AntiBVBL

Am amazed at the range of services being cut without allowing time for community imput. Of course last night was the first time anyone saw what the supervisors have proposed. Some process…

So, it sounds like they are cutting officers and the camera’s but 287g for regular police force stays in place. Sounds to me like ciitzen concerns, once again, were ignored. This is truly a disappointment. Although I did not listen to the entire mark-up, Frank Principi asked a great question to Chief Deane regarding the impact of not having enough police officers.

The double foreclosure rate in PWC is an abberation to our other counties, whose foreclosure rates are much lower. Chief Deane pointed out the added concern the residential and commercial vacancies will have on police intervention.

http://www.policymattersohio.org/media/DR_Study_Foreclosures_Have_Widespread_Financial_Impact_2005_0719.htm

“Collateral Damage: The Municipal Impact of Today’s Mortgage Foreclosure Boom,”
authored by William Agpar, senior scholar and Mark Duda, research fellow at the Joint
Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University, concluded that the foreclosure of a
single family home – especially one that leaves the home vacant and unsecured can
generate direct municipal costs in excess of $30,000 per property.

Typical expenses include loss of tax revenue, costs associated with managing the
foreclosure process, building inspections, increased policing, increased fire department
activity (due to arson and/or vandalism), demolition costs and increased demand for social
service programs.

“Left unchecked, the nationwide municipal cost of foreclosures could easily top the $1
billion mark – money that is annually being diverted from meeting other pressing urban
needs,” Agpar stated.

I’m wondering how it is that, if the Rule of Law resolution is so destructive of business in the County, commercial property assessments have held firm (or not dropped so precipitously) that a tax increase will impose an actual increase four times greater than that for residential property owners? I’m perfectly willing to accept the proposition that County assessors are “fudging” the numbers for businesses, but it seems to me to be a fact that belies the Chicken Littles who make the claim that the Rule of Law resolution harms business in the County.

“The Rule of Law” is the “immigration resolution.” I don’t care what they want to call it. They don’t have a “Rule of Law” to protect general laws and ordinances, so once again, we see the targeting of minorities.

That being said, Elena, you did a FOIA on the emails that helped get the resolution passed. They BOCS didn’t look at the sources and they ignored thousands of protests. Combine this miscarriage of democratic process with the irresponsible spending and raising of our tax dollars, and we have grounds for a civil lawsuit or at least grounds for a recall. There is no way the BOCS can legally get away with this. I’m waiting for the Office of Civil Rights to step in here somewhere.

Hiding in my heart and mind is the belief that justice will prevail.

Elena, ONE special citizen was not ignored. More later on that.

I find it interesting that County Attorney Horton strongly recommended the squad car cameras and County Executive Officer Gerhart recommended the cameras, but Corey Stewart just didn’t think they were necessary and John Stirrup felt they would be law suit magnets. Perhaps if the county is sued, these 2 gentlemen would pay the judgement and the legal fees from their own pockets?

What ever happened to those famous words to Chief Deane from our supervisors last fall? We will get you what you need to do the job. Lies, Lies and more lies.

“ONE special citizen was not ignored.” Was it Alanna or Elena? Come on! The suspense is killing me!!! : )

I suppose we could debate semantics, kgotthardt. You choose your euphemism (or, I suppose in this case, malphemism, if that’s a word); I prefer accuracy. I note, however, that you didn’t address the real point. However, addressing your point, if I were you, I wouldn’t hold my breath “waiting for the Office of Civil Rights to step in here somewhere.” It’s not about “targeting of minorities,” particularly since those “minorities” here lawfully are both respected and appreciated by many of those who support the Rule of Law Resolution, including Chairman Stewart, whose wife is an immigrant herself.

As for your suggestion, Moon-howler, good luck with that. As someone who frequently names public officials in lawsuits (for hearing their master’s voice, when that master is a union official), I can’t say I’d mind your suggestion.

BTW, would you apply your rule retroactively, and hold Sharon Pandak liable for the Kenny Parsons fiasco?

Didn’t think so.

KG,

I fear both those ladies were ignored.

James Young,

One fight at a time. I never knew the details of your other fiasco so I cannot comment. I just see a train wreck in front of me now and will deal with the current sad state of affairs.

The police were promised whatever they needed to enforce the immigration law and now Stewart is simply cutting all those items out of the budget. He cut the camera request and the staffing request yet he wants the resolution enforced to the fullest extent.

Let me explain what I found out…the police department trained 6 people for ICE or the 287(G) program in February with the understanding from the BOCS that those positions would be backfilled or replaced in this budget. So now they are cutting those positions out of the budget. Well folks, most of those officers who were trained came from Patrol squads. So YOUR community is short one police officer EVERY shift to respond to calls for service. The only way to get around this violation of staffing requirements is to pay overtime to an off duty officer to work extra to meet staffing levels. Is this any way to run a County Government?

More budget recap—-

Suggestions have been offered for ways to save money.
My first recommendation for a RIF would be the supervisor at large – Chairman. We can go back to one per magisterial district and they elect a chairman from their group of 7. This is a good place to start as it would eliminate the at-large position as well as the accompanying staff.

I am curious how the at-large chairman feels it is appropriate to spend in excess of $30,000 to send out invitations to a BOCS meeting last fall but doesn’t give the county supervisors any heads up as to the $21 million dollar proposed budget cuts he suggested last night. Last night was the first they saw of the suggestions. They had no time to digest the proposed cuts at all.

Blitzkrieg budget-cutting is not the soundest way to manage county money. i would prefer to have MY supervisor think about the impact of his decisions rather than just moving his mouth as the puppeteer demands.

I am wondering when there will be citizen input time, based on facts rather than on what we think might happen.

I see Stirrup and Stewart as carpet baggers. They have come to Virginia apparently to destroy a grand old county that is steeped in tradition. Virginians would never short change their fire departments, their police departments, their children or their elderly.

When is the next CBB meeting? (Carpet-bagger Board Meeting)

If they still want to enforce the probable cause part of the Resolution, then they need the cameras and we (not the federal government) need to pay for them and for more officers. If they don’t want to pay for them, then they need to rescind that part of the Resolution.

Let’s hope that whatever third party is advising the Board, will say so, and then they will need to scrap that part of the Resolution. One or two lawsuits could wipe out any savings in not funding those items.

Twinad,

I totally agree with you. I recommend recinding the probable cause part of the resolution. The county cannot afford to pay for it as it was presented to the taxpayers back in the fall. If they cannot run the program correctly, then scrap it until they can. Keeping the 287(g) program in the jail and beefing up that program is money ahead.

You and I will have to pay for any lawsuits that come down the pike. I believe we have professional law enforcement officers but this ‘resolution’ is a test case and a law suit magnet to start with.

Our supervisors need to listen to those they pay for advice, rather than to a few political gadflies who have a social agenda to push.

What about the Group Homes for Boys and Girls? These are institutions in our community. Youth for Tomorrow snuck a bid in to take them over – no competitive bidding; no proof of the numbers or review by community staff. Unfortunately, Group Homes like these dont have a vocal backing but they do keep our kids from getting into furrther trouble. This , like all the other cuts, are in my opinion, ways for stewaart to save face……cut things so he could balance HIS budget in the middle of the nite w/o public input. How long is the community going to let him push everyone around. He had a nominal victory in the election look at the mess he is creating!

I agree with Twinad. The BOCS need to recind the probable cause of the resolution. As I sat there for 5 hours yesterday, I could not believe my ears. Both Mr. Horton and the County Exec cautioned the BOCS over and over about why the cameras were crucial. One of the police officers (his name escapes me) indicated the same.

There will be lawsuits and more lawsuits and you can believe the Equal Rights Commission, ACLU, etc are keeping their eyes and ears open.

Most of the supervisors will not listen to anyone. They pay a hefty price for legal counsel but turn a deaf ear. Same in the City. City is being sued currently for alleged unfair housing practices against hispanics. The cost for legal counsel is exorbitant now and the City very well stands to lose the suit.

I fear the cost is going to defend lawsuits will be much higher for the County. Without cameras police will never be able to disprove racial profiling. So be it! I feel sorry for the residents.

“particularly since those “minorities” here lawfully are both respected and appreciated by many of those who support the Rule of Law Resolution, including Chairman Stewart, whose wife is an immigrant herself.”

James, First, “immigration resolution” is what the BOCS called their little policy (that would be the one they took from a hate group—FAIR). They changed the name from targeting ALL immigrants to one which now basically labels all immigrants “law breakers” until proven innocent. We know this because people have been asked about immigration status without committing a criminal offense AND the police already detained two actual citizens.

