Dreams Deferred
As far as I’m concerned, this one is a no-brainer. The next President regardless of whether it’s a Republican or a Democrat, will, at a minimum, need to address these minor children who consider themselves Americans. This will be the third, and I believe succesfull attempt at legislating the “Dream Act.” It is my desire that there will be Comprehensive Immigration Reform and not just a ‘quick fix’ attempt to resolve our immigration problems.
We do need to address these minor children who know nothing else except being an American. This is their culture, their country. Children have no choice. Parents make choices for their children. We need to flood the Congress with letters, e-mails and phone calls so that citizenship can become a reality for those who “Dream” the American dream.
Thanks for sharing the video. Anyone who does not have their heart touched or see why the Congress needs to re-introduce and pass the Dream Act must have not heart to conscience at all.
oops!!! Anyone who does not have their heart touched or see why Congress needs to re-introduce and pass the Dream Act must no heart or conscience.
Sign me up!!
AS I understand it these kids are not being denied education, they are simply being denied residency status. Thdey were not born here, have no legal citizenship entitlement, have no permanent residency status and have no legal right to claim state residency.
This does not deny them education, it simply denies them the right to claim “in state” tuition rates, because their parents are not in-state residents.
They fall into the same educational status as “foreign students” and must pay that tuition rate just like any foreign resident. They can attend any university they want, just like any out of state tuition student who is a US resident, but is “out of state” as well.
You are painting this picture in error. You should get the facts straight.
They only thing they are being denied is a cheap education, on state welfare payments and “In State” rates reserved for children who parents pay state taxes.
Most “illegal” alien parents are not paying “state taxes”.
Michael, do you actually know any of these students, or are you talking in abstractions?
These are valedictorians, kids who understand the value of the education they are getting, who appreciate all that teachers do for them.
I know firsthand.
These are not foreign students. They grew up here and are here to stay.
Get off your punitive bandwagon, and stop beating up on the powerless.
Michael,
It is just plain FALSE to state “Most “illegal” alien parents are not paying “state taxes”. It is simply NOT true! The vast majority of “illegals” get a regular paycheck from McDonald’s, Lansdowne, pick your own landscape company, roofing company etc. You can’t honestly believe that these employers pay cash? They can’t write off the labor as a business expense if they do that. Why are there billions of dollars in Social Security put there by “illegals” if they aren’t paying state taxes? Daylaborers are a very small fraction of the “illegal” work force and those are the only people paid under the table and even they are not ALL paid under the table. I think you need to get some facts straight before you just start throwing comments like that around that cannot be backed up. Of all the people arrested in “raids” how many do you think were not paying state or federal taxes? Try none…they all got a check, just like you and me.
Once again, we diverge from the topic Michael. If you can’t afford school, or if a school will not accept you because you cannot prove your domicile in that state, you are, for all intensive purposes, denied an education. Furthmore, if there ever is an e-verify, to deny employment to undocumented people, what then, is the future for these children of America? Once again, the issue of illegal immigration reduces itself to a human face. We simply cannot deny that facet of illegal immigration.
Sometimes it is not so clear cut. Many times students are caught in a legal limbo. They are legally present, yet still denied in-state tuition. Here is an article about a young man that is typical of many others.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48785-2004Sep24.html
I’ve got no problem with this as long as it only pertains to them being able to get in-state tuition rates. I absolutely am 110% against them getting scholarships or subsidized education on the backs of the tax payers and at the expense of another American citizen. You put one of these kids next to an equally achieving American citizen kid and tell me to choose which one gets the scholarship and I will choose the American every time and so should you if you love your country. Sure, if they grew up here then by all means let them go to school and get in-state rates, but no free rides on the public teat, no siree.
Most colleges and universities will not accept students who do have have legal status. It doesn’t matter if you get instate tuition or not if you cannot attend the college.
I will not ever accept not educating our students. It is un-American. When I look at the number of students who have been admitted on student visas to come to this country for an education, then hear that students who have gone to school here…GRRRRRRRRR….cannot be admitted to a college or university because of status, I see red. It just makes me HOWLing angry.
Education is the great equalizer. If nothing else, look at it selfishly, who is going to pay more into the social security system: a scientist or a migrant fruit picker? Make the right choice for yourself if nothing else.
These kids had nothing to do with coming to the United States. They were children. It is just shooting one’s self in the foot to not want these kids educated.
Moon-howler,
I’m HOWLIN’ with ya!!!!!!
Michael,
I just got off the phone with my brother who is a vice chancellor at ****** University. (Midwestern state about 1000 miles from here.) He just confirmed, the students are not admitted if they do not have legal status.
Can you honestly say that you feel it is right for a kid who has been educated in American schools not to be able to attend college?
Michael, I take issue with the implication of what you said,
“’In State’ rates are reserved for children who parents pay state taxes. Most illegal alien parents are not paying ‘state taxes’.”
Amen, Twinad they do pay taxes. Every time they purchase something, gas whatever, they pay taxes.
