Riverside, NJ - Don’t Make Our Mistakes
For those who are unaware, Prince William County was not the first locality that FAIR influenced in adopting anti-immigrant ordinances. Before PWC, there was Riverside, NJ & Hazelton PA. Riverside, NJ rescinded their resolution because of the economic impact combined with the certainty of incurring significant costs for defending it against litigation. Hazelton, PA has been stricken down in court but is under appeal. This should send a very clear message to Supervisors - this is not a path we want to follow.
Don’t Make Our Mistakes:
Lessons from Riverside, New Jersey in the Costs of Attacking Immigrants
Riverside, New Jersey presents a cautionary tale of the devastating economic consequences of anti-immigration legislation. Come hear firsthand about the economic benefits that immigrants provide and what happens when a local community puts anti-immigration politics ahead of common sense.
Featuring:
David Verduin: Business owner and president of the Riverside, NJ Coalition of Business Owners and Landlords
Matthew T. Crosson, Esq.: President of the Long Island Association
Mayor David Nyce: Mayor of Greenport Village
Professor Mariano Torras, Ph.D: Author of The Economic Impact of the Hispanic Population on Long Island, New York
Moderated By:
Andrea Batista Schlesinger: Drum Major Institute for Public Policy
April 15th
6:00PM - 8:30PM
Touro College Law Center
225 Eastview Drive
Central Islip, NY 11722
Space is limited
Admission is free
Please RSVP by email to:
longislandwins@gmail.com
or by phone to 516.304.5642
Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.
I think it’s worthwhile to note that the Federal Gov’t does realize this and that is why they were trying to go down the path they did last year and why they haven’t done anything substantial to stop the flow of migrants. Unfortunately, rhetoric was ratcheted up too high for them to get anything done. Nonetheless, the path they were proposing looked NOTHING LIKE the path our local leaders decided to pursue. Just because the federal attempt at an overhaul didn’t succeed doesn’t mean it was the wrong way to go. It was exactly the right way to go and I still believe that the Federal government will address this and we need to voice support for it when it comes up again in an effort to stop the vocal MINORITY haters from taking control again.
Hey thanks guys! I’m the Blogger over at http://www.longislandwins.com and we appreciate you sharing this event with your readers. We’re really excited and the response has ben great! Just an FYI - we will be posting video of the event on YouTube in the next few days for all who want to see or reference it…I’ll keep you updated.
Either way…PWC is crippled because its a little to late to try to find a happy medium. PWC was once a small town then immigration took over and greed set in..More people more businesses..more businesses more money..more money comes even more greed..Now that ICE is on the scene there is less people..Less money..businesses are going to close..Houses are in forclosures..Common sense is this town grew to quick to fast and it took to long for intervention.
Oops and I need to add..The locals that once made up the small town had left..So now PWC is not only beaten and battered..Its crippled now.
Twinad- Just saw your post..I’m with ya..Your words are more eloquent than mine..but mean the same thing…
Prince William County and Manassas is fine and those that are in foreclosure probaly qualified in ways that was not the norm. Let’s come up with some percentages and see just who has been affected in this “Real Estate Correction”. The market will correct iself just like it did in the mid to late 90’s.
Welcome Angry!
Thank you Maam for the welcome.
People were already warning PWC about Riverside out the wazoo before the resolution was passed, but no one wanted to listen.
I would not go so far as to say PWC and Manassas are “fine” but the Real Estate problem is a NATIONAL one, not one endemic to the outer DC suburbs. The burbs of Cleveland, Detroit and other northern rust-belt cities are faring far worse in the mortgage meltdown and none of them are in the midst of an immigration connundrum. Fact - the real eastate problem is a national one, so stop pretending it’s a local one as a result of PWC’s immigration resolution.
Secondly, Angry Blackman has a very valid point - bad loans given to unqualified people. And in PWC’s case - it seems as if many mortgages were given to illegal residents so the mortgage brokers could make a sale. Anyone remember the WaPo article highlighting the plight of a Latino man who is illegal and was given a mortgage for a 300K townhouse 2-3 years ago and NOW cannot afford his payments on his landscapers wages? He’s sending in jingle mail… Who in their right mind would give someone like that a mortgage???
On my street alone we have had at least 5 foreclosures of homes that sold for above $500K to Latino families. One finally re-sold for a whopping $325K.
Now this doesn’t mean all Latinos are deadbeats and will walk from their mortgages. However it is telling that somebody sold these people a lemon loan and the illegal or Latino community (and note I did not cite them as the same) is paying the price. Why is no one looking at the Latino community itself for duping many of its own? Our neighbor Latino RE agents only deal with Latino clients. The people from whom they bought their home bought it via a Latino agent and agency…
Driving down our street several homes are for sale - Latino occupied homes selling via Latino agents and RE offices. Are all of them crooks and corrupt? No. However it seems as if quite a few WERE/ARE if we are having the problem we do now with foreclosures in PWC - foreclosures due to Latino families and illegals.
So, instead of getting into a frenzy of how the resolution is driving people out of PWC and causing the RE meltdown in our area, let’s look past the forest for the trees and concentrate on who sold these people the bad mortgages. They are a huge part, if not a cornerstone of why there is a mass-exodus of people from PWC due to foreclosures. And since immigrant communities favor doing business amongst their own, I’ll wager that there are plenty of mortgage brokers and RE agents who talked “their own” into signing into deals that they know would harm their customers down the line.
Angry Blackman, I have been wondering for a long time why you participate in a blog (i.e. the OTHER) created by the type of people who in a previous generation were forming societies to save their communities from blacks. Care to explain?
Welcome Angry. We need to hear your voice around here too.
ABM- Guess I should of explained in detail, yes the forclosure is nationwide, I was referring to the Vacant rentals in Manassas due to the Immigration “sweep” and now those rentals are in forclosure because the greedy landlords can’t find any tenants to pay their outrageous fees…maybe they ought to reduce the monthly rent to a more affordable price…But they wont…The have used the sweat money to buy more homes….and now they can’t afford the 2 mortgages…
To “Not me Bubba”: Blah blah…It is what it is…Like I said before..PWC is to late for intervention!
@ Just Cause:
What? PWC is too late for intervention? I do not follow what you mean.
Consequences for their actions IMHO!!! The people bought more home than they could realistically afford, whether it was from a Latino RE agent or agency or not. Many people are hit with the foreclosures, not just Hispanics or illegal aliens. Now IF the foreclosures were in PWC ONLY, I would say you have a valid point about the resolution. They are not and as ABM said, it is a correction similar to the dot com bust in 2000. How many businesses went out then? I think the resolution is working just fine and those businesses opposed to it are the types of businesses we do not need. They will not pay their fair share of the tax burden or collect it from their employees.
This is going to be tough for the first part, but once the self deportation is finished and the new fresh businesses come in, that wouldn’t have been here to begin with, we will see a decrease in funding required and better schools for our children. Once the illegal alien population has been reduced to a manageable number, things WILL get better.
