themselves, it will fall squarely on the backs–as usual–of the middle class. Gas is over $4 a gallon, food prices are skyrocketing, we’re stuck in an endless war overseas. Surely this cannot take priority when many native-born American citizens can barely make it on food stamps these days.

LuckyDuck, I was not minimizing the grief caused by identity theft or use of fraudulent documents. I was just pointing out it’s hardly a practice limited to illegal immigrants and that the SSNs are created in different ways. In any case, from what I understand, the major practitioners of identity theft in the US are not illegal immigrants seeking work. They are professional criminals as in organized crime looking to steal your money.

If you think that any use of fraudulent documents should preclude an illegal immigrant from a work visa then we are back to square one with millions of people here who will either have to be regularized in some way or deported. Mass deportation isn’t going to happen. ICE can’t even handle the people from the limited number of busts they do now. I also doubt that there will be a massive crackdown with extreme penalties for all employers in all sectors. So you remain with the status quo.

I’ll agree with you Leila, that professional criminals are probably the most users of identity theft…and what do we do with them when caught? We punish them, we put them in jail. We do not just wipe the slate clean and give them a fresh start which it appears the way you state we must go with illegal aliens – and we disagree greatly on that. Today, if an illegal alien is caught using ID Fraud, they are arrested and put in jail. Why should that just be dropped if any legislation is passed? What other type of crime should we forgive?

I don’t believe that the vast majority of illegals use ID theft, some do, but from what I have observed, many work off the books. So those who commit ID fraud need to pay the price that a common criminal pays today, tomorrow or next week if caught. In addition, those individuals who engage in such unlawful activity should be excluded from any amnest or pathway proposed. IMHO.

Excerpt from Management Issues “Wetback Wealth” by Max McKeown

“Or, as the legislative director for the Texas Farm Bureau put it: “either you obey the law and you watch your crop rot in the fields or you attempt to try to get the crop out and run the risk of being hit by the federal government.”

So instead of celebrating our luck in attracting those with a desire to work, a belief in the economic dream and a willingness to take risks that reinvigorates our entrepreneurial core, we have allowed fear of the unknown, petty narrow-mindedness and the instincts of the playground bully to create an irrational distrust – even hatred – of those who create our wealth.

The latter-day minute-men on the Arizona/Mexican border are the descendants of immigrants in an immigrant democracy who – if they could stop hunting hard workers like rabbits or jackals long enough to think about it – ought to be thanking each new arrival for showing the initiative to help make America a better place.

In fact, we should all be a little more grateful to each of the millions of people who do the work that supports our lives of luxury. Remember – innovation is difference – and people create wealth.”

LuckyDuck, I don’t think most illegal immigrants who are caught with illegal documents serve time in jail in the sense you are suggesting. I would guess most charged with simple possession (not manufacture or distribution) are held and then deported. But perhaps you know better. I guess I do draw a distinction between identity theft by organized crime in order to rob someone’s bank account, credit cards etc. and illegal immigrants’ use of fake SSNs to work. It’s the same way I would make a distinction also with the countless millions of American teenagers who have used fake IDs to drink and who also, at times, are hurting innocents in how they obtain their fake IDs. If the crime is the crime is the crime, regardless of impact and motivation, then I assume you advocate throwing all those teens in prison as well. Sorry Jenna B. Well, that should be easy, such teens are in the same bars week after week. I doubt most illegal immigrants work off the books by the way. The contributions to SSN are just too high and the companies busted for illegal workers are often some of the best known in their areas.

I understand you think all of the illegal immigrants who have acted unlawfully in this way should be excluded from any lenient pathway. So how many does that leave? Very very few. And what do you propose for the, say, 80-90% who have used or created some kind of fraudulent document in some way? You haven’t answered it.

Thinking more about how upset I would indeed be if my SSN were used by someone else, I found this really disturbing story. It seems the government is deliberately not notifying people.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

One comment from the story: “That information is considered to be tax return information, and it’s governed under the Internal Revenue code,” said Social Security’s Mark Lassiter. “There are strict limitations on disclosure. Can someone see if anyone else has reported earnings under their Social Security number? The answer would be no.”"

The comments on how this information is also not revealed in credit reports are especially alarming. The article is well worth reading to the shocker at the end. Sigh.

And with the illegals come gangs. Check out the morning news. Why the shooter could be working in your home today!

Second Alamo,
THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GANGS!!! It is nothing new. When I was in high school in the 60’s there were gangs. Some of them were Hells Angels, Crypts, Bloods, Greasers, KKK, American Nazi Party and so on. Do I like it? NO. Would I like to see them arrested for criminal activity? YES.

There you go again with your scare tactics.

Mr. Second Alamo,
I am saddened about the loss of life and the death of Omar Florencio-Vasquez, who was only 24. What a tradgedy for him and his family. I hope whomever did this and his sidekicks are caught.

It also saddens me for people like you who insinuate that “illegals” are in gangs. That is just not the truth. Yes, there are some in gangs but for the most part they are not. Like I said earlier there have always been gangs and you try to make points by trying to instil irrational fear.

Leila, there is a difference in making up a birthdate on an ID to get into a bar as opposed to adopting someone else’s identity for work or credit to include a mortgage and loans. Don’t you agree with that? Changing the birthdate on your ID to get into a bar doesn’t change someone else’s credit score. Under Virginia Law, using that type of ID is not fraud, the person is charged with other criminal violations – misdemeanors, if caught.

Obtaining a paycheck, bank account, mortgage, car loan and other such financial gains using someone else’s identity is Fraud under Virginia law. There is the difference in the two examples you try to compare – there is no financial gain in the first.

Surely you admit there is a significant difference in the two actions you have attempted to compare.

I don’t know the percentage of Illegal aliens using someone else’s ID and 90% seems high. But if legislation comes from the federal government in the next President’s term (and I hope and believe it will do so) then those who apply and have used identity fraud and theft should not be part of the plan and be denied permanent residency. I hope this answers your question.

Leila, I don’t think using a fake SSN to gain employment is any less materialistic for anyone than a person who can’t wait a couple of years to indulge in the Jello shot promo down the street. Many illegals say they come here for a better life, why don’t they just wait the 20 years they need to like anyone who who makes plans and works towards them? The value in life is not what we have, it’s how we live it.

Marie,

Suit yourself if you prefer that the 10 Hispanic males were all legal residents, then that just makes it even more disgusting! Oh, and because there has always been gangs I guess adding a few more isn’t a problem. That is one hell of a twisted logic!

LuckyDuck – I think your feelings regarding amnesty folks not getting ahead of people already in line are a lot like most of my wife’s friends who also came here legally. At least in my wife’s case, every friend of hers already here, or those in China that she knows that are in the process of coming here, very much resent this idea of amnesty as far as the possibility of people being granted amnesty “cutting the line in front of them” and more possibly, making it even harder for them to come here! In fact, there is a theory that granting amnesty will cause immigration to make it harder for other legal immigrants to come here, as the quotas will drop even further than what they are currently! So how is that fair at all to those people?