Fair Enough Park’d. But when do we stop punishing innocent children? What happens if e-verify goes into effect, where then, are these children of America to go, what is their fate?
I just noticed that my comment is being moderated. I am rather new at this, but want to ask why. I do not attack people and do not use profanity. I have posted several times before, so thought I would inquire as to why I am being moderated.
greene,
I dont think paying sales tax on a candy bar or other purchase counts here. If they are filing a state tax return they are paying state taxes, if they dont then they are not.
I dont believe children of illegals should receive anything that the taxpayer provides. If they are good enough to get into a state school or any school for that matter, let them compete EQUALLY with everyone else.
Elvis,
What will children who live in say Washington State do? That is one of the states that pays no state income tax. They get you coming and going in other ways but no state tax return.
Nine states have no state income tax: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming. New Hampshire and Tennessee tax their residents only on income earned through interest and dividends.
Somehow these states generate income in other ways—enough income to run a state as a matter of fact. It might be interesting to note that several of these states lead the nation in population growth. People must think no state income tax is a good thing. Do you think we really should be using state income tax as a standard?
This is another example of how immigrants are being exploited. These kids grew up here and want to go to college and become americans…why would we reject them?
The nativists would deny them a chance to get a higher education…so that they might join the military and go fight and die in iraq…while the nativists deport their parents
Michael is exactly right.
And, the kids of illegals can get financial aid and in-state rates if they declare independence. A situation many middle-class American kids are in - college isn’t affordable if they live with their parents, only if they declare independence.
So enough of this fake, false sob story.
I agree those students who are illegal and came here as children should be able to pay in state tuition rates, but I also feel that if the number of slots a university has is limited, they should go to American citizens FIRST, then others should be considered. However, in the last version of the Dream Act, the ages covered were up into adulthood, I think in the late 20’s, way past childhood or teenage years for consideration of tuition breaks.
Elena, you are completely against an E-verify system?
There are so many people in America who can’t go to college when they want because their parents can’t or won’t help them, and who struggle for years to attend a semester at a time … or just give up … and here we are again, trying to give more resources to illegal aliens instead of to our own people. The heck with the Dream Act.
I come from a lower economic childhood, went to college (the first person in my 2nd generation family to do so) on student loans and income from jobs that I worked to pay my tuition, so I know how hard it is to finish college and I can show empathy to those kids here by no act of their own, because you need college to survive in today’s world. I don’t have a problem giving an opportunity to those brought here as children because they had no choice, but they should not go ahead (in my humble opinion) of American children who are legal citizens.
And let’s not forgrt the obvious point that if this is an incentive for people to sneak in here, more will sneak in here. Many more.
We are too kind and gentle a nation … not putting other people’s kids through college is considered brutality in modern-day America … no wonder illegal aliens have no fear, come here by the millions, and feel a sense of entitlement.
Mr. Bentley,
The process of becoming emancipated is not immediate besides it doesn’t fix the underlying problem which is they don’t have the proper documentation to obtain gainful employment.
elvis,
“If they are good enough to get into a state school or any school for that matter, let them compete EQUALLY with everyone else.”
any school for that matter? Like somehow they wouldn’t be ‘good enough’ to go to any school? And, to have them compete equally would be a welcome change.
It’s not an immediate process for American kids either.
On your second point, if the kids don’t have proper documentation, for that situation I have all all-purpose solution. If you don’t legally belong here, leave immediately. return to the nation you are a citizen of, and if you want to come here, apply legally.
Rick Bentley, any child who was brought into this country illegally and wants and is given a chance to go to college while paying in-state tuition will be no slouch.
That student will have to study hard just as any student who expects to get ahead will do. Often these students are more motivated than our regular high school grads who just assume that college is one more step along the road to the middle or upper class life to which they’re accustomed. These children of immigrants really want to be there. It’s their ticket to an average American dream and a way out of the very hard labor many of their parents endured (just as it is for poorer American children). My grandfather, an immigrant, left school at age twelve. My mother, his daughter, went to college and got a double major - English and French.
So we’re a safety valve here to educate the whole world’s children, at taxpayer’s expense? Leave me out of your utopian dream.
To some extent it’s a tyranny to take people’s money as taxes and use it to subsidize the ostensible common good in America. That I can support and live with. But to now extend it to all the world’s children, to tell me I have to subsidize education for children who aren’t even legitimate citizens, I will not accept. You can’t make that type of change in our social contract without a public mandate or consensus.
And even if you convince some elitist tool like Juan McCain or Obama to enact that with the support of the other elitist crooks in our government, it will simmer and burn in public consciousness and it will not stand.