/\/\3|)iç 64,
Very well said. Here is to hoping it is sooner rather than later.
“Consequences for their actions IMHO!!! The people bought more home than they could realistically afford, whether it was from a Latino RE agent or agency or not.”
Well, this is true, but in many cases where the homebuyers spoke no English and had to rely upon a translator and other parties to help them process their loans…fraud within their own community had to happen. It wouldn’t be the first time in history non-english-speaking immigrants were duped by members of their own ethnic/linguistic community. As we are seeing in the national financial publications, people who were financially illiterate or semi-illiterate were coerced into these creative financing schemes without being forewarned of what would happen when the rates would re-set. YOu’re right when you say this isn’t an isolated Latino community problem - it was nation-wide. However if we focus on the local aspect of it, the largest growth in housing in our community was of Latino or immigrant populations.
How some of them got mortgages with no stable employment, or low wages is beyond me. I knew I couldn’t afford a mortgage for 300K if I were the sole breadwinner on my salary - which is far higher than a landscaper laborer. Who convinced him HE could? And who pushed the paperwork through?
You want a guilty party for the foreclosure crisis? Look to the mortgage lenders, mortgage brokers and greedier than merde Real-estate rip-off agents.
Again..Here is my point…Some homes ( Townhouses and Condos) in PWC were purchased as 2nd homes for rental purposes..Those homes came with outrageous monthly rental fees that Most single families Couldnt afford, Majority of those homes were infact occupied by Immigrants (More than 1 family living in the residence in order to afford it) NOW since the sweep, those are the homes that are in forclosure, ones owned by Greedy landlords……Like I said, PWC grew to quick to fast and with that came more business ops..More ops more money, more money more greed…and now its coming to a hault..
Buba- Take a drive down 234, tell me what you see?
Just CAUSE,
So what you are saying is that if repeal the Resolution all of the illegals will come back. I can then buy a couple of foreclosed houses at a steal, jack up the rent and make a bunch of money. The illegals will no longer be able to BUY the houses and will have to rent from me. I could be a millionaire over night. REPEAL THE RESOLUTION and make me a millionaire BWAA HAA HAA !!!!!
Bubba Park- Nope..Your TOOOOOOO late…The opportunity has PASSSED YOU BUY (HA) but then again, if you had the opp. would you have stopped at one house? or 2? cause if you got GREEDY and now your TENANTS had to leave..Then YOU too would of been on the wagon of Forclosure….duhhh
Riverside, NJ is further along than we are and it’s sadly where we’re headed right now. Please spare us your canned rationalization as to how our economic woes have nothing to do with the arrival of FAIR and the anti-immigrant lobby. Explain Riverside first and then I’ll consider your Gospel Greg FAIR/talking points.
Interesting read on Riverside NJ via Google. Confederate flags were being flown with protestors yelling “Go Home”. Didn’t realize the rebel cause was in NJ. I will try to post some articles.
One good one from NYT.
1,000,000% RIGHT!!!!
EXACTLY and they are paying the consequences for their actions. I see nothing wrong with this. If I speed and I get a ticket, should you pay the extra insurance cost and court costs associated with it?
What tea leaves are you looking at? I would love for you to predict the future for me!!! Similar issues, but different times. I would love to see this without the housing and economy components thrown in and see where we would be.
/\/\3|)iç 64 ,
I was missing you
I am wondering in what way are these times different, exactly in what respects are they different from riverside?
I would add, that the economic and social backlash are THE reality of what happens when you approach immigration enforcement this way, on a local level.
I remember my mom always saying “fine, don’t listen, I am just trying to save you some heartache because I have been through this before”. Did I listen as a teenager, no, I wanted to learn for myself, the hardway. And you know what, my mom was almost always right(please don’t tell her I admitted this)! PWC is like an adolescent, needing to learn for itself, I just hope we do it before too much more damage is done.
Lisa Votino-Tarrant said on 14 Apr 2008 at 1:14 pm:
Hey thanks guys! I’m the Blogger over at http://www.longislandwins.com and we appreciate you sharing this event with your readers. We’re really excited and the response has ben great! Just an FYI - we will be posting video of the event on YouTube in the next few days for all who want to see or reference it…I’ll keep you updated.
THANKS LISA - SOUNDS LIKE THE STUDY MAY MAKE A MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION TO THE SAD THINGS GOING ON HERE…..
I MEANT TO SAY A MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION TO ADDRESSING SOME OF THE PROBLEMS HERE. I WOULD LIKE TO DETERMINE IF THERE IS A WAY TO DISTINGUISH THE ECONOMIC HARM DONE HERE SIMPLY AS A RESULT OF CONSTRUCTION EMPLOYMENT OPPTYS THAT HAVE LEFT VS. THE HARM CAUSED BY THE COUNTY’S ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT RESOLUTION.
Firedancer said on 14 Apr 2008 at 2:11 pm:
Angry Blackman, I have been wondering for a long time why you participate in a blog (i.e. the OTHER) created by the type of people who in a previous generation were forming societies to save their communities from blacks. Care to explain?
kenneth
I BELIEVE THE PEOPLE ON HERE - FOR THE MOST PART - ARE NOT THE SAME TYPES OF PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO SAVE THE COMMUNITY FROM BLACKS EARLIER ON (AS YOU PUT IT). WE ARE WORKING FOR JUSTICE, COMMONSENSE, REALITY,HUMANITY….TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES…..AS AN ASIDE MANY OF THE OTHER SIDE START FOAMING AT THE MOUTH WHEN WE COMPARE THIS ENVIRONMENT TO THAT OF THE 60\S…WELL, I LIVED THRU THAT AND BELIEVE THAT THE SAME ELEMENTS ARE IN BOTH. BACK THEN THEY PREACHED THAT THE LUNCH COUNTES BELONGED TO THEM AND THE SEGREGATED SCHOLLS JUST HAPPENED THAT WAY. TODAY THEY ARE HANING ON TO THEIR STATESMANLIKE ABILITIES TO SPELL ‘ILLEGAL’ DUHHH
The times today vs the Riverside times is the economic situation and housing foreclosures.
I am in the same boat, except I did tell my mom she was right.
Brownie points awarded accordingly as well 
I understand it is hard on people in their own countries, I have experienced it first hand for 18 months in the Philippines. However, why should those that have overstayed their visas, walked across the border or were smuggled in get the “free pass” to citizenship when some people, like my co-worker, who are waiting their turn in the line, may have to leave if they can not get a chance at the H1B visa lottery?? How is that fair and equitable for all? Why do they have to go through the expense of an attorney and such while those mentioned above can just be granted blanket citizenship. He is from Cambodia and he is frustrated at the situation with the illegal aliens. He has come here the right way and will leave when is visa expires. He can not renew his driver’s license if he does.
