AntiBVBL

Dear Admin,
Once again, thank you for providing the format!

I don’t know who you think you are but I promise you this – You will RUE the day that you crossed me. All of you communists, atheists, left-wing, illegal alien apologists, anarchists and terrorists are nothing but garbage in our great country! None of you deserve to be called Americans. Your only desire is to make this country into a third world piece of trash and you are succeeding. If it continues, mark my words – there will a revolution by all law-abiding citizens. So watch what you do and what you say because I’m everywhere and I know more than all of you combined. Just wait until my lawyers get ahold of you, you will be thrown into a dungeon and will never see the light of day which will be a perfect place for you bottom feeders.

typical gregl (but im glad its not me thats the blog admin) gregl you are one of the nastiest, most vindictive, sobs around. do us all a favor and go release some testosterone.

Fake Greg.

was that really Greg L. on that post??

Thanks for providing another forum for PWC/Manassas politics.

I, too, became tired of seeing my comments disappear. Sometimes something as simple as a Wizard of Oz ditty sent Greg and Bats over the rainbow’s edge. Sigh…

I had to find an alternative outlet in the MJM and WaPo comments sections, as well as 9500liberty.

Good to see some familiar faces.

The real Greg is way too smart. He wouldn’t come on someone else’s blog and talk like that, I do not think.

I really wish people would not impersonate others here. It puts this blog master in a difficult position. Many folks are here because they want to be able to speak freely without having comments cut or themselves cut. Impersonators endanger free speech.

Anything personal in nature should be viewed with healthy skepticism. I would caution you MH not to confuse smart with manipulative!

All anyone needs to know about THE OTHER is captured nicely for all eternity on that video.

I have to say that this blog is just another example of the decline of public debate in our country. All of the local blogs (NLS, Raising Kaine, BVBL and this one) have reduced public discourse to shrill name calling. People do have a right to their opinions, no doubt, but this blog is the offspring of an equally ugly blog. Most of all seem to think that you have staked out some moral highground. IMHO, nothing could be further from the truth. You are no better than Greg and those who comment on his blog. As a matter of fact, most of you are former commenters on his blog, if I am not mistaken.
Some friendly advice, most of you need to grow up. You will not sway the greater opinion by resorting to the same ugly tactics and methods used on the blog you disparage here.

Joe,
Exactly what do you mean “by resorting to the same ugly tactics and methods used on the bolg to disparage you here”. Personally, I have no problem calling a spade a spade. As far as public debate goes, I would love to have one on one dialogue, but who will be the moderator? I have a diffcult time debating with people who have reduced an entire population to nouns and adjectives. There is a middle ground, and several people here have tried talking about what that middle ground would like when it comes to dealing with this very complex issue. I would welcome your entry into the discussion. Right now, all we have is a Board willing to waste millions upon millions dollars for an unrearched resolution with no subsequent criteria to judge its effectiveness. I have a right to know to know the human and fiscal toll this resolution will have on my community and my wallet. If that means I need to “grow up” then I welcome that new found maturity.

corr: “unresearched”

Joe Enders,

Please give me an example of the regulars on this blog getting into shrill name calling and ugly tactics. Perhaps I have overlooked them.

I want to step up and admit I called GL a “nut.” I would also like to explain that this is the only word I could think of to describe his erratic behavior, his frightening advocacy of hatred, his rhetoric, etc.

Look, we all do the name calling thing at one time or another. But there are degrees. If GL called some of us “Moonbats” and just moved on, we might be annoyed but we’d get over it. It’s like me being called a “bleeding heart liberal.” I know I’m not that, and it’s annoying, but WHAT-EVA.

However, when GL and company start saying things like ‘Democrats are mentally ill, have gender identity problems, have issues,’ etc. disparaging and ridiculing a variety of populations including the vulnerable–in addition to his castigation of minorities–then we have a problem.

So I am fessing up to calling GL a nutcase. He can call me a Moonbat if he wants(I believe he already has, and some of his other postings I am sure were directed at me and others here). But Moonbats are not scary, intimidating people who have connections with hate groups. That has nothing to do with feeling morally superior. It has to do with security and safety issues.

I would suggest that you go back and read some of the comments regarding Greg and you will know exactly what I am talking about. While I frequently disagree with his positions, I would not classify him as “crazy” and “nuts”. I disagree with his opinion of Paul Ebert as an example. I have spoken to him on a couple of occasions and he is quite sane. I am also talking about those posts regarding Steve Thomas and his wife. I have spoken with him numerous times. He is no Nazi and isn’t trying to round people up and throw them in to camps.