You want to help kids who aren’t citizens go to college, start a charity. Don’t try to force every taxpayer to bear that burden.
alanna,
what are you talking about? if any student has the stats/test results to apply for school then they should be on equal ground. do you feel that people should be admitted to school based on race/creed? or do you feel that people with unconfirmed illegal status should be given a priority? you could apply the “good enough” statement to anyone! not everyone is qualified to attend college, that’s just life. I would submit that you are looking too far into that statement. please stop being so reactionary and thinking that every statement is contrary to your personal beliefs.
as for state tax’s, I would agree that it’s not a fool-proof method to determine residency, but it’s a start and I’m sure there are more options. i’
I come from a low-income family, they didnt pay one cent for my school and I paid out of state tuition at some of them at great personal cost. Brought myself all the way from a undergrad, post-grade and then law school all under my own power so while I do sympathize, there are other options i.e. working and taking the slow route. If I remember correctly the FAFSA you fill out for stafford loads does not require parent information if you are an adult. They may not get state tuition rates, but if they want to really attend school then they can get stafford loans. I’ll have to confirm this but I think it’s correct, one of my close friends is a doctor and went to med school on stafford loans and his parents are both undocumented persons
“Once again, we diverge from the topic Michael. If you can’t afford school, or if a school will not accept you because you cannot prove your domicile in that state, you are, for all intensive purposes, denied an education. Furthmore, if there ever is an e-verify, to deny employment to undocumented people, what then, is the future for these children of America? Once again, the issue of illegal immigration reduces itself to a human face. We simply cannot deny that facet of illegal immigration.”
Nobody said life was fair…
If I go to Maryland and try to get in-state tuition rates as a non-resident they’ll deny me too. Now, of course I CAN pay full tuition (if accepted) and get a degree if I so choose. Seems to me these kids can do that as well.
“I’ve got no problem with this as long as it only pertains to them being able to get in-state tuition rates. I absolutely am 110% against them getting scholarships or subsidized education on the backs of the tax payers and at the expense of another American citizen. You put one of these kids next to an equally achieving American citizen kid and tell me to choose which one gets the scholarship and I will choose the American every time and so should you if you love your country. Sure, if they grew up here then by all means let them go to school and get in-state rates, but no free rides on the public teat, no siree.”
I’ll second that park’d…
I think these kids are members of the community just like any others and should be treated as such. The only problem is that the red tape has them trapped in it’s web. Their parents pay taxes just like everyone else. These kids will join the military because they hope it will help them acquire citizenship for themselves and for their parents. And then they go off to war, to fight and die for this country while the kids of the nativists bravely and courageously fight the brutal culture war here at home in between keg parties:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs
or they could join the military, take advantage of military tuition assistance (and colleges usually offer deals to military students) and go to school. GI BIll and army college fund are other ways to pay. let’s tell the whole story here folks, as usual there are two sides to it. everyone should be afforded the opportunity to attend school, it’s not cheap and there are ways to pay. I dont believe children of illegals should be afforded MORE opportunity than others. Maybe they can have a more stringent criteria if they cannot prove their parents legal status to qualify for in state tuition, like a certain GPA or SAT score. But it certainly should not be lower. There has to be some middle ground. I dont think it’s fair to students whose parents are legal to give them in state tuition.
You know this debate got me thinking about a topic I studied in Grad school. Back in the 1960’s Germany imported A LOT of labor from Turkey, Egypt and other North African Nations to help keep up its manufacturing base. See, in Germany nearly everyone had an advanced education and was ueber qualified to work in manufacturing, construction, etc. So, to offset this problem and help out their economy, they imported labor, men from the areas I mentioned above.
The imported workers were given work visas. They were given housing in some cases and all qualified for some benefits. The catch-all was that they had to return to their nations once the employment contract ended. Many, if not most, remained. They married, had families, learned German and assimilated to life as best they could.
Then fast forward 20-30 years, the Wall fell. German unification. Former East Germans, now just “Germans” saw the DDR dissolve and their jobs with it. They needed to work. Guess what happened? The Gaestarbeiter (imported workers who never left) were targeted for deportation. German citizens needed to be accomodated. In addition, the children of these imported workers were also slated for deportation - for Germany does NOT grant citizenhood to children of foreigners born there. Kids who grew up speaking German, living by Western European customs and who were - for all intensive purposes - German, were told they had to leave. You can imagine how well THAT went off.
So how does this relate to our immigration connundrum today in the US? As the German example will show - you cannot up and deport thousands of young adults who have grown up in the USA and are for all purposes - American. Many may not speak the native tongue of their parents, they are unaccustomed to the culture and norms of their parents’ country of origin. If they were brought here as very young children, they bear no culpability in their status. In cases like that, path to citizenship should be made.
ETA: Because I hit the submit button too soon…
However where US policy needs to be changed is the guarantee that children born here to foreign parents be granted automatic US citizenship. That is too great of a lure for people to come and remain when they have not gone through the legal channels to become citizens.
got me thinking too, I actually looked into the dream act a little further. the steps necessary are pretty stringent I didnt see anything about in state tuition, more about methods to grant legal status to those persons. from what I’m reading the dream act seems reasonable, as it reads it would ensure that quality individuals who make it through the system show determination and sometimes guts is what it takes. I can respect that. In state tuition for those that go through that system I think should qualify in my beliefe, it shows that they completed the process and if I’m correct it’s 6 years. Anyone who can stay the course through a process that long should be at least considered.