We need to remove the incentive to be here illegally. We have to remove all illegal aliens and we have to adjust the 14th Amendment IMMEDIATELY. Automatic citizenship is not what the 14th amendment was intentionally meant to provide in today’s sense!!
We will survive the economic and social backlash because the businesses that come into the area will hire law abiding citizens and pay FAIR wages to them no slave wages and exploit them.
Too much more damage is right, but I don’t think our views of the damage are the same in that respect. I would like to see it done before more damage is done to our school system that is forced to have overcrowded rooms and schools. Not having enough money in the budget, not because of the resolution, but because too many adults living in one house and not paying their fair share of property taxes. By having their babies here that will allow them to reap much more benefit than the average legal citizen can. The damage of our culture being eroded because of the lack of assimilation. The entitlements that are expected and granted because heaven forbid, we be racist against these poor people.
Time has come for us to make those who have entered through the back door aware that there are consequences for your actions and those consequences are not good ones. Deportation is the first step as well as removing incentives to stay. I am sorry if this means that people will have to leave, but they came here without permission and they can leave without it as well.
Consequences for their actions IMHO!!! The people bought more home than they could realistically afford, whether it was from a Latino RE agent or agency or not. Many people are hit with the foreclosures, not just Hispanics or illegal aliens. Now IF the foreclosures were in PWC ONLY, I would say you have a valid point about the resolution. They are not and as ABM said, it is a correction similar to the dot com bust in 2000. How many businesses went out then? I think the resolution is working just fine and those businesses opposed to it are the types of businesses we do not need. They will not pay their fair share of the tax burden or collect it from their employees.
This is going to be tough for the first part, but once the self deportation is finished and the new fresh businesses come in, that wouldn’t have been here to begin with, we will see a decrease in funding required and better schools for our children. Once the illegal alien population has been reduced to a manageable number, things WILL get better.
HEY 64 OR WHATVER YOUR NAME IS..\\ JUST WHT PART OF THE RESOLUTION DO YOU THINK\IS WORKING FINE AS YOU PUT IT (HOHOHOOHO|).\\\\\\\\\\\THE PART WHERE WE DENY ILLEGAL SENIORS ADMISSION TO OUR AGING CENTERS TO PLAY?| OR THE POLICE PART THAT STARTED IN EARLY MARCH AND IT IS COMMONLY KNOWN THT ALL BUT TWO ARRESTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE ANYWAY………THAT LEAVES THE BIGOTRY PART OF IT MY MAN!! THAT IS WORKING JUST FINE…….THANKS A BUNCH|!!
KENneth Reynolds,
I refuse to initiate any conversation with you until you remove all of the extra slashes and caps from your posts.
Medic 64,
I never got to finish my discussion about solutions. I made mention of the Affadavit of Support and you asked if that was an ‘exception’. The answer is no. It’s on top of the 5 years or the 4/2001 date. Same with the filing of tax returns, that is in addition to meeting the time requirement.
If it is an additional requirement, then I am all for it!! The support Affidavit would help ease the welfare drain.
Kenneth Reynolds 5:44
I was not referring to this blog. Angry Blackman appears regularly on bvbl, and it is that participation I am curious to understand, for the exact reasons you described.
/\/\3|)iç 64 ,
I do understand what you are saying, there is a sense of fairness that should coincide with our immigration policy. But I would say that overall it is a broken system. I am no expert, by any means, but if there are so many issue with people, willing to work, and yet being unable to do so documented, there is a problem. Even Greenspan sees immigration as a useful tool to start fixing our social security crisis. Haymarket has overcrowded schools, this IS NOT because of undocumented workers, this is because our county allowed too may houses to be built, without first demanding that basic infrastructure to support this rapid development be in place. They tried building their way out of crisis caused by too rapid of housing growth.
THere is no reasonable way this country is going to deport millions of people, it will not happen, not now, not ever. So, having accepted that fiscal and ethical reality, what do we do? Move on to viable solutions that actually can be implemented. On anti people have started talking about some of those solutions. Let’s keep doing that !
The problem I see with allowing illegals the opportunity for citizenship is that I will always know that many in their community came here the wrong way. That stigma will always be there. Knowing that, I would be less respectful since I feel that non-adherence to our laws is part of their culture for which they have been rewarded. I’m amazed that simply because the vast majority of these people are uneducated poor, that they are afforded so many breaks that I would never be allowed. Offenses such as driving without a license, fraud, identity theft and such would be dealt with swiftly if I were the offender. Yet with them, it’s as if our hands are tied when trying to prosecute them. I just don’t get it!
Today being TAX DAY, I was just thinking how complex and confusing tax preparation can be. I’m an educated person, and use a tax program, yet it still can be challenging. So tell me, how does an illegal who is uneducated, and doesn’t read English, attempt to file their taxes as you all suggest they do? That would really be something to see. I wonder if the same supportive people that helped them buy homes they can’t afford are now charging them to do their taxes? Hmmmmmmmmm?
Supervisors differ on resolution’s effects
http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/local/article/supervisors_differ_on_resolutions_effects/13801/
Elena
“Haymarket has overcrowded schools, this IS NOT because of undocumented workers, this is because our county allowed too may houses to be built” Yes, that is why Haymarket schools are overcrowded, and they also happen to be the whitest schools in the entire county with the lowest percentage of ESOL students.
On the other hand, Bennett, Sudley, Yorkshire, Sinclair and Westgate are also overcrowded, but not because of housing growth. These schools are in older neighborhoods with no new construction. They are overcrowded simply due to multiple family situations in the older neighborhoods.
You appear insensitive to what has happened in these older neighborhoods when you make statements like that from your large 10 acre estate with your kids in schools that for the most part, have few ESOL students and have not had the difficulties that some of these other people have.
Firedancer said on 14 Apr 2008 at 2:11 pm:
Angry Blackman, I have been wondering for a long time why you participate in a blog (i.e. the OTHER) created by the type of people who in a previous generation were forming societies to save their communities from blacks. Care to explain?
Firedancer,
In response to your question, are you sure that those who comment on “the other” site have participated in such activities? If so, when and where?
My reason for participating there is I grew up in Manassas and had grew frustrated at how the area had declined. No one was doing anything and then “Help Save Manassas” came about. Something had to be done or else we all would have continued to be affected by the illegal immigration problem.
SecondAlamo,
“Today being TAX DAY, I was just thinking how complex and confusing tax preparation can be. I’m an educated person, and use a tax program, yet it still can be challenging. So tell me, how does an illegal who is uneducated, and doesn’t read English, attempt to file their taxes as you all suggest they do? That would really be something to see. I wonder if the same supportive people that helped them buy homes they can’t afford are now charging them to do their taxes? Hmmmmmmmmm?”
The only thing more complex than the tax code is the immigration code. That in and of itself in context with your statement should explain a lot. It’s probably the same attorneys that have written both.
OMG! No one got my point! The reason PWC is such a sewer pit is because of GREED!