I disagree with Greg’s decision to ban people from his blog, if it was for simply disageeing with him. I believe that you should be prepared to defend your positions with facts and rational debate. Silencing someone only works for the moment. Defeat their arguments and you silence them for ever. Even better yet, convince them of the truth and you might even win them over to your side.

I see people who are against the PWC resolution due to the cost. I see people who are against it because they beleive that localities shouldn’t do a job that the Feds have failed to do. I have to ask this question: Who among you thinks that an illegal immigrant who commits a crime should be deported? I for one do. I supported implementing 287G at the ADC. I think it is a good idea. If someone has done something bad enough to get locked up, they should have their immigration status checked. From what I can tell so far, there have been good results. I am going to withhold judgement on the individual police forces doing this, until we start to get some data back. I think that Deane is inflating the projected costs due to his unwillingness to enact the 287g portion of the resolution. I don’t think PWC should be conducting workplace raids, or knocking on doors and asking for documentation. This goes way beyond normal police duties.

I do believe that all of the denial of services talk was election year grandstanding and will have little impact on the issue.

Joe, I’d be scared to talk to GL. His videos, his connections with hate groups, his rhetoric, the way he posts people’s personal information on his website, cyber-stalks etc. mark a person who is not well. That he has a group of followers is even scarier. I’m not a professional, but I can tell you from listening to his statements–the way he contradicts himself and changes his entire demeanor and stance–there’s something wrong with him. It might not come out in the few conversations you have had, but it’s there. I am thinking part of his “censoring” is an attempt to cover himself. Really, why would he block people with no explanation if he wasn’t trying to hide something?

I don’t know anything about Steve Thomas or his wife. I do know our County Attorney should never have let this stuff get through (if he even has any authority, which I don’t think he does, really).

I totally agree the criminals need to be deported. Some people want them to serve time here, but I think that just costs us money. We don’t NEED any more criminals. I don’t think Deane inflated the costs at all. Think of how much time and money they already had to spend on training. And transport and going to people’s houses and questioning people. And the paperwork! My God, I bet it would cost a million dollars in labor just to process the freaking paperwork! And this will continue because the police department will want/need to cover its butt from accusations of racial profiling (which are already piling up).

I don’t think cops should have to do this stuff. This is a FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY, as you said. It puts way too much on the cops, the department, and the county. The liability and risk are absurd! No County Attorney would recommend such risk. It amazes me it’s come this far and no one has stopped it. It really does.

Joe,
I invite you to look back at discussion between Second Alamno and myself. We both agreed on three steps to deal with illegal immigration. All encompassed a path to earned citizenship, but we came to an agreement from very differing perspectives.

However, I would disagree with your assesemnt of “doing something bad enough to get locked up” as the conduit to status verification. People aren’t getting locked up on serious offenses and then having their status checked. They are getting pulled over for minor traffic infractions and having to prove their status. There are many stories that will attest to the fact that this is NOT about violent criminals being deported. This resolution is meant to scare people away and if they aren’t scared enough to leave, they will live their lives vulnerable to the “elements”.

I have posted before, that anyone with a modicum of gang knowldege recognizes, that if you make the police the “bad” guys that will check your immigration status, you will have an already reluctant population even more reticent to trust the police.

Joe, Do you think that video clip of Greg in the thread below is sane? Do you think it’s sane to be so obsessed with Communists, anarchists, socialists, as if there were any possibility of them taking over this country? For example, do you think his endless post about that anarchist group the other day is the mark of a sane person, or a delusional rant by someone who fancies himself engaged in a war against some kind of conspiracy? (So he’s battling for the American way, but that doesn’t include freedom of speech?) Did you read Independent Thinker’s description in another thread of the Criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

I believe it is vital to speak out against social bullies, so that history doesn’t repeat itself.

Independent Thinker,

I would suggest that you contact the ADC and FOIA the charges that those deported have had on them. Also, the MOA (not part of the PWC resolution) that was signed between the ADC and ICE would only allow for those who had committed serious felonies to be deported. The MOA determines what convictions warrant deportation. ICE would only take those actually covicted, not awaiting trial. The PWC agreement just went into effect today, so I will believe that all of those “stories” of people being deported for minor offenses are just that, “stories”.

Firedancer,

Making the issues about the people advocating for and against will never solve anything. This is what I am talking about. You characterize Greg and HSM as a bunch of neo-fascists. Commentors on bvbl characterize Mexicans without borders as communist revolutionaries. I will tell you, there’s a lot more evidence to support the latter, than there is the former. When anarchist and socialist organizations show up in support of Mexicans Without Borders at rallies and such, it doesn’t help their public image one bit. I have yet to see the skinheads or KKK show up and speak at citizens time in support of HSM.