I am not opposed to altering the 14th amendment, by doing so we could discourage people from crossing illegally. Additionally, I do support e-verify or some cost effective equivalent for employment verification purposes but only in conjunction with an overall Comprehensive Immigration Reform package that includes a pathway to legalization for those that are rooted into our economic and social fabric.
Is it just me or is elvis becoming more reasonable?
elvis had a point to prove and I did, that there are always two sides to every story and bashing one side or the other goes no where. the truth lie somewhere in the middle. I keep seeing all this stuff that appears so emotional, I’ve been taught to never make an important decision based on emotion but only with facts. I’m personally against illegal immigration, I’m in agreement that the current system is broken and it needs to be fixed, however greater minds than mine have the solutions to this and I have seen many that everyone can agree that everyone disagrees. There is no quick fix. i dont think it’s fair that illegal aliens get services and such. I do think illegal aliens need to be documented regardless, it’s a security issue. I think the border needs to be enforced properly and that immigrants need to be provided a fool-proof method to gain status in a timely matter, that said immigration should be controlled to prevent overpopulation. we cannot allow everyone in all the time, that’s just not sane
if they want to realistically take the necessary steps to become a U.S. Citizen I’m all for it, it’s when they dont but expect the perks is when I have issues.
This is such a feel good moment! See, there are issues we CAN agree on. I agree Elvis, currently the system is broken, and I agree that we cannot absorb the whole world at one time (assuming the whole world would want to come here), but we do need to look at sme objective numbers about our work force, baby boomers retiring, birth rates, etc. This really is a complicated issue, and I agree, minds much greater than mine have reasonable enforceable plans, we just need to get past the rhetoric and start hashing this out in a civil discussion. We also cannot forget the very nature of our country, and the belief system that ours is a country of hope and greatness for all who are willing to sacrafice.
None of these people expect perks, but if they are a part of our community and pay taxes, why would refuse to treat them as part of the community…our immigration system may be severely deficient, but that’s our fault. The illegal immigrants simply have no power in our society. How can you blame people who are powerless?
As for overpopulation, they come here to work, not to mooch off the system. When our economy tanks and there’s no more jobs, there will be no more immigration.
I agree we need to secure the border…but from terrorists…not from migrant workers. We need to build a wall on both borders, man it with troops if need be, and even sow mines if need be. We are at war, although you wouldn’t know it from the way most people are acting. Someday, we’ll deeply regret not having secured the border.
Mackie!!!!!!!!
Now, THAT, was funny AND frightening at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs
assimilation is a big issue with me too, attempting to assimilate shows that you really want to be here. That’s the crux of my issue, I would have no problem with illegals becoming citizens if they could be forced to assimilate. the only problem here is we know we cannot “force” anyone to do anything. I really liked the idea of sending them all back to whence they came and ensuring they apply for citizenship/visas using the regular process. I dont think being hard-nosed either way is going to solve the issue, you cant shut everyone out but you cant prevent them all from coming in and it’s not right to give services to those who knowingly broke the law and to make matters worse, what do you do with the kids of those who broke law? make them suffer? I dont think that’s quite right however compared to other native born folks there should be some type of distinction.
It’s a tough situation all around and an emotional one for some which makes more difficult.
mackie,
that’s a generalization. They dont “all” come here to work and while I do agree the border is quite porous and unsecure it’s been that way for awhile. Do I agree they are powerless? Sure they are, but do they “deserve” any power? doubt it, they shouldnt be here in the first place. I dont feel we need to necessarily mine the border and man it with troops. I would recommend accountability. make it known and proved that crossing the border illegally will encounter consequences that will be enforced. Now there are really none. Make the border less porous and you have something there.
What I see here is poor procedures and poor processes overall. That’s the governments job to fix this. what you have here is people one side saying “I have jobs” and people on the other side saying “i need money” it’s really a no brainer for them, they walk across and take some low paying jobs. Make a bit more difficult for them and they’ll hesitate to do so. Make it easier to come in via less dangerous means ala’ easier immigration process, they’ll go that route i.e. the path of least resistance and as a bonus we’ll get them into databases for easier tracking to secure our country. I really like that idea
“We need to build a wall on both borders, man it with troops if need be, and even sow mines if need be. We are at war, although you wouldn’t know it from the way most people are acting. Someday, we’ll deeply regret not having secured the border.”
The problem with armed walls like the one you propose…it becomes very hard to tell the difference if they’re trying to keep people out…or keep people in.