Second, the Chairman’s wife is a white immigrant who would never be targeted because she looks like the majority and because she’s the chairman’s wife. Do you really think things like that happen to wealthy politicians’ spouses? Not often, and you can bet not in the county. So that argument is moot, at best. (Nothing against Mr. Stewart’s wife in the least, but SOMETHING against Mr. Stewart and his ridiculous attempt at providing justification for his “resolution”.)

This county has proven time and time again, at the expense of the tax payers and now even of their own employees who will be laid off that they don’t care about democracy or the majority. If they didn’t they would not be cancelling citizen times, moving them around to avoid real discussion, pandering to hate and extremist groups, and not even checking the sources of their “approval.” Sorry, but emails from people outside the county and WAPO anonymous and multiple postings don’t count, nor can they. The only ways other than numerous citizen times to really get a feel for the public opinion is through surveys, studies, and votes. And THOSE, we know, have already been ignored by the Chairman and his Vice (appropriately titled).

“I recommend recinding the probable cause part of the resolution.” Yes. Also recind the service denials for the elderly and the disabled who look “illegal.”

Yes, that was an idiotic comment from Ms Widowski concerning the comments section of the Washington Post! To imply that public policy be made based on anonymous postings is outrageous. But what do you expect from Help Save Manassas, they are desperate. They have done themselves in because of their bad behavior. THank the Lord the average citizen now sees them for what they are.

Admin,
I think those 2 ladies are probablly way more reasonable than some would care to give them credit for. Seriously, do you really think they wasted their time on public urination. I think NOT! I think they are very aware of busy the police are. I think they are aware that there are more serios crimes goin on. Furthermore, I think from reading the article that incident happened some time ago. Heck, maybe she told them in Spanish there’s 3 bathtooms in the house and that we don’t urinate outdoors with young girls accross the street.

I didn’t know Ms Widowski was a member of HSM. She participated in a very balanced debate on immigration that I took part in as well. She’s also from my “neck of the woods.” Are you SURE she’s a HSM member? If so, at least she doesn’t appear to be insane! : )

(I would tell her to quit HSM if she IS a member. She doesn’t want to be lumped in with the “crazies”.)

Ruby said on 23 Apr 2008 at 12:41 pm:
Admin,
I think those 2 ladies are probablly way more reasonable than some would care to give them credit for. Seriously, do you really think they wasted their time on public urination. I think NOT! I think they are very aware of busy the police are. I think they are aware that there are more serios crimes goin on. Furthermore, I think from reading the article that incident happened some time ago. Heck, maybe she told them in Spanish there’s 3 bathtooms in the house and that we don’t urinate outdoors with young girls accross the street.

From Kenneth – BOCS also cut Princippi’s ec to add 3 people to Neighborhood Services which is what the County s/b doing instead of the worthless 287 stuff

“BOCS also cut Princippi’s ec to add 3 people to Neighborhood Services” Every second it becomes more and more apparent the BOCS doesn’t give a damn about neighborhoods. If they did, they would have tried some preventive maintenance and some investment in our communities instead of an investment in their political careers. I don’t pay these people to campaign for themselves all the way through their time in office. I pay them to resolve problems amicably and justly.

How cut in stone are any of these items? Can’t they be put back in? Stewart is trying for the minimum tax increase. Maybe the other supervisors feel differently.

We won’t know who feels differently until the decisions are made. I think the BOCS members should have a little mutiny, personally.

During yesterday’s worksession the Board reviewed the Chairman’s proposed cuts. They took informal straw polls on each item. So none of the cuts are binding until next week when they vote on the final budget. There is still time for things to change, though the results of the straw polls do give an indication of what might be in play or not.

Anon,

Are the straw poll results public knowledge? Just wondering.

I realize this might be a little to general for a budget recap topic, however I still request you hear me out.

Wow. What a debate going on here in our county. I am undecided right now on where I stand, and would like to get some answers to questions. I will grill the bvbl.net folks as well on their issues.

I have lived here about 5 years. I have had zero problems with Mexicans or any other immigrants in this area. I have not seen a flop house on my block (and I live in Sudley Manor). Sure, I hear occasional loud ethnic music coming from the occasional car, but I’d have to say I hear more white boys listening to gangsta rap. I see Latinos gather at 7/11, no big deal. As far as I see it, street parking is up for grabs. If you have trouble parking your car, you have every right to build a bigger private driveway (at least in Sudley Manor).

I have (legal) neighbors of Mexican decent, and our children play together while the grownups enjoy each other’s company on our front porches. I value the legal immigrant’s contributions to this county. The Mexican restaurants are AWESOME, however I did feel uncomfortable at first being that their signs are in Spanish. But I got over it. It has always seemed like both sides wanted to know each other more, but were afraid to take any steps. We have always tolerated each other, but we have also avoided each other.

Everything was fine and dandy until a few years ago when my oldest son first enrolled at Sudley Manor. The learning curve was set incredibly low to accommodate illegal immigrants. How do I know that they are illegal? I have spoken with the mothers of these kids. There was little fear of acknowledging one’s illegal status in 2005. I believe it benefits a community when all children get a good education, but I find it unfair to be stuck with the bill — and the cost of my own child’s education. We have since taken all of our kids out of public school, and we now home school (at greater cost to us, in addition paying taxes for public school). In our household’s experience, this has affected us greatly, and symbolized that things have simply gone too far.

Below are my points AGAINST illegal immigrants…I would appreciate if someone could perhaps fill me in on what I might be wrong about, or simply give their side. I am trying to become more educated here. I welcome you to dispute what I consider fact based on personal experience. I hope no one in the group rushes to call me racist or a moron. Again, I plan to grill bvbl.net as well.

- There is a reason that we have limited the amount of immigrants to this country, and contrary to popular belief (in this forum), it is not a republican conspiracy to rid the country of “brownies”. We have illegals coming in as such a rate that the infrastructure simply cannot handle it. I will also be as bold to say that it should be a slow process from a cultural side. People on both sides should be allowed the proper time to adapt to cultural change. What is happening in our county is proof of this — look at how our county has become divided.

- Greg’s group is called “Help save Manassas”. His title does not call out Latinos. The opposing side is called “Mexicans Without Borders”. They acknowledge themselves as representing Mexicans, and they are just as much subject to criticism as any other group. It is not fair that when anything is said objectively about them, it is considered racist. To me this comes off as stereotyping all white people as racists — quite ironic in that view is racist as well. With that said, it should be acknowledged that there are a small group of racists in this county who want Latino’s out, and they are using the “illegal” issue as an opportunity to spread hate. This does not excuse “Mexicans Without Borders” to take advantage of America’s current racial sensitivity as a tool to block anyone from objecting to their agenda.

- How can people say that illegals are paying their fair share of taxes — especially SS taxes? Aren’t most of them getting paid cash under the table? It doesn’t take an expert to realize that sales tax on a Big Gulp isn’t to cover emergency room and education costs. Paying rent helps in the form of property taxes, but it still falls way short. If they are paying income taxes, does it not mean that they have likely paid for false identification (probably without realizing that they have paid someone unscrupulous for someone else’s identity)?

- How is it not a black and white issue that they are illegal? Some use the comparison of when whites first came here, that they were illegal too, but fought to overcome, and that is what the Latinos are doing as well.
When Europeans came to America, the Indians were here first. By some standards, yes, the whites were considered “illegal”. There was much fighting, and the Europeans prevailed. When we took part of the southwest from Mexico, there was a war, and the United States won. If illegals take on this stance – that tells me that they are willing to go to war over this again. I certainly hope that this is not true. However, every time I hear this argument used, this is what they are saying to me.

- When a legal tax-paying American has a major medical issue, the health costs can cause them to go into bankruptcy. The illegal alien will usually take the easier path of switching identities when the bill comes, as the underground networks of illegal identification are easily accessible. When we had the aggressive driving laws, they were also immune from having to pay the exuberant fines. The examples of illegals immune from regular American costs are endless. This has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but everything to do with benefits that they have that legal Americans do not.

As for the cops pulling people over, what is the great mystery in how they determine whether or not to question legal status? Is it when they fail to provide a driver’s license? or if the license is clearly a fake? Has anyone been asked for their identity when simply walking down the street? At a soccer game? At 7/11? Is there any proof that more Latinos have been pulled over in general? When you sneak into the country, again you are aware you have done so illegally, and there should be some fear that you might get caught. Anything else is a mockery of our laws.