Now I’ll give you that the illegal aliens contributed…but they contributed to the birth of GREED in this county. Bottom line is the advantaged screwed the disadvantaged and because the fence riders couldn’t profit, they want their County back thus…”Help Save Manassas” was born…
“Even Greenspan sees immigration as a useful tool to start fixing our social security crisis.”
I wouldn’t be citing Greenspan as a man of wisdom, for he is the one who promoted ARMs just a few years back knowing fully-well that in doing so he would create an artificial, temporary support for the RE bubble.
Of all people to quote, don’t quote the very man who handed the american taxpayers’ money over to crooks and criminals…so HE could duck out and then make a profit.
Bubba- Who quoted “Greenspan”? I don’t get it?
I agree, the double standard is what aggravates me to the core. Why do they get a break for breaking the rules. We can only absorb so many people, this is why I suggested in Medic’s Country Reform that a certain number be deported and made to come back the right way. This means we are not totally rewarding those who broke the law and I feel is a compromise from deporting ALL of the illegal aliens.
http://www.eagledigitalsoftware.com/reform.html <– this one works
SecondAlamo said on 15 Apr 2008 at 6:06 am:
The problem I see with allowing illegals the opportunity for citizenship is that I will always know that many in their community came here the wrong way. That stigma will always be there. Knowing that, I would be less respectful since I feel that non-adherence to our laws is part of their culture for which they have been rewarded.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
“Less respectful” Doesnt the fact that they are Human beings justify the right for respect?
______________________________________________________________
Second Alamo Said:
I’m amazed that simply because the vast majority of these people are uneducated poor, that they are afforded so many breaks that I would never be allowed.
______________________________________________________________
20 years ago I too was denied these services because…I had a job that paid $8.50 an hr and according to the “services” I made to much money thus I was DENIED…BUT Illegal aliens wasnt the cause then?? So tell me….What was the cause then?
————————————————————–
“Now I’ll give you that the illegal aliens contributed…but they contributed to the birth of GREED in this county. Bottom line is the advantaged screwed the disadvantaged and because the fence riders couldn’t profit, they want their County back thus…”Help Save Manassas” was born…”
So illegals helped create greed? Please. Illegals have been the tools for greed for decades, and not unique to this area. They didn’t do anything new or contribute to anything new that hasn’t been done before.
Advantaged screwed disadvantaged - agreed. Be it from large corporate construction firms, to the Mamacita & Papacita Pupuseria who wanted a dishwasher. All proponents of cheap labor who exploited people they KNEW were desperate.
As for the fence riders - nonsense. After watching video of Mr. Leteicq (or however you spell his name), he arose out of a political era that praised religious dominionism, xenophobia and so-called “conservative morals and values” He is a dime a dozen and similar, if not identical types can be found all over the country. His movement arose during the apex of Bush insanity and will decline with them.
However, while his movement may come and go - or just remain in smaller numbers, many people in PWC WERE put off by the illegal immigration problem that affected our tax base, our schools and our community. They could have all been Polish and it still wouldn’t have mattered.
@ Just Cause
“Bubba- Who quoted “Greenspan”? I don’t get it?”
Elena. If you scroll back you will see it. 14 Apr. 11:38.
The cameras should have already been in the cruisers and a grant is available if they fill out the paperwork.
We do not have a black eye for making people obey the law. Businesses that are complaining the most are the ones that need the slave labor that illegal aliens provide. It is going to cost more in the beginning, but there is hope on the horizon and it will get cheaper as time goes by. The savings in school costs alone will help pay for most of it. Once the resolution has settled in, the school issue can be addressed. Why build more schools for areas with a higher concentration of illegal aliens when that money can go for the ares that need it worse? There is only so much pie and everyone can not have the same size slice. Sometimes, you have to be willing to accept a smaller sliver so when things get better, your piece will be the larger slice.
Illegals helped create greed by buying into the “American Dream” is what I’m saying and some ( I didnt say ALL) took advantage of the illegals lack of education thus businesses were booming and the profits were lining pockets. Rather anyone wants to admit it or not, Greed/Money is what is fueling this fire and now after it is said then done PWC has got the crap kicked out of it..This issue has been brewing for some years..Why all of a sudden are things being done “swiftly”? Why wasnt the illegal issue addressed a couple years ago when it started to get recognition?
“Less respectful” Doesnt the fact that they are Human beings justify the right for respect?
They are entitled to all basic human rights - medical care, food, housing.
However, do not confuse basic human rights with that of respect. Respect is earned. Entering a nation illegally, staying there to acquire employment at the expense of its citizens and breaking many laws to ensure their place isn’t respectful on their part. Why should they be entitled to such from the nationalized citizens and natural-born ones?
I don’t go to another country, break their laws and demand respect. The only thing I can do is demand basic human rights until such time I am escorted out of their nation - and that means food, shelter and medical care (if needed); and it is understood that those basic necessities are only temporary until such time I leave.
inon said on 15 Apr 2008 at 6:46 am:
inon,
My point is that you cannot blame all over crowding in schools on illegal immigrants. Are you telling me that there was only a housing boom in select parts of the county? I look around, and I see construction EVERYWHERE!
I have stated, more than one time, that I believe the federal government has a responsibility to help the localities most effected by the impacts of illegal immigration on schools and hospitals. However, I would also add, YOU don’t know, of those immigrants, who are documented and who are not. Additonally, throughout our American history, new immigrants HAVE ALWAYS lived in crowded conditions, it just use to be they were in urban areas as opposed to suburban area.
I am wondering, why do YOU think there was a sudden influx of so many people to PWC in the last fives years. Do you think it is just a coincidence that our insane approval of new houses in this most current real estate boom had anything to do with it? Did all these new people arrive because A) there was no work or B)because there was an overabundence of job opportunities. I pick answer B.
“Why wasnt the illegal issue addressed a couple years ago when it started to get recognition?”
Because a few years ago too many were still profiting off of the illegals and the county seat was raking in the cash from businesses who hired illegals. It would have been political suicide (as a delegate, representative, etc.) to go after the hand that was feeding the government. Now that the cash flow has turned into a trickle (thanks to the sub-prime debaucle, sprawl, decline of the US dollar and rising energy costs), the “government” is now in a position to listen to the people they have been ignoring who HAVE been complaining for the past few years.
I don’t think anyone here will be able to dispute with you on the fact that greed was/is a great motivator for the influx of illegals in PWC. ALL cheap-labor proponents. But what do you expect from a culture that has no problem with cheap labor, just so long as it is done overseas in sweatshops by people we never have to see? A little OT, I know…but when you stop and look, our “American Dream” is finalized by the sweat, hardship and toil of the weakest, and nobody gives a damn if THEY don’t have to see it. Hence why you heard very little from Fairfax and other surrounding counties who didn’t have the illegal influx like PWC. Out of sight, out of mind - so long as they had their landscaping, construction and back-room workers. Well the people (meaning legal citizens of the US) of PWC DID have enough. Now the news is reporting how the illegals are affecting people in MD and other surrounding counties because THEY now have to deal with it, and you know what? They don’t like it either.