No thanks to the DMZ idea…
I agree to a point with Elvis…assimilation has to be desired to happen. If someone who has crossed the border for a job is just making money to send back to their country and doesn’t intend to live here on a permanent basis, where is the assimilation? Where is the stake in the future of our neighborhoods and Country? A number of people that I have spoken with that admit they are illegal or undocumented speak of sending money to their home country and eventually returning there to live. So this wave of immigration is a bit different than previous ones where the newcomers were building a stake in America’s future.
bubba
agreed. when you get to the point where you have to build a wall to secure something that says the current processes are flawed. I’m all about process improvement, if you can ensure the immigration process is tight and fair then that’s most of the battle. I’ve travel extensively in europe and you can basically travel from country to country unimpeded for the most part with no walls.
“The problem with armed walls like the one you propose…it becomes very hard to tell the difference if they’re trying to keep people out…or keep people in.”
That’s a no brainer. I haven’t heard of millions of US citizens illegally entering Mexico and undercutting its citizens for jobs or taking advantage of the Mexican govt. and its citizens.
No border and no accountability in the US for breaking it’s immagration laws? WTF? Sounds alot like Mexicans Without Borders to me…
Many of you Bizzaro BVBL posters seem to decry ANY form of immagration reform other then letting them all flood the country. HSM is the boogey man. ICE is the boogey man. Fed up citizens are the boogey man. Everyone is the friggen boogey man that is fed up with this plague that has swept the county and all the boo hoo appologists crying a river.
Every poll in PWC, scientific and non, have undisputably and soundly indicated that the majority of citizens living in this county want illegal aliens gone. All of them.
Why don’t you take all that energy and idealism, fly a plane down to Mexico, and start a movement to improve conditions there. Do it for the children.
Mando said:
The immigrants ARE improving places like mexico and other countries by working here and sending money home. That money gets injected exactly where it will do the most good in those countries…the working class. This is helping to create an emerging middle class in those countries…it’s making it possible for their children and relatives to get an education (no public education in much of latin america). An emerging middle class will bring about peaceful reform in education, laws, government, business, etc. They come here as traders. They trade their labor for american dollars. When you purchase a car made in japan, or a tv made in china, you are equally trading american dollars for foreign labor. The abuse of immigrants and native-born americans happens when business is in collusion with government to prevent us from fixing the obsolete immigration system.
Elvis and Mackie,
I agree with alot of your thoughts. The people here now need to be accounted for and we need to know who is here and what they are doing. If anything, comprehensive immigration reform will allow all the millions of people here to come out and get registered so we know who they are, who they work for and what kinds of jobs they have been doing AND allow the government to track what they have paid in taxes over the years.
My analogy is this…the law is broken and needs to be changed just as many laws through the years have been determined to be broken and had to be changed with the times. I think we would be hard pressed to find ALOT of people who think that people being allowed to OWN other people was a good law. Yet this country fought a bloody war for some people to retain the rights to own slaves. Other examples are “blacks to the back of the bus” or “black drinking fountains”. These laws were, at some point, determined to be out of touch with reality and the laws were changed to reflect the changing times. I don’t really think people think, “but that black man drank out of the white drinking fountain BEFORE the law was changed, so he should be punished!” These people came over here when we desperately needed the labor and the government looked the other way because they KNEW illegal immigrants were necessary to keep the economic engine going. That is why there has to be some kind of path to if not citizenship, at least legalization. I’m not saying scott free…I’m saying a fine, a background check etc.
We also need to set realistic expectations of how many people we need and change the number of visas accordingly. We need to allow people to come here on a PLANE, get checked through customs and pay an entrance fee to the government of at least several thousand dollars. Remember, all illegal immigrants are paying criminal coyotes $5K to get here. So we reduce the entrance fee by $1 or $2K off what they are paying criminals and that will still leave them enough money to purchase a ticket to come here legally (and equally importantly, safely) and be checked in through customs. They will have already had a background check and fingerprints done in their home country before they got the visa to get here. These are the kinds of changes that will stop the illegal flow because who would come here illegally if they could come here legally for less money and be assured of their safety.
Oh Mando - you haven’t a clue and you haven’t written anything else I have posted. If you had, you wouldn’t have made such ridiculous statements like you did.
Duhhhh….meant to say “READ anything else I have posted”
Elena,
THAT was a good video.
@ Not Me, Bubba
My appologies but it wasn’t directed entirely at you.
On the armed border part, the border is getting increasingly dangerous for border patrol and they’re pretty much out-gunned by the drug runners and coyotes. The militarization of these drug runners and coyotes smacks alot of Mexican govt. backing. The US militarizing our side of the border in light of this doesn’t seem so out of place.
@ Mackie
They come here not as traders, but as black market labor - which is illegal.
I hear (see) what alot of you are saying, all good things. I think what has been discussed before with our government is sending all of them back and having them immigrate the proper way (I think the time-line given was 6-10 years, correct me if I’m wrong) but give a guaranteed roadmap to immigration. I dont have a problem with this at all. OR even ensuring all of them register and after completing the requisite language training, citizenship training, whatever then they be allowed to carry a green card/visa. They have to prove they want to be here if they want to be citizens and that means assimilation or at least attempt to assimilate. There’s a middle road somewhere in this mess that fits at least some of what most people want. Everyone is not going to be happy but that’s life. The assimilation issue is what turns many people against the plight of the illegal alien. I mean it’s really hard to feel sorry for them sometimes when you hear stories about some of them being here for 20 plus years and not being able to speak a lick of english. Doesnt really show a desire to be an american to many. But, seeing illegal aliens attempt school, complete college, get degree’s and such…THATS assimilation and should be rewarded. it’s the “bad” apples in the basket that make everyone else look bad. Clear them up by assisting them to assimilate by giving them a little “push” and everything looks more pleasant to a wider range of people and that opens more doors up.