I think that there are those here who want a rational debate about the issues, and the rest are more concerned with defeating Greg the man, and not the issues that he advocates. Next time you post, hold off on hitting the “submit button”. Read your post again. Is the psot about Greg, or about the issue?

Joe Enders – the age old question, after watching that video would you let your daughter date him? I am not interested in “defeating him the man”, I am interested in undoing the damage that has been done to PWC because of his groups intolerant view of the illegal immigration situation and potentional solutions. I understand there are intolerant viewpoints on the other side as well. Neither is good for the community.

Memorandum of Agreement.

Admin,

The MOA is the “Memorandum of Agreement” that must be in place before ICE will take people under the 287g program. It spells out exactly what a persn must be convicted of, before a deporation detainer will be issued by ICE. It also spells out exactly how many will be taken each month, and my understanding is this is about 80 under the ADC MOA. I haven’t heard anything about “bent plates”, but admittedly, I haven’t investigated it either. Considering that under state law, an officer is required to issue a summons for violations such as this, I would again have to classify the bent plate accounts as suspect.

Juturna,

Editing can be a dubious thing. Since I don’t beleive your question about who I would let my daughter date has anything to do with the debate, I’ll go ahead and pass on that one. I will say that I have met the man and spoken with him. I may not agree with everything that he says, but I don’t think him evil or unbalenced as many depict him here. I am not here to defend him either. I just don’t think that anything will be acomplished by name-calling.

Joe, you wrote the resolution “would only allow for those who had committed serious felonies to be deported.” But that’s not happening. I have spoken with and listened to an immigration lawyer who has attested to that. In fact what is happening is people are getting pulled over for minor infractions, being interrogated, and being put in jail to await deportation. These are NOT criminals in jail. They are people missing paperwork.

According to this same lawyer, there are 400 people in jail right now awaiting deportation. We have had to use other county’s jails because our own are too full.

As to the KKK and skinheads, yes they have aligned themselves with groups related to HSM. GL and Co. will deny it–but what he said after was even more important: he didn’t NEED the KKK to accomplish what he wanted. In other words, he thinks he is the King and he KNOWS he has enough backing to do whatever he wants. Why? Because groups like his have FAIR. They have Corey Stewart and John Stirrup in their pockets. They have people who support organized and legalized harassment and discrimination.

What they do NOT have is support from people who want to think this thing through and do the right thing. No matter what you feel about illegal immigration, this resolution has not been and never will be the right thing.

Joe,
To allow someone like Greg to go unchallenged is dangerous. To allow someone like Greg not be properly named for his eroneous thought process is dangerous. You should watch his logic unfold in the video that admin posted here. His pretend empathy “send them back with love” makes me ill, ill, ill. Yes, send HIS children back to poverty and no future and see what how he responds to THAT alternate future for his family.

Doesn’t it bother you at all, the idea of the county needing more funds for DSS to foster children taken from their parents? Let me ask you, will YOU be taking these children in? Will Greg take these children in? Who will provide the mental health counseling for these kids, having suffered through such an ordeal?

Joe, my particular post was about Greg the man, as he appears to be in public. There are two issues here: 1) the need for a civil discussion about immigration, which doesn’t happen on bvbl, and 2) the need to speak up against the tactics of the person who has fancied himself the leader of the anti-immigrant movement. Doesn’t much of politics also center around dissecting the leaders’ personalities and motivations?…happening right now with the Presidential candidates, for example. The public also doesn’t know the leaders as people; what we are dissecting are their public images and statements. Greg could be the sweetest, kindest, sanest man in person.

I am an advocate for immigrants, but I have not agreed with the tactics employed by Mexicans Without Borders. The problem is that there are not enough long-time Latino civic activists in PWC that have the political experience and grass-roots base to support change from within the system. The community is too new. MWB has stepped in to fill the void. I may not agree with their “in your face” wild tactics, but that appears to be all there is at this time.

I admit it, though, because of my anger over the treatment of latinos, it is difficult for me to have a civil discussion about immigration, certainly not with the likes of bvbl.

I became a poster at BVBL because I thought it important to offer an alternative view. I felt the resolution was quickly passed without cost/benefit analysis and without a true public hearing (or two or three – I don’t count Citizens’ Time as a public hearing). I grew up in the 50s/60s South and the vitriolic rhetoric and ease of defining and denigrating the “other” was just too familiar and disgusting not to comment.