Bubba- I’m not the one confusing human rights with respect.
Definition of respect: Have consideration, Show attention. I teach my Children that ALL human beings deserve respect. “Treat others as you want to be treated” is basically respect in my household.
Bubba said:
Basic Human rights- Medical care, food, housing..
REALLY??? then I was denied basic human rights 20 years ago and illegals was NOT the issue then. AS I stated before, I made $8.50 an hour and I was a single mom ( divorced) and had an apartment(no such things as Income controlled housing in this area then) and a Car.. I made enough to pay day care and enough for my apartment and electric.. but food..Well we ate oddle of noodles and mac and cheese for awhile and then there were months were I had to juggle the rent cause the car broke down blah blah blah and I went to talk to social services and there advice to me was to QUIT MY JOB and SELL MY CAR and then I could qualify for MEDICAL,HOUSING and FOOD STAMPS..Now Im sure Im not the first person they told this to but I didnt take there “advice” and today I am medium class according to Society’s standards..but don’t you think our System is broken? Isn’t Greed the factor for this?
Ooops and NOPE had NO MEDICAL cause I couldnt afford it then AND I was DENIED for any assistance.
SA,
I has been well documented that in the 20s’ when the immigration quotas started, many Italians and some Jewish from Russia came here illegally. It is estimated that close to a quarter million new immigrants cam here illegally annually. Al Capone made a business out of smuggling people. Both legal and illegal immigrants were stigmatized then.
I cannot imagine all the poeple in this country who you don’t respect just because they were breaking the law. They crossed the border illegally, they didn’t kill a person. shoplifted or rape.
“Definition of respect: Have consideration, Show attention. I teach my Children that ALL human beings deserve respect. “Treat others as you want to be treated” is basically respect in my household. ”
So then how have the illegals shown us respect? They have broken our laws, taken jobs from Americans, use the system to receive benefits YOU have been denied - you being the American Citizen…
Why then again do they “deserve respect” when they haven’t shown it for us themselves?
Respect is a two-way street.
They crossed the border illegally, they didn’t kill a person. shoplifted or rape.
Now hold off there a minute. Illegally entering a nation is no way to show respect of the people who inhabit it. It is snubbing that nation’s laws and citizens. How you measure that disrespect (whether it registers as disrespect or not to you) is an individual choice. To you it’s no biggie if they crossed the border illegally. To me it is. There is no right or wrong personal perspective in this case. However there is the law - and as a foreigner in a foreign land breaking the law isn’t respectful by any means.
And there have been cases of rape, shoplifting, drunken driving, mortgage fraud, forgery, etc. committed by illegals. As there have been those who have tried to live as quiet as a life as possible. But one thing they all have in common is that their presence here is a violation of US law - they know it and don’t care. Hardly a sign of respect.
“Ooops and NOPE had NO MEDICAL cause I couldnt afford it then AND I was DENIED for any assistance.”
Wait a minute - I think you are confusing your then inability to pay with a denial of any medical treatment whatsoever.
No one would have refused to treat you in a public hospital. You are guaranteed medical care. However your inability to pay for medical insurance didn’t mean no one would treat you in an emergency situation, or if you needed treatment and would have to pay out of pocket.
I will agree that the system we had then, as we have now, with corporate medicine (the insured vs. the uninsured) stinks to high hell. No one should have to go through that - poor or wealthy. Our health and treatment should not depend upon how much money we make and if we can afford coverage. The Australian system of nationalized medical care works quite well and would be a system under which I would happy to see America initiate. But I think you misunderstood what I meant when I stated medical care is a basic human right.
And if you look at the precipitous closing of hospitals in CA due to the influx of uninsured people - legal and illegal, overburdening a ssytem with people who cannot pay for their own care (or who won’t pay) doesn’t work.
Bubba,
My great aunt was smuggled in through Ellis in suitcase because she was sick and the family was afraid of being sent back. Life isn’t black and white Bubba. Walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before you judge so quickly. I break the law everytime I speed, I guess I don’t respect my country either then.
BUBBA- Yippeeeee!!! we agree….YES, yes…can’t we just agree that our system is soooo flawed and wounded and that the illegal immigration is just ” picking the scab” of our broken Government? thats the point I was trying to make.
corr: Ellis ISLAND
Elena: and you are correct as well.. Its not illegal immigration that is killing this Country…Its the Country killing itself..by ignoring what should of been dealt with long long time ago..a flawed system and a broken Government..all inspired and run off of…..greed!
Bubba,
My great aunt was smuggled in through Ellis in suitcase because she was sick and the family was afraid of being sent back. Life isn’t black and white Bubba. Walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before you judge so quickly. I break the law everytime I speed, I guess I don’t respect my country either then.
…
Are speeding laws national ones? Are rape, murder, forgery, financial fraud local ordinances? Best to be sure to compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges.
And today is a whole lot different than what life was like during the time of Ellis Island. If you don’t know the historical differences between then and now, nothing I can say will ever make sense to you.
And while your family’s story is heartwrenching, thank god your relative wasn’t infected with a highly virulent strain of virus (like say…Smallpox) that could have infected several burroughs of NYC. So while your family did what was best for them, they did so at the potential harm of how many others…
A story of hardship and success, yes - but not one that even comes close to demonstrating respect for the country they were entering, or the people they came in contact with.
So while my inability to disregard their lawlessness and impact on our society may seem a tad too judgemental to you, perhaps you should walk in my shoes and see what I see based on my background before you, yourself, cast stones.
Elena,
The achievements of your great aunt will never be appreciated by Bubba because she was a law breaker. In his/her way to see the world, once you break the law there is nothing you can do. You cannot be respected either.
You are lucky Bubba that you have never experienced the problems that will “push’ these people to come to this country. It is not as easy as saying that they have to stay there and fight the system. You either come here or die.
When you are speeding Bubba you are not showing respect for other people (not just citizens) who are sharing the road with you. It is not a national law but by breaking you can KILL A PERSON.
You are lucky Bubba that you have never experienced the problems that will “push’ these people to come to this country.”
What do you know what I have or have not experienced? And did I disregard their plight? Please show me where I have. Why should their problem, however, become my problem? I’ve seen many AMERICANS put out of work by these “poor, persecuted people” because they will work for less. So spare me your semantics line of BS.
“It is not as easy as saying that they have to stay there and fight the system. You either come here or die.”
And where did I ever say they had to stay and fight in tehir homelands? Again, please show me where I stated such. All I have said is they don’t deserve respect when they’re here illegally. If you don’t like that, that is your problem to deal with. And FYI - everyone dies. Even the poor illegals who come here. You think they’re immune from exploitation, violence and poverty once they arrive here? Need I remind you of the people who have died while HERE? Death happens to us all, the geography may vary.
And what achievements did Elena’s aunt do? All she has stated was that she was smuggled in by her family. A very dangerous move for a time when immunizations weren’t even administered to the masses!