When a pro-illegal advocate uses the word “undocumented”, it comes off like they are trying to reprogram the public into thinking that they aren’t doing anything wrong. This comes across as deceiving the public. “It’s simply a matter of paperwork which makes them undocumented” they say. This is not the case. We have decided as a country for very specific and well-thought out reasons to limit the amount of people coming into this country. People coming here are indeed illegal just as much as someone without the paperwork saying they have a college degree does not have a college degree. I’m not racist against someone without a college degree, but that shouldn’t give them the right to be able to demand a job which requires it.

I ask this group to show me why I should support illegal aliens.
Thanks
-Undecided

Ruby,
Maybe the police are so busy because we have hundreds of less officers than other counties. Deane said in order to have the same percentage of officers as Henrico County, we would have to hire a hundred or two hundred officers. 100 – 200 officers! That’s a lot! My point being, it must have an impact on response times and workloads, that’s all. It’s just a supposition, I don’t have any proof, it just seems logical. I could be wrong.

Admin,
No problem. I am harmless. Just, bring another perspective to the board that’s all.

You and I have both lived here long enough to know our police have never had a surplus of officers. Wouldn’t you say?

Luckily I haven’t had to call on them too frequently.

The straw polls are public knowledge if you go to PWC Gov. center and request a copy of the hearing on DVD. Jeff and I were shooting, but once we realized it was another one of those meetings with no end, we began saving tape by turning off the cameras here and there. When I spoke at Citizens’ Time (it was fun, and also empowering, I recommend it), I promised the Board of Supervisors a new video about the economic impact of the Immigration Resolution. At the time, it was 3:00 PM and I had no idea I’d still be shooting 9 and half hours later! But the video is coming out soon on 9500 Liberty.

At around 7 PM, I was chatting with Chairman Stewart. I complimented him for staying cool even though some of the citizens had brought a lot of anger into the room. He seemed heartened by my making mention of that. He said something like, it doesn’t mean I don’t feel the emotion, or feel anger in return, but the last thing we need is a hysterical chairman. I thought he said “historical chairman” and said that back to him with a question mark. He said no, hysterical.

Anyway, the point is that he started telling me how he favored much higher quotas for legal immigration to meet our labor demands and partially solve the problem of illegal immigration. It seemed clear to me though, I didn’t think to ask, that he would have no problem what-so-ever if legal residents of the same socioeconomic and ethnic composition came to PWC to replace the ones who (presumably fearing deportion), have recently fled the county.

Anyway again. (I’m writing stream of consciousness because I should really get back to video editing). Corey stopped and said, I really need to get this out, and so we decided to shoot a quick interview. During the interview I realized that what he wanted to do was to distance his own views of immigration from those of Dan Stein and FAIR. So, that will also be coming up on the 9500 Liberty Channel.

Eric, please post Corey’s views on immigration asap! We’ve got to see this to believe it.

kgotthardt, I really wish you’d make up your mind. First, you complain about targeting minorities for racist reasons. Then you complain that “they don’t care about democracy or the majority.” First, I don’t want a Board that “cares,” particularly when it does so with my money. I want a Board which faithfully executes its duties. Second, I hope “they don’t care about democracy.” Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on who’s for dinner. We don’t HAVE a democracy; we have a representative republic. As for “the majority,” I seem to recall that Chairman Stewart won election — TWICE — with rather substantial majorities, once after passage of the resolution, in the only “survey” or “poll” that truly counts. I suppose it’s your privilege to continue to whine about the resolution, but it clearly enjoys the support of “the majority.” Indeed, it enjoys the support of EVERY MEMBER of the Board, save for Frank Principi, who wasn’t there to vote for it. And he certainly hasn’t tried to rescind it. Third, “citizens’ time” is an opportunity for people to exercise their right of free speech. However, there is no concomitant obligation on the part of the Board to “listen,” which you seem to imply.

As for your claim that “the Chairman’s wife … would never be targeted because she looks like the majority and because she’s the chairman’s wife,” there are a couple of answers. First, NO ONE (other than a lawbreaker) is “targeted”; the claim that anyone is “targeted” is simply the race-hustlers’ fantasy. Second, does speaking with an accent constitute “probable cause”? I don’t know, but if it does, she could be checked, if she violates other laws.

I will view the video as I would Little Red Riding Hood. ‘What big eyes (lies, whatever) you have, Grandma!’

Eric, this Doubting Thomas wants to see that video. When do you expect it to be ready?

Okay, I’ll throw something up.

Eric,

That’s awesome! We ALL want to see that! Thanks.

I know Ms. Widowski and she is not a member of HSM. And she is not crazy.

I would be very curious also, thanks Eric. BTW, you did a great job speaking yesterday at citizen time!

I wonder why, if we have many of us have similar views with the Chairman, that we are pegged as extememists? I guess it’s “all in the eye of the beholder” who is labeled extreme.

corr: “if many of us”, forget the we!

Why do so many people on this board need others to help justify their individual thoughts? Is it to make sure you aren’t crazy? Either you believe in your cause, or you don’t. I wouldn’t feel better or worse if the Chairman shared my views.
Elena, why is it so important for you to spend time wondering how other people “peg you”?

Donna isn’t crazy, and she is a good person, but, to this day, her public association with Greg is beyond my understanding.

I don’t believe Corey Stewart is in the same category as GL and FAIR. Stewart is a political opportunist who saw immigration as his ticket to another term in what could have been a contested race with Pandak since Stewart hadn’t done much with his “Stop the Sprawl” promise made in the special election. One has to be careful, though, with who you pick as your political bedfellows. Do I doubt that Stewart was sincere in his comments to Eric? Not at all. Do I believe that Stewart won’t flip on a dime if it suits his purposes? Not at all. I see Stewart’s approach to governing as very Machiavellian but without the necessary subtlety and wherewithal to pull it off effectively.

Elena – Are you saying that your “understanding” is limited only to those who might share your views?
There are a significant amount of people on this board (minus the haters). Im trying to figure out what the common bond is here, and I am not a troll. I am yet to see people answer simple questions asked many times here without blindingly resorting to racism. I am open to trying to find out why there is so much sympathy for those who disregard our laws? Perhaps I am missing part of a big picture? My mind is open.
-not having much trouble deciding

Kenneth Reynolds commented about the PW Group Home. There are two of them, a girls in Manassas and a boys in Woodbridge.
I hope this will help.

I do not know if closing the Group Home would save the County money or not. I know that payments are made to the group home by the county out of a State program, Comprehensive Services for At Risk Youth and Families. The county has to pay 34.14% for the cost of services out general fund dollars. 65.86% of the cost of services is reimbursed by the state. Youth for Tomorrow is considered a Residential Treatment Facility. Youth for Tomorrow conducts an educational program, too. They would be charging for the Room and Board, Education and any other service the youth may need i.e. mental health services. I know the per diem cost to the PW Group Home is $175.00 per day and I do not know if there are additional costs to the County for education and counseling. Youth for tomorrow charges $130-$141 for Room and Board, $58 per day for education and if a child needs counseling that is a $14-$22 a day charge. The State reimbursement rate for Residential Services is going to increase in FY09 to localities so PW Co will be paying a higher percent of the cost for children placed in Residential Treatment. I know that in 2007 they had 69 children in the group homes.

The $130-141 to YFT for Room and Board is a per day charge. Sorry, guess my fingers were going faster than my brain.

Undecided,

I think I can speak for many on this board (certainly not all), that we feel the current immigration law is broken and that the Feds do realize that, which is why they are not actively going after undocumented people like PWC wants to do. They have made a “show of force” in recent weeks (raids), I think, in an effort to pacify those that do not approve of the “lawbreakers” presence in our country.

Regardless, the federal government knows that we need these workers here and that there is no practical way to simply rid the country of 12 M undocumented people and leave the economy unscathed. Right here in our area we have 3% unemployment. Throughout history, 5% unemployment has been considered “full employment” so we technically have a labor shortage in Northern Virginia. Yet our County leaders want to run these workers out of our County. These workers who pay taxes (undocumented workers pump BILLIONS into Social Security annually that they will not collect), purchase groceries and clothing, pay their trash, water and electric bills etc.

The federal government knows the law is broken and they are trying to work on ways to fix it. Their plans do not include deportation of 12 M people. That is reality. So when federal law finally changes and these people can become documented, we will be left holding the bag as unwelcoming to newcomers and they won’t want to come back here. That may be fine by a lot of people, but if those people are now legal, why wouldn’t you want them back here. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…a LARGE percentage of the currently legal immigrant population was once here illegally. So why do so many people say “but I don’t have a problem with LEGAL immigrants!” They were illegal before, what makes them so different than a person they came over here with that remains undocumented? Nothing!!!!

undecided said on 23 Apr 2008 at 4:10 pm:

Undecided, I will explain what I do not understand:

I would never resort, to proving my point, by calling a specific sect of people all criminals.