I also agree with your comments regarding id theft. I hope none of us here ever have to experience someone stealing our social security number and credit. For my job I require a Dept. of Defense security clearance. It means I have to have a good credit rating. There have been stories about people in my profession LOSING their security clearances, AND their jobs, because someone stole their social security number, and ended up ruining their credit rating! The Dept. of Defense can be very picky about who it gives security clearances to, and it is hard case to fight even if your credit is stolen and ruined.

So, what I’m getting at, is I agree with you – any immigrants who engaged in credit theft/social security theft, should NOT be granted amnesty. It is plain and simple fraud, and it also ruins people’s lives. What if it caused someone who was buying a new house not to be able to get that house? There are countless ramifications of credit/id theft, and for those who make it sound like it is the same as forging an id to get into a bar for underage drinking, they are sadly missing the point. I don’t care that they did it to get a job that they could not get otherwise. It is another example of at times an attitude of thinking only about themselves, and not thinking about other people’s lives they are ruining. So what I’m saying is, I definitely agree with the idea that anyone who engaged in id theft/credit theft should not be granted amnesty. Really, they ought to be thrown in jail in my opinion! If it sounds harsh, they should have thought about that before they commited the crime! Somehow, for them to steal someone’s social security number and/or credit, and for there to be no consequences, just doesn’t strike me as very fair. If I did that, I’d expect to be punished severely, probably including jail time.

Dignidad,

I really hope your last post is sarcasm. A 20 years wait makes all the difference in what you can and cannot do work-wise. What you can easily do at 20 becomes much more difficult at 40, especially if your work depends a great deal on physical labor.

I am not advocating that people come here illegally, but there are a few realities that need to be dealt with.

Emma – Actually the Benedictine Sisters in Manassas (BEACON) offer a wide range of services including free ESOL classes (not just for Hispanic immigrants – there are quite a few Asians in the classes too), as well as a program for somone wanting to become a nurse practitioner – a free English class that teaches medical terminology. I know, because my wife was a senior nurse in China, but it is hard for her to get accredited here in the USA (for one thing she has to take the nursing cetification exam which is very difficult when your English is not so good). She is getting ready to start with BEACON their medical terminology class, and then she would enroll in a 1 year program at a local college to get her nurse practitioner license. Hopefully in the long run she could again become a registered nurse although I believe that to be a good 5 years off for her at least at this point – although experience as a nurse practitioner could accelerate her knowledge of English medical terminology so she could pass the registed nursing license exam (NCLEX).

Anyway, I definitely agree – assimilation programs should be left to organizations such as BEACON, rather than being paid for by the taxpayers. I’m sure there are many other programs such as BEACON – but they seem to be a good one in the Manassas area.

How about a 20-25 year prison sentence for identity theft? I try to shred every paper that has my husband’s or my name on it but even then, I still feel we are very exposed.

I guess I don’t care about the ethnicity of some scum bag who steals identity, SS number, credit cards or other personal information. Jail time works regardless. I would also expect to be notified.

Moon-howler – I definitely am very diligent about shredding too. I hear too many cases of id theft, it is very scary. In fact, I check my credit report monthly to insure there’s nothing strange on it, given that my security clearance (and therefore my job) depends on having a nearly spotless credit rating. Although unfortunately, by the time it were to show up on my credit record (any id theft) it would be at the point that much time and effort would need to be expended to get that removed, and at the very least my security clearance would probably be suspended until it was conclusively proved that the bad stuff on my record was id theft related. So I’m very very paranoid about credit theft actually, and take fairly extreme measures to safeguard my credit rating.

As far as notification, it isn’t only the fault of the government (although they are plenty to blame). The credit reporting agencies are just as much to blame, and they also make it EXTREMELY difficult to erase negative reports on your credit record, which are the result of credit theft. This is due to the greediness of our bank/credit card industry. In fact, it is the same greediness as that which caused the subprime loan industry mess. So I blame the banks/credit reporting agencies just as much as I blame the government – as no credit reporting agency seems to care about people who’s credit has been stolen. I’ve read too many cases where people who’ve had that happen spend YEARS getting their credit history repaired. Why should it be so hard? Because the banks/credit reporting agencies make it hard – because they are greedy and just don’t care. I know a year ago or so there was a good article in the Wash. Post about a Manassas area woman who went to Prince William Hospital, and an employee at the hospital (actually a contractor employee there) stole her credit and ruined her credit rating. She only found out about it a year later when her credit was ruined. Since then she and her husband have been struggling to repair their credit but are getting zero assistance from the banks/credit reporting agencies. Of course they are suing Prince William Hospital, but they are washing their hands of it since they claim it was a contract employee, and it is the contracting agencies fault. Anyway, I’m just using this to illustrate how hard it is to get one’s credit cleaned up after this happens, and how it isn’t all the government’s fault. I blame the greedy banks more than anything else. In fact, I blame them for the subprime mortgage mess and what they’ve done to the economy/housing market.

Anyway, my other point is, there are serious consequences to id theft/fraud. And I don’t care who does it – I agree – they need to be tossed in jail for a very long time (whether they are a US Citizen, a legal immigrant permanent resident, or an illegal immigrant). And if they happen to be an illegal immigrant hoping for amnesty – TOO BAD – you just lost your chance! In my opinion they don’t deserve it – I don’t care whether they did it because they needed a job to feed their family. I’m sure they weren’t at all thinking about the hardship it caused to the person who’s social security number they stole.

And I really hope the number of 90% quoted somewhere above (90% of illegal immigrants use fraudulent social security numbers) isn’t true. But if it is, then again, I say too bad. I have a big feeling that anyone who’s credit has been stolen, would not have any sympathy at all for whoever it was that stole their credit. In the case of an illegal immigrant, I’m sure they would not be in favor of that person getting ANY form of amnesty or “path to citizenship”. Citizenship is something that needs to be earned, and anyone breaking the law by stealing something from someone else (in this case their social security number and their credit), doesn’t have the right to earn citizenship, if you ask me.

http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/agendas/currentagenda.pdf

- Presentation – Illegal Immigration Enforcement Update – Charlie Deane – Police Department

June 3rd 2008

I’m not entirely against this, nor am I really jazzed in favor of it…

Good idea? Seems like one.

However, I wonder where this money could be better spent on actual AMERICANS who are in more need of assistance.

I’m not convinced either way…

The credit bureaus have way too much power. Perhaps I have said that wrong. The information they keep gives others way too much power. What interest rate you pay when financing a new car depends on that credit report. Whether you get a job, a loan, car insurance, a REAL mortgage, etc. are all linked to what’s in your credit report.