“When you are speeding Bubba you are not showing respect for other people (not just citizens) who are sharing the road with you. It is not a national law but by breaking you can KILL A PERSON.”
Tell Elena - she’s the one who openly admits to speeding. I am fully aware of what speeding does and can do. I don’t speed and drive like a reckloose. I also don’t drive drunk. I also don’t drive without my license. Same cannot be said for many of the illegals of whom you admire so much and claim they “deserve” respect.
I didn’t say that I admire undocumented aliens, I say that I understand why they do it.
I didn’t say that you DUI.
I do understand that everybody dies so let those who deserve our respect to be the only people who should live.
About Elena’s great Aunt, I understand your point but you are using stereotypes to assume that because she was am immigrant she was bringing a deadly disease. It doesn’t matter what she accomplished in life because according to you she will never earn your respect because she broke the law (sorry Elena that we are using your Great Aunt experience to have this debate).
Hold up. We have had had record historically record low employment rates; especially PWC had better than full rates of employment. Now, if we take the position that we have been ‘inundated by illegals’ then one wonders what our labor market would have looked like without them? What’s better than full employment?
Bubba said: “Now hold off there a minute. Illegally entering a nation is no way to show respect of the people who inhabit it. It is snubbing that nation’s laws and citizens.”
Well, demonizing people who flee intolerable conditions that your country had a hand in creating and perpetuating is not showing respect either. Isn’t there a lot of “snubbing” other “nation’s laws and citizens” going on by the U.S.? Oops, am I unpatriotic for saying so? If it’s not right for others to do it to us, in your opinion, that it is definitely not right for us to do it to others.
“I didn’t say that I admire undocumented aliens, I say that I understand why they do it.”
I understand why they do it too. Many countries from which they have emigrated were swindled by their “leaders” with bad loans from the World Bank. The loans were made, the leaders fled and the people were left to pay the debt back from their already broken backs. Any hope of social funding they had disappeared overnight to pay back the WB…while the WB carved up their nations for the natural resources (via corporate conglomerates like Exxon, Monsanto, etc.) and let the people starve.
Yet I do not have to respect them for their choices that have harmed Americans. I saw the cities of the Great Lakes rust pre-NAFTA when American manufacturing jobs were sent below the border because people down there would work for $.16/hour.
I have read countless acccounts of how NOW corporate america wishes to now IMPORT this labor pool into the US and give them the jobs we so often hear, “Americans don’t want”…when in reality the companies wish to make more profit and trim the “fat” of their US labor force because…well…”We want too damn much money” to live in a house, with heat, electric, water and send our children to school with clothes on their back and dinner on the table after school.
They’re luring these people here with the “promise” of the American dream while screwing us over - and the illegals are more than happy to break whatever laws we have to keep them out and our jobs OURS so they can get their own.
I understand FAR more of where they’re coming from and why than what you give me credit for.
“About Elena’s great Aunt, I understand your point but you are using stereotypes to assume that because she was am immigrant she was bringing a deadly disease.”
Whoa there. I in no way said all illegals or foreigners carry disease. You are putting words in my mouth that I in no way expressed. During that time, however, and by her own admittance of her aunt being ill, it could have been a possibility that she could have brought something quite dangerous into the NYC area at that time. Since her great aunt lived and no pandemics came about from viral illness via Ellis Island, it’s safe to assume that everything worked out. Read up on the screening process for Ellis Island and WHY all arrivals were evaluated, and while you’re doing that read about the illnesses we couldn’t combat then as well as we do now and why there were rules in place to keep the ill out. Then you will understand why I stated what I did. But enough about that. Or were the screeners at Ellis Island also using stereotypes and trying to keep the foreigners down?
“It doesn’t matter what she accomplished in life because according to you she will never earn your respect because she broke the law (sorry Elena that we are using your Great Aunt experience to have this debate).”
I never stated she would NEVER earn my respect. Again, stop shoving words into my mouth. Her aunt was a child and placed there by her parents, she had about as much choice in the matter as a child who could fit into a suitcase would. I find more fault with her parents for placing her in such a precarious situation (see: suitcase) than I do her. But this discussion isn’t about her aunt or her family or Ellis Island. That was a different time and is not similar to today’s situation.
However, getting back to the point - I do not have respect for people who knowingly, willingly act in violation of the law for their own benefit while at the expense of many. I know that is a crazy concept, but it works for me. I also don’t have respect for the architects of the sub-prime meltdown. I also don’t have respect for people who knowingly recruited the illegals to work for them while at the expense of fellow Americans. Plenty of people for whom I lack respect in this mess. Could they ever regain my respect? Sure. They can go through the legal channels to right their wrongdoing and remedy the situation.
Funny, in your quibbling with me on who I have respect for (or don’t - and what a beeatch I am for that) not once have you even asked if I think every law is worthy of respect.
FEH.
Which brings it alll home that its not the illegal immigration that is at fault here but rather the GREED that followed.
I don’t have to ask you about what you think about the law… It is the ten Commandments, right?
“Hold up. We have had had record historically record low employment rates; especially PWC had better than full rates of employment. Now, if we take the position that we have been ‘inundated by illegals’ then one wonders what our labor market would have looked like without them? What’s better than full employment?”
What would our market have looked like? Well, wages for labor may have been higher and Americans may have been able to fill those jobs if the illegals weren’t there. Urban sprawl may have been slowed as well. But since corporates are not known for their benevolence - aside from mandatory benevolence in the guise of tax-deductible charity and PR ops - it was better for the bottom line to hire undocumented illegals (no payroll tax, no benefits, no medical, etc.) than Americans (unionized or not). This way they could secure more contracts and make more money by hiring people on the cheap. Hire a few and word will get back of opportunity to the illegals’ homeland. Consider it a HR Bonus. And the local legislatures weren’t complaining either with the influx of new residential and commercial tax monies coming in.
“What’s better than full employment?”
Depends. Is it full employment of skilled jobs or hourly jobs? Bush sure did say the economy was doing “GRRREAT!” these past few years and very little unemployment. But when you actually looked at the numbers the only growth sector was service job employment (low, hourly wages) and part-time work. NOT manufacturing work, however.
Remeber how “Uniquely American” it was for a single mother to hold 3 jobs to make ends meet?
Full employment *sounds* warm and fuzzy, but it doesn’t mean that it IS.
“I don’t have to ask you about what you think about the law… It is the ten Commandments, right?”
Again, you’re off by miles.
But it is amusing you try to put me in that camp when I specifically condemned Greg L. for his Xtian Dominionist views a few posts back. I needed that laugh! :>)
@ Firedancer
“Well, demonizing people who flee intolerable conditions that your country had a hand in creating and perpetuating is not showing respect either.”