I would never associate with someone who created a post that referred to people as dog food.

I would not censor opposing views on a blog and yet allow, openly racist views to go unchallenged.

I would never be seen associating in a friendly manner, on mulitiple occassions, with a person who had worked with a known hate group like FAIR and had themselves been labeled a “nativist”

There are plenty of reasonable discussions to partake in without resorting to racism when it comes to the questions of immigration. What simple question do you want answered?

This issue cannot be reduced to “illegal is illegal”. THAT is not an American value. Our country has been built on immigrants. In past large waves of immigrants, you didn’t “stand” in line, you showed up on a boat with minimal paperwork. I have looked into the history of our first immigratiaon laws, they were premised upon racist views, i.e. the KKK being responsible for the Johnson Act of 1924. We, as a nation, have struggled with demographic change since the time of Ben Franklin. All I have ever advocated is a thoughtful humane honest approach, taking into consideration our Declaration of Independence, the peom on the statue of Liberty, and how we incorporate those basic American values with a much needed labor force. I have asked questions, how does the implementation of NAFTA, or its lack of implementation, effect our southern border neighbors? However, there is a misconception that every immigrant who is latin is Mexican. That is untrue. Hazelton PA HAD a large population of Brazilians, yet they still passed an expansive anti immigration law.

What role is FAIR playing in this local, state, and national debate?

In addition to the over $7 billion that undocumented residents pump into Social Security, I would also like to add that undocumented pay billions in federal tax and millions in state tax as well. It goes without saying they pay sales tax, personal property tax, buy license plates (another tax) pay real estate tax through home ownership or rent. They will never be able to collect one dime of Social Security and the rebates that everyone else is going to get they will not be entitled to receive, even though they paid taxes. But they do not complain. That is the ticket they signed for a better life and a chance to gain citizenship.

Ditto, Elena.

Marie/Elena,

I second those opinions!

Oops!! My fingers were faster than my brain again. Do they complain? No they do not. They were happy to sign that ticket for a better life and a chance to gain citizenship.

Okay here it is, Corey Stewart’s message for PWC constituents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGLZxi_U-wM

WOW….two EXCELLENT letters today to the MJM editor regarding SUPPORT for the Resolution! VIVA LA LEY! (Hey, Firedancer, that means “LONG LIVE THE LAW! in Spanish)

Undecided,

I don’t think you have characterized this blog accurately. No one here would suggest you support illegal aliens, whatever that means.

You seem to have given a great deal of thought to something you are still undecided on. What is it that you want to decide? Why does the issue of illegal immigration have to be an all or nothing proposition? Every time I hear someone say ‘which SIDE are you on,’ I wonder why a person has to choose a ’side.’ Are mixed feeings not allowed.

I am not sure exactly what you are looking for here.

Elena, thanks for your response.

You said – “I would never resort, to proving my point, by calling a specific sect of people all criminals. I would never associate with someone who created a post that referred to people as dog food.”

- I just did a google archive search. The “dog food” post was made by a “Madam Mofo”. Was the IP traced to Greg? That would be near impossible to do without help from law enforcement. I don’t know HSM that well, however I have lurked his forum. I see a few crazies on his board (and a few here), but I have never seen Greg himself stray from the illegal issue. Additionally – when you say sect – do you mean ethnicity or religion or illegal aliens in particular? Do you think that Illegal Aliens are in fact not illegal?

You said – “This issue cannot be reduced to “illegal is illegal”. THAT is not an American value. Our country has been built on immigrants.”

So where do we draw the line at which illegal things are OK? I completely agree – and RESPECT – that our contry is built on immigrants from all over the world. However more and more people are wanting cizizenship at a rate we cannot keep up with, and we need to control the amount coming in. Doesn’t respecting our own law constitute an American value? If we don’t like the law, then we as Americans can work to fix it – and you have my respect for getting involved in that manner. With that said, I do not see it as an American value to openly support, sympathize, and harbor those who have disregard for our laws.

I have dozens of questions (see undecided on 23 Apr 2008 at 1:47 pm: in this forum).

Actually, illegal aliens never really bothered me. However the illegals were taking things too far. They got greedy. The lack of law enforcement created luxuries that American citizens to not have. Now that we have law enforcement, its a shock to the system.

That – is an American value. We could argue about all sorts of contriversial laws all day, but that is the system our country relies on for what we are allowed to do. My views see no specific immigrant group, only those individuals who break the law at citizen’s expense. Once an illegal enters the country, his/her options are limited to where they must commit more illegal activities to profit. It may start with joining a gang, stealing an identity, scamming a hospital (us citizens have to pay for such luxuries), getting a false license, not paying taxes. Yes, some Americans are guilty of these crimes as well, but they do not expect immunity, and they have no group of people saying that they should be allowed to brake those laws.

Marie – heard that arguement many times. How can anyone determine that illegals paid 7 billion in SS if they arent documented in the 1st place? Most of them get paid under the table. Those immigrants dont pay a cent of income tax. Truth is – NO ONE has a clue as to how many are here, and how many/few pay taxes. Even the best experts can only take a stab in the dark on those estimates, and they will admit to that. Many who do pay taxes are doing so under someone elses SS number. The IRS then assumes the citizens who had their identity stolen by the Illegal made more money then they actually do, resulting in the LEGAL citizen paying the tax.

Undecided, you struck a chord with me when you noted that one side is called “Mexicans Without Borders.” Why is it that they can identify themselves by their ethnicity, erect a wall spewing all kinds of hatred against white citizens, and yet they and their supporters scream “racism” when anyone suggests any kind of control against illegal immigration.

I think if the PWC resolution went away tomorrow, it wouldn’t be enough–my sense is that no one on that side of the Wall feels there should be any restriction WHATSOEVER–the undocumented persons are here, we should just live with it and shut up, otherwise we are all racists. The resolution clearly targets criminals, not folks who are just minding their business and obeying the laws. That is why I actually do think that the PWC police should be provided with cameras, in order to protect them from charges of racial bias.

The resolution goes away, and then you’ll hear screaming about reopening day-labor centers, allowing businesses to employ all of the undocumented workers they need–on and on until undocumented persons have all of the rights and privileges of citizenship without any of the burdens.

Undecided,

Marie said- heard that arguement many times. How can anyone determine that illegals paid 7 billion in SS if they arent documented in the 1st place? Most of them get paid under the table. Those immigrants dont pay a cent of income tax. Truth is – NO ONE has a clue as to how many are here, and how many/few pay taxes. Even the best experts can only take a stab in the dark on those estimates, and they will admit to that. Many who do pay taxes are doing so under someone elses SS number. The IRS then assumes the citizens who had their identity stolen by the Illegal made more money then they actually do, resulting in the LEGAL citizen paying the tax.

Undecided,

First you have a couple of things wrong here. The SS administration SAYS that they collect those billions of dollars from people whose names don’t match SS numbers. That is their number and THEY attribute it to illegal aliens. And contrary to popular belief, most illegal immigrants DO NOT get paid under the table. Do you think CMC and Lansdowne were paying cash? Are you crazy?!!! Of course they were not…they paid their employees with a check with taxes taken out of it just like all employers pay their people. Yes, there are day laborers, but they comprise a very small fraction of the total illegal work force. They pay BILLIONS in income tax and many do not file a return since they don’t have a SS number to match their name. Therefore, they do not get the refund you and I do. They certainly do not need to PAY more if they filed a return. And SS identifies it when a number is being used by 2 people and the name only matches one of them…no one is paying taxes on the money an illegal earns with their number.

Moon-howler
Totally fair statement about all or nothing. As of right now I am not a fan of any side. I have given this a HUGE amount of thought as it does affect me and my family (4 kids, homeschooled because public schools have lowered learning curves to accomidate illegal aliens). However, there is a human right issue as well. It is very difficult to get to the root of the issue as hatred is spewed everywhere and everyone wants to bring race into it for thier own benefit.

Undecided,

You might want to go check out that dog food google again. I have no ownership of that disgusting post either on this blog or any other. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply mistaken.

1. I think Stewart is a liar and a hypocrite. If he were not, he’d do the right thing. I can’t trust one single thing he says. I wouldn’t trust Stirrup to carry my grocery bags. The other supervisors, I don’t feel this way about. They have time to redeem themselves by opposing Stewart’s and Stirrup’s motvivations which at best are selfish and destructive to the county.