I would like to see legislation that limits the power of credit reports and forces the bureaus to clean things up without having to give up your first born. Trying to get information corrected is almost impossible. Often you just give up.

Elena, Elvis,

I, too, am curious why Walter Tejada is being painted as “the most bigoted” guy. He was elected chairman of the Arlington County Board, so he must appeal to many people from Arlington County. Arlington has a long history of diversity and people are pretty accepting of others. I am curious why he would be considered bigoted since most people I know in Arlington wouldn’t elect a bigot to represent them.

Now Prince William County….? Nah….we just won’t go there. Not today.

Wow. You folks have been busy this weekend. I took some time to spend with the kids and now I’m way behind in reading this thread!

Elena, I’m sorry I just don’t agree. At least from China, there is a HUGE HUGE backlog just in the fiancee/marriage VISA area, not to mention other people related to people already here, etc. etc. It is a line, and those who come here illegally are indeed jumping the line. Then they want to be granted amnesty, ahead of those waiting. And I am quite sure, if amnesty goes into affect, the current system will slow down moreso, and those waiting in line will wait even longer as a result. I don’t see any overhaul of USCIS being proposed, and their current system will grind to a hault if the predicted 12 million applications get into that system on top of the current load. Who’s going to foot the bill for the overhaul? The taxpayers obviously. Anyway, again I think it is incredibly unfair to those in line (and you can say there isn’t a line all you want, but my wife waited in line so I know there is) for anyone granted amnesty to be able to obtain residency and citizenship faster than them.

As far as my wife becoming a nurse, despite the fact she has a graduate degree in nursing from China, and was a senior nurse at the hospital there, she has a very long/tough road to climb to be able to do that here. While there is a nursing shortage, no one makes it easy for her to gain certfication here, that’s for sure. You may argue that’s the fault of the nursing industry, and I would agree with you, but the fact is unless she is fluent in English, can easily understand complicated medical terminology that the average layman couldn’t, and can easily get translated records from the schools she attended and her hospital, it is a very tough road to climb. Forget her hospital, they hate hate hate it when the nurses leave there and emigrate to the USA. We’ll never get anything from her hospital, that’s for sure. When she turned in her resignation, they told her she was making a huge mistake going to the USA, and she should rethink it completely. It was clear she’d never get any employment records out of them. Anyway, that is getting off-topic, and not really related to the discussion of amnesty. But I can tell you my wife and her friends (both here in the USA and still in China “in line” waiting to come here) are all very against this notion of amnesty. I would wager there are a lot of other immigrants to the USA who feel the same way. I’m not saying all, but I am saying a sizeable percentage. Maybe of course not legal immigrants from Central/South America, who know or are related to illegal immigrants, obviously.

Moon-howler – you hit the nail on the head – the credit bureaus have way too much power. On top of that they can care less when someone’s credit is messed up through no fault of their own. You are right, from what I’ve heard trying to get your credit cleaned up when the report is erroneous is an almost infinitely impossible task. I’ve read too many horror stories about that. There definitely needs to be legislation limiting their power, but that will never happen. They and the banks have too much power in their lobby with Congress. That power is what led to the whole subprime mortgage fiasco, and is the reason for the most of the foreclosures in Prince William County (not the resolution as some people seem to want to try and get everyone to believe).

Anyway, the fact is, it is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to repair your credit after it is stolen. I agree the system is broke, but good luck getting congress to do anything about it with the powerful banking lobby’s influence. So, again I say, anyone who steals another person’s credit/id/social security number should definitely be denied amnesty, and really thrown in jail for a good long time to boot. I don’t care if they had “good motives” for doing so – such as gaining employment or buying a house. If we say it is OK for people to steal from others (which is what this is – plain and simple theft) then I don’t know where we are headed as a society. I just cringe when I hear some people minimizing this whole identify theft thing – it is a very serious issue and has destroyed a lot of people’s lives. Those doing the stealing seem to not care at all about it – I guess the logic is “every man for himself”!

Elena – in regards to your article about the nurses in the UK recruited from other countries: A good friend of my wife’s from China was recruited to work as a nurse in the UK. She went over there and has been there for several years but is extremely unhappy. They make her work far longer hours than nurses who are UK citizens, and pay her extremely low wages. She often works 16 hour days 6 days a week and again, her pay is lousy. So while this article paints a somewhat rosy picture, it is no wonder at the end of it is the sentence “Ironically, for every two nurses recruited from overseas to work in the United Kingdom, one nurse certified in the United Kingdom emigrates. ” My wife’s friend would like to get out of the UK, but she has not much money because of the low wages she is paid, and can’t afford to do so. For her, the grass definitely was rosier on the other side. I would say the UK has a lot of reform to do in their nursing industry and recruitment of foreign nurses.

At least here in the USA, while they make it hard for foreign nurses to get certified, they at least get paid equal to their American counterparts, and aren’t forced to work inhumane hours like that.

I agree with anon…there should be no “good motives” for stealing someone else’s ID. Those individuals who have committed such acts should not be given a place in any legislation to a pathway to citizenship.

I know of a person who had her identity stolen and she received a tax bill in 2007 for wages she supposedly earned in Chicago in 2006 while working for a construction firm. She has never been to Chicago in her life. She hired a company to research the problem and found out that her ID had been stolen by a person who used it to obtain a job with the construction company. This year (2008) she finally got the IRS to agree that she was not working in two different States on the same days. Now, I don’t know for sure if the other person was in fact an illegal immigrant, but who else would need to steal a SSN for a job?
How can that suspect’s “good motives” for wanting to work ever justify the worry, the frustration and the financial costs this victim went through? The person who committed the ID Fraud and anyone else who did should not be eligible for Citizenship under any legislation.

By the way Leila, you never answered back to me about what other crimes or criminal acts we should waive or wipe clean as long as we are allowing those who have committed ID Fraud or theft off the hook under your logic.

LuckyDuck, I wasn’t avoiding any question. I haven’t had any opportunity today and still don’t. I only *just* managed to eat something today and that was after getting to work at 6:30 am to scramble on some things.
I’m just signing on to let you know I intend to reply. I would say you appear to be deliberately misreading me, but I will address it later. Also you didn’t actually answer my question yet, which was what to do with the majority of illegal immigrants (a number in the millions) who by your criteria would not be eligible for any suggested program because they used fraudulent documents. It takes us back to square one. More tonight, I hope.

Elena, yes in the UK it seems they are creating a subclass of nurses and it is quite like you say – indentured servitude. My wife’s friend had it better as a nurse in China – the wages may be low there, but the hours are pretty much the same as what nurses here in the states work. The UK offered this person higher wages (which she is indeed getting) but they never mentioned the part about 16 hour days, 6 days a week at times! It is easy to offer higher wages than what China offers – my wife was a senior nurse there and only getting about $5000/year – which indeed is a pretty good salary in China. Still, you don’t live too well on $5000/year – even in China. So the UK pays more, but works their foreign nurses like slaves in return! Not a very good deal at all. I guess it is no wonder that half of their foreign nurses choose to leave!