TWINAD, 6. May 2008, 16:24
That is a reasonable summation of what needs to happen, even Elvis sees the validity in it!
Again, I’ll restate it’s all a matter of streamlining the process. The process now is messed up for sure. make it right and sharp to where the standards are tight and you have something that people can agree with, if not be happy with. I’ve found that people in general respect standards that are followed regardless of whether they actually agree with them. If the public sees a particular standard followed with efficiency then you have something good happening because then you’ll see heads nodding. Otherwise you have mass confusion and that’s where people start getting upset because they see one group or another taking advantage of the system. People like to see fairness. fairness is easy to understand and it makes most sleep better at night.
Why assimilate? Our business community is falling all over themselves to market to the “Spanish-speaking” community in America. You can shop in Spanish groceries, watch Dish Latino every night … become part of the new and exciting permanent American underclass.
Rick,
There are plenty of communities that cater to the tastes of immigrants……china town, little italy, Indian, Korean etc etc etc. There is a churche, in fact, one in Gainesville, and it has Korean on the sign. Are you offended by that too? Becoming a part of the American culuture does NOT mean you abdicate your heritage. Now, having said that, I absolutely believe that immigrants should learn some English, but don’t forget, that is no easy task for adults to learn another language fluently. I do not speak any other language fluently but English.
Making immigrants learn English will be nearly impossible to do - not because they will not learn, but because the USA has NO “official” language. There is no part of our constitution, bill of rights or other founding documents that cite a uniform national language. Same goes for religion…
So unless TPTB mandate tomorrow or in the near future that English become our national language, mandating English lessons is futile. The US has no national language, so all languages are acceptable.
Do we have second generation immigrants unable to speak English? No. In fact, the second generation is losing the language of their parents just as past generations have done. It’s no different.
I will agree whole-heartedly that I don’t like when stores hang signs in Spanish especially with no English equivalent. Recently, I went into Sprint and they only had the plan brochure in Spanish, when I inquired, I was told they had run out of the English version. So, I completely understand the frustration but I don’t believe the blame for this falls on the ‘illegals.’
there are language immersion programs, it’s not easy to learn another language especially adults. Children have a far easier time becoming bilingual. I’ve attended language immersion for two other languages and it was a pretty tough experience. The asian languages seem to be the hardest, with english right up there as well. If I’m not mistaken I think to obtain citizenship you have to speak english at some level of proficiency.
But importing millions of people who speak a different language at the same time takes us towards bilingualism. And there seems to be littlem incentive for new arrivals to speak English.
It’s easy to say the kids will grow up speaking English - and that’s true. And some of those kids will succeed in life. Many though, will fail. The difficulties we see in moving an underclass of people out of poverty should be obvious from recent American hostory. How we can claim we want to reduce poverty while simultaneously swelling an uneducated underclass … it’s entirely contradictory. Importing so many poor and uneducated may not sentence each and every one of their children to poverty, but it will almost certainly swell our underclass, increase poverty in America, and move us further towards a caste system of haves and have-nots.
It’s basically the opposite of what many of us used to think America should be and what we thought it was.
A story… a friend’s daughter ended up with an assignment in China and didn’t speak any Chinese. She learned a smattering. One day she was walking down the street and was dying to have a free-flowing conversation in English instead of feeling stymied by her poor Chinese language skills. She spotted two European looking guys and walked up to them and said,”I’ll give you one thousand dollars to speak English to me for thirty minutes”. One was Dutch and the other German but they both spoke English. They didn’t take her up on her monetary offer but she did marry one of them a year later.
Great story Censored
Twinad, I know first hand most “illegals” are not paying state taxes, nor federal taxes. My wife was an illegal alien, she and ALL of her friends were illegal, except for 2. None of their employers paid federal or state tax witholding (a pre-requisite to filing a tax return), none of them had W-2s, all had over-stayed visas (I-90s), all had access to unscrululus lawyers that put in false paperwork for them to be able to have some form of ID, a few had drivvers license, I know some who even voted illegally, all had unscrupulous employers who paid cash out of the drawer, and counted only credit cards as “income”.
I don’t need you or anyone else to tell me this was false, I saw it from the inside, and a whole lot more (like rape of innocent illegals, from people who knew they were illegal, with threats to turn them in if they did not. The police when reported, did nothing to stop any of this, and I did report it, and to ICE. They also did nothing to these illegally run businesses.