2. James, I’m all set with you. If you don’t believe in democracy, then there’s nothing more to discuss. This is the United States, and while I don’t believe every country in the world needs to replicate the U.S. that’s what we have here and I believe in it. End of story.

3. I never thought Donna was crazy. I have no idea what her relationship to GL is and at this point, I don’t want to. I’d rather see her for her and not her association with someone I consider hateful and dangerous.

4. Undecided, you are asking some pretty broad questions, many of which have already been discussed on this blog. You might want to do some general Internet searches to catch yourself up. As far as the ESL and school academic levels, though, my first question would be, did you discuss your concern with the school admin. and if that didn’t work, did you go to the school board? Those would be the appropriate steps before taking your kids out of a school.

“some Americans are guilty of these crimes as well, but they do not expect immunity, and they have no group of people saying that they should be allowed to brake those laws.” Actually, Undecided, we have many, many criminals who believe this and who have people defending them in this manner. And many of these criminals are white collar and politicians who believe they should be above the law because they are wealthy or have political connections.

Madam Mofo: Perhaps someone used your screen name.

see the link:
http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/02/hilda-barg-slams-corey-stewart-for-attacking-chief-deane/

Madam Mofo said on 2 Apr 2008 at 5:41 pm:
I see that we have had an invasion of parasites and vermin from somewhere. Is this the time I start looking around for some dog food?

“I am open to trying to find out why there is so much sympathy for those who disregard our laws?” Because the laws and the process are screwed up. Because people who have violated these laws have commited a CIVIL offense that can be worked out, not a criminal one.

- There is a reason that we have limited the amount of immigrants to this country, and contrary to popular belief (in this forum), it is not a republican conspiracy to rid the country of “brownies”. We have illegals coming in as such a rate that the infrastructure simply cannot handle it. I will also be as bold to say that it should be a slow process from a cultural side. People on both sides should be allowed the proper time to adapt to cultural change. What is happening in our county is proof of this — look at how our county has become divided.
- Greg’s group is called “Help save Manassas”. His title does not call out Latinos. The opposing side is called “Mexicans Without Borders”. They acknowledge themselves as representing Mexicans, and they are just as much subject to criticism as any other group. It is not fair that when anything is said objectively about them, it is considered racist. To me this comes off as stereotyping all white people as racists — quite ironic in that view is racist as well. With that said, it should be acknowledged that there are a small group of racists in this county who want Latino’s out, and they are using the “illegal” issue as an opportunity to spread hate. This does not excuse “Mexicans Without Borders” to take advantage of America’s current racial sensitivity as a tool to block anyone from objecting to their agenda.
- How can people say that illegals are paying their fair share of taxes — especially SS taxes? Aren’t most of them getting paid cash under the table? It doesn’t take an expert to realize that sales tax on a Big Gulp isn’t to cover emergency room and education costs. Paying rent helps in the form of property taxes, but it still falls way short. If they are paying income taxes, does it not mean that they have likely paid for false identification (probably without realizing that they have paid someone unscrupulous for someone else’s identity)?
- How is it not a black and white issue that they are illegal? Some use the comparison of when whites first came here, that they were illegal too, but fought to overcome, and that is what the Latinos are doing as well.
When Europeans came to America, the Indians were here first. By some standards, yes, the whites were considered “illegal”. There was much fighting, and the Europeans prevailed. When we took part of the southwest from Mexico, there was a war, and the United States won. If illegals take on this stance – that tells me that they are willing to go to war over this again. I certainly hope that this is not true. However, every time I hear this argument used, this is what they are saying to me.
- When a legal tax-paying American has a major medical issue, the health costs can cause them to go into bankruptcy. The illegal alien will usually take the easier path of switching identities when the bill comes, as the underground networks of illegal identification are easily accessible. When we had the aggressive driving laws, they were also immune from having to pay the exuberant fines. The examples of illegals immune from regular American costs are endless. This has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but everything to do with benefits that they have that legal Americans do not.
As for the cops pulling people over, what is the great mystery in how they determine whether or not to question legal status? Is it when they fail to provide a driver’s license? or if the license is clearly a fake? Has anyone been asked for their identity when simply walking down the street? At a soccer game? At 7/11? Is there any proof that more Latinos have been pulled over in general? When you sneak into the country, again you are aware you have done so illegally, and there should be some fear that you might get caught. Anything else is a mockery of our laws.
When a pro-illegal advocate uses the word “undocumented”, it comes off like they are trying to reprogram the public into thinking that they aren’t doing anything wrong. This comes across as deceiving the public. “It’s simply a matter of paperwork which makes them undocumented” they say. This is not the case. We have decided as a country for very specific and well-thought out reasons to limit the amount of people coming into this country. People coming here are indeed illegal just as much as someone without the paperwork saying they have a college degree does not have a college degree. I’m not racist against someone without a college degree, but that shouldn’t give them the right to be able to demand a job which requires it.
I ask this group to show me why I should support illegal aliens.
Thanks
-Undecided

From Kenneth – We dont have to call it a Republican conspiracy since Pres Bush tried unsucessfullly to resolve the matter last year and the Right Wingers blocked…..the problem from my perspective is the way the BOCS tried to do something about the matter…..by going to FAIR – a radical anti-immigration group and we became suckers for FAIR…The BOCS should have gone to the County staff and determine what they could do…instead of making the Resolution up while they went along…..angering everyone…..look at the idiotic services they block …..when they started they were going to block kids from schools (illegal) and they would stop illegals from getting social secuity–they werent….and again, the BOCS could have found this all out before sticking their public collective asses out in public. The BOCS s/h counted the number and types of issues that people were complaining about and they would have found that the BOCS could have done a lot with this data….neighborhood over crowding, disorderly conduct, lack of car insurance…but no,stewwart went the CNN route…….alll so he could get re-elected.

It isnt HSM vs. Mexicans w/o Borders…many of us know how split the Latinos are …..radicals….Greg was campaign mgr for Corey…and used FAIR to get what he wanted…look at the press con that he and stewart and stirrup held……all making idiotic suggestions…..stepping into the police dept and screwing up what they do—Latinos stopped telling police where the criminals are and now the police arrest all these people and firat had to find them committing some other ccrimes…0 = 0.

TAxes – therre are studies out that prove both sides..BUT Greg isnt charged with nforcing what he thinks are violations of tax codes. Our hospitals are privaate corporations ……..the g ovt has not say in what they do…….we do have a county sponsored health clinic to save those who are sick, dying, w/o insurance ….. but the tax thing…look at all the studies…….but dammit dont swallow the crap that HSM gives out when they dont have proof of what they are saying….illegals DONT get social security….if they did…….hSM isnt the enforcer. You call people pro-illegal….some are pro…..following the law…not making laws up to get re-elected at our expense!!!

I know you are being sincere in what you say….but we s/follow the lead of the appropriate levels of govt and not those of bigoted right wing anti immigrant groups…..hope this helps

kgotthardt
There is no group out there trying to “Free the Identity Thieves” (except one, ahem).

“Undecided, you are asking some pretty broad questions, many of which have already been discussed on this blog. You might want to do some general Internet searches to catch yourself up. ”

I have obsessivly been watching this board (and bvbl) for some time now. I asked the questions I did because I have never heard straight answers. I hear shouts of hate and broad accusations.

So Undecided, DID you contact the school Admin. about the ESL problems?

Kenneth Reynolds
Thanks for the response. Let me read this one carefully.

TWINAD
You as well. Have to deal with rush hour now.

Thank you everyone for spirited and positive debate.

So, Undecided, DID you contact the school Admin. about the ESL problems?

kgotthardt – OK must go home now – but Yes. We had much discussion before deciding to pull my oldest son from school. We were heavily involved in many talks with everyone from teachers, princepal, school admin during both of his years at Sudley Manor. They were probably glad to see us go!

What did they say about it?

(When you get time…I see you have to go.)

Undecided,

It was sarcasm and distain for a different posting. There was no picture posted. It was comment on another issue.

Obviously you know exactly what you are looking for. You might want to read on down for about 10 posts. There is a full explanation.