Leila – here’s an idea of what to do with all those people who don’t qualify for amnesty due to identity/credit theft: If they want to make complete restitution to the person who they stole it from – for all their costs of rebuilding their credit and any costs incurred due to loss of job opportunities – I say fine. Of course, they either won’t be able to do that financially, or else would probably be unwilling to do that, since they broke the law in the first place.

And I don’t buy the argument that “it makes too many people to deal with” – that is a large number of illegal immigrants have done this. That’s no excuse to give them a free pass. So if a large number of people shoplift and we can’t prosecute them all and send them to jail – should we let them off? That seems to me to be what is being said. I’m sorry, I can never see a way to allow people who have stolen someone’s identity or social security number to get amnesty. It is rewarding law breaking, and that’s wrong. Lucky Duck’s story of that woman in Chicago is a good example of what happens when someone steals a social security number. I’m sure it wasn’t much fun to fight the IRS on that tax bill, and probably cost that woman a lot of money (and at least a lot of time). How is that fair, and why should the person who did this to her – assuming they are an illegal immigrant (and as LuckyDuck points out – why would a legal immigrant need to do this?) be rewarded with amnesty? I just don’t see how it makes any sense, and again I don’t buy the argument “there are too many immigrants having to steal people’s identity because they have no documentation”.

Leila, 1. June 2008, 19:01

maribel, am I missing something? Is Kenneth Reynolds really Gregg Reynolds, or was that a Freudian slip or hallucination from consuming some poison yourself? Hard to tell. I note you profess a deep admiration for Greg Letiecq, yet you spell his name wrong three times. Name the substance, I’m curious.

Hi Leila, NOPE Im not related to GREGG. I have met him and read his articles in the paper……and he is a real statesman!! And I doubt that he hates anyone……is there anything wrong with providing other views, as Gregg and I do, or is that NOT allowed!!! Why, I even got kicked off their 3-gradish blog….

maribel, 1. June 2008, 18:48

Gregg Reynolds is at it again. His hate and disdain for Greg Letique is both pathetic and shameful as it reflects on his sick and convoluted state of mind. Its true, but if G.L. were not in the picture, Reynolds would not have a life. Greg Letique is an honest and honorable man and has done a great service for PW county despite the likes of Reynolds and people like him. Mr. Letique does not deserve the constant hateful barage that is slung at him by Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds must be a miserable person who is obsessed and consumed with the poison of hate. Get over your hate, Mr. Reynolds, and get a life.

Kenneth Reynolds said: Maribel, Maribel, Maribel, how could you say such mean things about me and Gregg. We’re both providing our views as to what we would want our community to be…and that IS a comunity, not a war zone like it is in Woodbridge and similar places. And I put the blame for this in Corey and Gospel Greg’s lap. And me, why, i’m a wonderful guy, despite my humilty admred and liked by all who know me!!!! I sure dont HATE Gospel Greg and Lt. Corey. I am so disappointed that they use our community to further their goals. We have NEVER had a chairman like Corey……aiming for higher office on the backs of undocumented residentss…..and he cant even enforce the damn laws that belong to him….to fix things……no….he has to try to enforce federal laws….and has screwed everything up!! I hope im allowed to say all this Maribel, without fear of reprisal….

Anon,

What if there are no restitution costs? Many illegal immigrants use a random SS # that could belong to someone, could not, could belong to a dead person. They are not using that persons “identity”…just the number. And SS HAS to tie a number to the matching name or the $$$ go into the “pot” that includes the billions of dollars attributed to illegal immigrants. So if no costs were incurred, it would be okay with you?

Also, I’m interested in what your wife thinks about Chinese Mail Order brides and the way they obtain legal residency in the US? Does she not consider that “jumping the line?” That is about the only line Chinese women can get in…the hope that some American man will make them an offer. I don’t see why those women should be able to get into a line to get here under such a draconian program. Never meeting some guy but agreeing to marry him in exchange for a legal path to residency?! I don’t think that’s right at all.

I totally disagree with your comment “That is about the only line Chinese women can get in…the hope that some American man will make them an offer.” That is an insult to the many Chinese women who meet Americans through legitimate means. Sure, there are ones who obtain legal residency under false pretenses, and I dislike them as much as any illegal immigrants, and yes, they are jumping the line. But for you to make the statement that it is the about the only line that Chinese women get in is just plain wrong and really a rather despicable thing to say. Again, I don’t disagree that Chinese women who do this are wrong. However, in my own case, there had to be proof that I had made several lengthy trips to China before my wife could get her Visa, and also lengthy correspondence, daily phone calls, etc. outside those trips. The USA consulate there ended up getting a huge amount of documentation from us (several hundred pages as well as pictures of us together in places all over China, copies of my passport showing lengths of stay in China over a period of several years, etc. etc.). Quite frankly, I don’t think it is possible for someone from China to get a Visa to go to the USA to marry someone they’ve never met in person. You may be misinformed or else reading the press, which likes to distort facts. Anyway, the implication from your statement is that for most Chinese women “jumping the line” is their only path, and I think that is a gross mistatement of the facts.

As far as random social security numbers that aren’t tied to anyone, it is still breaking the law. Are these people who use random social security numbers paying proper taxes? If they don’t file tax returns how do we know they paid more or less than they should have? I’m sorry, it is still breaking the law. How do you know they aren’t claiming a bunch of deductions, to make their tax withholding really low, knowing that they won’t need to file a tax return since they are using a fake social security number that can’t be traced back to them. I just don’t get the idea that this is somehow an OK thing to do. I offered up the restitution thing figuring there would be some counterargument given. What I keep hearing is it is OK to break the law, even at someone else’s expense, and it is because these people are doing it to obtain jobs or buy houses, and that somehow makes it OK for some reason. It’s plain and simple fraud, and it costs lots of people lots of money and hardship as a result. And I don’t buy the argument that it is in some cases a “victimless” crime.

“I dislike them as much as any illegal immigrants,”

Anon, you dislike these PEOPLE or you dislike what they DID?

There is a big difference.

I dislike what they did. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that – no one ever accused me of writing clearly!

Anon, I wish your wife all the best in getting into nursing practice in the U.S. We need her. I may be a little biased, but we nurses ROCK!!!

Thanks. Emma. Like I said, my wife has a long path to go as all the English medical terminology is really a killer. I’ve taken a look at sample NCLEX exams online, and I don’t even know a lot of the terms so I would think for someone who’s first language isn’t English it must be doubly hard. Anyway, I will say that nursing is a very honorable profession and it is a lot of hard work and long hours too.

Moonhowler, I was not being sarcastic, I was just trying to be realistic. I have seen people state that the wait can be that long. Immigration to the USA is not an entitlement.