Maybe you see something different in your spouse’s experiences, than I saw in mine and all of her some 30 “illegal” friends and some 50 “illegal” associates. My spouses associates, before they finally became legal through sham marriages (not my wife that was legitimate) all traded on an illegal black market, sharing illegal financial accounts, ssns, credit cards and phone plans as “family” when they were not.
I know more about the reality and damage illegal immigration causes that almost any of you on this blog, by directly seeing it in its internal social network and covert support system.
This is why I insist on the law being enforced, and for only “legal” people to be allowed to remain in this country at all cost, including deporting 12-14 million people who have not obeyed the law and caused others in the legal line to wait even longer. I saw first hand what it does to the legal poor, and to the society I live in.
To attend any state supported school as a foreigner you have to request and receive a student VISA. These kids simply have to request a foreigh student VISA and they can attend any school they apply for under that visa. They are foreign students, not permamant residents or citizens, unless they are born here or go through the same process everyone else does to request and receive a permanent resident card. I have no sympathy for parents who break the law and put their kids in these positions. I don’t blame the kids, I blame the parents.
My cut on the language issue. I am not against anyone speaking multiple languages (surprised?), but I am highly against not using a common business language (English) as the culturally “INTEGRATING” language that it is ALL OVER THE WORLD.
I am not against anyone learning multiple languages, enjoying multiple cultures, and actually enjoy the recreational and artistic benefits of having many cultures. What I am highly against is dis-integration, cultural separatism, and culturally seperating forces that create politically devisive factions along racial, gender, religious and ethnic lines. These force are forces that encourage people to remain loyal only to thier culture, to prefer to speak their native language, instead of a community language, and who promote racial self-segregation as a culture only they think is superior to all others. That is racism of the worst kind of the 60s throwback.
I am extremely against the destructive political nature of these groups of people who align political advocacy and political power, votes and ethics along racial, gender, religious and ethnic group cultural boundaries. Intentional speaking of multi-languages as a government requirement, and business solution is socially and nationally destructive politically as it creates even more division, hatred, and lack of trust and communication between conflicting political factions aligned along cultural boundaries. That is the road to destruction of a nation, and I think none of you understand this. I have seen it first hand in warring factions, in other “racially motivated”, culturally and linguistically segregated populations of the world.
You ae missing the point, Permanant resident students and American citizens are just as concerned and will work just as hard as any “illegal alien” student to compete to get into college. The issue is simply “cost”. If you are not a permanent resident or a citizen that has declared state residency, pay state tax (not gas bills), and competes based on grades, IQ and ability and can get loans scholarships and state funds for school (my kids do), then no “illegal alien” deserves any more special privilege under the law than any other foreign student, or any student competing with my US citizen or your permanant resident kids (those of you that have them). Foreigners can go to any school they want, They just like out-of state students have to pay more for the privilege. Again I have no sympathy, because I want my kids to compete on a legal playing field that is “neutral” according to law, not biased because some people feel sorry only for “illegal alien” kids and not my kids. My kids deserve your sympathy too, unless you just don’t like their “culture” or race or ethnic group. Then the problem is with you. My issue is only with the “illegal” kids taking college opportunities away from my “legal” kids. You can’t convince me ‘illegals” deserve more than “legals”, no matter who you try to spin it.
Michael,
All I can speak from is experience, too, and I don’t know ANY illegals who are getting paid under the table. They ALL get paychecks and pay all requisite taxes. Obviously, you did run in a shadier group it seems if you saw all that and did participate in a sham marriage. I am NOT in a sham marriage and it angers me that in the past people did take advantage of that loophole and now it is closed…even to people with real marriages, love and family. I seem to remember that your wife was from the Phillipines? Perhaps they had a more sophisticated ring of people to assist them with their dirty deeds. All I’m saying is that you should not come on here and paint all illegals as non taxpayers…the vast majority DO get a paycheck and pay all the requisite taxes. Just look at all the people caught up in raids…they were all getting checks from their employers.
Michael,
I just re-ready your post and I think I see that your marriage was NOT a sham? Not clear on that, but if I got it wrong in the above post, I’m sorry. I still think that you are using a “wide paint roller” (got that from Censored!) in painting all illegal aliens as non taxpayers, because it is simply not true from all the people I know and from the amount of money collected by SS from illegal aliens.
I’m seeing alot of generalization here. I’ve seen “illegal aliens work and pay taxes” which says to me “ALL” illegal aliens and I’ve seen “illegal aliens work under the table” which means “ALL” illegal aliens work under the table. Both generalizations are not correct or true.
These are generalizations and they are not rational. We know that many illegal aliens work with ITIN’s and pay taxes (and dont collect refunds) however we also know many that work under the table, you just have to drive by a 7-11 to see that. the problem with discussing anything about illegal immigration is when people generalize and insert emotion into the argument. I cannot stand the day-workers hanging out on corners, urinating in public and the well known illegals down the street parking in the middle of the road so traffic cannot safely navigate by. Those are individual circumstances that do not apply to ALL illegal aliens, as mentioned before I had a relatively quiet neighbor for sometime that many had good suspicions was illegal. He was quiet as a mouse and neighborly for the most part and I’m sure he had a regular job and that he paid taxes. for as many examples of the good, you can find plenty examples of the bad.