Madam Mofo – I see your apology and sorry you got dragged into this one.
I am trying to find the specific post that Elena was referring to.

kgotthardt – We spoke about our own son’s development in the school, and what the school was in the position to provide. The school’s hands were pretty much tied up. Being it is a personal issue with my son, I would prefer to keep any other details private. I certainly do not specifically blame the school. We took matters into our own hands and have decided to home school.

undecided,
Greg deleted the post, only after I brought the disgusting post to the light of day. I, of course, have a hard copy. You can view the post from the 9500 liberty youtube video. I have kids to take care of, bath time, etc so I can’t address your very valid questions right now. Will be sure to return later

Elena – Fair enough – I have the same duties with my kids. Thanks for the heads up tho.

undecided said: “With that said, I do not see it as an American value to openly support, sympathize, and harbor those who have disregard for our laws.” Don’t forget it is also not an American value to *reward* them for breaking immigration laws. Remember, even with the dems in control of congress, amnesty was DEFEATED last year – the voices of the people were heard loud & clear.

In all this discussion about what was cut and what wasn’t cut from the funding for the resolution, I’ve seen little mention of what this means for the schools. From what I understand, for every penny below the $1.00 rate, the schools will need to find another $6 million to cut from their budget. With a potential rate of $0.97, that’s $18 million more from the school budget.

I am “amused” by all these people who keep saying the $6 million “saved” by the reduction in the number of ESOL students can be used to pay for the resolution. That $6 million (if it even existed-it doesn’t-there’s some savings but it’s no where near $6 million) doesn’t even cover what the schools have had to cut from their budget to get to the level provided by the $1.00 rate. I am scared to think about what will need to be cut if another $18 million needs to be found some place.

These are the true costs of the resolution. These cuts mean more delays in building needed schools (because contrary to the hype, the school system is still *growing* and schools are still crowded). I know the county has been working on getting a Governor’s School established in Prince William County (with a program like Thomas Jefferson HS in Fairfax and housed on the GMU Prince William Campus). It’s a joint effort with Manassas and Manassas Park. Think that will happen with this budget?

Yes, 18 million from the school budget. What I’d love to know and I will just have to get on the phone again, but for each 1% drop in the residential real estate property assessments, what does that translate to, in dollars? PWC has had close to a 15% drop in the residential real estate values which has to severely impact the budget.

kgotthardt said “If you don’t believe in democracy, then there’s nothing more to discuss. This is the United States, and while I don’t believe every country in the world needs to replicate the U.S. that’s what we have here and I believe in it.”

I don’t know whether your comment is simply a function of a woefully inadequate (probably government) education, or willful ignorance. I likewise don’t know whether to laugh or to cry that someone could be so incredibly WRONG about our very form of government and still presume to comment about public affairs.

As for whether you’re “all set with [me],” that’s fine. I’ll cast my lot with Madison, Jay, Hamilton, and Washington, and you can cast yours with … well, whomever is equally ignorant about our form of government. But please don’t speak to me about “rights” you have lost to “democracy,” for the ultimate power in a “democracy” is the will of the majority. And if your touchstone is the will of the majority, then “rights” are nothing more than quaint relics.

kgotthardt thinks the illegals deserve a pass because since white people commit crimes and get away with it (sometimes) them the illegals should too. What a crock! James young has it right, make up your damn mind! it’s just a big conspiracy against the poor mexicans!! in a few months you’ll find some other cause to support when the hoopla dies down on immigration

I dont hear anyone here complaining about mexicans without borders and how racist they are..

I didnt hear anyone really answer undecided’s questions. kgotthardt in her infinite wisdom said “go look it up yourself” unless there’s a fight involved she doesnt bite. Again, a sure sign of a radical looking for a cause to spit at whatever it is.

what’s the real problem here? cannot it really be whittled down to illegal vs. non-illegal? I think it can, the law should be black and white on this matter. if you have a wobbly standard what good is it? is there EVER going to be a standard/law that EVERYONE agrees with? Nope. Dont think it’s Constitutional? Talk to the supreme court.

is the government doing everything it can to help the issue out? Nope.

is there anything we can do about it? Yep..it’s called voting.

what about that “immigrant” resolution? (by the way it’s call rule of law, I’ve never heard it called an “immigrant resolution” except by kgotthardt. PWC citizens voted for it and we got it..nuff said there.

comments?

Luckyduck,

I heard those promises also when the BOCS tried to snow us into buying into the ‘Resolution.’ I also notice that when it came to paying for the said promises, the Honorable Mr. Stewart started the slash and trash program with the budget.

Thank you for explaining the REAL impact of the non-replacement of officers. So much of what we get told from the powers that be is truly mumbo jumbo and it makes no sense to me.

You are right, this is no way to run a county.

I think everyone on this blog needs to remind our supervisors what they promised Chief Deane. He was told that he would have the tools he needed and the personnel to get the job done. I would say he was lied to.

Jo Blow & James Young – agreed and well said.

Emma – agreed. That hate-based sign has got to me the most bizarre strategy I have ever seen. It reads like a drunken ramble, and it is amazing they have ANY credibility at all for not distancing themselves from it.

Kenneth – I agree and applaud with how you are going about making your decision not to support the resolution. I have been in the process of researching the resolution’s effects on our county so far. I have basically come to the conclusion that everyone who posts “facts” about the good and bad has an agenda. Im taking a “wait and see” approach, and leaning towards support towards the resolution – for now. I do understand that some hard-core right wingers in FAIR had a lot to do with getting this thing started. However the other side has the heavy-duty left wingers trying to stop it by throwing mud. Seems to me like these outside interests have a lot of profit by getting everyone worked up.

I just don’t see our legal Latinos packing up and leaving town due to their being offended by the resolution. This is their area just as much as it is ours. They may not be giving the cops crime tips as you pointed out, but letting them hold that over our heads and using it as a bargaining chip is bad strategy as well.

elvis – agreed. I believe that the resolution is the will of the people. I don’t think it is perfectt, but at least we are doing something about it. Both sides have evil political gains, but we are the ones who have to live here.
Usually when you go into forums like this I expected to hear a smoking gun that is driving everyone’s opinion. All I am seeing is hate for the other side, and overly-general responses like “Thats Unamerican”! People for the resolution have given specific reasons and letigimate issues.

Admin

Currently 1 penny equals $5.3million in revenue. (Market adjustments notwithstanding. The schools receive 56.75% and the county retains 43.25%

Undecided,
Here are my answers to some of your questions:

Having been in the public school system, it is NOT ESOL students that have created the system we are in right now, I believe it is the SOL testing dynamic. Teachers and schools must pass the SOL standards or they lose funding, end of story.
The only criminal activity the OTHER reports on is either Hispanic or “illegal’s”, thus giving the impression that our community is overrun with vicious Latino and/or illegal’s committing crime. He doesn’t have to say it’s Latinos, he only talks about border control and Mexico. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to make the connection. There is NEVER a positive headline about a Latino. I could go on, but I’m tired. He calls all “illegal’s” criminals so when he puts up a post suggesting “Illegal alien criminals” make good dog food, we should all be outraged. He claims he censors racist comments. Oh please, we have a saved thread where he accidentally posted comments he has censored. Not ONE, not ONE, was racist, but they were ALL against Greg and his ideology. He can pretend that he is just too busy to “babysit”, but the reality is, he has more than enough time to censor comments that are contrary his belief system. Monticup, a regular poster and Park’d commonly write outrageous comments. In fact, Monitcup called children parasites and Greg did not nothing. Not only did he not censor, he didn’t even comment on the vile post.

Twinad addressed the tax issue, and many would agree with that assessment. I am wondering how you know what people do and do not pay regarding their medical costs. On this one, I might agree, but even if your premise is true, there are still plenty of studies that suggest illegal immigrants still give more than they take in school and health care costs. Check out the council on foreign relations and do a search for immigration cost to benefit ratio.

“Infrastructure overload”. Once again, there is plenty of research to show that there is still a benefit from this labor force. I have advocated, being that specific localities bear a larger burden; the Feds should allocate additional monies to help offset the burden.

I am not pro-illegal. I am pro-fix the broken immigration system, I am pro-figure out what is wrong with NAFTA that it is having a negative effect on Mexico’s economy, I am pro- remember the famous poem on the statue of liberty, I am pro- create safer borders, I am pro-create task forces to deal with community issues that this resolution did not address, I am pro-immigration, I am pro-learn your history regarding the genesis of immigration restrictions in this country, start with the KKK and people will learn alot.

Also, the reason why people say “undocumented” is because these are actual immigration terms. There are different labels for different levels of status in this country. If you are here , never having held a legal visa and have never been given deportation papers, you are “undocumented” in the eyes of immigration law.

Now I see your post to “elvis”. Now undecided, you have made your position clear. You have received plenty of factual responses and yet now you choose to suggest the answers you have received are too general. Why would there be a “smoking gun”? Immigration is a complicated issues, and as I have repeatedly said, one that has been contentious since Ben Franklin.