I think the resolution is important. When immigrating illegally is more difficult than going through the process correctly, illegal immigration will decrease.
I don’t think we need to spend tax dollars on helping legal immigrants learn the culture and laws. That is the job for groups like La Raza and MSF. (that is if they care about the people themselves, rather than using them to have more political power)

Leila, I understand you’re busy with work and life things…

I am not “deliberately misreading” you at all…or at least I don’t understand how you think that. I have been posting here from pretty close to the start of this blog and have not mislead or intentionall misread anyone. Please don’t misinterpret my words, they are exactly what I mean, no hidden ideas.

As for your question, again, I thought I answered it, if they are guilty of Identity fraud or theft, then as I said they should not be eligible for the pathway to citizenship. Therefore, they should be deported upon conviction. Perhaps you are not reading close enough…:)

LuckyDuck – I’m not sure if they should be deported upon conviction or after serving a lenghty jail sentence. Then again, that means the taxpayers pay for their incarceration. However, I have a bad feeling that as soon as some of them are deported they’ll come right back. Unless we secure our borders, but that unfortunately isn’t going to happen in the short term. There is no real good answer, but for sure – no one guilty of identity theft or fraud should be eiligible for any form of amnesty.

As to funding of these “Naturalization Centers” – I agree with Dignidad – let MWB or groups like that fund them, if they are really serious about helping. The problem is, from what I see of MWB, they don’t just want a path to citizenship, they don’t believe in borders and just think everyone should be able to come here for free, no fees or anything paid toward citizenship. That is why I think they’d never pay for any naturalization center. For the taxpayers to pay for it, again if amnesty gets enacted, I’m sure the taxpayers will end up paying a hefty bill for that. USCIS is never going to be able to handle the load on top of the existing immigration load, which they can barely keep up with. So we’re already going to get a bill for amnesty if it gets enacted, why should we also be paying for naturalization centers? Anyone who thinks amnesty will be no cost to taxpayers – I give it 6 months max after it gets enacted before USCIS comes asking for a huge amount of additional funding to handle the increased workload. And I’m sure it won’t be cheap – it will take many millions of dollars to modernize their system. The USCIS is a typically beauracracy, and when their workload grows by a huge percentage (I’m not sure what the predicted 12 million will add to it in terms of percentage, but I’m guessing 50% or more) – they will need to grow their beauracracy, at a cost to the taxpayer, obviously.

Anon,

All I’m saying is that there are a TON of online dating sites aimed at matching up American men with Chinese women for marriage. Do some people think this is a “legitimate” way to meet a mate. Undoubtedly, many do. And they probably do make a few trips over there to meet her etc., but how is that a more legitimate path for someone to get here? The end result is the same thing…they are able to get residency within a few years by fishing for a mate online when the alternative is no path to get here. That seems a heck of a lot easier to do than walking through a desert for 30 days and busting their butts once they get here doing menial American jobs. At least those immigrants are contributing to American society by working and paying taxes…even if it IS a false SS number.

And I want to clarify…that these sites DO advertise it as looking for a mate online for MARRIAGE. It doesn’t say anything about dating…just in case someone on here found their mate online through Match.com or whatever. Those sites try to bring singles together…the overseas sites target marriage as the goal.

WHWN, I agree with your assessment of those sites. I don’t condone them at all. But at least innocent American citizen’s are not directly harmed or impacted by them using their stolen SSN’s with all of the credit and tax problems that are associated with it.

WHWN, I wanted to add, which would you rather have living next door to you, a mail order bride or someone using YOUR SSN to finance their American dream?

I want to clarify that I do not hate anyone who is an online overseas bride/mail order bride or anything like that, I just wonder why that is considered an acceptable method of obtaining residency but we can’t allow residency for people that want to come here to work and contribute.

LuckyDuck, I just don’t see how using a SS, but not the identity, is considered so heinous when there is no other option available. This does not hurt anyone’s credit and any money made by an illegal whose name does not match the Owner’s SS # does not get credited to the real owner of the #…are there a few instances that could be cited? Probably, but not 12M! Obviously, it would be vastly better for everyone (Americans and immigrants) who are currently working under a false SS # to be able to get a SS # and not continue to do so, but this idea is considered “amnesty” by so many even with fines attached, paying any back taxes due etc. SOMETHING has to give…12 M people are just not going to disappear.

don’t think we need to spend tax dollars on helping legal immigrants learn the culture and laws. That is the job for groups like La Raza and MSF. (that is if they care about the people themselves, rather than using them to have more political power)

Dignidad, the part of your statement in parentheses could be applied to any group including HSM, BVBL. If they care about the people themselves, the people that the WaPo article states are eligible to obtain US citizenship, wouldn’t it be better to spend tax dollars to help them obtain citizenship rather than use them as political pawns?
Wouldn’t it be better to help someone such as Anon’s wife…help her with English/medical translations because she’d be a plus for our society and a plus for the nursing field at a time when we’re experiencing shortages of nurses? While I agree that different organizations, charities, polictically active groups should help too, I’m not adverse to government taking a role.

Ultimately, even most of the immigrants who are here illegally are not going to go away. It’s to our advantage to get people to assimilate. It’s not good to have a large hostile segment of our population…and people will be hostile if they are continually vilified, hounded, singled out as scapegoats. I think some form of ID and a way to pay taxes need to be made available to people who are here. We need to know who they are and it would put the lie to the myth that they don’t pay their share (and take away the need of phony SSs and other IDs.)

Do the Right Thing, I am fine with your idea that if the SSN is NOT attached to someone else, then fine, pay the fines, do whatever is required to get on the pathway. BUT, if someone is charged and convicted of Identity Theft, in my opinion, they should be out of any legislation to citizenship.

Lucky Duck,

Then we agree! Yay! Now we just have to be able to create that path!

Rational thinking….too bad Washington doesn’t do it.

Do The Right Thing: Your comments do nothing helpful. In fact you apparently mock me and my wife for suggesting she took some “easy way out” to get here. In fact, you’ve done nothing but attack me since I’ve came on this board just because I support some aspects of the resolution. Then again, I did not meet my wife on some “overseas dating site” as you seem to imply.

It is clear that you and I can not have any meaningful dialog, when you write things like above and make it sound like my wife took the easy way out because she met and married an American citizen. Somehow, you make it sound like people who come over here and steal people’s identity, should get priority over people like my wife. It took us several years to get her over here, and many visits by me to China (4 visits prior to her coming here, each totalling 2 months – although some of that was work related travel). Not to mention huge expenses I paid in all kinds of fees associated with the immigration process, PRIOR to her coming here. Again, you make a mockery of people like my wife, and I actually think it boarders on some bias you have against Chinese immigrants from the sounds of your posts. And I just really like your last line – “At least those immigrants are contributing to American society by working and paying taxes…even if it IS a false SS number.”