Agreed. And I do my best part to not support those structures by selectively shopping at some places instead of others and attempting to purchase “made in the USA” whenever possible. I also don’t vote for cheap labor proponents. I do my best to monitor and limit my participation in the proliferation of such practices, and know that it is currently impossible to be completely free of it. I have no control over who picks the romaine lettuce I buy sent from CA, or wherever. I proudly refuse to shop at Wal Mart and we can mow our own lawn.
“Isn’t there a lot of “snubbing” other “nation’s laws and citizens” going on by the U.S.? Oops, am I unpatriotic for saying so?”
Yes there is. And no, you’re not unpatriotic for saying so. Last time I checked we still had freedom of speech and the right to question/criticize our government. Show me where I claimed the US is/was above criticism. You will not find a Rush Limpbaugh, Bill O’Liely or Anntichrist Coulter advocate here.
“If it’s not right for others to do it to us, in your opinion, that it is definitely not right for us to do it to others.”
Two wrongs don’t make a right - that is correct. However, I am not going to accept blame for others’ misdeeds and look the other way when others disregard - rather disrespect - our laws. And that goes for the illegals and the companies who employ them…and those who actively recruit them accross the border.
Again, I’m amused by the references that I be one of “the Others” when that is farthest from the truth.
Not Me, Bubba,
“And the local legislatures weren’t complaining either with the influx of new residential and commercial tax monies coming in.”
The US economy created more jobs then the number of legal immigrants it allowed entry. There has been a high demand for unskilled labor in this country and it’s not just the employers that have benefited. Are you using a high-speed internet connection? Who do you think picked up the shovels and dug the ditches in the 100 degree summer heat? Do you think only the utility companies benefited from this? No, our entire economy benefited by increased productivity. Your comment about increased taxes seems to reinforce this fact.
Don’t get me started on the urban sprawl argument. It’s pure scapegoating. Take Manassas as an example, its very inception can be tied to the growth of the federal government completely unrelated to ‘illegals.’
I agree wholeheartedly with your concern about the loss of manufacturing jobs but how you connect that with ‘illegals’ needs some clarification.
SA wrote:
Sorry, SA, but you own that one. Whether or not you choose to respect someone is YOUR choice. Are you really saying that you’ll always be less respectful to Hispanics in this county — documented or not — because you will always know that many in their communtiy came here the wrong way? Yeah, I guess so — because that’s exactly what you wrote.
Again, you own that one. You can let it go and move on, or you can let irrational bitterness toward the actions of same frame your perceptions of an entire race.
Sheriff JOE ARPAIO, a true AMERICAN Hero. Read this story and you will get motivated !
Maricopa County was spending approx. $18 million dollars a year on stray animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff Joe offered to take the department over, and the County Supervisors said okay.
The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated by prisoners. They feed and care for the strays. Every animal in his care is taken out and walked twice daily.
He now has prisoners who are experts in animal nutrition and behavior. They
give great classes for anyone who’d like to adopt an animal. He has literally
taken stray dogs off the street, given them to the care of prisoners, and had
them place in dog shows.
The best part?
His budget for the entire department is now under $3 million
Teresa and I adopted a Weimeraner from a Maricopa County shelter two years ago. He was neutered, and current on all shots, in great health, and even had a microchip inserted the day we got him. Cost us $78.
The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour for working, but most
would work for free, just to be out of their cells for the day. Most of his
budget is for utilities, building maintenance, etc. He pays the prisoners out of the fees collected for adopted animals.
I have long wondered when the rest of the country would take a look at the way he runs the jail system, and copy some of his ideas. He has a huge farm, donated to the county years ago, where inmates can work, and they grow most of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all the work and harvesting by hand. He has a pretty good sized hog farm, which provides meat, and fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree nursery, where prisoners work, and you can buy a living Christmas tree for $6 - $8 for the Holidays, and plant it later. We h ave six trees in our yard from the Prison.
Yup, he was reelected last year with 83% of the vote.
Now he’s in trouble with the ACLU again. He painted all his buses and vehicles with a mural, that has a special hotline phone number painted on it where you can call and report suspected illegal aliens. Immigrations and Custom Enforcement wasn’t doing enough in his eyes, so he had 40 deputies trained specifically for enforcing immigration laws, started up his hotline, and bought 4 new buses just for hauling folks back to the border. He’s kind of a “Git-R Dun” kind of Sheriff.
TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO, HE IS THE ARIZONA MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER. THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:
Sheriff Joe Arpaio (In Arizona) who created the “Tent City Jail”:
He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.
He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their weights Cut off all but “G” rated movies. He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county and city projects.
Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn’t get sued for
discrimination.
He took away cable TV Until he found out there was a Federal Court Order that
required cable TV for jails so he hooked up the cable TV again and only let
in The Disney Channel and The Weather Channel.
When asked why the weather channel he replied, So they will know how hot it’s gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.
He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.
When the inmates complained, he told them, “This isn’t The Ritz/Carlton…If you don’t like it, don’t come back.”
He bought Newt Gingrich’s lecture series on videotape that he pipes into the
jails.
When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he
replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of the inmates were in his jails in the first place.
More On The Arizona Sheriff:
With Temperatures Being Even Hotter Than Usual In Phoenix (116 Degrees Just Set A New Record), the Associated Press Reports:
About 2,000 Inmates Living In A Barbed-Wire- Surrounded Tent Encampment At The Maricopa County Jail Have Been Given Permission To Strip Down To Their Government-Issued Pink Boxer Shorts.
On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees inside the week before.
Many Were Also Swathed In Wet, Pink Towels As Sweat Collected On Their Chests and Dripped Down To Their PINK SOCKS.
“It feels like we are in a furnace,” Said James Zanzot, An Inmate Who Has
Lived In The Tents for 1 year. “It’s inhumane.”
Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long ago
started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not
one bit sympathetic.
He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates: “Its 120 Degrees In Iraq
And Our Soldiers Are Living In Tents Too, And They Have To Wear Full Battle Gear, But They Didn’t Commit Any Crimes, So Shut Your Damned Mouths!”
Way To Go, Sheriff!
Maybe if all prisons were like this one there would be a lot less crime and/or
repeat offenders. Criminals should be punished for their crimes - not live in
luxury until it’s time for their parole, only to go out and commit another
crime so they can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things
taxpayers can’t afford to have for themselves.
Rebel,
Just had to get that Dem bashing in there, huh? Because every problem we’re facing in the country is because of those damn liberals (or libertards, as you folks like to call us).
The rest of your post may have some merit, but the Dem bashing part kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Since it was clearly edited for posting here, I suppose you could have editet that part, but you chose not to.
Oh…and welcome.
Apples and oranges I am afraid Elena. Your speeding doesn’t cost anybody anything but yourself. Illegal aliens cost all tax payers something whether it is paying for education or entitlements they have gained from having a child here.
===============================
Not Me, Bubba,
You and I are on the same page!!
===============================
Just Cause,
Show how greed has contributed, you keep saying it does, but I do not see any examples. Unless of course you mean those employers who hire illegal aliens and pay them under the table. But wait, they pay taxes according to some here. Doesn’t that offset the greed factor then?