The system is broke, it needs to be fixed. Giving one way (total amnesty) and the other (locking them all up and shipping them back) is not the answer. The truth lie somewhere in between. I’m all for documenting these people, sending them back and making them earn their way back albeit expeditiously and correctly. I’m not for Obama or Hillary but I think they have some good ideas and if they work as advertised then they sound reasonable. Then again Mcain has portions of his plans that are good as well, as did Romney and others. Would it not be nice if everyone one of them pooled together and disregarded special interests and emotions to work out a solid plan?
elvis, 8. May 2008, 8:03
work together? What an odd and strange idea
I agree Elvis, a consensus need to be reached.
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins” (2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4)
basically, children should not have to suffer for the misdeeds of their parents. if they are legal citizens then they should not be hamstrung by the misdeeds of their parents in obtaining education. what’s done is done, the 14th amendment’s interpretation (which is being debated by far greater legal minds than are on this board) at this time says those people are citizens. So for now, according to law, this people are in fact citizens and should be afforded the rights thereof with no strings attached.
You are correct elvis, not all illegals pay state and federal taxes. By my understanding (some of you can research more accurately), some $12Billion dollars over the past 10 years is under false social security accounts, therefore meaning a social security number (yours) was stolen by an illegal, your identity stolen and by some screwed up “liberal judge ruling” are not allowed to know about this theft of your social security number. That’s $1.2 billion dollars paid by illegals per year, or at an average income of $10,000-$20,000 per year and taxes paid of $1000-2000/year only about 600,000 of the 12-14 MILLION illegal aliens in country are paying taxes. This additional 13.5 million who are not paying any federal or state tax AT ALL are taking in money under the table, and will cause the Medicare accounts to go bankrupt by the year 2017 (nine years from now), and the social security accounts to go bankrupt by 2041. ( This measly little 12Billion dollars they have paid (not by choice) is a drop in the bucket compared to the national debt of $9TRILLION dollars. So Big Deal that 1 out of 20 illegals are paying taxes. If we remove them from the country, an additional 14Million people get paid more medicare and social security welfare checks.
elvis, the 14th admendment does not grant citizenship to foreign borne children (except military, or if one spouse is legal) of illegal parents, only US borne children of illegal parents. US borne children is not what the dream act is trying to give free benefits to, it is trying to make illegal children legal with the srtoke of a pin ahead of all other people lined up for permanent resident cards or student visas. This is highly unethical. These kids simply need to apply for permanent residency status like everyone else. Then they can go to get “in-State” tuition rates.
The reason the nation is going to go bankrupt early is the liberal side of the government wants us to pay more social programs so we can be a socialist economy (and thus poor) instead of invest in techical innovation programs so we can be a market economy and thus richer than poorer. The taxes are being increased by the liberal side of the government to pay for more social and handout programs, significantly to the 12-14 million “illegal” poor compared to the some 30 million “legal poor”. The rest of us 320 million “majority” the liberal side of the government does not seem to care about and in fact “hates” as the “status quo”.
We will tax ourselves into poverty, and grow ourselves “out of control” into poverty, all the while thinking the government is a bottomless socialist money pit and we can tax ourselves into prosperity. Stupid is as stupid does.
It’s not some American kid’s fault that their parents moved state-to-state and didn’t establish residency either … possibly to find work after losing a job to an illegal alien or having a whole industry collapse … no crocodile tears for them though … in any case the kid can go to college, it’s just a different and slightly longer process. These are the rules in place and I don’t want them changed just to reward illegal behavior.
Again I say, in some countries and cultures people get beaten with pipes for sneaking in and undermining wages, here in America if we do anything other than roll out the red carpet some people get so upset. Take your notion of Christian Charity and apply it to charitable efforts, don’t try to force it down every American’s throat. Our government does not exist for your philanthropical efforts.
I’m pretty fluent in the 14th amendment as I’m an attorney, however i was under the impression the dream act allowed students students that we in state to basically get away from the “sins of the father” type stuff. it doesnt say that if an child of an illegal decided to move to another state and get in state tuition, I dont think that’s the case. that said I looked into it, it doesnt apply to U.S. born but illegals who can prove they entered before 15 years of age, and they have to be high performing students, the cream of the crop. I dont have issue with that. A 15 year old doesnt really have a say so on where they go. and the dream act says nothing about in state tuition. that’s a state thing. in fact, tacking an in-state tuition clause on to that bill would be a sure way to kill it. I doubt many american citizens would stand for illegal aliens getting in-state tuition when others dont. the dream act is essentially a citizenship path for high performing illegal alien students who entered the U.S. before the age of 15 and are not criminals. If I’m leaving anything out let me know, I have the bill in front me.