So you are saying my wife is not making a meaningful contribution to society? She has a valid green card and social security number, and if she could qualify as a nurse she’d start work TODAY paying taxes using HER social security number. So how does your last statement which I quoted above be helpful in this discussion. You are implying my wife makes less of a contribution even though she would be working with HER social security number and paying HER taxes.

Again, I find your comments vile and disgusting – both these and others you’ve made to me in the past on other threads. I’m done dialoging with you – which is what I should have done the in the last thread when you made some other negative remarks toward me. That time you claimed you mixed me up with someone else in some disgusting statement you made to me, which I was sure you didn’t. This time you no longer have that defense.

And LuckyDuck – I appreciate your reply to Do The Right Thing in defense of “mail order brides”. Not that my wife really qualifies as that, but apparently in Do the Right Thing’s eyes she maybe does (or even if she doesn’t, I highly resent the remarks DTRT made and find them rather offensive and hateful). Maybe more because of other remarks DTRT has made in response to posts by me in the past.

DTRT – and if in your later post you really meant it when you said ” want to clarify that I do not hate anyone who is an online overseas bride/mail order bride or anything like that” – then you wouldn’t have made the comment: “At least those immigrants are contributing to American society by working and paying taxes…even if it IS a false SS number” when comparing illegal immigrants to Chinese women emigrating to the USA after meeting an American citizen. I will say this, all of my wife’s friends who come here have intentions of being gainfully employed – so they aren’t looking for a “free ticket” to just come here and sit around all day.

However you paint it, that last comment was pretty out of line and it seems you backpedaled a little after making it – but I think you let your true feelings show with the orginal comment. You can’t have it both ways, which is what you now seem to be trying to do. Somehow, I still get that you suggest that these Chinese women are less valuable to our society than the illegal immigrants who come here and steal social security numbers – as if those people are working and large percentages of these Chinese women have no desire to work!

And, from your comments it seems to me in your eyes illegal immigrants are somehow better than Chinese women who marry and come here legally. Again, I will argue with you that no one could possibly come here without a lot of proof of a legitimate relationship, no matter what the press or whatever has you believe. The US Consulate in Guanzhou (which handles all these VISAs for anyone in China) is extremely strict, and I know legitimate couples who’ve been turned down because they didn’t have enough proof of a real relationship (not enough time spent together in China, or various other factors pointing to marriage fraud). In fact, they look at your bank accounts for suspicious transactions – did you know that both me and my wife and her family had to show all our bank account history for the prior 3 years – to show that no money had been transferred to her family as some sort of “gift” to them for her coming here, or money transferred to me for agreeing to bring her here and marry her? I’ll bet you didn’t. You are showing how uninformed/misinformed you are about the whole thing. There is certainly attempts at marriage fraud, but again I will tell you the US Consulate is very strict on that and the interview my wife had to go through when she was finally granted her VISA – did you know it lasted 1 hour long and was conducted in English? I’ll bet you didn’t! Even though ours was a fairly easy case considering the number of visits and the length of the visits, plus the total length of our relationship in years before she came here – it was still required a lot of documentation, interviews, etc. Again, I bet you didn’t know that. Your posts kind of illustrate just a few “sound bytes” you’ve picked up about some websites – which I don’t say don’t exist, but I think again no way could someone who’s never met the other person, be able to come here – nor could they come here if they just met the person for a week or so, and the relationship was a year old or less.

And if you really want to educate yourself on how complicated it is to come here on a fiancee visa like my wife did – go see http://www.candleforlove.com which is a forum (not for people to meet) but for people currently working on those visas and what they have to pull together in the way of documentation and other proof to come here. If you read some of the threads on that forum (which I haven’t in a long time since we are mostly through this process) – you will see it is no easy process, which you seem to think it is. If you were to educate yourself on this, you’d no there’s no way someone can meet someone on the internet, and come over here without ever having met in person, or even after having met only one time briefly for a week or so in person.

Your comments do nothing but belittle the many Chinese women who have come over here legitimately – and in fact have had to go through a rigorous process to prove they aren’t trying to commit marriage fraud. Maybe 6 or more years ago the US Consulate in Guangzhou was less strict, but in recent years they’ve become very strict and do much investigation on each case. And I can only speak to how it was there when my wife went through the process and her final interview (which I could not be present for – I had to wait OUTSIDE the consulate) – back in October 2005. I’m sure it is just as strict now, and perhaps more strict.

Actually, to Censored’s comment: “Wouldn’t it be better to help someone such as Anon’s wife…help her with English/medical translations because she’d be a plus for our society and a plus for the nursing field at a time when we’re experiencing shortages of nurses. While I agree that different organizations, charities, polictically active groups should help too, I’m not adverse to government taking a role.”

Actually BEACON has a pretty good program in Manassas for people wanting to become nurse’s aids and helping them learn English medical terminology which started up back in February. Although their requirements are strict, and I thought my wife’s English was getting pretty good. She had done very well in the intermediate/advanced ESOL class offered by Prince William County Adult School – her teacher said she was her best student. However, she still did not quite score high enough on a test BEACON administered to get in the program this year. However, they claim to have a free advanced English class starting up shortly (I guess in the fall) that she can take, and then hopefully next year get into that program.

I really think actually there is enough of this already – either available free or for a small fee – about $125/semester – such as Prince William County’s Adult ESOL program which is quite good too. My wife had attended that for the past 2 years now and her English progressed well. Although as can be seen, BEACON still think it falls slightly short (only about 30 points on this test they give her that requires a score of around 500 to get into their medical terminology program).

As I said, she has a very uphill climb to get to be a registered nurse here (or even a nurse’s aid) even though she was a senior nurse in China.

I guess my point is, I’m not sure I agree with taxpayer dollars funding this. Again, I can see a huge bill for taxpayers coming from USCIS once amnesty is voted in. It may not come right away, but it will come in 6 months to a year. I just know how USCIS works, and they will just fall to pieces under this increased load of an estimated 12 million amnesty applicants! Our taxpayer dollars are stretched far enough, funding amnesty PLUS some other programs for helping immigrants assimilate – I’m afraid we can’t fund everything – something’s got to give. That’s why I’m sort of against the government getting involved in funding that sort of thing – as I’m willing to bet that a huge bill will be forthcoming from USCIS once amnesty gets enacted. Anyone who thinks USCIS will pick up that load for free is sadly mistaken. USCIS just doubled their fees a year ago, and that STILL hasn’t helped them handle their current load.

Anon, sometimes people fail to realize what a challenge it is to learn a language when there is another alphabet involved as well as different words. Often a person will appear to be totally proficient in a language because he/she speaks it well. Writing/reading it can be a real challenge though. I once was in an art class where the many of the students petitioned the instructor to give the exam orally because what we native speakers/readers could read in an hour would take them four or five hours because of the difference in alphabets.