What do you mean by “both sides have evil political gain”? What am I gaining? What are any of us gaining here, except trying to find thoughtful solutions and not some dummied down mantra “illegal is illegal”. I have seen no proof from the Greg’s side, at least proof that isn’t propaganda. I don’t know who you are, but you came here with your mind decided not “undecided”.

There have been many rants from THE OTHER about “you have been warned”, “you will pay the price”, “you will be judged”, you will this you will that……….

Those tactics are not maintstream society. These tactic are not about outcome at all. These are about fear, force and control. Now I am not a profiler but there is a certain consistancy with that approach and specific organizations.

He said, she said matters not when these are the underlyng issues.

“elvis – agreed. I believe that the resolution is the will of the people. I don’t think it is perfectt, but at least we are doing something about it. Both sides have evil political gains, but we are the ones who have to live here.
Usually when you go into forums like this I expected to hear a smoking gun that is driving everyone’s opinion. All I am seeing is hate for the other side, and overly-general responses like “Thats Unamerican”! People for the resolution have given specific reasons and letigimate issues.”

1. It was the will of SOME people, the majority to do not represent PWC citizens including people who don’t even live in this county. (See the FOIA’s.)
2. Not sure where you are seeing hate from the other side, but I don’t see it here. I hear anger, frustration, sadness, and confusion. Just like you are frustrated with crowded neighborhoods, some people are frustrated as hell with the lack of due process and justice in this country (I’m one of them).
3. It IS Unamerican to deny us democracy and a voice. The BOCS has denied us both these things.

Undecided, people who do this for free and are not in office have little to gain except hopefully a better, more peaceful community and justice for all. I’m seeing patriots here, not political sycophants (as we see in bigoted and/or partisan groups including our BOCS).

Here you go, Elivs, the IMMIGRATION RESOLUTION, kindly provided to you by Admin.

http://www.antibvbl.net/index.php/2008/04/17/immigration-resolution-review/

elena:
I wasn’t sticking up from Greg in my initial post to you as much as questioning that which you claim not to understand.
There are dozens of studies on both sides. My main issue is with schools. I AM undecided, but leaning. I guess I haven’t found a group to side with yet. I have many mixed views.

kgotthardt:
When reading my original comment I can see how you took it the way you did. I pasted one thought in between another. My apologies. when I said that both sides have evil political gain, I was talking about 2 national extremest organizations (one on each side) getting involved for noteriety at our expense. – not anyone in this group!

So what steps exactly did you take with the school, Undecided? I’m curious because I know this is a major complaint among some groups.

(Oh and NP about the extremists. I just didn’t know who you were referring to, Undecided.)

kgotthardt – We spoke with our teacher regularily to get additional school-work for our son. We spoke with both the princapal and the school admin, and in a nutshell they said their hands were tied. I dont blame the school. Elena answered one on my questions in detail and I am going to research it.

I’ve got some spare time so am going to take a stab at Undecided’s posts. I will be a succinct and serious as possible.
1. reasons we have limited immigration to this country are largely political and relate very little to what our infrastructure can absorb. Since the 90’s immigration law shifted to focus on family and employment based, rather than national quotas. Important to note that the rate of immigrants to the native born population is actually much lower today than in the early 1900’s. There have been overtly racist laws in the past that were later revoked for purely geopolitical and strategic reasons. Don’t idealize our current immigration law as a sound basis for argument, it is full of folly and is always a work in progress that demands public scrutiny.

2.Help Save Mexicans is in my mind the very worst representation for immigrants in PW County imaginable. I was rather adament that they stay out of Loudoun. They have contributed significantly to the level of vitrioul in the community.

3.Yes, most undocumented immigrants do pay their fair share of taxes. A relatively small amount of illegal immigrants work under the table. Take ICEs raid of Lansdowne resort. 59 workers apprehended, all illegal, all on payroll, all paid taxes.

4. A couple of ways it may not be black and white. They may be eligible for adjustment of status and not know it until they get legal representation. Example, a situation of domestic violence when the abuser is a resident and the abused is illegal. A victim of human trafficking. Another example, a terrible earthqauke hits El Salvador. It wreaks havok. The governement opens up TPS (temporary protected status) to all Salvadoreans who are currently here illegaly. They are given work permits for extandable periods of time. Last example, a refugee has entered the country illegally but is able to apply for refugee status.
4. I won’t even touch the part about illegals taking some sort of stance comperable to an armed conquest. It is beyond ridiculous.
5. I rather think that the kind of medical crisis that would cause bankruptcy for an American is a bad example in the valid point that you are making. Reason being, that would generally be a long term chronic disease and accumulated medical expenses. In that instance it would be much more devestating to an illegal immigrant who does not have access to that kind of healthcare to begin with. If you are referring to a hospital emergency room bill than I would agree. It is obviously easier for an illegal immigrant to “walk”.
I think it is helpful also to look at the overall quality of life of an illegal immigrant as opposed to an American when examening percieved “benifits”, which I think is a poor choice or words. Ask yourself this, if there were no illegal immigarnst in the US, woudl this issue be resolved for American citizens? Well, no, not really. You have hit on a US healthcare crisis for which illegal immigrants are not to blame.
6. Propable cause is a very serious matter and there should be clear definitions and quidelines. This does not only relates to the Resolution. Think of probable cause for search. If there are no clear quidelines, or the established protocol isn’t followed, a person with a ton of weed in their trunk can get off the hook.
7. Who in the world is a “pro-illegal immigrant adocate’? Who would advocate for keeping an illegal immigrant illegal? You need to adjust the paradigm or you will be chasing your own tail. We all need to adjust the paradigm and be more forward thinking, solution oriented, right? Lets not get into the endless cycle of debate over whether or not illegal immigranst are a net harm or a net benifit. We don’t want 15 million illegal immigrants.

8. As an individual we should be a good sumeritans and kind neighbors. We should support comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level that works to intelligently secure our borders, provide vastly greater pathways for legal entry into the US as our economy demands and is able to support, provides for an opportunity for illegal immigrants to adjust their status, unless they have commited crimes (other than violation of civil statuates)in which case they should be deported. The plan would also involve ways of improving the infrastructure and economies of the countries of origin to reduce to impetus for immigration. We should support local solutions to local problems. Zoning enforcement, nonprofit solutions to community integration, etc.

“kgotthardt – We spoke with our teacher regularily to get additional school-work for our son. We spoke with both the princapal and the school admin, and in a nutshell they said their hands were tied.” Why didn’t you go to the school board?

Valley Girl – thanks for taking the time to write a well-thought response.

A few notes…
“A relatively small amount of illegal immigrants work under the table.”
How do we know how many? How can even an expert give a ballpark? Sure, they busted 59 people with SS numbers – but that’s only 3 flop houses worth. And what about those in business for themselves – say independant contractors? painters? etc.

You said “A couple of ways it may not be black and white.” – agreed. There are some exceptions here where they may be legal. I was speaking from the standpoint of someone else’s view that any “illegal alien isn’t really illegal” based on something written on the statue of liberty, or because it is considered de-humanizing to deem someone illegal. I dont consider any human to be illegal, only their action. Similiar to the way I would say “illecit drug user”. The user is not illecit.

You said “I won’t even touch the part about illegals taking some sort of stance comperable to an armed conquest. It is beyond ridiculous.”
People often point out that mexicans were in California first, and that white people were “illegal aliens” too when they first came to America.
I was pointing that out that what they were saying would amount to a conquest. Wars were fought over these issues. I agree it is a ridicuous – but popular arguement.

Your thought on probable cause:
There are clear definitions for probable cause. Cops follow the same rules for everyone. If you are pulled over, and white, but have no license or way to identify yourself, your immigration status would be questioned. The latest results on who the cops pulled over showed that they played by the rules.

Thanks for the insight and answers.

Glad you all are trying to answer Undecided’s questions. Unfortunately, I get really tired of repeating myself. It’s like having to nag the kids to clean their rooms…… : )

Or go to the Super?

kgotthardt – The sumpreme court ruled that illegal or not – you have a right to an education – no matter who you are.

Our standpoint was never to stand in the way of other’s (legal, illegal, whoever) getting an education, only to get the best possible education for my son. The sheer amoung and influx of kids who had little knowledge of English (use this time to stab at my own grammar!) brought down the curve considerably.