“There has been a high demand for unskilled labor in this country and it’s not just the employers that have benefited.”
You are correct. What I should have said instead of benefited is profited.
How is citing urban sprawl scapegoating? Plenty of people HAD to have their McMansions at any cost and moved further and further out to get them and they didn’t care who built them, just so long as they got their add-on sunroom and dual climate control.
“I agree wholeheartedly with your concern about the loss of manufacturing jobs but how you connect that with ‘illegals’ needs some clarification.”
I’ll concede that it was poor structuring on my part to corellate the loss of manufacturing with illegals. When I re-read what I wrote, I saw the confusion I created in saying that. But let me expand on what I meant to say…
In the 80s we sent our manufacturing jobs overseas - be it to Asia or to Latin America. I remember the Trico plants closing in my hometown and the jobs going south of the border to Mexico because there they would work for $.16/hour. Yes, if you bought Trico wiper blades in the 1980s your purchase went to pay for foreign labor at the expense of an American. The evisceration of our manufacturing base began in St. Ronnie Raygun’s presidency and continued through to today. The cheap labor proponents got their foothold then. Now fast forward to NAFTA. More and more manufacturing jobs leave the US, yet at the same time our service economy jobs begin to lose ground to illegal aliens - to replace an American workforce for jobs that CANNOT be exported. Look at how the meat and agri-businesses underminded their American work forces (be they unionized or not) and began replacing them with illegal laborers from Latin & S. America. There are radio and print campaigns south of our border advertising to these people to come accross and work in Meat plant X in Nebraska. The South, home of poultry processing, has pushed out its traditional african american labor force and replaced them with illegal aliens from south of our border. I believe 60 minutes or PBS did a special on this.
In summation, Export the manufacturing jobs, import a cheap labor pool to replace American workers of the service industry (work we cannot export) who demand too much pay (AKA: A Living wage) and voila - here we are. I understand they are coming from hardship and deplorable conditions. However, we need to think about our economic survival too and that of our future children.
With Mexico’s Pemex oil fields past peak and a lack of national income from the sale of that oil, expect things to get worse. Couple that with the fact our dollar is sinking, energy prices are skyrocketing (Another record today for oil - $113/barrel, peak anyone?) and our economy has been hit with one of the worst financial crises since the Great Depression, and then that pesky “war” in Iraq - we cannot afford to take them in. We no longer have the manufacturing jobs to support our workers. We’re told “Americans don’t want to do x jobs” so a foreign workforce does them for us inside our own borders. So now working-class Americans must compete with an illegal labor pool for survival, a pool of people who will take jobs for abyssmally LOW wages. When will people say, “enough?”
Not only do they take them for lower wages, but also get them without the payment of taxes which supports the Gov’t
RebelReggie:
Replacing an illegal labor force for an imprisoned one solves no problems. At least the illegals can choose to work or not. They do have free will. An incarcerated work force is forced to provide labor for an “employer” that is no better than a slave laborer. Have them make license plates and collect garbage along the highway, sure…but when you start outsourcing their labor to private corporations via the penal system you’re advocating slave labor. Hardly a solution - and then the state is encouraged to incarcerate more people to boost its profit margins.
Let’s not move from cheap labor proponents to slave labor proponents. Remember, you could always become one of the “workers” if you have broken a law, regardless of how small.
Arbeit macht Frei nicht.
/\/\3|)iç 64 said on 15 Apr 2008 at 2:27 pm:
This is where you and I disagree Medic. I believe the other research, that says undocumented workers are net gain, at very very worst, a net zero gain. However, once you factor in the expense of mass deportation, you will immediately see a severe net loss to illegal immigraton. I am not sure why people refuse to look at the two towns that have gone before us, both having influence from FAIR. The outcomes were not positive to their social fabric or the economic fabric. Look at PWC, our picture isn’t looking to rosy either and we were already suffering the beginnings of a recession before the resolution took effect.
Medic,
I will not support mass deporation of mixed status families, especially those with children. How many children are you willing to foster? Do you personally know children who are in this circumstance?
I know when I was a middle school counselor, I had kids that may have been undocumented themselves or their parents were undocumented. I treated them all the same. I have incredible real stories of great kids. Like one boy, he was one of mine for two years(7th and 8th grade), and I believe his parents may have been undocumented. His teacher and me told him that if he did well in school and stayed out of trouble, he could pick any fun reward within reason….bowling, fancy lunch, movie, whatever. Do you know what this child picked? A trip to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. He could have picked any brainless fun activity, he chose that. He was an exceptional child and I was lucky to have known him. Or how about this, another 8th grade girl, she asked me once “Miss S, how do you know what the truth is?” She went on to tell me that at one point in her life she had believed this certain truth, but now, after learning more, she believed a different truth. She wanted to know, how can you trust what you believe is truth, if it can change sometime in the future. What an amazing girl, I also was not sure of her mom’s status, but she worked, just like the other boys mom, and they were great parents and great kids.
p.s. I just want to clarify, I am not a speed racer, never more than 10 mph, my son always tell me if I am over the speed limit, even slightly!
Elena said on 15 Apr 2008 at 3:21 pm:
Medic’s Country Reform
This is a solution I am proposing. It deports some but not all of the illegal aliens. Those not here for 5 or 7 years, that part is still in debate, will be removed whether they have children or not. No exceptions!! They will make their way back to their home country and come back legally. There has to be consequences for the actions of all including the employers. I know it is hard for people to put children through that, but sometimes, tough times call for tough measures and not everything in life is a bowl of cherries!!! We can not save them all, we have to do the most good for the highest number of people. We can no longer absorb all of those here currently. There has to be a compromise.
O.K., I see the compromise now. Do you know the starfish parable?
The Parable of the Starfish:
“One morning an elderly man was walking on a nearly deserted beach. He came upon a boy surrounded by thousands and thousands of starfish. As eagerly as he could, the youngster was picking them up and throwing them back into the ocean.
Puzzled, the older man looked at the young boy and asked, “Little boy, what are you doing?”
The youth responded without looking up, “I’m trying to save these starfish, sir.”
The old man chuckled aloud, and queried, “Son, there are thousands of starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?”
Holding a starfish in his hand, the boy turned to the man and, gently tossing the starfish into the water, said, “It will make a difference to that one!”
(source unknown)”
It is hard on some already here, but there has to be some consequences for those who came here illegally. I need to add that those who have been here longer than 5 years have to prove they have been paying taxes or they go back as well. Since those who were paying taxes through their ITIN’s, they have tried to do the right thing and assimilate to the US. This is going to have a positive consequence. Those who have not, get the negative one. There are plenty of opportunities for them to stay if they have been doing the right thing. That right thing is helping pay their fair share.
Medic- Your post above is the “exception to the rule” Remember awhile back there was a person who’s husband was undocumented ( Visa Expired) and he had his own