It sounded to me from the article that more than language classes would be involved…that an attempt would be made to get people who were eligible to move on to citizenship. Perhaps the help needed involved filing the proper paperwork.

Censored bybvbl: OK, I see what you mean about more than just English classes. True, filing the paperwork is no easy task, and lots of forms ask for duplicate information. I’m sort of surprised someone hasn’t come up with software to help do it – like what is done for filing taxes. At least it could keep track of some information that you wouldn’t have to fill out over and over again on a bunch of different forms. One thing they kept asking for were the names and addresses of all my wife’s family – that is her parents, and her two brothers and sister. It was a pain to have to keep writing this out and would have been nice if they didn’t ask the same information on about 5 different forms. Anyway, definitely agree that there is a need for people to get help filling out immigration paperwork, I’m just not sure government funding is the way to go about that.

LuckyDuck, 3. June 2008, 7:35
WHWN, I agree with your assessment of those sites. I don’t condone them at all. But at least innocent American citizen’s are not directly harmed or impacted by them using their stolen SSN’s with all of the credit and tax problems that are associated with it.

I am trying to understand why it would be acceptable to steal an SSN if 1) You need it and 2) you don’t plan to ruin someone else’s credit with it. NO ONE is entitled to my SSN for any purpose other than that which it was intended for, and I don’t give it out freely for that reason. It is never OK to use someone else’s identity, I don’t care what the purpose is, it is stealing, plain and simple. I can’t believe that so many here seem to be endorsing this as a harmless, “victimless” crime, and the potential damage to a person is often incalculable.

It wasn’t all that long ago that someone (I believe it was kgotthard, but forgive me if I am mistaken) said that Greg L. should be arrested because of his blog and his views. As near I can tell, Greg has not broken any laws, but you would want him arrested anyway just because you perceive that he represents an extreme view that you do not agree with, and I recall that several people joined in a chorus of agreement on that. (and no, I don’t belong to HSM, don’t really like the bvbl blog all that much, etc., etc., so please don’t lump me in with the “minions.”)

At what point would you object to the illegal activity of an illegal immigrant? When it affects you personally? How much are you willing to excuse? In the name of intellectual honesty, can’t you just concede that some activities are simply WRONG? I am appalled at the legal and moral relativism that I see here so often.

I also am very sad to see how some of you have jumped on anon’s case about his Chinese wife, and your sickening insinuations about “mail-order brides.” So quick to make assumptions and fling vile stereotypes. Isn’t that just what you accuse the “other” blog of doing? I’m not sure you can go much lower than that.

Emma: thanks for making the point (in the last paragraph of your post) that I’ve been trying to make in my last few posts. And actually, your entire post makes a lot of very good points about this whole discussion of stealing social security numbers. It gets back to what I said that in one of my posts that I really have trouble believing it is a “victimless crime”. The taxpayers will have to pay in some way actually, for the social security administration to unravel the mess created by those social security numbers that are “unassigned”. And again, I suspect people using unassigned numbers, are probably making sure their payroll shows a huge number of dependents so they pay next to no income taxes. If I were going to steal a social security number – why wouldn’t I also make sure my income tax withholding was as low as possible, since I’m not going to file an income tax return anyway!

I’m getting off the point I wanted to make, but mainly I wanted to thank you for saying what you did – as I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one on this blog who found some of the remarks about Chinese “mail-order brides” rather offensive.

You’re quite welcome. I’m sorry to see such blatant bigotry go unchallenged here. The silence is deafening.

Emma – it’s the same the other thread (that I know you just posted your views there) that people either have blinders on or are somehow making apologies for all the hateful terminology being thrown about in a cavalier attitude! Sort of a sad commentary on things, but it is what it is! I feel you, I, and 2 or 3 other posters seem to be the only ones offended by some of what is being said in this thread, that other thread (as well as other threads in the past) and if we are the only ones on this blog being offended by those things ,that in and of itself is rather scary! It is at least refreshing to me to find that there’s a few of us who find some of these posts (especially in that other thread) fairly distasteful.

Censored, I just don’t think this is something tax dollars should go for. This is something groups like La Raza & MSF need to do because these are the people they claim to be advocating for.
You are right that there is a large segment of the population that is hostile. There is a tremendous false sense of victimization. As their children come of age, I’m afraid the hostility will increase. This doesn’t mean we should cave to a misinformed population. For this reason I wish the media, especially Spanish language media, would be honest and publicize the concept of taking responsibility for one’s own behavior. There are some people who do villify, but I think most people just want the American culture and laws to be respected.

You made a very good point Dignidad – about the “tremendous false sense of victimization”. I blame a lot of that on the groups like La Raza & MSF who help stir up the pot and say a lot of false things that help stir up fear and hatred in the people who they are advocating for. I find it shameful that they use these tactics to promote their agenda. I agree that instead of pouring more incendiary rhetoric on the fire, they ought to use their money to help these people assimilate and find a path to citizenship. Instead they seem to do more to drive a wedge between them and American citizens and legal American residents.

Also what you say about “taking responsibility for one’s own behavior” is quite correct. Perhaps if more of the newer Hispanic immigrants (both illegal and legal) were encouraged to take a hard look at how they behave in the neighborhoods they live in, and take some pride in where they live, there wouldn’t be all the problems and some people who live near them in this neighborhoods wouldn’t be quite so angry! There’s far too many instances of them no respecting the neighborhoods they live in, and turning them into undesirable places to live. They seem to not even be interested in trying to live in harmony with their neighbors – not caring if they blast loud music at all hours of the night, toss trash and broken bottles all over the place, and disobey other social norms. Some people say they need to be educated in these things – fine – then why doesn’t La Raza and other groups help them to learn that this is unacceptable behavior, and a very large part of what is fueling a lot of the anger.

Emma, you have misread my comment. My point was that people who come here on a site advertising for mates DO NOT STEAL or USE other’s SSN’s. I was defending people who come here for any reason and do not use other’s identity as I am assuming that they have entered legally.

LuckyDuck – actually I think Emma was responding to DTRT on that point although you might have gotten caught a bit in the crossfire. Anyway, I agree with what you say in your latest post contrasting the theft of SSN’s versus “Chinese mail order brides” not engaging in this behavior. However, I personally find this whole Chinese mail order bride discussion rather distasteful – which I’ve already kind of gone to great lengths to debunk a lot of the misinformation and commentary that was in some posts that I found personally rather objectionable. I’m done trying to change anyone’s minds on that.

Anyway, personally I have a problem with the idea that theft of SSN’s is in some cases a “victimless crime” if the SSN’s don’t match up with anyone. It is still going to be a cost to taxpayers at some point to unravel the entire mess – as someday someone is going to have to figure out what to do with that bucket of money sitting there for all those “unused” SSN’s. You know there’s going to be a bill attached to it – nothing in life is free! And I’ve pointed out my suspicions that people who do that also (if they were smart) would intentionally claim a lot of deductions on their W-4 forms and make sure they pay little if no income taxes. Not that I’d steal a social security number, but if I did that’s what I’d do – as I’d have no reason to file an income tax return obviously – since I couldn’t be tracked down! So why would I want to have any income taxes taken out of my paycheck?