We decided it would be best to homeschool. It is a sacrafice – and no – I dont think it’s fair – but I would rather do that then deny any one else’s education.

kgotthardt said: “Glad you all are trying to answer Undecided’s questions. Unfortunately, I get really tired of repeating myself. It’s like having to nag the kids to clean their rooms…… : )”

I know EXACTLY what you mean. However your issue is probably with different people asking the same questions. My issue below is the SAME person asking the same questions.

kgotthardt said on **23 Apr 2008 at 6:10 pm:
So, Undecided, DID you contact the school Admin. about the ESL problems?

undecided said on 23 Apr 2008 at 7:23 pm:
kgotthardt – We spoke about…(snipped)

kgotthardt said on **24 Apr 2008 at 11:43 am:
So what steps exactly did you take with the school, Undecided? I’m curious because I know this is a major complaint among some groups.

//Hi Pot – IM Kettle!

Undecided – I base that on my own personal experience as a case manager for a private noprofit who provided medical care for uninsured children inelligible for state health insurance (Medicaid or FAMIS). As I remember, we enrolled 500 kids in a specific timeframe. Of those 500 kids, 420 were undocumented. Because I had to verify parents income I was able to get a good glimpse into how they were paid. I can only think of about 15 kids whose parents had to provide a written decleration from an employer in leu of a paystub. The rest were able to provide paystubs complete with FICA and Mediacid deductions. This remained the basic scenario in my two years there.
I also base this on the Social Security Admin unclaimed funds account and how that money has grown in relation to the growth of the undocumented population.
In addition, I was with another nonprofit for about 4 years that worked exclusively with recent immigrants and was able to get another closehand view of the employment situations of undocumented immigrants.

Question – what is the PW ESL program like? In Loudoun ESL kids are taught seperatly until they achieve an acceptable level of English to mainstream without negative impacts on Enlish speaking kids. In addition, there are many enrichment programs and opportunties for kids who are advanced, as well as programs for kids that struggle. The ESL population does not have a negative impact on kids in classrooms, the issue is more related to budgeting and allocations of limited resources on the macro level.

“undecided said on 24 Apr 2008 at 12:31 pm:
kgotthardt – The sumpreme court ruled that illegal or not – you have a right to an education – no matter who you are.

Our standpoint was never to stand in the way of other’s (legal, illegal, whoever) getting an education, only to get the best possible education for my son. The sheer amoung and influx of kids who had little knowledge of English (use this time to stab at my own grammar!) brought down the curve considerably.:

Yes, the Supreme Court ruled all children are required to have an education. I didn’t think you were saying this should not be so. But there is something else to consider here. First, undocumented or not, we have high numbers of international students in this area. Now…how do you best deal with high numbers of students who need to learn English?

Many PWC schools have pull-out programs in which students receive specialized education just as students who have special needs do. These students also get assistance IN the classroom through a teachers’ aid. If this is happening and there is enough staffing, then it should not impact the educational level, particularly because the teachers are strictly bound to SOL policies. So what you are really talking about here is instructional method and administration. I definately would have taken this to the Super and School Board because they need to know if their ESOL program isn’t working.

I’ve heard the many of the same people who argue about having to pay for “illegals” in the schools argue against ESOL anyway. They just don’t believe it’s okay to have foreign speaking children in the classroom, period.

kgotthardt – The school worked with us on many workarounds. He was moved up for certain classes, but when his class is 70% not speaking english, there just isn’t a lot you can do. ESOL class isn’t all day. All of the other classes suffer when you have language issues of that magnitude. I would be better off letting my wife (who is sleeping) chime in on how it all went down. I played a smaller part in the issue. I will say that I met many of the moms, who openly admitted to being illegal aliens (remember this was a few years ago). At the time I really didn’t make a big deal of it. Even my son’s 1st grade teacher said he would be better off homeschooled. We were already considering it as my wife used to be a teacher. However, not that we have 4 kids, it is not so easy.

I do have a beef with how fast things changed around here. I don’t have the time to read and research every book and webpage under the sun to become more credible in this room, however I think my concerns as a citizen are valid. I believe that we need to – as a county AND a country, have complete control over how many can enter at a time. I believe it did happen too quick here, and I support the resolution for that reason. I understand that is was started by FAIR. I have no love for them, nor do I have any love for the Southern Poverty Law Center. Both interets are race-driven in my book. My issue is with those who are illegal. I am not concerned with what happened with immigration law 100 years ago. I am concerned about right here, right now in PWC.

Undecided
Please explain, with unbiased evidence, how the SPLC is race driven. If there wasn’t racism or lets say for example, a hispanic teengager brutally beaten simply because he was hispanic, we wouldn’t NEED such an organziation. Is the anti-defamation league also “race driven” ?

I think that to understand where we are today, we must first understand where we have come from, especially when it comes to the evolution of our immigration policy. That FAIR began this process IS at the very heart of what is wrong with the racial climate in PWC today. Their role cannot and should not be ignored Undecided. No one is denying that there has been a sudden demographic change, but if the next president, create the willpower to overhaul our immigration system, and people,who are proven to be hard working,independent, and committed to legal are given that opportunity, these neighborhoods will be in the EXACT same boat today. Only now we will have to find reasonable ways to deal with the tension created when their is such a sudden demographic change. I can tell you this,it won’t be a legal solution.

Marie said on 23 Apr 2008 at 4:29 pm:
Kenneth Reynolds commented about the PW Group Home. There are two of them, a girls in Manassas and a boys in Woodbridge.
I hope this will help.
I do not know if closing the Group Home would save the County money or not. I know that payments are made to the group home by the county out of a State program, Comprehensive Services for At Risk Youth and Families. The county has to pay 34.14% for the cost of services out general fund dollars. 65.86% of the cost of services is reimbursed by the state. Youth for Tomorrow is considered a Residential Treatment Facility. Youth for Tomorrow conducts an educational program, too. They would be charging for the Room and Board, Education and any other service the youth may need i.e. mental health services. I know the per diem cost to the PW Group Home is $175.00 per day and I do not know if there are additional costs to the County for education and counseling. Youth for tomorrow charges $130-$141 for Room and Board, $58 per day for education and if a child needs counseling that is a $14-$22 a day charge. The State reimbursement rate for Residential Services is going to increase in FY09 to localities so PW Co will be paying a higher percent of the cost for children placed in Residential Treatment. I know that in 2007 they had 69 children in the group homes.
Marie said on 23 Apr 2008 at 4:31 pm:
The $130-141 to YFT for Room and Board is a per day charge. Sorry, guess my fingers were going faster than my brain.

Kenneth said – Thank you Marie…you are the type of person who has the facts, knows what she is talking about, and should be reflected in County leadership. My problem with the Group Homes is that YFT is throwing numbers at the county in hopes of stealing the job…this would all be sorted out in competitive bids and maybe public hearings. I also object to Stewart trying to use something like this as a budget gimmick….screw up this too!!

James Young said on 23 Apr 2008 at 2:40 pm:
kgotthardt, I really wish you’d make up your mind. First, you complain about targeting minorities for racist reasons. Then you complain that “they don’t care about democracy or the majority.” First, I don’t want a Board that “cares,” particularly when it does so with my money. I want a Board which faithfully executes its duties. Second, I hope “they don’t care about democracy.” Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on who’s for dinner. We don’t HAVE a democracy; we have a representative republic. As for “the majority,” I seem to recall that Chairman Stewart won election — TWICE — with rather substantial majorities, once after passage of the resolution, in the only “survey” or “poll” that truly counts. I suppose it’s your privilege to continue to whine about the resolution, but it clearly enjoys the support of “the majority.” Indeed, it enjoys the support of EVERY MEMBER of the Board, save for Frank Principi, who wasn’t there to vote for it. And he certainly hasn’t tried to rescind it. Third, “citizens’ time” is an opportunity for people to exercise their right of free speech. However, there is no concomitant obligation on the part of the Board to “listen,” which you seem to imply.

Kenneth said – James – Corey won 55-45% in the 2nd election….true…..but remember, that wa with 30% of the county voting…….i just wanted to qualfy your grandiose statement!!!

Uh, Ken, the world is run by those who show up, at least in a democratic republic. And that “30% of the county voting” is obviously much more representative than even the most outrageous showing at any County BOCS meeting, including the circus last year. Mine wasn’t a “grandiose statement,” but yours was obviously an effort to delegitimize a duly-elected official you obviously despise.

Incidentally, did you make the same “qualification” about the Great Prevaricator’s 1992 election? Remember, he carried only 41% of the vote, with only about 50% voting. ‘Course, he got 100% of the White House. Just like Corey got 100% of the Chairmanship.