I think the resolution is a waste of funds and won’t solve the problems that plague the neighborhoods mentioned in BVBL. Most PWC residents aren’t going to encounter a criminal who will end up deported by ICE or an immigration judge. The occasional rapist, murderer, thief, etc. are just that…not the norm and rare. 7-11 will not be cleared of loiterers unless 7-11 decides to pursue trespassing charges. Most people will only be impacted by “illegal immigrants” – and the BVBL crew must have x-ray vision to determine someone’s status – if their neighborhood has a lot of overcrowded housing, untagged cars, or junk in the yard and those are things that will be taken care of by Neighborhood Services, not the police. And the issue of overcrowding is not one without legal ramifications either.

I can support deportation after a felon serves his/her jail time if the conviction is something that ICE routinely supports…not some flim-flam traffic stop or driving in the rain without headlights being on… IOW, something significant and not something designed to rid the area of an ethnic group. I think the “police” portion of our infamous resolution should go to the 287g program at the ADC instead of spending the proposed amount – and obscene in a recession – on the PWC police department.

Afterall, we voted to spend our bond money on parks, libraries, and roads. So far, the citizens of this county have yet to vote on immigration issues. Instead, some vocal and computer literate people – mainly from a few low/middle income neighborhoods – have bombarded the BOCS with their opinions to the detriment of everyone else.

As far as the argument about saving money at hospitals and schools if immigrants leave…how does this savings compare with the millions of dollars we’re being asked to spend for the police portion of the resolution?

Welcome Censored,
I couldn’t agree with you analysis more! Two years, two public hearings, and multiple citizen surveys and we got a whole bunch of nothing in new parks and opens space, just a shell game to make citizens think the Board actually improved the standard. Illegal immigration….. no research, no citizen survey, no public hearing, and we end up with a NIGHTMARE that will have ramifications to this county we have only just begun to see.

“The real Greg is way too smart. He wouldn’t come on someone else’s blog and talk like that, I do not think.”

From what I know of him, I’m not so sure about that…

Censored, I am glad to see you here. I wondered where you had gone.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I have created an email to go with my antibvbl persona.

moon.howler07@yahoo.com

Doug,

I hope I am right and you are wrong. Notice I didn’t place a bet;)

Seriously, I believe he is a talented, intelligent man. I am just sorry that so much of his energy is spent on politics so divergent from my own and on such dramatic problem-solving techniques.

And if he catches hell from people here, it is of his own doing.

We have to understand that the political dialogue between organizations like MWB and people who don’t understand Spanish is a real problem. Look at the discussion I have had with Guadelupe Hildago. Their interpretation of “storm” is NOT the same as ours!

I have a friend who has often translated for me, and believe me, he comes back with a translation sometimes and I say, “HUH?” I think in some ways (correct me if I am wrong here) Mexican, Central American, and South American Spanish is a lot more poetic than ours. The language includes more metaphorical uses than we are accustomed to (I say this because I write poetry and have looked at translations). So we interpret everything they say literally. I can tell you this is dangerous, because I’ve had people read MY poetry literally–every word of it. If you do this, you are in for a major miscommunication.

As to the chanting and so on, it’s cultural. It’s a motivator, just like MLK’s impassioned speeches to the African Americans who NEEDED uplifting delivery. If you look at the African American Gospel tradition, you see this as well. What do you think all those “AMENS!” are about anyway?? It’s HOPE. Same thing with the Mexicans.

I’ve also had Spanish speaking friends who come off abrupt in English. You kind of have to hang around them before you can understand that it’s not intimidating at all. Heck…I can be abrupt myself! Ha ha ha. And look at New Yorkers (from the city). Are THEY not “in your face”?

The people who are really blindly against the immigrants are people who have not lived with different cultures, who aren’t real “city people” and who don’t understand the differences and similarities between all of us. And some of them are just plain hateful and prejudice.

I agree with the above, KG. One thing, though. I don’t believe “Guadalupe Hidalgo” is legitimate, and I don’t take those postings seriously.

Thank goodness, neither do I. There were far too many inconsistancies for me in speech patterns and verbiage. Don’t want too much group censorship here about what we think about certain people; if it’s for our own or the community’s own good we should feel free to speak up.

I agree with Firedancer about guadelupe, totally not NOT credible.

I haven’t seen GH recently? Since the Thomas issue?

Moon-howler, I was glad to see an alternative site to discuss local politics. During my self-imposed exile I found it hard to sit on my fingers and did have to fire off a few comments to the WaPo. Ha ha.

I expect to see a couple Special Ops and provocateurs pop up here. Know your enemy…lol.

I agree about GH. Not for real, for the reasons expressed by Juturna. GH is playing games. Shrug.

Censored, yea, I had to sit on mine at times also.