I had written a long post in response but it got lost. Let’s just say I’m disappointed we’ve taken steps backward here. It is somewhat shameful to suggest that I’d not have the same problem (or be as angry) if Asians or Pakistani’s lived next to me and trashed my neighborhood and stole from my house.

Also I respectfully disagree about the mail order brides. I thought I gave ample evidence of how a true mail order bride ( if I understand the definition right) could not gain entry to the USA. And in me and my wife’s case, you don’t know how hard it was to get her Visa approved, even though we had a genuine long term (many year) relationship with lots of evidence. Did you know we had to get police reports from every town she ever lived in? Some of those police dept’s are very uncooperative in this regard. Did you know she went through an FBI Name Check that because her name was a common one, took more than a year? And the implication that “mail order brides” come here and make no contribution to American society is shameful. I don’t know of ANY Chinese women who come here and expect to sit around all day. Most Chinese people are very hard workers, and I think most Chinese women who come here want to work when they come here. But DTRT posts made it clear it was just the opposite. My other point is, due illegal aliens go through any of these checks? No. And they are already here, so what’s the point if amnesty is granted of any of this being done. It won’t be. Will they have to themselves go and get police reports from any town they’ve lived in from the country they came from? I doubt it. Will they have to wait a year or more for the FBI Name Check to complete? I doubt it. And I know of some people getting stuck in what’s called ‘Name Check Hell’ because their name is so common the FBI can’t make a decision as to whether they are a criminal or not. It seemed to be on the verge of happening to my wife and I finally got Congressman Wolf’s office to give them a bit of a push to move the case along. Anyway, I hate it when people speak from ignorance, and the posts about mail order brides were filled with misinformation and just ignorance about what it truly takes to come here on a fiancee or marriage type of VISA (it really makes no difference if you got married overseas – you still face almost the same hurdles – there’s some debate as to whether it is easier to come here if you are already married or not – but we chose the fiancee visa route and I wanted to get married over here with my family and friends, although unfortunately that meant my wife’s family and friends could not participate obviously).

Anyway, I still see attempts to make me appear that I hate all Hispanics, or to try and put me in a neat little box as someone who labels one group unfairly. I thought we had moved far past that. Too many posters on this board like to do that to people they disagree with, and it is shameful. I know I even said in some of my posts that initially, 5-7 years ago Hispanic FAMILIES moved here and they were fine – they were law abiding, didn’t trash the neighborhood, didn’t blast music at all hours of the day and night without any feeling for those living next to them, etc. Then came this OTHER element maybe 3 years ago who were quite different. This subelement are people who care less about people they live near to, and care less about their neighborhood and trash it. And I believe a large percentage of this subelement are probably illegal aliens. Are they all? No. And are all illegal aliens bad? No. Anyway, I’m repeating myself as I said this plenty of times before, but then you come out with the statement implying I might feel differently if some other ethnicity than Hispanics came in and trashed the neighborhood. I think that is very unfair, and I feel we’ve taken two steps backward in this dialog. I thought we had moved far beyond that.

There is a subset of posters here that keep trying to “put me in a neat little box” by trying to imply I’m racist, or I hate all Hispanics, or something like that. It is a very unfair thing to do – and it is done by these posters to anyone who they feel is “pro-resolution”. They are the ones that need to be ashamed of themselves. They jump to conclusions, and then other people on here applaud them for doing so. And then this blog tries to make it sound like it ‘rises above’ the other blog. Not when it slings about misinformation and hatred on subjects like “mail order brides” – which again I say a true “mail order bride” if I understand the definition of one on this blog – would not gain entry to the USA. I thought I made my points clear on that, but then I see again it is implied that mail order brides are less deserving than other people in coming here. Again, if the definition of a mail order bride is what I think it is, then they would not be able to come here. If it is some more broader definition – well I won’t even touch that one.

Well, I’ve rehashed this enough, but I rather resent the implication that I’d somehow feel differently, or label people differently, if I had another ethnicity than Hispanics living next to me and overcrowding the house, trashing the neighborhood, blasting music at all hours of the day and night (it’s 5:30 AM in the morning and music has been playing since 4 AM or so). It’s a very unfair statement to make, and again I think we’ve taken a giant step backward in where I thought we were, in this entire debate. It’s too bad, but it is what it is.

And, as a proud American citizen, I resented when all I said was I thought border security was important – a reply that told me I had learned nothing from 9/11! I think any American citizen would be rightfully angered at a suggestion like that. How would you like to be told such a thing. Every American citizen was personally affected by 9/11 – so for a poster to make such a statement, to someone who just said that border security was an important step to be taken before we could think of amnesty, was a truly shameful thing to say. Everyone tried to say it was not a personal attack, but it was addressed at me specifically and I think most American citizens would be rightfully idignant when if someone told them they had learned nothing from 9/11. Actually, I wouldn’t have my present job if it weren’t for 9/11 – the system I was work on was about to be completely decommissioned, but in the wake of 9/11 it was decided to completely modernize and enhance it – and that’s the job I was hired to do in November 2002. So for that poster who doesn’t know me, to make a statement like that – when I wouldn’t be in this job if it weren’t for 9/11 – is really something. It just shows the poster’s ignorance, jumping to conclusions – which I see happening far too often on this blog, usually when that jumping to conclusions leads to a personal attack. And the same thing happened with the whole “mail order bride” thing. But the gall of someone to say to another US Citizen that they have learned nothing from 9/11! I don’t think you can say there is a US Citizen that has NOT learned SOMETHING from 9/11. So it matters not that what I do for a living, I would have a different job if it weren’t for 9/11.

So the fact that it would anger any proud American citizen to tell them they had learned nothing from 9/11 – THAT IS what astounded me from that post, and again I said nothing that should have warranted such a hateful comment. Wouldn’t it anger you if someone told you that? Some of the posters here are filled with more hate than they try to accuse me (wrongfully) of having. They need to take a good long look at themselves in the mirror, when they sling about terms like racism and other similar buzzwords – just because they happen to disagree with people’s point of views. That subset of posters on here (a very vocal subset) seem to be set on lumping all those they don’t agree with into one cohesive group. They are gulity of the same thing they accuse me of doing, labeling the Hisapnics as one cohesive group! Yet they refuse to recognize that, and constantly accuse me of doing it, when in fact I’ve gone to great lengths I do not do that. It is really quite hypocritical of them, but they refuse to see it because they have their blinders on. It is a sad commentary about the state of things on this board, and every time I think the discussion moves past it, we take two steps backward.